Free will and omniscience

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by Halfcentaur

When it comes to what Avalon is saying in this thread's OP, I would think a good analogy in support of his version of free will would be that if you could somehow go back in time before someone chooses something, and you know what they are choosing, they would still be freely choosing.

No they wouldn't.

In order for the choice to be free and legitimate, then the foreseen future even would need to be malleable. If there is ONE future outcome to a choice that cannot be altered then there is no real choice. If someone knows you will choose X you cannot choose not X. It's fairly simple.

You may think you have the choice, you may decide on your own and weigh up the pros and cons, but that's no more than an illusion. No matter how long you take to decide, you WILL do X. Any other answer is impossible, and thus there is no choice.

[HansMustermann]

Let's look at some practical examples from the bible itself. And, hey, they must be literally true, right?

John 9 tells us about Jesus meeting a guy blind from birth, and apparently, according to Jesus, he's not blind as punishment for some sin, his or his parents, but basically so Jesus can do a miracle on him.

Now consider all the ways that free will can nix that encounter, since we're talking an adult there. At any point in his past, he could have taken a decision that would result in his not being there for Jesus to do a miracle. E.g., he decides to kill himself, because, frankly, being blind from birth sucks. He or his parents could decide to move to another town. He could at some point decide to eat food X instead of Y, and die of some food poisoning or of stuff like a stroke if it's food contaminated with ergot.He could decide to go beg on some other street. He could decide to say something stupid and get himself stoned. Etc.

Heck, even starting at the point where Jesus enters the scene, he could defend himself against someone who, for all he knows, is a crazy guy trying to put mud in his eyes. He could decide to go home and wash instead of going to the pool Jesus told him to, because, hey, it's relatively far away and down some steps, and he's blind. He could even take a wrong step, fall and crack his head, so there's be no completing the miracle. Etc.

For God to have planned that a couple of decades in advance, the blind guy must have no real choice but to be there and do exactly what he's told.

[AvalonXQ]

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

For God to have planned that a couple of decades in advance, the blind guy must have no real choice but to be there and do exactly what he's told.

Or... the blind guy had every choice, and God knew he would end up there anyway. Just like I would if I came from the future.

[AvalonXQ]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

No they wouldn't.

Well, if you insist that even a future time traveller's knowledge, having no affect on the scenario whatsoever, would negate free will, I have to figure you and I don't mean the same thing by the term "free will".

I think your definition has something to do with indeterminism, but whatever it is, if a person can make a decision entirely on their own with neither coercion or constrainst and still not have "free will" entirely because of what someone somewhere does or doesn't know about them, it certainly isn't "free will" as I recognize it.

[Good Lt]

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Or... the blind guy had every choice, and God knew he would end up there anyway. Just like I would if I came from the future.

So...there is no such thing as freedom.

Your god creates everyone knowing who's damned long in advance, and setting it up that way. And he commands them to be well, even though he knows they won't be.

It's all part of the plan to create people you know are damned and to let them pretend they're not as if they can make a decision you know they won't make anyway.

Morality!

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

If a person can make a decision entirely on their own with neither coercion or constrainst and still not have "free will" entirely because of what someone somewhere does or doesn't know about them, it certainly isn't "free will" as I recognize it.

They're not making a decision.

They're just doing what your god set them to do. They can't decide anything else, according to your model. They are incapable (ie, not free) of making a decision that your god didn't know they would make - that would negate your god's omniscience.

[pakeha]

^
And you definition is...?

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

...What precisely is the change that a being that in no way influences the decision itself has on the free will of the event simply by knowing its outcome?

Why even posit the being?

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Or... the blind guy had every choice, and God knew he would end up there anyway. Just like I would if I came from the future.

So there is no free will?

[AvalonXQ]

Originally Posted by Good Lt

So...there is no such thing as freedom.

Sure there is.

Again, since when is freedom defined by foreknowledge? Freedom is defined by lack of constraint.

There is nothing about someone's knowledge of your decision that magically removes your choice from the process of getting to it.

[AvalonXQ]

Originally Posted by pakeha

So there is no free will?

Why not?

[joobz]

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Or... the blind guy had every choice, and God knew he would end up there anyway. Just like I would if I came from the future.

If you believe in the multiple timeline concept, then yes. But if there is one and only one true timeline, then there is no free will.

[AvalonXQ]

Originally Posted by joobz

If you believe in the multiple timeline concept, then yes. But if there is one and only one true timeline, then there is no free will.

Why not?

[Good Lt]

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Sure there is.

Again, since when is freedom defined by foreknowledge? Freedom is defined by lack of constraint.

There is nothing about someone's knowledge of your decision that magically removes your choice from the process of getting to it.

There is no choice.

You're only doing what you were sent to do. According to the plan. And there is no deviating or getting away from the plan.

If you're destined for hell from even before you're born, there is no way for you not to go.

There are no surprises for your god. A man is not free to make a decision that would otherwise alter his fate.

It has nothing to do with coercion. It has to do with being part of a plan you are not able to change.

If you're part of a plan you can't deviate from, you have no freedom. You're a pawn.

And your god is responsible for sending people to hell under this model.

[joobz]

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Why not?

one timeline means one and only one set of choices to be made.
Hence, no choice.

[Good Lt]

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Why not?

Because your outcome is predetermined.

Your god has made the outcome that god wants already.

It doesn't matter what man wants or decides.

Therefore, there no freedom.

Is there a decision a person is capable of making that would contravene a path that god had set a person on? Can your god create a man whose course he himself can not predict?

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Sure there is.

Again, since when is freedom defined by foreknowledge? Freedom is defined by lack of constraint.

There is nothing about someone's knowledge of your decision that magically removes your choice from the process of getting to it.

Yes, there is.

If they KNOW you will do one thing, you cannot do anything else.

Why aren't you getting this?

Let's say god knows you will do X. Doesn't matter what X is.

You are presented with options X, Y and Z. Which ones CAN you choose?

[AvalonXQ]

X, Y, and Z.

[joobz]

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

X, Y, and Z.

If god is real, and omniscient, then that is the only answer you could have given.

[Mister Agenda]

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Well, if you insist that even a future time traveller's knowledge, having no affect on the scenario whatsoever, would negate free will, I have to figure you and I don't mean the same thing by the term "free will".

The time traveller's knowledge doesn't negate free will. The time traveler's knowledge means there never was such a thing as free will, it was always an illusion. From the time traveler's perspective, things that have not yet happened for you are history for her, and the choices are: you must do what the time traveler already knows you will do, meaning predestination is the case and free will is an illusion; or you can do something else, meaning the future is not fixed and the time traveler's knowledge is unreliable. The latter seems unlikely because it means things in the time traveler's past are mutable, but travelling far enough into the past to affect events is paradoxical anyway, so for purposes of the thought experiment I think it's okay to entertain the notion.

[arthwollipot]

I kind of agree with AvalonXQ here - up to a point. An observer of a choice does not affect that choice, even if the observer knows what choice will be made.

However, the Christian God is not a mere observer. Generally, whatever God wills comes to pass. God determines events.

Pharaoh did not use free will when he refused to let the Israelites free. God had hardened his heart. Does God make some things happen and not others?

[MarkCorrigan]

So you're saying that even though you ARE going to pick X, you can pick Y?

[Good Lt]

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

X, Y, and Z.

False.

You will 'choose' what your god has determined and willed that you will choose. And not anything else.

[MarkCorrigan]

Avalon, let's say god knows you will pick X.

You pick Y.

Either god is wrong, and therefore not omniscient and free will is safe, or you have just destroyed the universe with an unsolvable paradox.

If you can think of a way around this, please tell me, because from where I sit, you're in a corner.

[joobz]

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.

[Dave Rogers]

Let's put it differently. God creates a universe in which, at some point, you have two possible courses of action: X and Y. Taking course X will lead to your eternal salvation, and taking course Y will lead to your eternal damnation. At the time of creating the universe, being omniscient, God is aware that you will take course Y, and, being omnipotent, he is equally capable of creating the universe in such a way that you will instead take course X.

Who is responsible for your course of action, and did you have any choice in it?

Dave

[Good Lt]

Originally Posted by joobz

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

And Avalon's god knew that you would make it. No matter what it is.

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Sure there is.

Again, since when is freedom defined by foreknowledge? Freedom is defined by lack of constraint.

There is nothing about someone's knowledge of your decision that magically removes your choice from the process of getting to it.

What you seem to be dancing around in your analogies is the fact that he not only has the knowledge but set the whole thing up himself. Your analogy of a time traveler is incorrect in one major facet.

For your analogy to be correct you would have to choose a specific situation, lets say what someone is going to do on a tuesday, and then set up a series of events that will lead them to doing this, the one way time travel is a horribly flawed analogy, in that the person time traveling has no control over what the person will do, god on the other hand, from what i hear created the universe thereby setting up the exact series of events that lead to whatever it is your doing on a given day.

Only if you ignore half of god's character sheet, can you legitimately hold this opinion. He set up the universe, and as such, we would have no more free will, than baking soda and vinegar do. He set up the elements of the experiment, and not only that but set up all the physical rules of the universe from scratch, adding in he already knows the outcome, its a pretty strong destruction of the free will argument.

Assuming god exists, he could have set up the universe in such a manner that he does not know what is going to happen, legitimately giving us free will. But as the bible clearly states this is simply not how he rolls.

[Finster]

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

Let's put it differently. God creates a universe in which, at some point, you have two possible courses of action: X and Y. Taking course X will lead to your eternal salvation, and taking course Y will lead to your eternal damnation. At the time of creating the universe, being omniscient, God is aware that you will take course Y, and, being omnipotent, he is equally capable of creating the universe in such a way that you will instead take course X.

Who is responsible for your course of action, and did you have any choice in it?

Dave

I think that's the crux of it. Presumably if god is omnipotent he has infinite options when creating something. He knows ahead of time exactly what his creation will do. Out of an infinite number of possibilities he chooses to create it in a certain fashion. He is essentially pre-choosing every choice that will be made by his creation. He doesn't just know what's going to happen, he makes a conscious choice that it must happen.

[Last of the Fraggles]

Originally Posted by sadhatter

What you seem to be dancing around in your analogies is the fact that he not only has the knowledge but set the whole thing up himself. Your analogy of a time traveler is incorrect in one major facet.

For your analogy to be correct you would have to choose a specific situation, lets say what someone is going to do on a tuesday, and then set up a series of events that will lead them to doing this, the one way time travel is a horribly flawed analogy, in that the person time traveling has no control over what the person will do, god on the other hand, from what i hear created the universe thereby setting up the exact series of events that lead to whatever it is your doing on a given day.

Only if you ignore half of god's character sheet, can you legitimately hold this opinion. He set up the universe, and as such, we would have no more free will, than baking soda and vinegar do. He set up the elements of the experiment, and not only that but set up all the physical rules of the universe from scratch, adding in he already knows the outcome, its a pretty strong destruction of the free will argument.

Assuming god exists, he could have set up the universe in such a manner that he does not know what is going to happen, legitimately giving us free will. But as the bible clearly states this is simply not how he rolls.

I agree, but when I introduced the time traveller idea I was only responding to the specific point in the OP about omniscience and free will, not about a God.

Free Will just seems to be a fudge to explain why perfect God created imperfect beings and to give an excuse to punish them.

[Good Lt]

Relevant and always worth repeating in a discussion of omniscience and omnipotence:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

I think the typical problem people have in reconciling these two concepts is that they have an idea in their head of how omniscience works and there's no reason to believe it actually works that way.

Fixed that for you.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Again, I disagree.

Avalon, it's just a matter of boolean logic. How can you disagree with logic ?

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

X, Y, and Z.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

So you're saying that even though you ARE going to pick X, you can pick Y?

It's worse than that. He's saying that even though it's been determined since creation that you would pick, X, that god knows it and there is NO other possibility, you can still pick Y.

[Last of the Fraggles]

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

X, Y, and Z.

If you were to ask the omniscient being/time traveller which choices you could pick would their answer be the same?

[AvalonXQ]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

So you're saying that even though you ARE going to pick X, you can pick Y?

That's exactly right.

My capacity to pick Y is not eliminated by the fact that, as it happens, I will actually pick X.

Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles

If you were to ask the omniscient being/time traveller which choices you could pick would their answer be the same?

Yes.

[HansMustermann]

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Or... the blind guy had every choice, and God knew he would end up there anyway. Just like I would if I came from the future.

Except that if you can come from the future, and know exactly what I'll do next, that is the very definition of predestination.

Which, by the way, opens its own theological can of worms, and that's exactly why the "free will" excuse is there. Because if God knows everything that you will decide, then, just off the top of my head,

- he already knows which people will be good and which people will be naughty. He knows who'll accept Jesus and who won't. Which negates the whole point of having this life as some sort of exam, because God already knows what you'll do on that exam.

- he already knows which people will go ahead and act on the brain wiring problem that makes them attracted to the same sex. So why bother railing against gays, instead of just fixing or aborting those who are going to act on it? There is exactly zero need to test them, if he already knows the outcome.

- he already knew what Job's reaction will be. So why bother doing cruel stuff to him and his family, including murdering his children and slaves, in the name of testing his faith? WTH point does it make to test anything, if the outcome is already determined and known?

- he already knew what Adam and Eve will do in the garden. In detail. So (A) why not just move the tree or something, and (B) how insane does he have to be to still get pissed off at them, when he just allowed the whole thing to happen? For that matter, if he knew exactly what they'll do, why not create different people who'd do something else? What insane sense does it make to create something that you know with 100% certainty that it will annoy you... and then get annoyed at it anyway?

- he already knew that humans will get all wicked and need a complete genocide by Noah's time. So why bother making those generations in the first place? Why not start directly at Noah? Just for the sake of having some people and their babies to drown?

- more importantly, he knew that people like Ted Bundy or the BTK serial killer ("Bind Torture Kill", and yeah, he tortured people to death) and so on will commit those atrocities. There is no point in testing them or anyone else, if God already knows the outcome. What remains is that they were allowed to go do all that evil stuff, while God was already knowing both what they will do and what reactions it will cause in anyone else. It becomes just allowing some evil for no sane reason.

Etc.

Basically "free will" is discussed in the first place only because predestination is a worse can of worms. It's only of any use whatsoever if it's instead of predestination.

Arguing for some way to keep both free will and predestination, is a pointless exercise, because if you have predestination anyway, then your redefined version of free will is fully irrelevant anyway. It becomes just an irrelevant entity on the side, no more than a red herring to distract from the real problem.

[Good Lt]

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

That's exactly right.

My capacity to pick Y is not eliminated by the fact that, as it happens, I will actually pick X.

But since you're predestined to pick X, you are not actually free to pick Y.

You've been assigned to pick X. It's part of the plan, and you can't change that plan.

[Last of the Fraggles]

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Yes.

Go on.

[AdMan]

Originally Posted by Good Lt

But since you're predestined to pick X, you are not actually free to pick Y.

You've been assigned to pick X. It's part of the plan, and you can't change that plan.

Exactly. With an omniscient god, free will is only an illusion.

[Finster]

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

That's exactly right.

My capacity to pick Y is not eliminated by the fact that, as it happens, I will actually pick X.



Yes.

But if god created you such that you would pick X, and he had the option to create you such that you would pick Y, then he made the decision, not you.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

That's exactly right.

My capacity to pick Y is not eliminated by the fact that, as it happens, I will actually pick X.

Yes it is.

You can't pick Y. It's impossible for you to do so. Your hands are tied.