If the Earth isn't 6,000 years old... - Page 6

dafydd · 30th May 2012, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by Good Lt

Did God create leprosy and withhold the knowledge needed to cure it?

If you believe that the bible is the literal word of god, yes.

dafydd · 30th May 2012, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by Good Lt

"The Lord works in mysterious ways."

So watching millions die of diseases over the centuries and keeping the cures from them and giving false information about animals is mysterious? Sounds more like wickedness to me.

MG1962 · 30th May 2012, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by Good Lt

Did God create leprosy and withhold the knowledge needed to cure it?

Well that kind of defeats the purpose of the fall doesn't it

dafydd · 30th May 2012, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Well that kind of defeats the purpose of the fall doesn't it

Why would god want to defeat the purpose of Mark E. Smith's band?

MG1962 · 30th May 2012, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

So watching millions die of diseases over the centuries and keeping the cures from them and giving false information about animals is mysterious? Sounds more like wickedness to me.

Well somethings got to get you - otherwise it would be getting pretty crowded about now

MG1962 · 30th May 2012, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Why would god want to defeat the purpose of Mark E. Smith's band?

Have you heard them? - Would explain a lot

I Ratant · 30th May 2012, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

You really believe this?

.
Has to.
His self-label as 'literalist' prevents anything else, like history intruding.

Dinwar · 30th May 2012, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by westprog

The Catholic church should not be fostering division and attacking other churches over issues that have nothing to do with religion. The pope made a strong statement over evolution.

I've got to give you credit--you're only demanding YOUR side comply with your wishes at this point.

However, I still find that a single strong statement isn't nearly enough. Would a single strong statement from a university chair prove to you that the university was serious about rooting out rampant fraud? Particularly after that institution has shown itself to be more or less without any ethics (any institution knowingly covering for child molesters cannot claim to be ethical)?

I'll agree that the child abuse scandal is a major reason for the migration out of Catholicism. However, I don't agree that it's THE reason. A lot of atheists say that studying evolution led them to abandon faith. It's likely a combination of reasons, unique to each person, with the evolution/Creationism thing being one side of it.

Good Lt · 30th May 2012, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Well that kind of defeats the purpose of the fall doesn't it

Assuming 'the fall' happened, how does God helping his children not be ravaged by leprosy 'defeat the purpose' of it?

not_so_new · 30th May 2012, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by Good Lt

I'll answer it this way - you're a self-described Biblical literalist. Fine.

Do you believe that snakes can talk?

Of course they can, you haven't seen Harry Potter?

I think you are barking up the wrong tree. It's a thing that we atheists do, we see the world as..... you know... the place around us. But believers see magic (for lack of a better word) and incorporate it into their world view.

You and I hear "talking snake" and we think "there is NOTHING like that in nature, currently or in the historical record." To defeat the talking snake argument we assume we can appeal to reason with logical arguments, "there is no proof of talking snakes in science" but to someone with a magical worldview it's an easy leap to insert sky daddy magic into the mix.

Perhaps I am not telling you anything you don't already know but, while I see your line of thinking as completely compelling and logical, it's a very uncompelling tact with someone who believes in hocus pocus, they can just pull out their magical "god did it" get out of jail free card.

westprog · 30th May 2012, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by Dinwar

I've got to give you credit--you're only demanding YOUR side comply with your wishes at this point.

However, I still find that a single strong statement isn't nearly enough. Would a single strong statement from a university chair prove to you that the university was serious about rooting out rampant fraud? Particularly after that institution has shown itself to be more or less without any ethics (any institution knowingly covering for child molesters cannot claim to be ethical)?

I'll agree that the child abuse scandal is a major reason for the migration out of Catholicism. However, I don't agree that it's THE reason. A lot of atheists say that studying evolution led them to abandon faith. It's likely a combination of reasons, unique to each person, with the evolution/Creationism thing being one side of it.

There may well be Catholics who lost their faith over evolution, but I doubt if there were that many. A typical Catholic over the last fifty years would have been taught about evolution at school, and never heard anything against it in church.

I really don't think that the Catholic church's disgraceful record on child abuse is remotely comparable with their restrained and sensible stance on evolution.

Andrew Wiggin · 30th May 2012, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by Tony

But the "we all" in Romans chapter 3 doesnt include me.

It doesn't include lots of people. Have you read the essay 'We are the other people'?

http://www.paganlibrary.com/fundies/other_people.php

Marduk · 31st May 2012, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Not all snakes; just the serpent in the Garden (who we learn much later was Satan).

where do we learn this Avalon, chapter and verse ?

catsmate1 · 31st May 2012, 02:56 AM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Of course. And it still isn't any impediment to the faith of most Christians these days.

But, as has been pointed out, I'm a bit late to this thread, for those xians for whom it is a problem, it's a big problem; and one that they're very vocal in denying. Not to mention forcing their views on others.

Originally Posted by westprog

However, there are various issues on which you differ with other atheists. There is no total atheist consensus.

So what? The idea that all atheists are part of one group is rubbish, a concept held to only by believers.

Belz... · 31st May 2012, 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by rcfieldz

Which are not true? And please explain.

Well... the Earth wasn't created in six days, there was no Adam and Eve, snakes don't talk, people don't live to be 900, there was no global flood, language and civilization predate the creation of the world, there is no evidence for the flight from Egypt, there are two contradictory accounts of creation, the flood and the genealogy of Jesus, etc.

Belz... · 31st May 2012, 03:06 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

We choose to sin. Free will choice.

In that case, how do you know we EACH choose sin ?

Quote:

I certainly do, and you haven't given me one!

You need a mechanism for a definition ?

Belz... · 31st May 2012, 03:09 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

I disagree.

I would be willing to wager dimes to donuts your next response will quote the Romans 5 parenthetical.

The bible does not explicitly give an age, but it's easy to add up the various years to get an approximate read. None of those could possibly give millions of years -- to say nothing about billions.

Quote:

Which of my statements are you interpreting as meaning this?

This one:

Quote:

Many Biblical literalists, myself included, don't believe in original sin.

AvalonXQ · 31st May 2012, 03:22 AM

Originally Posted by Marduk

where do we learn this Avalon, chapter and verse ?

Revelation 12:9

AvalonXQ · 31st May 2012, 03:24 AM

The Bible doesn't teach Original Sin. That's the point.

dafydd · 31st May 2012, 03:32 AM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Have you heard them? - Would explain a lot

Perhaps He wants to remind us that life is not all fun and games.

dafydd · 31st May 2012, 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Revelation 12:9

I wouldn't place much store in the veracity of a report of a bad acid trip.

dafydd · 31st May 2012, 03:35 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Well... the Earth wasn't created in six days, there was no Adam and Eve, snakes don't talk, people don't live to be 900, there was no global flood, language and civilization predate the creation of the world, there is no evidence for the flight from Egypt, there are two contradictory accounts of creation, the flood and the genealogy of Jesus, etc.

A good rule of thumb is if it's in the bible it's not true.

Elypsis44 · 31st May 2012, 03:45 AM

Originally Posted by Marduk

where do we learn this Avalon, chapter and verse ?

This should be good. Where's that popcorn?

Marduk · 31st May 2012, 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Revelation 12:9

There is absolutely no mention of the serpent of the garden of Eden in that chapter Avalon,
you said

Quote:

the serpent who we learn much later was Satan

where is the literal evidence that identifies the garden serpent with Satan

if you can't offer up chapter and verse then you can't really call yourself a literalist

while we're here, whats Satans actual name, not the adversary which is a title, nor Lucifer which is a greek planet, but his actual Hebrew name, where in the Christian bible does it say it.

dafydd · 31st May 2012, 04:06 AM

Originally Posted by Marduk

There is absolutely no mention of the serpent of the garden of Eden in that chapter Avalon,
[/spoiler]

The creature in the verse is called a dragon and a serpent (John was to stoned to make his mind up), and there is no mention of the garden of Eden.

AvalonXQ · 31st May 2012, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by Marduk

There is absolutely no mention of the serpent of the garden of Eden in that chapter Avalon,

You asked for where we learn that the serpent of old is Satan. That's where.

It's also implied in a few of Jesus' citations and a couple of times in the epistles, but Revelation makes the most explicit identifications.

Marduk · 31st May 2012, 04:12 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

You asked for where we learn that the serpent of old is Satan. That's where.

It's also implied in a few of Jesus' citations and a couple of times in the epistles, but Revelation makes the most explicit identifications.

so Revelation is your best evidence ?

again, it doesnt say anything about the garden of eden in the verse you linked to
where does it explicity say "the serpent in the garden was satan"
because at the moment you're saying that any mention of the word "serpent" in the bible instantly means "satan"
???

dafydd · 31st May 2012, 04:13 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

You asked for where we learn that the serpent of old is Satan. That's where.

.

There was only one serpent?

dafydd · 31st May 2012, 04:14 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

You asked for where we learn that the serpent of old is Satan. That's where.

It's also implied in a few of Jesus' citations and a couple of times in the epistles, but Revelation makes the most explicit identifications.

The stoned nonsense of Revelation is not a reliable source. Whoever wrote it was obviously under the influence of some powerful psychedelic substance..

Marduk · 31st May 2012, 04:22 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

The stoned nonsense of Revelation is not a reliable source. Whoever wrote it was obviously under the influence of some powerful psychedelic substance..

yes, but remember we are playing by Avalons literal rules here
so you have to accept Revelation 12:9 as evidence

which is odd, because strongs concordance states the word used as serpent in that chapter as "ophis"
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G3789&t=KJV
whereas the word used as serpent in the Eden story is "nachash"
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=H5175&t=KJV

so the words are only the same when translated into English, the original language uses two different words because obviously Satan and the Eden snake are not the same thing

any reply from you other than a recantation is going to be ludicrous Avalon

ANTPogo · 31st May 2012, 04:29 AM

No, they aren't two different words in the "original language". They're the same word in two different languages, Hebrew and Greek, with both words having the same meaning when translated into English.

dafydd · 31st May 2012, 04:31 AM

Originally Posted by Marduk

yes, but remember we are playing by Avalons literal rules here
so you have to accept Revelation 12:9 as evidence

which is odd, because strongs concordance states the word used as serpent in that chapter as "ophis"
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G3789&t=KJV
whereas the word used as serpent in the Eden story is "nachash"
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=H5175&t=KJV

so the words are only the same when translated into English, the original language uses two different words because obviously Satan and the Eden snake are not the same thing

any reply from you other than a recantation is going to be ludicrous Avalon

In that case either he or some other christian will have to come and kill me for working on the Sabbath.

AvalonXQ · 31st May 2012, 04:33 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

In that case either he or some other christian will have to come and kill me for working on the Sabbath.

I've only explained about three dozen times that Biblical literalist Christians are not bound to the law of Moses.

AvalonXQ · 31st May 2012, 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by Marduk

so the words are only the same when translated into English, the original language uses two different words because obviously Satan and the Eden snake are not the same thing

I'm pretty sure the LXX uses the same Koine word for both passages. Besides, what Koine word is used in 2 Cor 11:3?

Sorry, but your "different words" argument doesn't hold up to two minutes of scrutiny.

dafydd · 31st May 2012, 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

I've only explained about three dozen times that Biblical literalist Christians are not bound to the law of Moses.

So you christains follow the bible except when you don't?

Belz... · 31st May 2012, 04:40 AM

Originally Posted by westprog

That's certainly an issue for those protestants who work in the standalone tradition, but believers in a continuous Christian church certainly don't make up their own minds from scratch about doctrine.

Oh yes they do.

dafydd · 31st May 2012, 04:40 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

I'm pretty sure the LXX uses the same Koine word for both passages. Besides, what Koine word is used in 2 Cor 11:3?

Sorry, but your "different words" argument doesn't hold up to two minutes of scrutiny.

The veracity of Revelation doesn't hold up to one minute's scrutiny.

Belz... · 31st May 2012, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Not all snakes; just the serpent in the Garden (who we learn much later was Satan).

Retcon.

AvalonXQ · 31st May 2012, 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

So you christains follow the bible except when you don't?

The forum has a search function. Please use it to find one of the dozen or so threads where this issue has already been explained, in depth.

Or just read the Bible itself, recognize that I'm not Jewish, and do the math.

paiute · 31st May 2012, 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by Good Lt

...then doesn't that make the Old Testament account of 'creation' in Genesis absolutely wrong as a point of fact?

And if there was no 'fall of man' as described in that story, then doesn't that mean there was no 'original sin' which is stamped onto every human being since that time?

And if there is no 'original sin' that man as a 'kind' (as the religious use the term) is guilty of, then isn't it then true that there is no need for Jesus to come and 'save' anyone from it?

And if that's the case, then isn't the entire salvation doctrine of Christianity null and void?

If the Earth isn't 6,000 years old, doesn't' that present a raft of theological problems for a whole swath of believers?

But you can't hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals.

For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole fraternity system?

And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general?

I put it to you, Greg - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society?

Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America!

30th May 2012, 06:41 PM	#201
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by Good Lt Did God create leprosy and withhold the knowledge needed to cure it? If you believe that the bible is the literal word of god, yes.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

30th May 2012, 06:45 PM	#202
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by Good Lt "The Lord works in mysterious ways." So watching millions die of diseases over the centuries and keeping the cures from them and giving false information about animals is mysterious? Sounds more like wickedness to me.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

30th May 2012, 06:53 PM	#204
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by MG1962 Well that kind of defeats the purpose of the fall doesn't it Why would god want to defeat the purpose of Mark E. Smith's band?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

30th May 2012, 07:18 PM	#208
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,971	Originally Posted by westprog The Catholic church should not be fostering division and attacking other churches over issues that have nothing to do with religion. The pope made a strong statement over evolution. I've got to give you credit--you're only demanding YOUR side comply with your wishes at this point. However, I still find that a single strong statement isn't nearly enough. Would a single strong statement from a university chair prove to you that the university was serious about rooting out rampant fraud? Particularly after that institution has shown itself to be more or less without any ethics (any institution knowingly covering for child molesters cannot claim to be ethical)? I'll agree that the child abuse scandal is a major reason for the migration out of Catholicism. However, I don't agree that it's THE reason. A lot of atheists say that studying evolution led them to abandon faith. It's likely a combination of reasons, unique to each person, with the evolution/Creationism thing being one side of it.
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,971	__________________ GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment. Ein krieg ohne feinde.

30th May 2012, 07:51 PM	#209
Good Lt Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Satellite of Love Posts: 1,487	Originally Posted by MG1962 Well that kind of defeats the purpose of the fall doesn't it Assuming 'the fall' happened, how does God helping his children not be ravaged by leprosy 'defeat the purpose' of it?
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30th May 2012, 06:51 PM	#203
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by Good Lt Did God create leprosy and withhold the knowledge needed to cure it? Well that kind of defeats the purpose of the fall doesn't it

30th May 2012, 06:53 PM	#205
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by dafydd So watching millions die of diseases over the centuries and keeping the cures from them and giving false information about animals is mysterious? Sounds more like wickedness to me. Well somethings got to get you - otherwise it would be getting pretty crowded about now

30th May 2012, 07:04 PM	#206
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by dafydd Why would god want to defeat the purpose of Mark E. Smith's band? Have you heard them? - Would explain a lot

30th May 2012, 07:04 PM	#207
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken You really believe this? . Has to. His self-label as 'literalist' prevents anything else, like history intruding.

30th May 2012, 09:05 PM	#210
not_so_new Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,544	Originally Posted by Good Lt I'll answer it this way - you're a self-described Biblical literalist. Fine. Do you believe that snakes can talk? Of course they can, you haven't seen Harry Potter? I think you are barking up the wrong tree. It's a thing that we atheists do, we see the world as..... you know... the place around us. But believers see magic (for lack of a better word) and incorporate it into their world view. You and I hear "talking snake" and we think "there is NOTHING like that in nature, currently or in the historical record." To defeat the talking snake argument we assume we can appeal to reason with logical arguments, "there is no proof of talking snakes in science" but to someone with a magical worldview it's an easy leap to insert sky daddy magic into the mix. Perhaps I am not telling you anything you don't already know but, while I see your line of thinking as completely compelling and logical, it's a very uncompelling tact with someone who believes in hocus pocus, they can just pull out their magical "god did it" get out of jail free card.

30th May 2012, 09:06 PM	#211
westprog Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,928	Originally Posted by Dinwar I've got to give you credit--you're only demanding YOUR side comply with your wishes at this point. However, I still find that a single strong statement isn't nearly enough. Would a single strong statement from a university chair prove to you that the university was serious about rooting out rampant fraud? Particularly after that institution has shown itself to be more or less without any ethics (any institution knowingly covering for child molesters cannot claim to be ethical)? I'll agree that the child abuse scandal is a major reason for the migration out of Catholicism. However, I don't agree that it's THE reason. A lot of atheists say that studying evolution led them to abandon faith. It's likely a combination of reasons, unique to each person, with the evolution/Creationism thing being one side of it. There may well be Catholics who lost their faith over evolution, but I doubt if there were that many. A typical Catholic over the last fifty years would have been taught about evolution at school, and never heard anything against it in church. I really don't think that the Catholic church's disgraceful record on child abuse is remotely comparable with their restrained and sensible stance on evolution.
westprog Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,928	__________________ Dreary whiner, who gradually outwore his welcome, before blowing it entirely.

30th May 2012, 10:02 PM	#212
Andrew Wiggin Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: A small planet named for its dirt. You'll find it filed under 'mostly harmless' Posts: 2,914	Originally Posted by Tony But the "we all" in Romans chapter 3 doesnt include me. It doesn't include lots of people. Have you read the essay 'We are the other people'? http://www.paganlibrary.com/fundies/other_people.php
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31st May 2012, 12:23 AM	#213
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Not all snakes; just the serpent in the Garden (who we learn much later was Satan). where do we learn this Avalon, chapter and verse ?
	Last edited by Marduk; 31st May 2012 at 01:43 AM.

31st May 2012, 02:56 AM	#214
catsmate1 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland) Posts: 7,136	Originally Posted by ANTPogo Of course. And it still isn't any impediment to the faith of most Christians these days. But, as has been pointed out, I'm a bit late to this thread, for those xians for whom it is a problem, it's a big problem; and one that they're very vocal in denying. Not to mention forcing their views on others. Originally Posted by westprog However, there are various issues on which you differ with other atheists. There is no total atheist consensus. So what? The idea that all atheists are part of one group is rubbish, a concept held to only by believers.

31st May 2012, 03:02 AM	#215
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,531	Originally Posted by rcfieldz Which are not true? And please explain. Well... the Earth wasn't created in six days, there was no Adam and Eve, snakes don't talk, people don't live to be 900, there was no global flood, language and civilization predate the creation of the world, there is no evidence for the flight from Egypt, there are two contradictory accounts of creation, the flood and the genealogy of Jesus, etc.
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31st May 2012, 03:06 AM	#216
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,531	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ We choose to sin. Free will choice. In that case, how do you know we EACH choose sin ? Quote: I certainly do, and you haven't given me one! You need a mechanism for a definition ?
	__________________ The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za: "In the interests of time and space, it is not unreasonable to cite one point at a time. Citing 30 is the equivalent of citing none. Obviously." - Robert Prey "Physical evidence must be observed and interpreted by witnesses which makes it subjective and subject to mistakes and to fraud." - Robert Prey

31st May 2012, 03:09 AM	#217
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,531	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ I disagree. I would be willing to wager dimes to donuts your next response will quote the Romans 5 parenthetical. The bible does not explicitly give an age, but it's easy to add up the various years to get an approximate read. None of those could possibly give millions of years -- to say nothing about billions. Quote: Which of my statements are you interpreting as meaning this? This one: Quote: Many Biblical literalists, myself included, don't believe in original sin.
	__________________ The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za: "In the interests of time and space, it is not unreasonable to cite one point at a time. Citing 30 is the equivalent of citing none. Obviously." - Robert Prey "Physical evidence must be observed and interpreted by witnesses which makes it subjective and subject to mistakes and to fraud." - Robert Prey

31st May 2012, 03:22 AM	#218
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by Marduk where do we learn this Avalon, chapter and verse ? Revelation 12:9
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

31st May 2012, 03:24 AM	#219
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	The Bible doesn't teach Original Sin. That's the point.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

31st May 2012, 03:32 AM	#220
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by MG1962 Have you heard them? - Would explain a lot Perhaps He wants to remind us that life is not all fun and games.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

31st May 2012, 03:34 AM	#221
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Revelation 12:9 I wouldn't place much store in the veracity of a report of a bad acid trip.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

31st May 2012, 03:35 AM	#222
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by Belz... Well... the Earth wasn't created in six days, there was no Adam and Eve, snakes don't talk, people don't live to be 900, there was no global flood, language and civilization predate the creation of the world, there is no evidence for the flight from Egypt, there are two contradictory accounts of creation, the flood and the genealogy of Jesus, etc. A good rule of thumb is if it's in the bible it's not true.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

31st May 2012, 03:45 AM	#223
Elypsis44 Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 3,456	Originally Posted by Marduk where do we learn this Avalon, chapter and verse ? This should be good. Where's that popcorn?
Elypsis44 Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 3,456

31st May 2012, 04:00 AM	#224
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Revelation 12:9 There is absolutely no mention of the serpent of the garden of Eden in that chapter Avalon, you said Quote: the serpent who we learn much later was Satan where is the literal evidence that identifies the garden serpent with Satan if you can't offer up chapter and verse then you can't really call yourself a literalist while we're here, whats Satans actual name, not the adversary which is a title, nor Lucifer which is a greek planet, but his actual Hebrew name, where in the Christian bible does it say it. If anyones actually interested in the facts here, the Eden story predates the Babylonian diaspora, and Angels weren't part of Jewish belief until after that real world event, which is why Avalon won't be able to properly support his earlier statement scripturally,

31st May 2012, 04:06 AM	#225
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by Marduk There is absolutely no mention of the serpent of the garden of Eden in that chapter Avalon, [/spoiler] The creature in the verse is called a dragon and a serpent (John was to stoned to make his mind up), and there is no mention of the garden of Eden.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

31st May 2012, 04:09 AM	#226
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by Marduk There is absolutely no mention of the serpent of the garden of Eden in that chapter Avalon, You asked for where we learn that the serpent of old is Satan. That's where. It's also implied in a few of Jesus' citations and a couple of times in the epistles, but Revelation makes the most explicit identifications.
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31st May 2012, 04:12 AM	#227
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ You asked for where we learn that the serpent of old is Satan. That's where. It's also implied in a few of Jesus' citations and a couple of times in the epistles, but Revelation makes the most explicit identifications. so Revelation is your best evidence ? again, it doesnt say anything about the garden of eden in the verse you linked to where does it explicity say "the serpent in the garden was satan" because at the moment you're saying that any mention of the word "serpent" in the bible instantly means "satan" ???

31st May 2012, 04:13 AM	#228
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ You asked for where we learn that the serpent of old is Satan. That's where. . There was only one serpent?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

31st May 2012, 04:14 AM	#229
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ You asked for where we learn that the serpent of old is Satan. That's where. It's also implied in a few of Jesus' citations and a couple of times in the epistles, but Revelation makes the most explicit identifications. The stoned nonsense of Revelation is not a reliable source. Whoever wrote it was obviously under the influence of some powerful psychedelic substance..
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

31st May 2012, 04:22 AM	#230
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by dafydd The stoned nonsense of Revelation is not a reliable source. Whoever wrote it was obviously under the influence of some powerful psychedelic substance.. yes, but remember we are playing by Avalons literal rules here so you have to accept Revelation 12:9 as evidence which is odd, because strongs concordance states the word used as serpent in that chapter as "ophis" http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G3789&t=KJV whereas the word used as serpent in the Eden story is "nachash" http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=H5175&t=KJV so the words are only the same when translated into English, the original language uses two different words because obviously Satan and the Eden snake are not the same thing any reply from you other than a recantation is going to be ludicrous Avalon
	Last edited by Marduk; 31st May 2012 at 04:25 AM.

31st May 2012, 04:29 AM	#231
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,466	No, they aren't two different words in the "original language". They're the same word in two different languages, Hebrew and Greek, with both words having the same meaning when translated into English.
	__________________ "A nation can survive with kufr, but not with zulm." - ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib "No more hurting people" - Martin William Richard Currently Reading: Righteous Victims, by Benny Morris

31st May 2012, 04:31 AM	#232
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by Marduk yes, but remember we are playing by Avalons literal rules here so you have to accept Revelation 12:9 as evidence which is odd, because strongs concordance states the word used as serpent in that chapter as "ophis" http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G3789&t=KJV whereas the word used as serpent in the Eden story is "nachash" http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=H5175&t=KJV so the words are only the same when translated into English, the original language uses two different words because obviously Satan and the Eden snake are not the same thing any reply from you other than a recantation is going to be ludicrous Avalon In that case either he or some other christian will have to come and kill me for working on the Sabbath.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

31st May 2012, 04:33 AM	#233
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by dafydd In that case either he or some other christian will have to come and kill me for working on the Sabbath. I've only explained about three dozen times that Biblical literalist Christians are not bound to the law of Moses.
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31st May 2012, 04:36 AM	#234
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by Marduk so the words are only the same when translated into English, the original language uses two different words because obviously Satan and the Eden snake are not the same thing I'm pretty sure the LXX uses the same Koine word for both passages. Besides, what Koine word is used in 2 Cor 11:3? Sorry, but your "different words" argument doesn't hold up to two minutes of scrutiny.
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31st May 2012, 04:39 AM	#235
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ I've only explained about three dozen times that Biblical literalist Christians are not bound to the law of Moses. So you christains follow the bible except when you don't?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.