The US just cant win sometimes - Page 2

Caper · 31st May 2012, 01:49 AM

This whole joke is just another example of this..."I gotcha" culture we live in now. People constantly looking to be offensive... what a joke.

Stellafane · 31st May 2012, 02:50 AM

Next time just say "Ich bin ein Polanski" or something.

Alan · 31st May 2012, 03:19 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Of course we all know that Obama "mis-spoke" as the irritating politicalese jargon has it. But you can't say that Obama did nothing wrong by "mis-speaking" when "mis-speaking" is, by definition doing something wrong.

I think you might be equivocating wrong as in incorrect and wrong as in unethical.

NoZed Avenger · 31st May 2012, 04:29 AM

This shouldn't be a huge deal, but it was an unforced error.

Poland's dissatisfaction with the phrase is not new, and the speechifiers should have known better. It was an 'own goal.'

Relations already had some strains -- such as the decision to scrap missiles in Poland (that, just for extra grins, was announced on the anniversary of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact). Polish leaders never liked that. They also probably are looking for some tit for tat -- Obama last year (? Whenever the visit to Poland was) refused to meet Lech Walesa one-on-one because he was too 'political'. Lech Walesa was put forward to accept the award this trip, but he was again shot down. I suspect the Polish government read that as another snub, and were looking for something to show their politicians can hold grudges as well as ours.

tomwaits · 31st May 2012, 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by NoZed Avenger

Obama last year (? Whenever the visit to Poland was) refused to meet Lech Walesa one-on-one because he was too 'political'.

You've got it backwards. It was Lech Walesa that refused to meet Obama.

Travis · 31st May 2012, 04:55 AM

I still fail to see how this is wrong. They were in Poland. The majority of those that died in them were Polish. That makes them "Polish Death Camps." It doesn't matter who ran the damn things.

The distinction is made because the Nazi's were evil bastards all over the place but those particular manifestations of evil were in Poland.

If Canada invaded the USA and set up death camps that killed Americans they could be correctly called "American Death Camps" even though evil Canucks ran them.

angrysoba · 31st May 2012, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by Alan

I think you might be equivocating wrong as in incorrect and wrong as in unethical.

No, I'm saying he made a mistake rather than doing something evil.

But if you say someone can't win sometimes it suggests a number of options which will be seized on by your opponents and criticized, often unjustly. I'm just saying that in this case he did actually do something wrong (i.e incorrect, a mistake etc...) so it is not as if the criticism is unjustified.

Bluespaceoddity · 31st May 2012, 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by Travis

I still fail to see how this is wrong. They were in Poland. The majority of those that died in them were Polish. That makes them "Polish Death Camps." It doesn't matter who ran the damn things.

The distinction is made because the Nazi's were evil bastards all over the place but those particular manifestations of evil were in Poland.

If Canada invaded the USA and set up death camps that killed Americans they could be correctly called "American Death Camps" even though evil Canucks ran them.

Fortunately President Obama knows that it matters and he will issue a new diplomatic directive to that effect shortly in his effort to further diffuse the current situation and to avoid recurrence.
Fortunately President Komorowski has already stated that the mistake was not intentional as he reiterated how significant the distinction is.

http://www.president.pl/en/news/news...ly-untrue.html

NoZed Avenger · 31st May 2012, 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by tomwaits

You've got it backwards. It was Lech Walesa that refused to meet Obama.

No. He refused to go to a big group meeting because he requested a face-to-face meeting which the Obama people declined. It has been tit for tat the whole time between the two governments.

tomwaits · 31st May 2012, 06:14 AM

Originally Posted by NoZed Avenger

No. He refused to go to a big group meeting because he requested a face-to-face meeting which the Obama people declined. It has been tit for tat the whole time between the two governments.

Link? When asked about it, Walesa said this:

Quote:

It's difficult to tell journalists what you'd like to say to the president of a superpower. This time I won't tell him, I won't meet him, it doesn't suit me.

No mention of what you allege.

Jeff Corey · 31st May 2012, 06:39 AM

NSFW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mitF1kpMbvg

Travis · 31st May 2012, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by Bluespaceoddity

Fortunately President Obama knows that it matters and he will issue a new diplomatic directive to that effect shortly in his effort to further diffuse the current situation and to avoid recurrence.
Fortunately President Komorowski has already stated that the mistake was not intentional as he reiterated how significant the distinction is.

http://www.president.pl/en/news/news...ly-untrue.html

He shouldn't apologize because it wasn't a mistake.

If they think less of him because of it then fine, let them.

Checkmite · 31st May 2012, 08:21 AM

Much ado over nothing. There's not a single person in the world who would read Obama's comments as implying that the Poles and not the Nazis were running the concentration camps in Poland.

Dave Rogers · 31st May 2012, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Much ado over nothing. There's not a single person in the world who would read Obama's comments as implying that the Poles and not the Nazis were running the concentration camps in Poland.

[Looks round nervously, but can't see Clayton Moore]

Dave

sarge · 31st May 2012, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by Bluespaceoddity

This exact sentence construction has been a big issue for decades so I think those who've expressed outrage are exactly as outraged as they appear to be. It was a major mistake. President Obama basically uttered the one phrase he should have avoided - especially during a ceremony designed to honor a Pole.

Then I was wrong - the Poles really are that silly.

It was a gaffe that should not generate much conversation. That it has so ruffled a nations feathers is indicative that the nation should collectively have a drink or something.

I am ambivalent about Obama generally, but this was one grossly overblown incident.

Rasmus · 31st May 2012, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by Travis

I still fail to see how this is wrong. They were in Poland. The majority of those that died in them were Polish. That makes them "Polish Death Camps." It doesn't matter who ran the damn things.

The distinction is made because the Nazi's were evil bastards all over the place but those particular manifestations of evil were in Poland.

If Canada invaded the USA and set up death camps that killed Americans they could be correctly called "American Death Camps" even though evil Canucks ran them.

I would think of them as "Canadian Death Camps", just like I think of "Nazi Deathcamp" or "German Concentration Camps", and not "Jewish Concentration Camps".

I am rather surprised to find that this term is actually being used - far less surprised that it seems to be only a minority of people using it.

Rasmus · 31st May 2012, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Much ado over nothing. There's not a single person in the world who would read Obama's comments as implying that the Poles and not the Nazis were running the concentration camps in Poland.

Well, I would.

And then I would realize that he couldn't have possible meant that.

So, debates over whether it was a mistake or not notwithstanding: Apo9logize, accept it, and be done with it.

NoZed Avenger · 31st May 2012, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by tomwaits

Link? When asked about it, Walesa said this:

The early AP stories gave it as a reason: "Walesa refused to divulge more, but it seemed possible he was offended at not being offered a one-on-one meeting with Obama early on

Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blu...#ixzz1wTW5nfhR

But on review, it looks like the report was of a "possible" reason, and I had rememebered it as the reason being offered in the news accounts. Apparently the news stories mentioning it all were getting it from the AP report, and the AP report is equivocal at best, and making stuff up at worst, so I'll withdraw that. News stories did repeat the AP story at the time, and that was what I recalled seeing (without the "possible" wording).

But I don't think that detail changes the point that the relations between the 2 powers already had some strains, and it looks like the Polish leaders are using this as a tit for tat kind of thing.

NobbyNobbs · 31st May 2012, 05:27 PM

Well, you have to understand, Obama was born in Kenya, which means English is his second language. He's bound to make an occasional mistake.

Halfcentaur · 31st May 2012, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Much ado over nothing. There's not a single person in the world who would read Obama's comments as implying that the Poles and not the Nazis were running the concentration camps in Poland.

I saw dozens of anti Obama posters making this claim on AOL's comment section. I thought maybe I was seeing things.

MG1962 · 31st May 2012, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

[Looks round nervously, but can't see Clayton Moore]

Dave

I think he is to busy polishing his libertarian socialist Nazi persona to bother with such mundane matters

Noztradamus · 31st May 2012, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by Travis

He shouldn't apologize because it wasn't a mistake.

And yet his White House apologist has already said it was. Are you saying the White House lied?

Puppycow · 31st May 2012, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Either it is a slow news day in Poland, or at least one country in this world needs to get over itself.

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

Well, Auschwitz was and is in Poland, which (in English) makes it a ' "Polish " death camp'

Originally Posted by Travis

I still fail to see how this is wrong. They were in Poland. The majority of those that died in them were Polish. That makes them "Polish Death Camps." It doesn't matter who ran the damn things.

Perhaps some background would clarify:

Quote:

Usage of the term has been condemned as insulting by the Polish foreign minister Adam Daniel Rotfeld in 2005, who also alleged that it—intentionally or unintentionally—shifted the responsibility for the construction or operation of the camps from the German to the Polish people.

The use of terms explicitly mentioning "Poland" or "Polish" has been monitored and discouraged by the Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Polonia organizations around the world as well as by all Polish governments since 1989.

So they've been sensitive about it for a long time, and they've been telling people about it. It's a taboo in Poland.

So naturally the Polish see it as what Obama himself might call "a teachable moment."

Cain · 1st June 2012, 01:19 AM

So Obama thinks Polacks are Nazis.

Bad Lieutenant · 1st June 2012, 01:39 AM

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Yeah, I suspect the recent BBC Panorama investigation into the shocking levels of Neo-Nazism, racism and anti-Semitism in Polish and Ukrainian football games may have given this "blunder" a bit of weight to the Poles, who are busy denying that they have a problem despite videotaped evidence of massive sections of the crowd chanting racist things and shouting "Sieg Heil!" whilst pulling Nazi salutes.

It's hard to deny. I reckon BO said it on purpose - the USA can't play in the Euros but they can sure get involved!

Bluespaceoddity · 1st June 2012, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Yes - but apologizing for the mistake is not enough apparently

Probably because the manner in which regret is expressed and by whom is important in a situation like this.

President Obama's reply letter in which he personally expresses his regret and states without ambiguity what he obviously intended to convey at the Medal of Freedom ceremony is attached at the bottom of President Komorowski's public response posted on his website.

http://www.president.pl/en/news/news...as-letter.html

Hopefully quoting it in full is not inappropriate here:

Friday, 1 June 2012

US President Barack Obama in a letter to Polish President Bronisław Komorowski wrote he had inadvertently used the phrase "Polish death camp" in his recent speech and expressed regret over the mistake.

President Bronisław Komorowski said on Friday that President Barack Obama's letter may be an important element of the struggle for historical truth. Thanks to the letter Poland has gained an important ally in its battle against wrongful qualifications, the president said.

"The events of the past few days and the US President's reply may, in my opinion, signify a very important moment in the struggle for historical truth," president Komorowski told a press conference. "With this letter Poland has gained an important ally in its battle against the misleading, wrongful and painful term 'Polish death camps'" the Polish president said.

"I am convinced that Polish state authorities and institutions, with special emphasis on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, will be able to take adequate stock of the US President's declaration in their further (...) struggle for the eradication of confusing, painful and untrue qualifications found in public language outside Poland," the President declared.

The following is the text of President Barack Obama's letter to President Bronisław Komorowski:

Thank you for your letter of May 30. I was proud to honor Jan Karski with the Medal of Freedom, our nations's highest civilian honor. My decision to do so was a reflection of the high esteem in which the American people hold not only a great Polish patriot, but the extraordinary sacrifices of the Polish people during the Nazi occupation of the Second World War.

In referring to "a Polish death camp" rather than " a Nazi death camp in German-occupied Poland," I inadvertently used the phrase that has caused many Poles anguish over the years and that Poland has rightly campaigned to eliminate from public discourse around the world. I regret the error and agree that this moment is an opportunity to ensure that this and future generations know the truth.

As we all know, the Polish people suffered terribly under the brutal Nazi occupation during World War II. In pursuit of their goals of destroying the Polish nation and Polish culture and exterminating European Jewry, the Nazis killed some six million Polish citizens, including three million Polish Jews during the Holocaust. The bravery of Poles in the underground resistance is one of history's great stories of heroism and courage.

Moreover, there simply were no "Polish death camps." The killing centers at Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Treblinka, and elsewhere in occupied Poland were built and operated by the Nazi regime. In contrast, many Poles risked their lives - and gave their lives - to save Jews from the Holocaust.

That is why I paid tribute to Polish victims of the Holocaust during my visit to the US Holocaust Memorial Museum in April. It is why I was honored to pay my respect at the Tomb of Unknown Soldier and the Monument to the Heroes of the Ghetto during my visit to Warsaw last year. An it is why, during the 65th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau in 201, I commended the government and people of Poland for preserving a place of such pain in order to promote remembrance and learning for the world.

I know well the bonds of friendship between our two countries. I was proud to welcome you to the NATO Summit in my home town of Chicago, which is home to the largest Polish community in the world outside Warsaw. As President, I have worked with you to strengthen the enduring ties between our nations so that our alliance is stronger than it has ever been.

Poland is one of America's strongest and closest allies. We stand united in facing the challenges of the 21st century in Europe and around the world, and I am confident that, working together, we can ensure that the unbreakable bonds of friendship and solidarity between us will only grow stronger in the days and years ahead. (PAP/ own information)

sarge · 1st June 2012, 10:39 AM

It stuns me that the President of Poland spends this much energy over a very minor gaffe - actually compeling a State Ministry to devote resources to "battle the wrongful blah, blah, blah".

There was a movie, a very funny movie, in the late 60s/early 70s about a nation that needed new plumbing for its palace. They invented a Space Program in order to bilk the necessary funds from America. This whole kerflufle feels as if it should have been produced by the same team of screenwriters.

Mycroft · 1st June 2012, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by sarge

It stuns me that the President of Poland spends this much energy over a very minor gaffe - actually compeling a State Ministry to devote resources to "battle the wrongful blah, blah, blah".

There was a movie, a very funny movie, in the late 60s/early 70s about a nation that needed new plumbing for its palace. They invented a Space Program in order to bilk the necessary funds from America. This whole kerflufle feels as if it should have been produced by the same team of screenwriters.

I know the book, haven't seen the movie. It's The Mouse on the Moon, which is a sequel to another cold-war farce The Mouse that Roared. Good reads, both of them.

Dragoonster · 1st June 2012, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

So they've been sensitive about it for a long time, and they've been telling people about it. It's a taboo in Poland.

But I don't see anything wrong with it, and the language of the term is correct, so obviously Poland and Poles should have no problem with it! Are they so stupid that they aren't even capable of having the same thoughts as I do?

It's like that time I was in India and killed a cow to make some nice BBQ and they were all outraged and doing other ridiculous to-do about nothing. Hadn't they ever learned that I have no problem eating cow meat? It's like they never gave a thought to what those outside their country think.

(I didn't apologize of course, as it was unnecessary as I did nothing wrong)

epepke · 1st June 2012, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by sarge

It stuns me that the President of Poland spends this much energy over a very minor gaffe - actually compeling a State Ministry to devote resources to "battle the wrongful blah, blah, blah".

It doesn't really stun me, but it is more than a bit anal.

That having been said, there appears to be no awareness of protocol whatsoever in the Obama White House.

Bluespaceoddity · 1st June 2012, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Who knows - If I see any statements I will definitely post them

"Thank you, President Obama. Truth, honor and the legacy of Karski satisfied. Please feel free to send us your staffers for re-education."
http://twitter.com/#!/sikorskiradek

... with that less than gracious last line attached to the end of a message posted -on what appears to be Minister of Foreign Affairs Sikorski's Twitter account- in response to President Obama's letter I can see what you meant with some of your objection expressed in the OP.

Bluespaceoddity · 2nd June 2012, 01:43 AM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Yes - but apologizing for the mistake is not enough apparently

Q Can you confirm that the President apologized in a letter to the Polish President about his use of the phrase "Polish death camps" and what was said in that letter?

MR. EARNEST: Well, as you know, Kate, I believe it was the President of Poland sent a letter to President Obama. I can confirm to you that President Obama did send a letter back. We typically are not in the habit of releasing correspondence between the President and other world leaders. But I can tell you that the way that you characterized the content of the letter in your question is not quite accurate.

Q So it wasn’t an apology?

MR. EARNEST: My understanding is that the letter was in line with other public statements that you've seen from this administration. But I don't have any specific words from that letter to read to you.

Q -- that it was his statement?

MR. EARNEST: Well, you've seen the things that we've said.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-...-en-route-minn

Moss · 2nd June 2012, 01:54 AM

Originally Posted by Bluespaceoddity

Q Can you confirm that the President apologized in a letter to the Polish President about his use of the phrase "Polish death camps" and what was said in that letter?

MR. EARNEST: Well, as you know, Kate, I believe it was the President of Poland sent a letter to President Obama. I can confirm to you that President Obama did send a letter back. We typically are not in the habit of releasing correspondence between the President and other world leaders. But I can tell you that the way that you characterized the content of the letter in your question is not quite accurate.

Q So it wasn’t an apology?

MR. EARNEST: My understanding is that the letter was in line with other public statements that you've seen from this administration. But I don't have any specific words from that letter to read to you.

Q -- that it was his statement?

MR. EARNEST: Well, you've seen the things that we've said.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-...-en-route-minn

That's one of the most evasive and vague statements I've read this week.

31st May 2012, 01:49 AM	#41
Caper Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,946	This whole joke is just another example of this..."I gotcha" culture we live in now. People constantly looking to be offensive... what a joke.
Caper Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,946

31st May 2012, 02:50 AM	#42
Stellafane Village Idiot. Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Green Mountains Posts: 6,267	Next time just say "Ich bin ein Polanski" or something.
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31st May 2012, 04:29 AM	#44
NoZed Avenger Bitter Whiner Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 11,313	This shouldn't be a huge deal, but it was an unforced error. Poland's dissatisfaction with the phrase is not new, and the speechifiers should have known better. It was an 'own goal.' Relations already had some strains -- such as the decision to scrap missiles in Poland (that, just for extra grins, was announced on the anniversary of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact). Polish leaders never liked that. They also probably are looking for some tit for tat -- Obama last year (? Whenever the visit to Poland was) refused to meet Lech Walesa one-on-one because he was too 'political'. Lech Walesa was put forward to accept the award this trip, but he was again shot down. I suspect the Polish government read that as another snub, and were looking for something to show their politicians can hold grudges as well as ours.
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31st May 2012, 04:55 AM	#46
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,936	I still fail to see how this is wrong. They were in Poland. The majority of those that died in them were Polish. That makes them "Polish Death Camps." It doesn't matter who ran the damn things. The distinction is made because the Nazi's were evil bastards all over the place but those particular manifestations of evil were in Poland. If Canada invaded the USA and set up death camps that killed Americans they could be correctly called "American Death Camps" even though evil Canucks ran them.
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31st May 2012, 05:53 AM	#49
NoZed Avenger Bitter Whiner Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 11,313	Originally Posted by tomwaits You've got it backwards. It was Lech Walesa that refused to meet Obama. No. He refused to go to a big group meeting because he requested a face-to-face meeting which the Obama people declined. It has been tit for tat the whole time between the two governments.
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31st May 2012, 03:19 AM	#43
Alan Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 3,652	Originally Posted by angrysoba Of course we all know that Obama "mis-spoke" as the irritating politicalese jargon has it. But you can't say that Obama did nothing wrong by "mis-speaking" when "mis-speaking" is, by definition doing something wrong. I think you might be equivocating wrong as in incorrect and wrong as in unethical.

31st May 2012, 04:36 AM	#45
tomwaits Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Chicago, IL, USA Posts: 2,288	Originally Posted by NoZed Avenger Obama last year (? Whenever the visit to Poland was) refused to meet Lech Walesa one-on-one because he was too 'political'. You've got it backwards. It was Lech Walesa that refused to meet Obama.

31st May 2012, 05:46 AM	#47
angrysoba Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 8,501	Originally Posted by Alan I think you might be equivocating wrong as in incorrect and wrong as in unethical. No, I'm saying he made a mistake rather than doing something evil. But if you say someone can't win sometimes it suggests a number of options which will be seized on by your opponents and criticized, often unjustly. I'm just saying that in this case he did actually do something wrong (i.e incorrect, a mistake etc...) so it is not as if the criticism is unjustified.

31st May 2012, 05:51 AM	#48
Bluespaceoddity Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 400	Originally Posted by Travis I still fail to see how this is wrong. They were in Poland. The majority of those that died in them were Polish. That makes them "Polish Death Camps." It doesn't matter who ran the damn things. The distinction is made because the Nazi's were evil bastards all over the place but those particular manifestations of evil were in Poland. If Canada invaded the USA and set up death camps that killed Americans they could be correctly called "American Death Camps" even though evil Canucks ran them. Fortunately President Obama knows that it matters and he will issue a new diplomatic directive to that effect shortly in his effort to further diffuse the current situation and to avoid recurrence. Fortunately President Komorowski has already stated that the mistake was not intentional as he reiterated how significant the distinction is. http://www.president.pl/en/news/news...ly-untrue.html

31st May 2012, 06:14 AM	#50
tomwaits Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Chicago, IL, USA Posts: 2,288	Originally Posted by NoZed Avenger No. He refused to go to a big group meeting because he requested a face-to-face meeting which the Obama people declined. It has been tit for tat the whole time between the two governments. Link? When asked about it, Walesa said this: Quote: It's difficult to tell journalists what you'd like to say to the president of a superpower. This time I won't tell him, I won't meet him, it doesn't suit me. No mention of what you allege.

31st May 2012, 06:39 AM	#51
Jeff Corey New York Skeptic Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,794	NSFW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mitF1kpMbvg
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31st May 2012, 08:04 AM	#52
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,936	Originally Posted by Bluespaceoddity Fortunately President Obama knows that it matters and he will issue a new diplomatic directive to that effect shortly in his effort to further diffuse the current situation and to avoid recurrence. Fortunately President Komorowski has already stated that the mistake was not intentional as he reiterated how significant the distinction is. http://www.president.pl/en/news/news...ly-untrue.html He shouldn't apologize because it wasn't a mistake. If they think less of him because of it then fine, let them.
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31st May 2012, 08:21 AM	#53
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,879	Much ado over nothing. There's not a single person in the world who would read Obama's comments as implying that the Poles and not the Nazis were running the concentration camps in Poland.
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31st May 2012, 08:47 AM	#54
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: In a world lit only by fire. Posts: 17,894	Originally Posted by Checkmite Much ado over nothing. There's not a single person in the world who would read Obama's comments as implying that the Poles and not the Nazis were running the concentration camps in Poland. [Looks round nervously, but can't see Clayton Moore] Dave
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31st May 2012, 09:08 AM	#55
sarge Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Fayetteville, NC Posts: 2,328	Originally Posted by Bluespaceoddity This exact sentence construction has been a big issue for decades so I think those who've expressed outrage are exactly as outraged as they appear to be. It was a major mistake. President Obama basically uttered the one phrase he should have avoided - especially during a ceremony designed to honor a Pole. Then I was wrong - the Poles really are that silly. It was a gaffe that should not generate much conversation. That it has so ruffled a nations feathers is indicative that the nation should collectively have a drink or something. I am ambivalent about Obama generally, but this was one grossly overblown incident.
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31st May 2012, 09:33 AM	#56
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	Originally Posted by Travis I still fail to see how this is wrong. They were in Poland. The majority of those that died in them were Polish. That makes them "Polish Death Camps." It doesn't matter who ran the damn things. The distinction is made because the Nazi's were evil bastards all over the place but those particular manifestations of evil were in Poland. If Canada invaded the USA and set up death camps that killed Americans they could be correctly called "American Death Camps" even though evil Canucks ran them. I would think of them as "Canadian Death Camps", just like I think of "Nazi Deathcamp" or "German Concentration Camps", and not "Jewish Concentration Camps". I am rather surprised to find that this term is actually being used - far less surprised that it seems to be only a minority of people using it.
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

31st May 2012, 09:37 AM	#57
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	Originally Posted by Checkmite Much ado over nothing. There's not a single person in the world who would read Obama's comments as implying that the Poles and not the Nazis were running the concentration camps in Poland. Well, I would. And then I would realize that he couldn't have possible meant that. So, debates over whether it was a mistake or not notwithstanding: Apo9logize, accept it, and be done with it.
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

31st May 2012, 11:57 AM	#58
NoZed Avenger Bitter Whiner Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 11,313	Originally Posted by tomwaits Link? When asked about it, Walesa said this: The early AP stories gave it as a reason: "Walesa refused to divulge more, but it seemed possible he was offended at not being offered a one-on-one meeting with Obama early on Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blu...#ixzz1wTW5nfhR But on review, it looks like the report was of a "possible" reason, and I had rememebered it as the reason being offered in the news accounts. Apparently the news stories mentioning it all were getting it from the AP report, and the AP report is equivocal at best, and making stuff up at worst, so I'll withdraw that. News stories did repeat the AP story at the time, and that was what I recalled seeing (without the "possible" wording). But I don't think that detail changes the point that the relations between the 2 powers already had some strains, and it looks like the Polish leaders are using this as a tit for tat kind of thing.
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31st May 2012, 05:27 PM	#59
NobbyNobbs Gazerbeam's Protege Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: The Mended Drum Posts: 5,630	Well, you have to understand, Obama was born in Kenya, which means English is his second language. He's bound to make an occasional mistake.
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31st May 2012, 07:34 PM	#60
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 5,939	Originally Posted by Checkmite Much ado over nothing. There's not a single person in the world who would read Obama's comments as implying that the Poles and not the Nazis were running the concentration camps in Poland. I saw dozens of anti Obama posters making this claim on AOL's comment section. I thought maybe I was seeing things.
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31st May 2012, 07:59 PM	#61
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers [Looks round nervously, but can't see Clayton Moore] Dave I think he is to busy polishing his libertarian socialist Nazi persona to bother with such mundane matters

31st May 2012, 10:01 PM	#62
Noztradamus Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,844	Originally Posted by Travis He shouldn't apologize because it wasn't a mistake. And yet his White House apologist has already said it was. Are you saying the White House lied?
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31st May 2012, 10:27 PM	#63
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 15,723	Originally Posted by MG1962 Either it is a slow news day in Poland, or at least one country in this world needs to get over itself. Originally Posted by Soapy Sam Well, Auschwitz was and is in Poland, which (in English) makes it a ' "Polish " death camp' Originally Posted by Travis I still fail to see how this is wrong. They were in Poland. The majority of those that died in them were Polish. That makes them "Polish Death Camps." It doesn't matter who ran the damn things. Perhaps some background would clarify: Quote: Usage of the term has been condemned as insulting by the Polish foreign minister Adam Daniel Rotfeld in 2005, who also alleged that it—intentionally or unintentionally—shifted the responsibility for the construction or operation of the camps from the German to the Polish people. The use of terms explicitly mentioning "Poland" or "Polish" has been monitored and discouraged by the Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Polonia organizations around the world as well as by all Polish governments since 1989. So they've been sensitive about it for a long time, and they've been telling people about it. It's a taboo in Poland. So naturally the Polish see it as what Obama himself might call "a teachable moment."
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1st June 2012, 01:19 AM	#64
Cain Straussian Join Date: May 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 6,934	So Obama thinks Polacks are Nazis.
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1st June 2012, 01:39 AM	#65
Bad Lieutenant Muse Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Cheltenham - England Posts: 612	Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan Yeah, I suspect the recent BBC Panorama investigation into the shocking levels of Neo-Nazism, racism and anti-Semitism in Polish and Ukrainian football games may have given this "blunder" a bit of weight to the Poles, who are busy denying that they have a problem despite videotaped evidence of massive sections of the crowd chanting racist things and shouting "Sieg Heil!" whilst pulling Nazi salutes. It's hard to deny. I reckon BO said it on purpose - the USA can't play in the Euros but they can sure get involved!

1st June 2012, 08:38 AM	#66
Bluespaceoddity Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 400	Originally Posted by MG1962 Yes - but apologizing for the mistake is not enough apparently Probably because the manner in which regret is expressed and by whom is important in a situation like this. President Obama's reply letter in which he personally expresses his regret and states without ambiguity what he obviously intended to convey at the Medal of Freedom ceremony is attached at the bottom of President Komorowski's public response posted on his website. http://www.president.pl/en/news/news...as-letter.html Hopefully quoting it in full is not inappropriate here: Friday, 1 June 2012 US President Barack Obama in a letter to Polish President Bronisław Komorowski wrote he had inadvertently used the phrase "Polish death camp" in his recent speech and expressed regret over the mistake. President Bronisław Komorowski said on Friday that President Barack Obama's letter may be an important element of the struggle for historical truth. Thanks to the letter Poland has gained an important ally in its battle against wrongful qualifications, the president said. "The events of the past few days and the US President's reply may, in my opinion, signify a very important moment in the struggle for historical truth," president Komorowski told a press conference. "With this letter Poland has gained an important ally in its battle against the misleading, wrongful and painful term 'Polish death camps'" the Polish president said. "I am convinced that Polish state authorities and institutions, with special emphasis on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, will be able to take adequate stock of the US President's declaration in their further (...) struggle for the eradication of confusing, painful and untrue qualifications found in public language outside Poland," the President declared. The following is the text of President Barack Obama's letter to President Bronisław Komorowski: Thank you for your letter of May 30. I was proud to honor Jan Karski with the Medal of Freedom, our nations's highest civilian honor. My decision to do so was a reflection of the high esteem in which the American people hold not only a great Polish patriot, but the extraordinary sacrifices of the Polish people during the Nazi occupation of the Second World War. In referring to "a Polish death camp" rather than " a Nazi death camp in German-occupied Poland," I inadvertently used the phrase that has caused many Poles anguish over the years and that Poland has rightly campaigned to eliminate from public discourse around the world. I regret the error and agree that this moment is an opportunity to ensure that this and future generations know the truth. As we all know, the Polish people suffered terribly under the brutal Nazi occupation during World War II. In pursuit of their goals of destroying the Polish nation and Polish culture and exterminating European Jewry, the Nazis killed some six million Polish citizens, including three million Polish Jews during the Holocaust. The bravery of Poles in the underground resistance is one of history's great stories of heroism and courage. Moreover, there simply were no "Polish death camps." The killing centers at Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Treblinka, and elsewhere in occupied Poland were built and operated by the Nazi regime. In contrast, many Poles risked their lives - and gave their lives - to save Jews from the Holocaust. That is why I paid tribute to Polish victims of the Holocaust during my visit to the US Holocaust Memorial Museum in April. It is why I was honored to pay my respect at the Tomb of Unknown Soldier and the Monument to the Heroes of the Ghetto during my visit to Warsaw last year. An it is why, during the 65th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau in 201, I commended the government and people of Poland for preserving a place of such pain in order to promote remembrance and learning for the world. I know well the bonds of friendship between our two countries. I was proud to welcome you to the NATO Summit in my home town of Chicago, which is home to the largest Polish community in the world outside Warsaw. As President, I have worked with you to strengthen the enduring ties between our nations so that our alliance is stronger than it has ever been. Poland is one of America's strongest and closest allies. We stand united in facing the challenges of the 21st century in Europe and around the world, and I am confident that, working together, we can ensure that the unbreakable bonds of friendship and solidarity between us will only grow stronger in the days and years ahead. (PAP/ own information)
	Last edited by Bluespaceoddity; 1st June 2012 at 08:52 AM.

1st June 2012, 10:39 AM	#67
sarge Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Fayetteville, NC Posts: 2,328	It stuns me that the President of Poland spends this much energy over a very minor gaffe - actually compeling a State Ministry to devote resources to "battle the wrongful blah, blah, blah". There was a movie, a very funny movie, in the late 60s/early 70s about a nation that needed new plumbing for its palace. They invented a Space Program in order to bilk the necessary funds from America. This whole kerflufle feels as if it should have been produced by the same team of screenwriters.
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1st June 2012, 12:46 PM	#68
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,105	Originally Posted by sarge It stuns me that the President of Poland spends this much energy over a very minor gaffe - actually compeling a State Ministry to devote resources to "battle the wrongful blah, blah, blah". There was a movie, a very funny movie, in the late 60s/early 70s about a nation that needed new plumbing for its palace. They invented a Space Program in order to bilk the necessary funds from America. This whole kerflufle feels as if it should have been produced by the same team of screenwriters. I know the book, haven't seen the movie. It's The Mouse on the Moon, which is a sequel to another cold-war farce The Mouse that Roared. Good reads, both of them.
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1st June 2012, 01:06 PM	#69
Dragoonster Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,583	Originally Posted by Puppycow So they've been sensitive about it for a long time, and they've been telling people about it. It's a taboo in Poland. But I don't see anything wrong with it, and the language of the term is correct, so obviously Poland and Poles should have no problem with it! Are they so stupid that they aren't even capable of having the same thoughts as I do? It's like that time I was in India and killed a cow to make some nice BBQ and they were all outraged and doing other ridiculous to-do about nothing. Hadn't they ever learned that I have no problem eating cow meat? It's like they never gave a thought to what those outside their country think. (I didn't apologize of course, as it was unnecessary as I did nothing wrong)

1st June 2012, 01:22 PM	#70
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	Originally Posted by sarge It stuns me that the President of Poland spends this much energy over a very minor gaffe - actually compeling a State Ministry to devote resources to "battle the wrongful blah, blah, blah". It doesn't really stun me, but it is more than a bit anal. That having been said, there appears to be no awareness of protocol whatsoever in the Obama White House.
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1st June 2012, 10:00 PM	#71
Bluespaceoddity Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 400	Originally Posted by MG1962 Who knows - If I see any statements I will definitely post them "Thank you, President Obama. Truth, honor and the legacy of Karski satisfied. Please feel free to send us your staffers for re-education." http://twitter.com/#!/sikorskiradek ... with that less than gracious last line attached to the end of a message posted -on what appears to be Minister of Foreign Affairs Sikorski's Twitter account- in response to President Obama's letter I can see what you meant with some of your objection expressed in the OP.

2nd June 2012, 01:43 AM	#72
Bluespaceoddity Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 400	Originally Posted by MG1962 Yes - but apologizing for the mistake is not enough apparently Q Can you confirm that the President apologized in a letter to the Polish President about his use of the phrase "Polish death camps" and what was said in that letter? MR. EARNEST: Well, as you know, Kate, I believe it was the President of Poland sent a letter to President Obama. I can confirm to you that President Obama did send a letter back. We typically are not in the habit of releasing correspondence between the President and other world leaders. But I can tell you that the way that you characterized the content of the letter in your question is not quite accurate. Q So it wasn’t an apology? MR. EARNEST: My understanding is that the letter was in line with other public statements that you've seen from this administration. But I don't have any specific words from that letter to read to you. Q -- that it was his statement? MR. EARNEST: Well, you've seen the things that we've said. http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-...-en-route-minn

2nd June 2012, 01:54 AM	#73
Moss Dramatocrat Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Heiligsblechle country Posts: 3,229	Originally Posted by Bluespaceoddity Q Can you confirm that the President apologized in a letter to the Polish President about his use of the phrase "Polish death camps" and what was said in that letter? MR. EARNEST: Well, as you know, Kate, I believe it was the President of Poland sent a letter to President Obama. I can confirm to you that President Obama did send a letter back. We typically are not in the habit of releasing correspondence between the President and other world leaders. But I can tell you that the way that you characterized the content of the letter in your question is not quite accurate. Q So it wasn’t an apology? MR. EARNEST: My understanding is that the letter was in line with other public statements that you've seen from this administration. But I don't have any specific words from that letter to read to you. Q -- that it was his statement? MR. EARNEST: Well, you've seen the things that we've said. http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-...-en-route-minn That's one of the most evasive and vague statements I've read this week.