Muslim country in the Middle East has highest rate of acid attacks on women

[ANTPogo]

Wait, did I say "Muslim country in the Middle East"? I meant to say Christian country in the Western Hemisphere.

I'm sorry, my fingers must have slipped.

[baron]

First of all, it says attacks "might" be higher in Colombia.

Then it states there were 42 reported attacks last year, yet they reported only last month that a single hospital in Pakistan saw one or two new cases every week http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17676542

So at a conservative estimate that's 60 cases a year in one Pakistani hospital alone. It's pretty difficult to reconcile a figure of 60 in a single hospital with 150 or less in the entire country. The reporting here is dire.

In Bangladesh official figures show 212 incidents in 2005 (latest), down from 366 in 2002. Even 212 is 165% more after population adjustment than the 42 quote from Colombia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_Su..._2005_and_2006

Once we've dealt with the figures we could then look at what inspires these attacks. In Colombia is it Christianity, or the result of Christian culture? No, I see no link whatsoever. Christianity does not mandate drug wars or mugging. Yet when a Pakistani man throws acid at a women for not covering her head, or pours acid into his daughter's face for being female or refusing an arranged marriage, that relates directly to religion-inspired culture and that religion is, in the main, Islam.

Here are some examples of Pakistani acid attack victims, including a 5-year old girl who had acid poured onto her face by her own father as she slept because he hadn't wanted another girl (NSFW - graphic) http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/alleye...-personal.html

[crimresearch]

Originally Posted by baron

First of all, it says attacks "might" be higher in Colombia.

Then it states there were 42 reported attacks last year, yet they reported only last month that a single hospital in Pakistan saw one or two new cases every week http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17676542

So at a conservative estimate that's 60 cases a year in one Pakistani hospital alone. It's pretty difficult to reconcile a figure of 60 in a single hospital with 150 or less in the entire country. The reporting here is dire.

In Bangladesh official figures show 212 incidents in 2005 (latest), down from 366 in 2002. Even 212 is 165% more after population adjustment than the 42 quote from Colombia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_Su..._2005_and_2006

Once we've dealt with the figures we could then look at what inspires these attacks. In Colombia is it Christianity, or the result of Christian culture? No, I see no link whatsoever. Christianity does not mandate drug wars or mugging. Yet when a Pakistani man throws acid at a women for not covering her head, or pours acid into his daughter's face for being female or refusing an arranged marriage, that relates directly to religion-inspired culture and that religion is, in the main, Islam.

Here are some examples of Pakistani acid attack victims, including a 5-year old girl who had acid poured onto her face by her own father as she slept because he hadn't wanted another girl (NSFW - graphic) http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/alleye...-personal.html

Riiiiight... nothing in Colombia's history suggests that their culture is in any way, shape, or form influenced by a specific religion... that's only for Mooozlum culture, right?



http://www.colombiareports.com/colom...ns-rights.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Colombia

[ANTPogo]

Originally Posted by baron

Then it states there were 42 reported attacks last year, yet they reported only last month that a single hospital in Pakistan saw one or two new cases every week http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17676542

So at a conservative estimate that's 60 cases a year in one Pakistani hospital alone. It's pretty difficult to reconcile a figure of 60 in a single hospital with 150 or less in the entire country. The reporting here is dire.

As the article notes, Pakistan also has four times the population of Colombia.

Quote:

Once we've dealt with the figures we could then look at what inspires these attacks. In Colombia is it Christianity, or the result of Christian culture? No, I see no link whatsoever. Christianity does not mandate drug wars or mugging. Yet when a Pakistani man throws acid at a women for not covering her head, or pours acid into his daughter's face for being female or refusing an arranged marriage, that relates directly to religion-inspired culture and that religion is, in the main, Islam.

So, when Pakistani men throw acid in women's faces, it's all because of Islam. But when Colombian men throw acid in women's faces it's because...why, again?

Responses like yours are exactly why I started this thread. Here we have, in Colombia, a country that has no connection to Islam whatsoever. And yet scores (probably hundreds, depending on how many unreported cases there are) of women there are horrifically assaulted by having acid thrown on them, while the men responsible for such attacks go virtually unpunished.

And all you can focus on is how Islam is the root cause of the similar problem in Pakistan and Bangladesh, minimizing and spinning away the the very same tragic epidemic in a Christian, Western country, because that you can't find a way to blame on Islam.

[baron]

Originally Posted by crimresearch

Riiiiight... nothing in Colombia's history suggests that their culture is in any way, shape, or form influenced by a specific religion... that's only for Mooozlum culture, right?



http://www.colombiareports.com/colom...ns-rights.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Colombia

Your links bear no relationship to what you said and what you said bears no relationship to what I wrote. Other than that, great post.

[I Ratant]

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

As the article notes, Pakistan also has four times the population of Colombia.



So, when Pakistani men throw acid in women's faces, it's all because of Islam. But when Colombian men throw acid in women's faces it's because...why, again?

...

.
I'd say lack of easy access to easy women... which is surely strange in Colombia!

[ehcks]

Why would any country have high rates of acid attacks on anyone?

Acid? Where do you even find cups of acid to throw at people?

[tomwaits]

Originally Posted by ehcks

Why would any country have high rates of acid attacks on anyone?

Well, someone has to have the "highest rate".

[Tony]

I'll never understand the urge some atheists have to come rushing to the defense of Islam as if it is some poor, misunderstood orphan.

[baron]

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

As the article notes, Pakistan also has four times the population of Colombia.

And as I said, I took population into account in the Bangladeshi figures. And the extrapolation of the 60-100 incidents in a single hospital means that you'd have to defy reason to come up with a figure which, when divided by 4 was less than 42 for the entire country.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

So, when Pakistani men throw acid in women's faces, it's all because of Islam. But when Colombian men throw acid in women's faces it's because...why, again?

It tells you why in the article. Mugging, control of population by armed groups, sexual violence by gangs and domestic violence by husbands. If you want to make a case for any of these being linked to Christian culture go ahead. Any such relationship is so tenuous as to be easily dismissed. I'm sure many a Pakistani man has thrown acid for reasons unrelated to Islam, but to deny the clear connection in many cases is to bury your head in the sand.

Originally Posted by ehcks

Why would any country have high rates of acid attacks on anyone?

Acid? Where do you even find cups of acid to throw at people?

Shops sell the stuff quite freely in these countries.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by ehcks

Acid? Where do you even find cups of acid to throw at people?

This is what I wonder. How the hell do these people come across cup sized portions of acid that they then can carry with them to their destination?

[Modified]

Originally Posted by Tony

This is what I wonder. How the hell do these people come across cup sized portions of acid that they then can carry with them to their destination?

It's pretty easy in the US. Just go into a home improvement store and buy the drain cleaner that comes in a bottle inside a sealed plastic bag.

[tomwaits]

Lye is readily available.

[baron]

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Responses like yours are exactly why I started this thread. Here we have, in Colombia, a country that has no connection to Islam whatsoever. And yet scores (probably hundreds, depending on how many unreported cases there are) of women there are horrifically assaulted by having acid thrown on them, while the men responsible for such attacks go virtually unpunished.

And all you can focus on is how Islam is the root cause of the similar problem in Pakistan and Bangladesh, minimizing and spinning away the the very same tragic epidemic in a Christian, Western country, because that you can't find a way to blame on Islam.

I missed this because you added it later.

No, you started this thread as a cheerleader for Islam. You're not interested in the tragedy of Colombian acid attacks otherwise you would have just started a thread about them. Instead you entitled the thread "Muslim country... has highest rate of acid attacks" and then went on to say, "Oh no, actually it's a Christian one." Aside from the fact your assertion is demonstrably wrong, I find capitalising on such tragedy in an effort to push your own Islamic agenda is pretty distasteful.

[Madalch]

Originally Posted by Tony

This is what I wonder. How the hell do these people come across cup sized portions of acid that they then can carry with them to their destination?

You wouldn't "come across" a cup-sized portion, you'd find a bottle and fill a cup. Wouldn't most mechanics have a quantity of battery acid on hand?

[Bikewer]

Quite aside from the mode of attack, it's been the case for a very long time that South American cultures have tolerated violence towards women. In Brazil, until only recently, homicides of women whos boyfriends or husbands suspected of infedelity were committed with almost complete impunity.
Likewise general domestic violence. Part of the culture of "machismo", according to the pundits.
In fact, this seems to be the case in much of the world; NPR ran a series of articles on the prevalence of spousal violence in Asian cultures.

[ANTPogo]

Originally Posted by baron

And as I said, I took population into account in the Bangladeshi figures. And the extrapolation of the 60-100 incidents in a single hospital means that you'd have to defy reason to come up with a figure which, when divided by 4 was less than 42 for the entire country.

"And according to the Dhaka-based Acid Survivors Foundation, Bangladesh, which has a population of 165 million compared with Colombia's 47 million, saw 84 attacks in 2011."

How about your figures now?

Quote:

It tells you why in the article. Mugging, control of population by armed groups, sexual violence by gangs and domestic violence by husbands. If you want to make a case for any of these being linked to Christian culture go ahead. Any such relationship is so tenuous as to be easily dismissed. I'm sure many a Pakistani man has thrown acid for reasons unrelated to Islam, but to deny the clear connection in many cases is to bury your head in the sand.

So, when it happens in a Christian country, there are a whole host of complex reasons behind it that have nothing to do with religion. But when it happens in a Muslim country, there's a very simple, direct explanation for it: religion.

The implication, of course, is if we could just get those countries to stop being Muslim, problems like acid attacks on women would then just go away.

And Colombia shows the giant, gaping flaw in that little theory.

Plus, I like how you so blithely describe what is the main reason for the acid attacks on women (as opposed to the separately-described use of acid in muggings) as "sexual violence by gangs and domestic violence by husbands", rather than using the term you'd use had these very same attacks been carried out for the very same reason by Muslims: honor violence.

It's a double standard. And, worse, when all the attention is focused on the religion of the attackers when the attacks are carried out by Muslims, the non-Muslim victims and perpetrators get completely ignored.

The problem isn't "Islam", it's attitudes towards women. Attitudes that are shared by and are the cause of problems in countries and cultures all over the world, both Muslim and non-Muslim.

[Madalch]

Originally Posted by Modified

It's pretty easy in the US. Just go into a home improvement store and buy the drain cleaner that comes in a bottle inside a sealed plastic bag.

Originally Posted by tomwaits

Lye is readily available.

While these are corrosive as all-get-out, these are strong bases, not acids.

[tomwaits]

Originally Posted by Madalch

While these are corrosive as all-get-out, these are strong bases, not acids.

Ok. But when people say "throw acid" or "acid attacks" they aren't really being technical about it, are they?

[Madalch]

Originally Posted by tomwaits

Ok. But when people say "throw acid" or "acid attacks" they aren't really being technical about it, are they?

They ought to be.

[tomwaits]

Saying there was a "corrosive substance attack" just doesn't have that same ring to it, though.

[baron]

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

"And according to the Dhaka-based Acid Survivors Foundation, Bangladesh, which has a population of 165 million compared with Colombia's 47 million, saw 84 attacks in 2011."

How about your figures now?

The figures are unchanged. You made the assertion that Colombia has more acid attacks than any other country, despite even the article not asserting this, so it's up to you to provide the evidence. So far, the only evidence you have come up with is an article saying it might be and another article, by the same agency the month before, demonstrating that it isn't.

But this doesn't even alter the argument. I could accept your assertion and, as Hitchens used to say, you still have all your work ahead of you.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

So, when it happens in a Christian country, there are a whole host of complex reasons behind it that have nothing to do with religion. But when it happens in a Muslim country, there's a very simple, direct explanation for it: religion.

So let's hear what these connections are. It's you who made the Christian connection, it's there in your first post, so explain what it is.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

The implication, of course, is if we could just get those countries to stop being Muslim, problems like acid attacks on women would then just go away.

Not the implication I've given, being that it's clear culture informed religion which informs culture, so simply getting rid of the religion wouldn't make any significant difference in the short term. It would be a start of course although it's a moot point being that it couldn't be done.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

And Colombia shows the giant, gaping flaw in that little theory.

No it doesn't, it's a nonsensical connection. The acid is relevant only as a comment on the callousness and barbarism of the perpetrators, it's the causes of the violence against women that's under discussion. The same causes you're about to describe with reference to their roots in Christian culture.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Plus, I like how you so blithely describe what is the main reason for the acid attacks on women (as opposed to the separately-described use of acid in muggings) as "sexual violence by gangs and domestic violence by husbands", rather than using the term you'd use had these very same attacks been carried out for the very same reason by Muslims: honor violence.

What is the honour element in mugging? What is the honour element in 'simple' domestic violence? Where is the honour element in rape and mutilation. Show your evidence that these crimes are honour-inspired, using the bastardised definition of the word.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

It's a double standard. And, worse, when all the attention is focused on the religion of the attackers when the attacks are carried out by Muslims, the non-Muslim victims and perpetrators get completely ignored.

The problem isn't "Islam", it's attitudes towards women. Attitudes that are shared by and are the cause of problems in countries and cultures all over the world, both Muslim and non-Muslim.

You really do take the cake. You cheerlead Islam, the greatest single source of the contemporary inequality, subjugation and degradation of women on the planet, then criticise me for daring the link the two.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by Tony

This is what I wonder. How the hell do these people come across cup sized portions of acid that they then can carry with them to their destination?

Any hardware store in the US.

6 quarts for $18.87 at Lowe's!

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by Madalch

They ought to be.

"Base attack" would just confuse people... I didn't know we had military bases in Colombia!

[Howie Felterbush]

Originally Posted by Madalch

You wouldn't "come across" a cup-sized portion, you'd find a bottle and fill a cup. Wouldn't most mechanics have a quantity of battery acid on hand?

Battery acid would be a pretty lame thing to attack someone with.

Unless the plan was to put a bunch of little holes in their jeans. It doesn't do any real instant damage to skin. I remember the first time I had a battery tip over on me while I was filling it. I thought it was going to be like the blood from the creature in Alien, bubbling and fizzing and eating through both me and the floor. It just wiped right off. I was a little bummed.

[MG1962]

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

So, when Pakistani men throw acid in women's faces, it's all because of Islam. But when Colombian men throw acid in women's faces it's because...why, again?

In Australia a ways back we had a real rash of these types of attacks. I suspect it was a case some twisted individual thought it was a good idea and a bunch of men with irrational grudges did copycat attacks

[Noztradamus]

Originally Posted by WildCat

"Base attack" would just confuse people... I didn't know we had military bases in Colombia!

All your base are belong to US

[crimresearch]

Originally Posted by baron

Your links bear no relationship to what you said and what you said bears no relationship to what I wrote. Other than that, great post.

Visiting that strip club in Bahrain again? You know, DeNile?

[James Fox]

What an idiotic tempest in a tea pot adolescent bating argument about whose religion in what hemisphere is the worst when it comes to violence toward women. Priceless.

[ANTPogo]

Originally Posted by baron

The figures are unchanged. You made the assertion that Colombia has more acid attacks than any other country, despite even the article not asserting this,

"Acid-throwing is more usually associated with violence against women in countries such as Bangladesh or Pakistan, but current trends suggest the risk of women being disfigured and blighted by acid might actually be higher in Colombia."

Quote:

So let's hear what these connections are. It's you who made the Christian connection, it's there in your first post, so explain what it is.

94.5% of the population in Colombia is Christian. 0.02% is Muslim.

Obviously it's not Islam that's causing men to throw acid on women all over the world, because it's prevalent even in countries that have no connection whatsoever to Islam. It's hard to get to correlation equals causation when you don't even have correlation.

Quote:

What is the honour element in mugging?

Who said there was? That's why both I and the article talk about acid mugging attacks separately from acid attacks against women.

Quote:

What is the honour element in 'simple' domestic violence? Where is the honour element in rape and mutilation. Show your evidence that these crimes are honour-inspired, using the bastardised definition of the word.

Because they result from machismo culture in Latin America. That's why Latin America also has its own "honor murder" problem - the so-called "honor defense" in criminal murder cases is still a part of the penal codes of Argentina, Ecuador, Guatemala, and Venezuela (and the report notes that even in countries like Brazil where the "honor defense" is not officially part of the penal code, it's still used in criminal trials and convictions are still sometimes overturned by higher courts of appeal, based on the use of the "honor defense" by defendants).

I didn't start this thread to try and make the point that Colombia is actually worse than Pakistan or Bangladesh or anything. I started this thread to highlight the fact that those people who are so loudly "concerned" about things like Muslim acid attacks on women don't really care about the "acid attacks on women" part. They only care about the "Muslim" part.

All those Colombian women blinded and disfigured in these attacks? Well, they're just on their own.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by WildCat

Any hardware store in the US.

6 quarts for $18.87 at Lowe's!

Thanks to WildCat and others. Having never been in the market for acid, I had no idea it was so easy to get.

[crimresearch]

Originally Posted by James Fox

What an idiotic tempest in a tea pot adolescent bating argument about whose religion in what hemisphere is the worst when it comes to violence toward women. Priceless.

Then quit bringing it up, and stick to the OP topic.

[baron]

Originally Posted by James Fox

What an idiotic tempest in a tea pot adolescent bating argument about whose religion in what hemisphere is the worst when it comes to violence toward women. Priceless.

I think it's very important to identify the causes of violence and subjugation of women, and to do so impartially and without kowtowing to any misguided notion of religious respect. The alternatives are to either dismiss the subject or to sink into the disingenuous bog of religious, cultural and moral relativism, neither of which is useful or honest.

[crimresearch]

Originally Posted by baron

I think it's very important to identify the causes of violence and subjugation of women, and to do so impartially and without kowtowing to any misguided notion of religious respect. The alternatives are to either dismiss the subject or to sink into the disingenuous bog of religious, cultural and moral relativism, neither of which is useful or honest.

If it so important, then what is your agenda in tossing around all these debate tricks to derail a thread where people are doing exactly that?

[ANTPogo]

Originally Posted by baron

I think it's very important to identify the causes of violence and subjugation of women, and to do so impartially and without kowtowing to any misguided notion of religious respect. The alternatives are to either dismiss the subject or to sink into the disingenuous bog of religious, cultural and moral relativism, neither of which is useful or honest.

All you have to do is compare the way the UN report linked above on the topic of violence against women talks about the worldwide causes and consequences of it, with the way people like Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller talk about it.

[baron]

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

"Acid-throwing is more usually associated with violence against women in countries such as Bangladesh or Pakistan, but current trends suggest the risk of women being disfigured and blighted by acid might actually be higher in Colombia."

Might be higher; current trends suggest. Again, the article does not back up your categoric assertion and neither does the data available elsewhere. But let's take a leap of faith and say you're right. Let's see what your point is...

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

94.5% of the population in Colombia is Christian. 0.02% is Muslim.

Obviously it's not Islam that's causing men to throw acid on women all over the world, because it's prevalent even in countries that have no connection whatsoever to Islam.

Anybody who suggests that Islam is the sole cause of acid attacks worldwide needs their head examined. I've not known anybody make that claim and for certain I have never done so.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

It's hard to get to correlation equals causation when you don't even have correlation.

How about this, which I must admit I thought I'd made clear: There are many gender-linked attacks on women worldwide. The methods used are multiple - fists, knives, guns, acid. The reasons are multiple too and include machismo culture, sexual dominance, control, revenge and yes, Islamic culture.

Now one of those we're not allowed to mention. Can you guess which it is?

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Who said there was? That's why both I and the article talk about acid mugging attacks separately from acid attacks against women.

I'd imagine that a man mugging a female would do so because she was an easy target, or perhaps to rape her afterwards, so we can't say they are totally separate.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Because they result from machismo culture in Latin America. That's why Latin America also has its own "honor murder" problem - the so-called "honor defense" in criminal murder cases is still a part of the penal codes of Argentina, Ecuador, Guatemala, and Venezuela (and the report notes that even in countries like Brazil where the "honor defense" is not officially part of the penal code, it's still used in criminal trials and convictions are still sometimes overturned by higher courts of appeal, based on the use of the "honor defense" by defendants).

Fine, so let's go with that. Let's say that X% of acid attacks in Latin America are down to the machismo culture and the concept of preservation of male honour. That's good, we've identified a source and as such I'm more than happy to condemn it and discuss ways in which it can be eradicated.

If only you'd do the same when it came to Islam and Islamic culture.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

People who are so loudly "concerned" about things like Muslim acid attacks aren't women don't care about the "acid attacks on women" part. They only care about the "Muslim" part.

Hang on a minute, it was you who entitled the thread "Muslim... Acid Attacks." If you had wanted to discuss the situation in Colombia why mention Muslims? You are doing the very thing you accuse others of and using these tragedies as a weapon in your fight to protect Islam from criticism.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

All those Colombian women blinded and disfigured in these attacks? Well, they're just on their own.

Hopefully Colombian women will be getting more help as a result of the research undertaken into the core problem and the steps taken to prevent it, and they may also take heart from the fact there are no queues of Western apologists lining up to defend these Colombian males as happens with their Muslim equivalents when Islam is at the root of things. Maybe one day Muslim women will be afforded the same basic courtesy so that their problems can be addressed.

[James Fox]

Originally Posted by crimresearch

Then quit bringing it up, and stick to the OP topic.

Originally Posted by baron

I think it's very important to identify the causes of violence and subjugation of women, and to do so impartially and without kowtowing to any misguided notion of religious respect. The alternatives are to either dismiss the subject or to sink into the disingenuous bog of religious, cultural and moral relativism, neither of which is useful or honest.

Culture, religion, misogyny, sexism and macho idiocy are clearly the factors that excuse, allow, and encourage acid attacks and many other forms of violence toward women. Reasonable discussions about these issues and how they are fostered in particular countries is certainly a valid and productive topic for discussion. It’s a shame the OP decided to ignore the real issues of violence toward women and opted instead for some kind of comparison critique that seems quite irrelevant to the OP’s stated topic of acid attacks toward women.

[baron]

Originally Posted by crimresearch

If it so important, then what is your agenda in tossing around all these debate tricks to derail a thread where people are doing exactly that?

Are you drunk?

[baron]

Originally Posted by James Fox

Culture, religion, misogyny, sexism and macho idiocy are clearly the factors that excuse, allow, and encourage acid attacks and many other forms of violence toward women. Reasonable discussions about these issues and how they are fostered in particular countries is certainly a valid and productive topic for discussion. It’s a shame the OP decided to ignore the real issues of violence toward women and opted instead for some kind of comparison critique that seems quite irrelevant to the OP’s stated topic of acid attacks toward women.

I agree. And if the subject had been couched in the terms you describe, and I described earlier, I would have been happy to never mention Islam or anything but the subject at hand. But as it is the OP has set the topic and that topic is flag-waving for Islam, which is why I chipped in.

[ANTPogo]

Originally Posted by baron

Hang on a minute, it was you who entitled the thread "Muslim... Acid Attacks." If you had wanted to discuss the situation in Colombia why mention Muslims? You are doing the very thing you accuse others of and using these tragedies as a weapon in your fight to protect Islam from criticism.

Because, as I've mentioned twice already (though one of those times was in an edit to the post you replied to), I started this thread to both publicize the fact that violence against women (even via such specific methods as acid attacks) is an endemic problem that cuts across all national, cultural, and religious boundaries, and to highlight the double standard and bigoted agenda of those people who like to meticulously document every single occurrence of crimes like this in a Muslim country or community, while completely ignoring its prevalence in countries and cultures where Islam isn't a factor.

Again, I refer you to the UN report I linked above. This story from Colombia will come as no surprise to anyone who's familiar with that report or the information in it. Anyone who gets all their news about acid attacks on women from places like Jihad Watch, though, will probably have no idea that hundreds of women in Latin America are suffering under the exact same kind of assault as the hundreds of women in Pakistan and Bangladesh.

And they'll probably have the same reaction you do: "Oh, Colombian men do this for a whole lot of different reasons, totally disconnected from their religion and culture. But Pakistani men still do it because of Islam!"