Sexual harassment at TAM?!

[RemieV]

Originally Posted by truethat

I saw Sun Countess's post in the nominated thread so I'm replying to that. I found the whole post like a walking blind spot. The woman did not share how she felt or her reaction. She didn't talk about her feelings, she blamed the guy for not being able to predict her feelings and accused men of all sorts of things.

You know just like your post just did.

As a woman I do not expect men to walk around on eggshells around me. I wear big girl panties and can handle BEING UNCOMFORTABLE. As someone who has deal with a lot of real issues in my life it comes across as pathetic and self victimizing when women want men to "listen to how they feel" but spend the entire opportunity to share that, berating them for not knowing it and basically NOT TELLING THEM. Then still getting mad because they don't know.

I'm sick of seeing women bitch and moan about men on this site, with no sense of human understanding or desire to build relationships that acknowledge the issues that both sides of the gender issue face not to mention the plethora of other issues faced by non binary gendered. For example men are typically EXPECTED to make the first move. And when men have said such comments to me in my life I have not fallen down in a collapse of desperation but simply side stepped it or let it be known I was not interested. Example "you're very kind but I'm married." or "you're very kind but I'm not interested in dating at TAM"

It is time that women grow up, speak what they mean and stop using insults and misandry with the justification that they are just "speaking their mind."


I saw a very young bar tender put off man who asked her for her phone number at work a few weeks ago. She said "Oh thanks but I can't do that."

Period the end. To me, I have to say it comes across as some women wishing they were victimized or something. If you were really ever victimized sexually I doubt very much you'd be making accusations that THIS kind of thing is sexual harassment.

The example I gave at the beginning of this thread was assault. The issues Rebecca is CURRENTLY complaining about are issues of assault.

[Cain]

Rebbeca, Rebecca, Rebecca. Please. Rebecca Watson is the Gloria Allred of skepticism.

Anyway...

Originally Posted by tsig

Real men don't pay. It's the thrill of the hunt, the excitement of the chase then the attainment of victory that makes it worth while/mansplainer off

I feel so sorry for George Clooney and world famous rock stars. They will never again get to enjoy the thrill of the chase. That's horrible. And I bet they'd instantly change places with some Quasimodo-lookin' mother-**********.

As the saying goes... You end up paying one way or another, and the cheapest snatch usually ends up costing you the most.

While there is something to the "thrill of the hunt," it basically all comes down to ego. One reason men seduce and **** is because they're seeking a measure of validation (and the same surely goes for a woman who will not sleep with just anybody).

Are you a man? Because I gotta say, unlike women, I get tired of all that "witty" banter back n' forth at the beginning stages. (Truly devious girlfriends do not show their displeasure by withholding sex. Oh no... they withhold good conversation. "Ack, I surrender! You're right -- Cirque du Soleil is not stupid. They ARE "AMAZING athletes" and I will immediately fish through my wallet to find my Visa card.

[truethat]

Originally Posted by RemieV

The example I gave at the beginning of this thread was assault. The issues Rebecca is CURRENTLY complaining about are issues of assault.

This is exactly what I mean. Someone saying something to you is not assault. It's INSULT. I found your original reply sexist IMO. You went and got people and expect people to "protect you" from men.

I don't get it. If someone is merely speaking to you and they are inappropriate and rude, say so to them and move on. You have not been assaulted.

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by Sun Countess

I honestly don't know how you'd get that impression if you'd read any of my posts in this thread. I have no problem with people hooking up, even people who are just meeting for the first time. I do have a problem with men that I've never met asking me if I'd like to give them a blowjob.

And yes, I fully get that it's my problem. I wear big girl panties, too, and I know how to deal with creepy men. I've had to do my fair share of it. As I've gotten older and wiser, I've learned that I can steer clear of places where that type of behavior is apparently acceptable.

Just be aware that a lot of other women feel the same way that I do - that it's just plain icky to be sexually propositioned by a random stranger who just happens to be standing next to you - especially if you were expecting to enjoy an evening of skepticism and intellectual camaraderie. And that if guys in this community say they would like more women to come to certain events, and continue to act in ways that make a large segment of women feel uncomfortable and unwelcome, and then blame the women for feeling uncomfortable and accuse them of hating men and hating sex, that they shouldn't be surprised if fewer women attend those events.

Not because we hate sex. Not because we don't think that random hook-ups between mutually-attracted people should be forbidden. But because sometimes there are better ways to spend your time and money than being surrounded by a handful of men who think it's totally okay to grope, leer at, or proposition women they've never met, and a larger roomful of people who tell you to "get over it" when you say one of the handful made you uncomfortable.

I cannot reconcile your post. It strikes me as contradictory. Random hook ups are okay but there are better ways a person could spend their time. I really have no idea what your position is. Your observations are anecdotal so I'll offer a counter. My wife has had a lot of men flirt with her. Even after we were married. She says not once has a stranger ever asked her for a blow job. Please forgive me if I don't take that serious.

Can we have a serious conversation?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally Posted by Sun Countess

How about: I've come to not like many members of the community, and I don't want to spend time with them. Is that a good enough reason for you?

I've come to not like many members of the community as well as leaders and so-called leaders and don't want to spend time with them. So when I go to Amaz!ng functions, I don't.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Now sure it would be nice if people only propositioned people who would be interested in such things, but as we don't even believe in psychics that is kind of impossible to know beforehand how they will react.

Well, one could try ******* talking to them for 5 minutes and getting to know something about them and gleaning whether they're amenable to such activities before propositioning them rather than just ******* assuming that everyone who attends a TAM is a sexual libertine looking for an anonymous or semi-anonymous roll in the hay.

[Lolly]

I haven't read the whole thread, but can somebody tell me whether this is the same Rebecca/group who threw the bordello party?

[truethat]

Originally Posted by Sun Countess

I honestly don't know how you'd get that impression if you'd read any of my posts in this thread. I have no problem with people hooking up, even people who are just meeting for the first time. I do have a problem with men that I've never met asking me if I'd like to give them a blowjob.

And yes, I fully get that it's my problem. I wear big girl panties, too, and I know how to deal with creepy men. I've had to do my fair share of it. As I've gotten older and wiser, I've learned that I can steer clear of places where that type of behavior is apparently acceptable.

Just be aware that a lot of other women feel the same way that I do - that it's just plain icky to be sexually propositioned by a random stranger who just happens to be standing next to you - especially if you were expecting to enjoy an evening of skepticism and intellectual camaraderie. And that if guys in this community say they would like more women to come to certain events, and continue to act in ways that make a large segment of women feel uncomfortable and unwelcome, and then blame the women for feeling uncomfortable and accuse them of hating men and hating sex, that they shouldn't be surprised if fewer women attend those events.

Not because we hate sex. Not because we don't think that random hook-ups between mutually-attracted people should be forbidden. But because sometimes there are better ways to spend your time and money than being surrounded by a handful of men who think it's totally okay to grope, leer at, or proposition women they've never met, and a larger roomful of people who tell you to "get over it" when you say one of the handful made you uncomfortable.

Get over it. The world is not a "safe space." Creeps and racists and other types of jerks exist out there. Yes it's awful to have someone make a hideous comment but it's not possible to monitor or control the behavior of everyone.

Being asked to give a blow job is just as insulting to me as hearing someone refer to another person as a N word or F word etc. If they did I'd turn on a dime and walk away.

I do not believe you that you went up to men at TAM after being asked to give a blow job by a random man and that the other men in the room told you to get over it. I would imagine most men would be shocked at such a thing. Unless you started blaming JREF for the man saying it, then they might say get over it.

I also fail to see how a man could "Shove his tongue" in several women's mouths. If a man I was talking to got that close to me at an event like this I'd walk away.

It comes across as expecting men to be knights in shining armor. To treat women as "special" and create a "safe space."

Here's an idea? Why don't you create your own safe space and not talk to people who would act in such a way.

Unless your argument is that several men at TAM acted this way (which isn't what is being said) I'm not sure why you think it's ok to expect the "men" at TAM to create a safe place, pretend to be outraged for your benefit and react for you. To me this is sexist.

[RandFan]

That's the line in the sand. If a woman says "no" and the man leaves at that, end of story. I don't give a damn if it is an elevator if it is between strangers. I'm sorry but all of the nonsense about if it's okay for strangers to hook up or whether or men can proposition women in an elevator, sorry. All I ask of men is that they take no for an answer. Don't hassle or harass. Leave it at that When a woman says "no" then that's it. End of story.

[RemieV]

Originally Posted by truethat

This is exactly what I mean. Someone saying something to you is not assault. It's INSULT. I found your original reply sexist IMO. You went and got people and expect people to "protect you" from men.

I don't get it. If someone is merely speaking to you and they are inappropriate and rude, say so to them and move on. You have not been assaulted.

Huh?

I'm referring to the guy who went around shoving his tongue in people's mouths, including mine. The thing that I relayed in my first response happened to some women I don't even know at an event I wasn't even at, so I honestly can't figure out where you're getting this. Also, they were groped by the guy - which is ALSO assault - so what on earth are you talking about again?

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by RemieV

Huh?

I'm referring to the guy who went around shoving his tongue in people's mouths, including mine. The thing that I relayed in my first response happened to some women I don't even know at an event I wasn't even at, so I honestly can't figure out where you're getting this. Also, they were groped by the guy - which is ALSO assault - so what on earth are you talking about again?

The guy in the elevator didn't shove his tongue into Rebecca's mouth. She said "no" and he move on.

[truethat]

Originally Posted by RandFan

I cannot reconcile your post. It strikes me as contradictory. Random hook ups are okay but there are better ways a person could spend their time. I really have no idea what your position is. Your observations are anecdotal so I'll offer a counter. My wife has had a lot of men flirt with her. Even after we were married. She says not once has a stranger ever asked her for a blow job. Please forgive me if I don't take that serious.

Can we have a serious conversation?

Thank you. I have not ever been asked to give a man a blow job. Never. Men treat me with respect pretty much whereever I go. I also make a point of mentioning I'm married and I carry myself in a way that demonstrates I am NOT interested.

When I have had flirtatious conversations with men and they've made "inappropriate" comments, like "Wow you have amazing eyes, if you weren't married damn" (not Can I have a blowjob) I will say "That's very kind of you, I'm quite devoted to my husband."

And when I walk away I will not go up all hot and outraged and disturbed that my safe space has been violated. This is mostly I think because as an actual victim of a sexual assault, I know this is not one. It's a man being either kind or flirtatious.

Originally Posted by RemieV

Huh?

I'm referring to the guy who went around shoving his tongue in people's mouths, including mine. The thing that I relayed in my first response happened to some women I don't even know at an event I wasn't even at, so I honestly can't figure out where you're getting this. Also, they were groped by the guy - which is ALSO assault - so what on earth are you talking about again?

So you are referring to one nut job and expected JREF to have controlled his behavior. He wasn't a member of JREF and shouldn't have been there and was asked to leave. And yet you still blame JREF??

What's puzzling to me is how a man shoves a tongue in your mouth. I'm going to sound bitchy here but how is this even possible? At an event when you are sitting having conversation how did he get close enough to you to do that? I'm floored. That is assault.

However the guy wasn't a member of JREF. Would you also blame JREF is you were attacked in the parking lot?

[tomwaits]

Well, you know what they say: women are from Omicron Persei 7, men are from Omicron Persei 9.

[RemieV]

Originally Posted by truethat

...

I also fail to see how a man could "Shove his tongue" in several women's mouths. If a man I was talking to got that close to me at an event like this I'd walk away.

It comes across as expecting men to be knights in shining armor. To treat women as "special" and create a "safe space."

Here's an idea? Why don't you create your own safe space and not talk to people who would act in such a way.

Unless your argument is that several men at TAM acted this way (which isn't what is being said) I'm not sure why you think it's ok to expect the "men" at TAM to create a safe place, pretend to be outraged for your benefit and react for you. To me this is sexist.

I think the expectation is for the organizers to actually do something about it. (Why you think 'men' when that is said is beyond me.) And yes - several men at TAM have "acted that way". That's the point.

Again - 'safe space' doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. Rebecca seemed to believe that TAM would be a 'safe space' because it is a place where critical thinkers gather, and therefore the expectation would be that it's a self-aware group that's progressive and yadda yadda yadda. This has really already been covered. Maybe you should read the thread.

As for how the tongue guy was able to do that - he was a forumite and hung out in the JREF chat room - as do I, which means that I thought of this person as a friend (as did all the other women that he 'got', so to speak). One of the women said she was expecting a kiss on the cheek, which she wouldn't have minded. He just switched course at the last second. For me, I think he said for me to lean in because he wanted to say something. I don't recall.

[RemieV]

Originally Posted by RandFan

The guy in the elevator didn't shove his tongue into Rebecca's mouth. She said "no" and he move on.

Which is why I'm not in the least talking about the elevator thing, and haven't been except to say "this still isn't about the *********** elevator thing". Truethat brought up the first post I made in this thread, which was neither about me, nor only about words.

The story that I DID bring up in a DIFFERENT comment when someone asked if I could personally name an incident where something 'bad' had happened to women - and I could, and did. It was a guy who went around shoving his tongue into several women's mouths.

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by truethat

Thank you. I have not ever been asked to give a man a blow job. Never. Men treat me with respect pretty much whereever I go. I also make a point of mentioning I'm married and I carry myself in a way that demonstrates I am NOT interested.

When I have had flirtatious conversations with men and they've made "inappropriate" comments, like "Wow you have amazing eyes, if you weren't married damn" (not Can I have a blowjob) I will say "That's very kind of you, I'm quite devoted to my husband."

And when I walk away I will not go up all hot and outraged and disturbed that my safe space has been violated. This is mostly I think because as an actual victim of a sexual assault, I know this is not one. It's a man being either kind or flirtatious.

Thank you.

I don't mind when men flirt with my wife. I would be very upset if they didn't move on after she said she was married and they pressured her for sexual favors. Men are human. They want sex. At the end of the day I have one request. Take no for an answer and move on.

Women, don't expect men to ignore their evolutionary prime objective to procreate. Expect them to take no for an answer. Rebecca should have advocated taking "no" for an answer. But then, the guy took "no" for an answer. BTW: I don't mind that she didn't like it. That's her prerogative. But she shouldn't expect that the world would bend to her will.

Men, take "no" for an answer.

[truethat]

I don't lean in to men or kiss them on the cheek if I've never met them before. What men at TAM have acted this way?

Seems to me a simple solution to this would be to publicly post the names of the men who acted this way.

Also as a greeting I can see how wires may get crossed with something like that, I don't necessarily consider that assault. I've been kissed full on the mouth by one of my mother's friends and while it creeped me out I don't consider it assault. Just different styles of people.

It comes across to me as a woman that you are making a mountain out of a molehill and perpetuating the victim status of women, women are the victims and men are the perpetrators. I've mentioned this many times on this site and I find it repulsive to be honest. It's a pet peeve of mine, so bear with me.

[RemieV]

Originally Posted by truethat

Thank you. I have not ever been asked to give a man a blow job. Never. Men treat me with respect pretty much whereever I go. I also make a point of mentioning I'm married and I carry myself in a way that demonstrates I am NOT interested.

When I have had flirtatious conversations with men and they've made "inappropriate" comments, like "Wow you have amazing eyes, if you weren't married damn" (not Can I have a blowjob) I will say "That's very kind of you, I'm quite devoted to my husband."

And when I walk away I will not go up all hot and outraged and disturbed that my safe space has been violated. This is mostly I think because as an actual victim of a sexual assault, I know this is not one. It's a man being either kind or flirtatious.



So you are referring to one nut job and expected JREF to have controlled his behavior. He wasn't a member of JREF and shouldn't have been there and was asked to leave. And yet you still blame JREF??

What's puzzling to me is how a man shoves a tongue in your mouth. I'm going to sound bitchy here but how is this even possible? At an event when you are sitting having conversation how did he get close enough to you to do that? I'm floored. That is assault.

However the guy wasn't a member of JREF. Would you also blame JREF is you were attacked in the parking lot?

Truethat, seriously, go back and re-read the comments. You are not reading for comprehension. There are multiple threads of conversation here, and for some reason you think I'm on one I'm not, and so does RandFan.

You would both benefit by reading the thread, I imagine.

The issues being discussed at this time:

- The fact that DJ said that complaints that women are making about skeptical conferences are 'rumors'.

- The fact that several women (none of whom were me) at the TAM 9 speakers reception were approached and groped by a man.

- The fact that there was a guy going around shoving his tongue in people's mouths at a TOTALLY DIFFERENT TAM (and it wasn't the same guy, either), and that's one of mine.

- The Elevator thing. Which really has little place in this discussion as it didn't even occur at TAM.

[RemieV]

Originally Posted by truethat

I don't lean in to men or kiss them on the cheek if I've never met them before. What men at TAM have acted this way?

Seems to me a simple solution to this would be to publicly post the names of the men who acted this way.

Also as a greeting I can see how wires may get crossed with something like that, I don't necessarily consider that assault. I've been kissed full on the mouth by one of my mother's friends and while it creeped me out I don't consider it assault. Just different styles of people.

It comes across to me as a woman that you are making a mountain out of a molehill and perpetuating the victim status of women, women are the victims and men are the perpetrators. I've mentioned this many times on this site and I find it repulsive to be honest. It's a pet peeve of mine, so bear with me.

Uh, no. In fact, I keep saying that the elevator crap isn't even an issue of feminism.

The guy with the tongue thing? No. He knew he was doing something wrong, and it wasn't a greeting. You can't make the situation alright by waving it away as a misinterpretation. Sorry. It was not a misinterpretation. You really should go back and actually read the comments. You think I have taken up a side that I have not, and that's going to make it real difficult to have a conversation.

[truethat]

You have an event with I'm assuming thousands of attendees over the years and in total THREE different things happened. The elevator thing was a joke so I'm not even going there. In addition. One of the men who behaved this way was NOT supposed to be there and was asked to leave.

So what I'm seeing really? Not to be rude but I'm seeing a bunch of women who chatted with a guy online, coming to an event and seeing him there and him THINKING he had the right to do such a thing. I'm seeing women letting him kiss them and leaning into physical space that allowed this happen.

I do agree that if it was intentional and sexual that it was assault.

But I'm not seeing anything that demonstrates that TAM hasn't created a safe space. I'm seeing one rogue nut job and several women who didn't maintain their own safe space.

Sun Goddess said someone asked her for a blow job. Who did that? Then she said when she told the other men there that they said "get over it" Who did that?

You have said several members of JREF (men) have acted this way? Is that true? I see ONE person acting this way in your example.

Names should be named in such a case. And reported and publicly noted.

[RemieV]

Originally Posted by truethat

You have an event with I'm assuming thousands of attendees over the years and in total THREE different things happened. The elevator thing was a joke so I'm not even going there. In addition. One of the men who behaved this way was NOT supposed to be there and was asked to leave.

So what I'm seeing really? Not to be rude but I'm seeing a bunch of women who chatted with a guy online, coming to an event and seeing him there and him THINKING he had the right to do such a thing. I'm seeing women letting him kiss them and leaning into physical space that allowed this happen.

I do agree that if it was intentional and sexual that it was assault.

But I'm not seeing anything that demonstrates that TAM hasn't created a safe space. I'm seeing one rogue nut job and several women who didn't maintain their own safe space.

Sun Goddess said someone asked her for a blow job. Who did that? Then she said when she told the other men there that they said "get over it" Who did that?

Again - reading comprehension. The elevator thing was not at TAM, nor do I believe it counts as a 'women's issue'.

It was intentional. Really. How many times do I need to say it? Just because you don't want to believe me doesn't mean it didn't happen. It isn't "chatting online" like a freaking singles club. Do you treat the JREF forum like a singles club? Absolutely nothing about previous conversations indicated this was going to happen. Not a thing.

These are not the only things that have happened, and I'm not going to violate anyone's trust by posting information about ones that occurred outside of my own experience - hell, nor am I going to post all of my own experiences. It isn't three in total; it isn't just one guy.

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by RemieV

Truethat, seriously, go back and re-read the comments. You are not reading for comprehension. There are multiple threads of conversation here, and for some reason you think I'm on one I'm not, and so does RandFan.

I'm honestly not sure what your position is. I thought I was primarily responding to sun goddess who is offended when strangers proposition her.

[RemieV]

Originally Posted by RandFan

I'm honestly not sure what your position is. I thought I was primarily responding to sun goddess who is offended when strangers proposition her.

RandFan, I am referring to the post where you quoted me and said that the guy in the elevator didn't shove his tongue in Rebecca's mouth. I know that. These are separate things.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally Posted by Sun Countess

I was hoping for more of the awesome multicultural diversity and less of the pompous blowhardiness from the skeptical community. Especially when some of the top male dogs were talking about how to get more women interested.

Like Penn Jilette?

[Lolly]

How is it that these guys are "going around" doing that? How does a guy get to the next woman when he's writhing on the floor after his nuts have been kneed into his pelvis, or while he's being interviewed by the cops?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally Posted by Moss

I don't think anyone has made that argument. I think the argument went more like "I assumed skeptical events were safe spaces in the LGBT/feminist meaning. Turns out I was wrong and they are just as problematic as other events/conferences which disappoints me."

But isn't that thinking just the same (though mirror opposite) as the "I assumed skeptical events were full of like minded sexual libertines like me who are up for anonymous boot knocking"?

[truethat]

Originally Posted by RemieV

Again - reading comprehension. The elevator thing was not at TAM, nor do I believe it counts as a 'women's issue'.

It was intentional. Really. How many times do I need to say it? Just because you don't want to believe me doesn't mean it didn't happen. It isn't "chatting online" like a freaking singles club. Do you treat the JREF forum like a singles club? Absolutely nothing about previous conversations indicated this was going to happen. Not a thing.

These are not the only things that have happened, and I'm not going to violate anyone's trust by posting information about ones that occurred outside of my own experience - hell, nor am I going to post all of my own experiences. It isn't three in total; it isn't just one guy.

Well that's the problem. Frankly I don't know why you don't out the guy. I mean you want the organization to create a safe space and you don't want to share with other women to beware of "Truethat" because he goes around sexually assaulting people?

You do take on a bit of responsibility for allowing someone to kiss you and move into your personal space. You don't seem young but for younger women I do want to mention the importance of that. Honoring your own personal space is very important.

(I told you I'm not mentioning the elevator A. because you keep saying it's not relevant and B. because it's stupid)

Who asked for blow jobs? You are using vague terms. How many men asked you for a blow job?

If not that, I'm sure tongue sticker was a random thing. Who else did things and how many of them and what kinds of things did they do that bothered you.

Originally Posted by Lolly

How is it that these guys are "going around" doing that? How does a guy get to the next woman when he's writhing on the floor after his nuts have been kneed into his pelvis, or while he's being interviewed by the cops?

This is kind of what I mean about women trying to perpetuate themselves as victims. This guy did this, she doesn't want to name names and he managed to get through several women apparently. I would have slapped that MOFO so hard his head would have spun and caused such a scene he wouldn't have done it again.

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by RemieV

RandFan, I am referring to the post where you quoted me and said that the guy in the elevator didn't shove his tongue in Rebecca's mouth. I know that. These are separate things.

Okay.

[RemieV]

Originally Posted by Lolly

How is it that these guys are "going around" doing that? How does a guy get to the next woman when he's writhing on the floor after his nuts have been kneed into his pelvis, or while he's being interviewed by the cops?

I'm not great with confrontation. My response was to cry. I didn't know there WERE any others until after TAM was over. I thought it was just one of those "Remie's crap luck" kind of things.

[zooterkin]

Originally Posted by TsarBomba

Who cares about employment law. A substantial part of my practice is in employment law, and in my opinion there is little, if anything, that can be learned from review of case authority or statues that would apply to TAM (except for harassment of JREF employees or pseudo-employees).

Well, the most famous TAM related statue I know is the horse's ass; it seems too many people are modelling their behaviour on that...

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally Posted by qayak

Why? Vegas is known for hook-ups. What about all the people who go there for an opportunity at no strings attached sexual adventures, they don't want to waste time with niceties? That they go there for TAM as well is irrelevant. When in Rome do as the Romans.

Perhaps it is time to change the venue of TAM to somewhere more worthy of the asexual behaviour you expect from skeptics.

This alludes back to something I've been discussing since my first post to this thread, something I've been thinking about ever since Skepchick_TM parties, etc.

Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner

Maybe this points to a systemic issue within the skeptic/atheist/freethought movement, and unfortunately one promulgated by some of the very people complaining now - the perception that all skeptics/atheists/freethinkers are sexual libertines up for anything from one night stands at conferences to orgies. That simply is not true, but it appears to be the 800 lb. white elephant in the elevator.

Would the "What happens in Vegas..." attitude manifest at TAMs if they were held in St. Louis, Dallas or Calgary?

I'd offer a comment about my observationd during the original TAM in Ft. Lauderdale, but there were only 300 attendees and being the first one, wouldn't be completely analagous to holding TAM XI in Indianapolis or even back in Ft. Lauderdale.

[RemieV]

Originally Posted by truethat

Well that's the problem. Frankly I don't know why you don't out the guy. I mean you want the organization to create a safe space and you don't want to share with other women to beware of "Truethat" because he goes around sexually assaulting people?

You do take on a bit of responsibility for allowing someone to kiss you and move into your personal space. You don't seem young but for younger women I do want to mention the importance of that. Honoring your own personal space is very important.

(I told you I'm not mentioning the elevator A. because you keep saying it's not relevant and B. because it's stupid)

Who asked for blow jobs? You are using vague terms. How many men asked you for a blow job?

If not that, I'm sure tongue sticker was a random thing. Who else did things and how many of them and what kinds of things did they do that bothered you.



This is kind of what I mean about women trying to perpetuate themselves as victims. This guy did this, she doesn't want to name names and he managed to get through several women apparently. I would have slapped that MOFO so hard his head would have spun and caused such a scene he wouldn't have done it again.

One more time for the reading comprehension. It wasn't me who said anything about blow jobs. That was Sun.

Again, I'm not going to put all of the things on here for a variety of reasons - probably the first one is "Well, that's not really any of your business." I mentioned the one because I know who it involved, one of those people was me, and I knew it wouldn't upset me if people decided to jump in and say that I was lying or making a big deal out of something that was nothing. There are ones that would. Therefore, I won't be posting those.

Why am I not giving names... *shrug* Because there's no reason to do that on the forum. The Powers That Be have been informed, and I don't see how posting the information here would be helpful.

[Kid Eager]

Originally Posted by Cain

Rebbeca, Rebecca, Rebecca. Please. Rebecca Watson is the Gloria Allred of skepticism.

Anyway...


I feel so sorry for George Clooney and world famous rock stars. They will never again get to enjoy the thrill of the chase. That's horrible. And I bet they'd instantly change places with some Quasimodo-lookin' mother-**********.

As the saying goes... You end up paying one way or another, and the cheapest snatch usually ends up costing you the most.

While there is something to the "thrill of the hunt," it basically all comes down to ego. One reason men seduce and **** is because they're seeking a measure of validation (and the same surely goes for a woman who will not sleep with just anybody).

Are you a man? Because I gotta say, unlike women, I get tired of all that "witty" banter back n' forth at the beginning stages. (Truly devious girlfriends do not show their displeasure by withholding sex. Oh no... they withhold good conversation. "Ack, I surrender! You're right -- Cirque du Soleil is not stupid. They ARE "AMAZING athletes" and I will immediately fish through my wallet to find my Visa card.

Why do you hate circuses?

[RemieV]

Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner

This alludes back to something I've been discussing since my first post to this thread, something I've been thinking about ever since Skepchick_TM parties, etc.



Would the "What happens in Vegas..." attitude manifest at TAMs if they were held in St. Louis, Dallas or Calgary?

I don't think it's the attitude. I think it's because there is very little control over a casino venue. Even if you throw someone out of the event, they can still stay on the premises. So, let's say that smacking someone on the butt becomes a bannable TAM offense. It wouldn't be a bannable South Point offense, and then you can't hang out in the public areas anymore without running into the person that you had banned from TAM.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Look, if you absolutely must have sex at a TAM and it absolutely cannot wait until you can actually say you're acquainted with the target person, literally all you need to do is walk out the front door of the hotel to the public sidewalk to one of the loitering gentlemen there and pick a card. There'll be a a photo and a phone number; and not only will the woman be a complete stranger to you, but she will absolutely welcome your proposition for sex no matter how "socially awkward" it is!

A salient point and a needed injection of humor. Kudos

[Lolly]

Originally Posted by RemieV

I'm not great with confrontation.

There's avoiding confrontation because you don't want to create a scene when somebody pushes in line at the shops, and then there's responding to an indecent assault. "Get your mitts off me, you [insert words of choice]" yelled at the top of your lungs should be sufficient.

There's more to this whole sorry mess than can be fixed by an online forum, or by the organizers of a conference.

It is bad enough that they have to be on the receiving end in the first place, but even more incredibly sad that young women aren't taught how to deal with being inappropriately touched.

[Moss]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but the assumption that everyone would and should be able to react to transgressive behavior with violence isn't exactly a good one to make. Just because you would be doing that doesn't mean that every other person is capable of it. Therefore dismissing what happened to them and how they reacted isn't a good reaction in cases where the victim already feels violated.
I can't speak from the perspective of a victim of sexual assault, but after having spoken with several people about their experience talking about it is often a problem even with close friends. Now combine that with a less well known authority, even if it is a well meaning one, and the immediacy of the assault. Seems like a not that small hurdle to me.

[RemieV]

Originally Posted by Lolly

There's avoiding confrontation because you don't want to create a scene when somebody pushes in line at the shops, and then there's responding to an indecent assault. "Get your mitts off me, you [insert words of choice]" yelled at the top of your lungs should be sufficient.

There's more to this whole sorry mess than can be fixed by an online forum, or by the organizers of a conference.

It is bad enough that they have to be on the receiving end in the first place, but even more incredibly sad that young women aren't taught how to deal with being inappropriately touched.

Well, somebody else did go over to the guy and threaten to smash his face into the bar if he didn't apologize right then. And he did apologize in an unwilling kind of way.

I'm just not great in that area. I could probably give reasons and all that, but it seems a silly direction to take it. At any rate, this is why there should be a formal system in place to deal with complaints. Some people don't feel safe about punching someone who's bigger than they are in the nose or whatever. But really - that would be a silly response as well. That just escalates the whole thing. The better route is to have organizers who are willing to not only have the policies, but to enforce them and make attendees feel like nothing bad will happen when/if they report the behavior.

[truethat]

Originally Posted by RemieV

One more time for the reading comprehension. It wasn't me who said anything about blow jobs. That was Sun.

Again, I'm not going to put all of the things on here for a variety of reasons - probably the first one is "Well, that's not really any of your business." I mentioned the one because I know who it involved, one of those people was me, and I knew it wouldn't upset me if people decided to jump in and say that I was lying or making a big deal out of something that was nothing. There are ones that would. Therefore, I won't be posting those.

Why am I not giving names... *shrug* Because there's no reason to do that on the forum. The Powers That Be have been informed, and I don't see how posting the information here would be helpful.

This comes across as learned helplessness and self victimization. I'm sorry this guy did this to you. And frankly you shouldn't be in the position of having to out anyone.

It's a bit of a balance. Obviously the persons that are in charge should create a safe environment to the best of their ability. However that can't monitor your space for you.

I'm older now than when I had my hey day of being a hotsy and I can assure you that even fatter, dumpier and bitchier than I ever was I still get hit on by men. The key is to not be afraid of confrontation by taking out the "victim" part of the whole thing.

What do you think a guy would do if our friend Tonguey McGee went up to a guy and kissed him like that? Why are you any different?

I will compromise a bit and point out I'm 5 11 and not shy and I do know the cycle of "shutting down" in the event that something like this would happen.

But honestly IMO this would be a place I would definitely anticipate getting picked up at, especially by a guy I spent a lot of time in Chat with. For many guys, meeting the JREF women is like a Trekkie meeting Uhura. It's like the girl of their dreams. They know what you like and your comments etc.

I can pretty much guarantee you that this kind of thing would not happen to me at JREF (many would have reasons of dislike) but also because I clearly send out the radar NOT INTERESTED. And I keep my boundaries.

Someone once told me a great thing to think of.

You can only draw boundaries around yourself, not other people.

Also I think it's wrong to suggest people did things like asking for blow jobs and sticking their tongue in your mouth and saying "Several men" did this when you won't say what they did.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally Posted by bookitty

Dear creep, perhaps you can answer this question.

Based on the research for your paper, when would it be appropriate for an office mate to hit on a new employee, on their first day, while in the elevator?

Thanks,
Princess

Both. It would however be inappropriate to continue asking her out after she spurns your offer.