GOD....damn you are incompetent

Warrior1461 · 2nd June 2012, 04:04 PM

In my path to me becoming a total agnostic jackoff. the one thing led me on this path was the Bible itself.

Where did it help me come to the conclusion that the Hebrew God does not exist.

Noah, the story of it. The common knowledge of it says that God flooded the entire earth because man was wicked. Not entirely, the scriptures go into more detail. It was because he sent angels down to watch over us, they got horny mated with the females and created a race of superbeings.Called the nephilim.

Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

He saw that somehow as a threat, even though he is all powerful and all knowing. So He decided to delete everything with a flood.

If He is so all knowing, would not in his all knowing power know that sending his angels down to earth would be a bad idea? SO in this story blows every thing that I was told about God. He in one story was made to look like a total incompetent frack-up. Why not just create some plague to wipe out the super-race.

Right there I just made up a better plan to solve a problem that God in is all knowingness should have not done in the first place. Me an imperfect being just did some armchair godding, and came up with a better plan.

Ever watch a film, and see some badly written scene where the hero or villain does something so stupid just to move the narrative along. Something so illogical that it either makes the hero or villain look stupid and causes the entire film to fall apart. Well story of Noah is that moment in the entire Bible.

The moment where everything falls apart.

Now this story does make more sense through the spectacles of the Ancient Alien theory. Now GOD is some super alien scientist, the flood is his way of covering his own ass because he is a total FRACK-UP.

Now the only way really that you can still follow the concept of the all knowing powerful God concept is ignore this story as hack writing where God was used to explain a real natural disaster, as other stories and archeological evidence supports there was a massive flood in the area of modern day Iraq.

Uncle Otto · 2nd June 2012, 04:28 PM

The easiest way to think about this is to keep in mind that God is supposedly all knowing and all powerful. If that is in fact the case, then he created mankind knowing exactly how everything was going to turn out. In other words, he knowingly and deliberately created imperfection, and then held his creation responsible for his own flawed handi-work.

So much for the perfect, all knowing and all powerful God.

God was very much created in the image of man.

Oh---have you looked at the Skeptic's Annotated Bible? Wonderful resource that---------

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/abs/long.htm

And yeah----reading the entire Bible was part of what made me turn the corner too. Welcome to the club friend.

Resume · 2nd June 2012, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Warrior1461

In my path to me becoming a total agnostic jackoff. the one thing led me on this path was the Bible itself.

In my path to becoming an atheist *******, I found the same.

Well, the atheist part; I was pretty much always an *******.

Roger Ramjets · 2nd June 2012, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Warrior1461

If He is so all knowing, would not in his all knowing power know that sending his angels down to earth would be a bad idea?

You have discovered what anybody who has properly read the Bible should have figured out - the God depicted therein is not all-knowing.

Certain characters in the Bible claim that God is all-knowing, all-powerful and/or all-loving, but He does not make these claims Himself, and there is scant evidence to support it. Is this a contradiction? Only if you assume that the words of every character in the Bible are literally true.

If every word of the Bible is literally true then it is full of implausibility and contradiction, but who would believe such a thing? Only those who are incredibly naive, or who want to believe so badly that they are willing to overlook the implausibilities and contradictions. We all know that people will change a story to suit a point they are making, embroider it to sound more interesting, or even just make up the whole thing. So why should the Bible be any different? Should you believe it just because someone told you to?

keale · 2nd June 2012, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

You have discovered what anybody who has properly read the Bible should have figured out - the God depicted therein is not all-knowing.

Certain characters in the Bible claim that God is all-knowing, all-powerful and/or all-loving, but He does not make these claims Himself, and there is scant evidence to support it. Is this a contradiction? Only if you assume that the words of every character in the Bible are literally true.

If every word of the Bible is literally true then it is full of implausibility and contradiction, but who would believe such a thing? Only those who are incredibly naive, or who want to believe so badly that they are willing to overlook the implausibilities and contradictions. We all know that people will change a story to suit a point they are making, embroider it to sound more interesting, or even just make up the whole thing. So why should the Bible be any different? Should you believe it just because someone told you to?

Thing is most people are born into their religion and add to that the cultural aspect. You have millions of armchair Christians that claim to be Christians while at the same time not attending church and never even reading the bible. They go by what they have been told and just accept it without thinking twice. Probably why they refer to followers as being part of the flock.

BStrong · 2nd June 2012, 08:38 PM

With me, it was my father that made it clear that the bible was (in his words) "written by some *******." (still had me attending catholic school though)

My father had one major problem with the bible - Lot - my father said that whoever wrote the story of Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah "had to be an *******" - I won't go farther with the explanation - there isn't even a bit of political correctness in what the old man would say.

Marduk · 2nd June 2012, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by Warrior1461

Now this story does make more sense through the spectacles of the Ancient Alien theory. Now GOD is some super alien scientist, the flood is his way of covering his own ass because he is a total FRACK-UP.

I disagree, I think the story makes perfect sense in its original version, the one where its preceeded by drought, pestilence and famine

yomero · 2nd June 2012, 11:50 PM

As is probably true of most Catholics, I never read The Bible, except for small passages mainly from the Gospels. It was the doctrine of Original Sin that started my departure from Catholicism and theism in general. I could not accept that a perfect, omnibenevolent god would devise such an unjust concept. I concluded that it wasn't true. Then, if there is no Original Sin, the incarnation of god as Christ becomes superfluous. The other attributes of a perfect god also seemed to be false. Unanswered prayers led me to think that there is no omnipotent god. As I learned a bit about science, (mostly biology), I realized that there was no need to invoke acts of god to explain any of the wonders of nature. I could then admit that I was an atheist.

Warrior1461 · 3rd June 2012, 12:14 AM

original sin started out as an egalitarian concept that we are all flawed, no one is more PURE than the other. I do think that the story of Eden is actually more about the start of civilization, the event when humans stopped being animals and became thinking people.

As a literary character, God is not that well written, the polythiestic religions of Egypt and Greece/Rome were better written and were more fleshed out. Each had back-stories, personalities and interacted with each other in a more deeper level.

Here we have the Bible much I do think of these issues come form the fact the book was BADLY translated. I laugh at the fundamentalists who are all KJV only. Last time I checked Jesus spoke Aramaic, Moses spoke Hebrew not medieval english.

Another think bugs me, God is supposed to be perfect, yet with the ten commandments He says no other gods before me because I am a jealous god. If any of you had a bf/gf with that much of a jealousy problem, kick them to the curb.

Marduk · 3rd June 2012, 01:27 AM

Originally Posted by Warrior1461

original sin started out as an egalitarian concept that we are all flawed, .

it started out as a legal concept where the family was obliged to make recompense for the crimes of its patriarch, sin is attested in Mesopotamia from 3000bce, sometimes the compensation required the children to be sold into slavery to cover their fathers debts
and worse

Quote:

The code (of Hammurabi) then regulates in clear and definite strokes the organization of society. The judge who blunders in a law case is to be expelled from his judgeship forever, and heavily fined. The witness who testifies falsely is to be slain. Indeed, all the heavier crimes are made punishable with death. Even if a man builds a house badly, and it falls and kills the owner, the builder is to be slain. If the owner's son was killed, then the builder's son is slain.

http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/...hammurabi.html

Originally Posted by Warrior1461

As a literary character, God is not that well written, the polythiestic religions of Egypt and Greece/Rome were better written and were more fleshed out. Each had back-stories, personalities and interacted with each other in a more deeper level.
.

Thats only if you see YHWH as a totally original character, he wasn't, he was a composite of many deities familiar to the Hebrews, mostly aspects drawn from the Mesopotamian and Canaanite pantheons, if you want his back story read about Enlil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlil

Originally Posted by Warrior1461

Another think bugs me, God is supposed to be perfect, yet with the ten commandments He says no other gods before me because I am a jealous god. If any of you had a bf/gf with that much of a jealousy problem, kick them to the curb.

that bit doesn't mean what you think it does, its not about having worshipped previous gods, its about current ones, to colour your metaphor, the g/f equivalent would be a woman you were dating who wasn't happy for you to see another woman at the same time, thats not abnormal
the use of "before" there, means "in front of", not "earlier"

psionl0 · 3rd June 2012, 01:27 AM

Originally Posted by Warrior1461

He says no other gods before me because I am a jealous god.

It does sound a little fatal attractionish.

Marduk · 3rd June 2012, 01:39 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

It does sound a little fatal attractionish.

be·fore
preposition
1.
previous to; earlier or sooner than: Phone me before noon.

2.
in front of; ahead of; in advance of: his shadow advancing before him; She stood before the window.

3.
ahead of; in the future of; awaiting: The golden age is before us.

4.
in preference to; rather than: They would die before surrendering.

5.
in precedence of, as in order or rank: We put freedom before wealth.

psionl0 · 3rd June 2012, 01:51 AM

err . . . . if you say so.

Marduk · 3rd June 2012, 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

err . . . . if you say so.

thats not me saying so thats a dictionary

The admonition is about worshipping Gods instead of YHWH, its not about worshipping gods before YHWH existed, that the statement exists at all is because pretty much everyone apart from the Hebrews were polytheists, so its a warning for newbie monotheists.

Its also a priestly tool of control, if you worship other gods, you give power to that deities priests

gabeygoat · 3rd June 2012, 02:00 AM

Originally Posted by Warrior1461

I

Why not just create some plague to wipe out the super-race.

or just highlight them with his celestial mouse and click the delete button =]

psionl0 · 3rd June 2012, 02:10 AM

Originally Posted by Marduk

its not about worshipping gods before YHWH existed . . .

Obviously! Otherwise it would not be about jealousy.

Come to think of it however, it would be a really fatal attraction if one was insanely jealous of past lovers.

Noztradamus · 3rd June 2012, 03:22 AM

Yeah, but He's had the job like, forever. Things were easier to supervise when it was without form and void. Now it's gotten complicated.

Duffy Moon · 3rd June 2012, 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by gabeygoat

or just highlight them with his celestial mouse and click the delete button =]

It's not as simple as that.

He'd have to reset the universe to factory settings, so he'd want to back up some of the stuff he'd already done, then reset.

If course, he'd then have to reinstall all of his apps and change some of the settings from the defaults.

It can all be a bit tedious.

C_Felix · 3rd June 2012, 05:26 AM

I see your problem: You're applying logic to the Bible.

That is all.

psionl0 · 3rd June 2012, 05:50 AM

Originally Posted by C_Felix

I see your problem: You're applying logic to the Bible.

That is all.

As someone who doesn't want to be disadvantaged in the next life (assuming there is one), that has been a critical question for me:

"Can the illogical be logical?"

Beerina · 3rd June 2012, 07:11 AM

God's screwed up and fully or partially rebooted things at least 4 times:

1. Kicking Adam and Eve out of Eden
2. Noah's flood, followed shortly by
3. Tower of Babel
4. Jesus

All due to poor design and an inability to forsee problems. Also, the solutions are clumsy and laden with fraudulent propaganda. Everyone except Noah's family was evil? Every one, including newly-born babies? Really?

Moon-Spinner · 3rd June 2012, 07:18 AM

I'm always amused by this one: When asked about the validity of stories in the Bible, some true believers will say "But what possible motivation would the ancient authors have for writing the stories if it wasn't TRUE?"

Do they ever stop and listen to themselves?

PS: Don't answer that last question, I think we all know the answer to that

Elypsis44 · 3rd June 2012, 08:41 AM

I came to this conclusion when I was a child and I was told that God condemned me, Jesus wanted to save me, yet they were the same being.

I Ratant · 3rd June 2012, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

err . . . . if you say so.

.
It's doesn't say he's the only one, it says he's #1 when grouped with all of them.

I Ratant · 3rd June 2012, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Duffy Moon

It's not as simple as that.

He'd have to reset the universe to factory settings, so he'd want to back up some of the stuff he'd already done, then reset.

If course, he'd then have to reinstall all of his apps and change some of the settings from the defaults.

It can all be a bit tedious.

.
I just had to to most of that.
"Tedious" is being kind to the effort needed!

I Ratant · 3rd June 2012, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

God's screwed up and fully or partially rebooted things at least 4 times:

1. Kicking Adam and Eve out of Eden
2. Noah's flood, followed shortly by
3. Tower of Babel
4. Jesus

All due to poor design and an inability to forsee problems. Also, the solutions are clumsy and laden with fraudulent propaganda. Everyone except Noah's family was evil? Every one, including newly-born babies? Really?

.
And all the fluffy bunnies.

tsig · 3rd June 2012, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
I just had to to most of that.
"Tedious" is being kind to the effort needed!

I just did that 3 months ago. Luckily I had backed up my important data on dried wood pulp marked with ink.

Marduk · 3rd June 2012, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
It's doesn't say he's the only one, it says he's #1 when grouped with all of them.

Quote:

Father Ted: (praying) "...you who are most forgiving of all gods..."

Bishop Brennan: "'All gods'? What other gods would there be, Crilly?"

Father Ted: (thinking) "....false gods?"

ExMinister · 3rd June 2012, 11:13 AM

I had a little trouble when I reached the part of the Adam and Eve story where God says they will surely die and they didn't, and had to stop when I got to the Tower of Babel where humanity was actually getting along and God saw that as a bad thing. So a few pages into Genesis and it was all over for me.

Since then I have read the whole Bible. It never did get better, but at least I was no longer expecting it to.

Marduk · 3rd June 2012, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by ExMinister

I had a little trouble when I reached the part of the Adam and Eve story where God says they will surely die and they didn't,

he did in the version I read

Quote:

5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died

obviously thats quite a lot younger than he would lasted if it hadnt been for the evil woman.

Originally Posted by ExMinister

and had to stop when I got to the Tower of Babel where humanity was actually getting along and God saw that as a bad thing.

That bit makes a lot more sense in the original polytheistic version where the chief deity Enlil's jealous brother Enki confuses the speech of mankind because he's jealous of his siblings success
Most of the bible stories that exist in earlier versions only make sense in a polytheistic setting, like where the flood God Enlil decides to wash mankind from the Earth, it isn't him who warns the flood hero to build a boat, again, its his brother. Or the original Job, where its two Gods tormenting a human to see which of them he will curse first, the winner then gives him back all that he lost.

Jorghnassen · 3rd June 2012, 12:09 PM

Well, of course God is incompetent, for he is omnipotent, thus that includes the ability of incompetence. That also means he can be infinitely lazy.

I Ratant · 3rd June 2012, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Marduk

he did in the version I read

obviously thats quite a lot younger than he would lasted if it hadnt been for the evil woman.

That bit makes a lot more sense in the original polytheistic version where the chief deity Enlil's jealous brother Enki confuses the speech of mankind because he's jealous of his siblings success
Most of the bible stories that exist in earlier versions only make sense in a polytheistic setting, like where the flood God Enlil decides to wash mankind from the Earth, it isn't him who warns the flood hero to build a boat, again, its his brother. Or the original Job, where its two Gods tormenting a human to see which of them he will curse first, the winner then gives him back all that he lost.

.
I enjoy Gilgamesh.. especially after encountering him in Silverberg's "Gilgamesh in Hell" series.
"Job" is downright confusing. It is friggin' awful.. and yet it brags about the horrors that Job was assaulted with, on a -bet-!
Sumbitch god told that story to somebody?
As a life lesson?
It's the best presentation of fiction in the book.

GIBHOR · 3rd June 2012, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Warrior1461

If He is so all knowing, would not in his all knowing power know that sending his angels down to earth would be a bad idea? .

it was not HIS angels that came down to earth, and much less did HE send them down to earth. That angels were demons, fallen angels.

http://www.keepbelieving.com/sermon/...ent-the-Flood/

Marduk · 3rd June 2012, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by GIBHOR

it was not HIS angels that came down to earth, and much less did HE send them down to earth. That angels were demons, fallen angels.

http://www.keepbelieving.com/sermon/...ent-the-Flood/

It would probably help if you had actually read the book of Enoch before attempting to comment on it

Quote:

CHAP. 67.—And in those days the voice of God was with me, and he said to me: “Noah, behold thy portion has ascended to me, a portion without blame, a portion of love and of rectitude. 2. And now the angels are making a wooden building, and when they are gone to that work, I will lift up my hands upon it and will preserve it; and out of it will be [i.e. come] the seed of life, and a change will come so that the earth does not remain empty

Because as you can see, the text states quite clearly that God sent the angels to earth to construct a wooden building. It was while they were on the Earth that they became tempted by the flesh, hence their fall. The only demons mentioned in the text are the spirits of fallen giants, they of course being the offspring produced by the union of women and angels

pakeha · 3rd June 2012, 02:32 PM

Hmm.
KJV says it differently:

Quote:

And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.

It doesn't say anything about demons there, GIBHOR.

catsmate1 · 3rd June 2012, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
I enjoy Gilgamesh.. especially after encountering him in Silverberg's "Gilgamesh in Hell" series.

I liked him in Timewyrm: Genesis. Complete with visiting gods and a Neanderthal sidekick.

Ladewig · 3rd June 2012, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by Marduk

the original Job, where its two Gods tormenting a human to see which of them he will curse first, the winner then gives him back all that he lost.

Thank you for all your posts. I had often wondered how any modern person could look at that story and say "yes, God, in an effort to win a contest, lifted His mantle of protection knowing full well the children would be killed, but He later gave Job the same number of children so that evens things out.¹" But taken in the context of the time, that was a perfectly acceptable point of view.

Lot is another story that should be taken in context. The sin is not homosexuality, the sin that should be avoided is letting people under your roof come to harm.

......................
(1) Technically it is implied that Job came out ahead on the deal because the new daughters were much prettier than the old ones.

Marduk · 3rd June 2012, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

Thank you for all your posts. I had often wondered how any modern person could look at that story and say "yes, God, in an effort to win a contest, lifted His mantle of protection knowing full well the children would be killed, but He later gave Job the same number of children so that evens things out.¹" But taken in the context of the time, that was a perfectly acceptable point of view.

(1) Technically it is implied that Job came out ahead on the deal because the new daughters were much prettier than the old ones.

The afflictions are just aimed at the man in the original, there is no mention of a family.
http://www.piney.com/BabTabuBel.html

C_Felix · 3rd June 2012, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

As someone who doesn't want to be disadvantaged in the next life (assuming there is one), that has been a critical question for me:

"Can the illogical be logical?"

I'm gonna take the easy way out and bastardize a quote from Doyle/Holmes, "When you've eliminated all the other possibilities, whatever is left, how untrue or illogical it might be, is the truth."

So....I'm sure in the crazy world of ours, I'm sure at one point each of us would be able to find a an illogical truth based on elimination of all other possibilities.

ExMinister · 3rd June 2012, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by Marduk

he did in the version I read

obviously thats quite a lot younger than he would lasted if it hadnt been for the evil woman.

That bit makes a lot more sense in the original polytheistic version where the chief deity Enlil's jealous brother Enki confuses the speech of mankind because he's jealous of his siblings success
Most of the bible stories that exist in earlier versions only make sense in a polytheistic setting, like where the flood God Enlil decides to wash mankind from the Earth, it isn't him who warns the flood hero to build a boat, again, its his brother. Or the original Job, where its two Gods tormenting a human to see which of them he will curse first, the winner then gives him back all that he lost.

Oh that's interesting about the Job story and the flood story, Marduk. I only know a little about the polytheistic stories of the surrounding people at the time, so it is very interesting to see that parallels like that exist.

In fact, the other story that tripped me up before I put it down the first time was God's preference for Abel's animal sacrifice over Cain's more humane one. (And I have been told that I misunderstood. The point was that Abel's offering was more valuable. Whatever. My 2012 idea of a loving God just does not include one who desires animal sacrifice in any form, whatever the value.)

So you can see I really made it a long way into the book before I got disgusted.

2nd June 2012, 04:04 PM	#1
Warrior1461 Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 255	GOD....damn you are incompetent In my path to me becoming a total agnostic jackoff. the one thing led me on this path was the Bible itself. Where did it help me come to the conclusion that the Hebrew God does not exist. Noah, the story of it. The common knowledge of it says that God flooded the entire earth because man was wicked. Not entirely, the scriptures go into more detail. It was because he sent angels down to watch over us, they got horny mated with the females and created a race of superbeings.Called the nephilim. Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. He saw that somehow as a threat, even though he is all powerful and all knowing. So He decided to delete everything with a flood. If He is so all knowing, would not in his all knowing power know that sending his angels down to earth would be a bad idea? SO in this story blows every thing that I was told about God. He in one story was made to look like a total incompetent frack-up. Why not just create some plague to wipe out the super-race. Right there I just made up a better plan to solve a problem that God in is all knowingness should have not done in the first place. Me an imperfect being just did some armchair godding, and came up with a better plan. Ever watch a film, and see some badly written scene where the hero or villain does something so stupid just to move the narrative along. Something so illogical that it either makes the hero or villain look stupid and causes the entire film to fall apart. Well story of Noah is that moment in the entire Bible. The moment where everything falls apart. Now this story does make more sense through the spectacles of the Ancient Alien theory. Now GOD is some super alien scientist, the flood is his way of covering his own ass because he is a total FRACK-UP. Now the only way really that you can still follow the concept of the all knowing powerful God concept is ignore this story as hack writing where God was used to explain a real natural disaster, as other stories and archeological evidence supports there was a massive flood in the area of modern day Iraq.
	Last edited by Warrior1461; 2nd June 2012 at 04:11 PM. Reason: new stuff

2nd June 2012, 05:42 PM	#3
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,038	Originally Posted by Warrior1461 In my path to me becoming a total agnostic jackoff. the one thing led me on this path was the Bible itself. In my path to becoming an atheist *****, I found the same. Well, the atheist part; I was pretty much always an *****.
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,038

2nd June 2012, 07:59 PM	#4
Roger Ramjets Muse Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 717	Originally Posted by Warrior1461 If He is so all knowing, would not in his all knowing power know that sending his angels down to earth would be a bad idea? You have discovered what anybody who has properly read the Bible should have figured out - the God depicted therein is not all-knowing. Certain characters in the Bible claim that God is all-knowing, all-powerful and/or all-loving, but He does not make these claims Himself, and there is scant evidence to support it. Is this a contradiction? Only if you assume that the words of every character in the Bible are literally true. If every word of the Bible is literally true then it is full of implausibility and contradiction, but who would believe such a thing? Only those who are incredibly naive, or who want to believe so badly that they are willing to overlook the implausibilities and contradictions. We all know that people will change a story to suit a point they are making, embroider it to sound more interesting, or even just make up the whole thing. So why should the Bible be any different? Should you believe it just because someone told you to?
Roger Ramjets Muse Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 717	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

2nd June 2012, 08:15 PM	#5
keale Muse Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 813	Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets You have discovered what anybody who has properly read the Bible should have figured out - the God depicted therein is not all-knowing. Certain characters in the Bible claim that God is all-knowing, all-powerful and/or all-loving, but He does not make these claims Himself, and there is scant evidence to support it. Is this a contradiction? Only if you assume that the words of every character in the Bible are literally true. If every word of the Bible is literally true then it is full of implausibility and contradiction, but who would believe such a thing? Only those who are incredibly naive, or who want to believe so badly that they are willing to overlook the implausibilities and contradictions. We all know that people will change a story to suit a point they are making, embroider it to sound more interesting, or even just make up the whole thing. So why should the Bible be any different? Should you believe it just because someone told you to? Thing is most people are born into their religion and add to that the cultural aspect. You have millions of armchair Christians that claim to be Christians while at the same time not attending church and never even reading the bible. They go by what they have been told and just accept it without thinking twice. Probably why they refer to followers as being part of the flock.
keale Muse Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 813

2nd June 2012, 11:50 PM	#8
yomero Muse Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: North of here South of there Posts: 931	As is probably true of most Catholics, I never read The Bible, except for small passages mainly from the Gospels. It was the doctrine of Original Sin that started my departure from Catholicism and theism in general. I could not accept that a perfect, omnibenevolent god would devise such an unjust concept. I concluded that it wasn't true. Then, if there is no Original Sin, the incarnation of god as Christ becomes superfluous. The other attributes of a perfect god also seemed to be false. Unanswered prayers led me to think that there is no omnipotent god. As I learned a bit about science, (mostly biology), I realized that there was no need to invoke acts of god to explain any of the wonders of nature. I could then admit that I was an atheist.
	__________________ And although I'm not often ''amazed'' these days, I am frequently appalled, but that may be simply because reality keeps upping the ante.- ''The Word Detective'', Evan Morris.

2nd June 2012, 04:28 PM	#2
Uncle Otto Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 356	The easiest way to think about this is to keep in mind that God is supposedly all knowing and all powerful. If that is in fact the case, then he created mankind knowing exactly how everything was going to turn out. In other words, he knowingly and deliberately created imperfection, and then held his creation responsible for his own flawed handi-work. So much for the perfect, all knowing and all powerful God. God was very much created in the image of man. Oh---have you looked at the Skeptic's Annotated Bible? Wonderful resource that--------- http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/abs/long.htm And yeah----reading the entire Bible was part of what made me turn the corner too. Welcome to the club friend.

2nd June 2012, 08:38 PM	#6
BStrong Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: California Posts: 3,827	With me, it was my father that made it clear that the bible was (in his words) "written by some *****." (still had me attending catholic school though) My father had one major problem with the bible - Lot - my father said that whoever wrote the story of Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah "had to be an *****" - I won't go farther with the explanation - there isn't even a bit of political correctness in what the old man would say.

2nd June 2012, 10:51 PM	#7
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by Warrior1461 Now this story does make more sense through the spectacles of the Ancient Alien theory. Now GOD is some super alien scientist, the flood is his way of covering his own ass because he is a total FRACK-UP. I disagree, I think the story makes perfect sense in its original version, the one where its preceeded by drought, pestilence and famine

3rd June 2012, 12:14 AM	#9
Warrior1461 Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 255	original sin started out as an egalitarian concept that we are all flawed, no one is more PURE than the other. I do think that the story of Eden is actually more about the start of civilization, the event when humans stopped being animals and became thinking people. As a literary character, God is not that well written, the polythiestic religions of Egypt and Greece/Rome were better written and were more fleshed out. Each had back-stories, personalities and interacted with each other in a more deeper level. Here we have the Bible much I do think of these issues come form the fact the book was BADLY translated. I laugh at the fundamentalists who are all KJV only. Last time I checked Jesus spoke Aramaic, Moses spoke Hebrew not medieval english. Another think bugs me, God is supposed to be perfect, yet with the ten commandments He says no other gods before me because I am a jealous god. If any of you had a bf/gf with that much of a jealousy problem, kick them to the curb.

3rd June 2012, 01:27 AM	#10
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by Warrior1461 original sin started out as an egalitarian concept that we are all flawed, . it started out as a legal concept where the family was obliged to make recompense for the crimes of its patriarch, sin is attested in Mesopotamia from 3000bce, sometimes the compensation required the children to be sold into slavery to cover their fathers debts and worse Quote: The code (of Hammurabi) then regulates in clear and definite strokes the organization of society. The judge who blunders in a law case is to be expelled from his judgeship forever, and heavily fined. The witness who testifies falsely is to be slain. Indeed, all the heavier crimes are made punishable with death. Even if a man builds a house badly, and it falls and kills the owner, the builder is to be slain. If the owner's son was killed, then the builder's son is slain. http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/...hammurabi.html Originally Posted by Warrior1461 As a literary character, God is not that well written, the polythiestic religions of Egypt and Greece/Rome were better written and were more fleshed out. Each had back-stories, personalities and interacted with each other in a more deeper level. . Thats only if you see YHWH as a totally original character, he wasn't, he was a composite of many deities familiar to the Hebrews, mostly aspects drawn from the Mesopotamian and Canaanite pantheons, if you want his back story read about Enlil http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlil Originally Posted by Warrior1461 Another think bugs me, God is supposed to be perfect, yet with the ten commandments He says no other gods before me because I am a jealous god. If any of you had a bf/gf with that much of a jealousy problem, kick them to the curb. that bit doesn't mean what you think it does, its not about having worshipped previous gods, its about current ones, to colour your metaphor, the g/f equivalent would be a woman you were dating who wasn't happy for you to see another woman at the same time, thats not abnormal the use of "before" there, means "in front of", not "earlier"
	Last edited by Marduk; 3rd June 2012 at 01:37 AM.

3rd June 2012, 01:27 AM	#11
psionl0 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°58'S 115°57'E Posts: 4,791	Originally Posted by Warrior1461 He says no other gods before me because I am a jealous god. It does sound a little fatal attractionish.

3rd June 2012, 01:39 AM	#12
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by psionl0 It does sound a little fatal attractionish. be·fore preposition 1. previous to; earlier or sooner than: Phone me before noon. 2. in front of; ahead of; in advance of: his shadow advancing before him; She stood before the window. 3. ahead of; in the future of; awaiting: The golden age is before us. 4. in preference to; rather than: They would die before surrendering. 5. in precedence of, as in order or rank: We put freedom before wealth.

3rd June 2012, 01:51 AM	#13
psionl0 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°58'S 115°57'E Posts: 4,791	err . . . . if you say so.

3rd June 2012, 01:55 AM	#14
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by psionl0 err . . . . if you say so. thats not me saying so thats a dictionary The admonition is about worshipping Gods instead of YHWH, its not about worshipping gods before YHWH existed, that the statement exists at all is because pretty much everyone apart from the Hebrews were polytheists, so its a warning for newbie monotheists. Its also a priestly tool of control, if you worship other gods, you give power to that deities priests
	Last edited by Marduk; 3rd June 2012 at 01:59 AM.

3rd June 2012, 02:00 AM	#15
gabeygoat Muse Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hard Corvallis, Oregon Posts: 668	Originally Posted by Warrior1461 I Why not just create some plague to wipe out the super-race. or just highlight them with his celestial mouse and click the delete button =]

3rd June 2012, 02:10 AM	#16
psionl0 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°58'S 115°57'E Posts: 4,791	Originally Posted by Marduk its not about worshipping gods before YHWH existed . . . Obviously! Otherwise it would not be about jealousy. Come to think of it however, it would be a really fatal attraction if one was insanely jealous of past lovers.

3rd June 2012, 03:22 AM	#17
Noztradamus Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,869	Yeah, but He's had the job like, forever. Things were easier to supervise when it was without form and void. Now it's gotten complicated.
	__________________ The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping.

3rd June 2012, 05:19 AM	#18
Duffy Moon Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Coventry, UK Posts: 1,598	Originally Posted by gabeygoat or just highlight them with his celestial mouse and click the delete button =] It's not as simple as that. He'd have to reset the universe to factory settings, so he'd want to back up some of the stuff he'd already done, then reset. If course, he'd then have to reinstall all of his apps and change some of the settings from the defaults. It can all be a bit tedious.

3rd June 2012, 05:26 AM	#19
C_Felix Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Right outside Raleigh, NC Posts: 1,041	I see your problem: You're applying logic to the Bible. That is all.
	__________________ No, his mind is not for rent To any god or government. Always hopeful, yet discontent, He knows changes aren't permanent, But change is.

3rd June 2012, 05:50 AM	#20
psionl0 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°58'S 115°57'E Posts: 4,791	Originally Posted by C_Felix I see your problem: You're applying logic to the Bible. That is all. As someone who doesn't want to be disadvantaged in the next life (assuming there is one), that has been a critical question for me: "Can the illogical be logical?"

3rd June 2012, 07:11 AM	#21
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	God's screwed up and fully or partially rebooted things at least 4 times: 1. Kicking Adam and Eve out of Eden 2. Noah's flood, followed shortly by 3. Tower of Babel 4. Jesus All due to poor design and an inability to forsee problems. Also, the solutions are clumsy and laden with fraudulent propaganda. Everyone except Noah's family was evil? Every one, including newly-born babies? Really?
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

3rd June 2012, 07:18 AM	#22
Moon-Spinner Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Within a star too far to dream of Posts: 1,485	I'm always amused by this one: When asked about the validity of stories in the Bible, some true believers will say "But what possible motivation would the ancient authors have for writing the stories if it wasn't TRUE?" Do they ever stop and listen to themselves? PS: Don't answer that last question, I think we all know the answer to that

3rd June 2012, 08:41 AM	#23
Elypsis44 Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 3,456	I came to this conclusion when I was a child and I was told that God condemned me, Jesus wanted to save me, yet they were the same being.
Elypsis44 Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 3,456

3rd June 2012, 09:04 AM	#24
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by psionl0 err . . . . if you say so. . It's doesn't say he's the only one, it says he's #1 when grouped with all of them.

3rd June 2012, 09:06 AM	#25
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by Duffy Moon It's not as simple as that. He'd have to reset the universe to factory settings, so he'd want to back up some of the stuff he'd already done, then reset. If course, he'd then have to reinstall all of his apps and change some of the settings from the defaults. It can all be a bit tedious. . I just had to to most of that. "Tedious" is being kind to the effort needed!

3rd June 2012, 09:07 AM	#26
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by Beerina God's screwed up and fully or partially rebooted things at least 4 times: 1. Kicking Adam and Eve out of Eden 2. Noah's flood, followed shortly by 3. Tower of Babel 4. Jesus All due to poor design and an inability to forsee problems. Also, the solutions are clumsy and laden with fraudulent propaganda. Everyone except Noah's family was evil? Every one, including newly-born babies? Really? . And all the fluffy bunnies.

3rd June 2012, 09:32 AM	#27
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,791	Originally Posted by I Ratant . I just had to to most of that. "Tedious" is being kind to the effort needed! I just did that 3 months ago. Luckily I had backed up my important data on dried wood pulp marked with ink.

3rd June 2012, 09:37 AM	#28
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by I Ratant . It's doesn't say he's the only one, it says he's #1 when grouped with all of them. Quote: Father Ted: (praying) "...you who are most forgiving of all gods..." Bishop Brennan: "'All gods'? What other gods would there be, Crilly?" Father Ted: (thinking) "....false gods?"

3rd June 2012, 11:13 AM	#29
ExMinister RSL Acolyte Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 2,749	I had a little trouble when I reached the part of the Adam and Eve story where God says they will surely die and they didn't, and had to stop when I got to the Tower of Babel where humanity was actually getting along and God saw that as a bad thing. So a few pages into Genesis and it was all over for me. Since then I have read the whole Bible. It never did get better, but at least I was no longer expecting it to.
ExMinister RSL Acolyte Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 2,749	__________________ www.stopsylvia.com

3rd June 2012, 11:33 AM	#30
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by ExMinister I had a little trouble when I reached the part of the Adam and Eve story where God says they will surely die and they didn't, he did in the version I read Quote: 5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died obviously thats quite a lot younger than he would lasted if it hadnt been for the evil woman. Originally Posted by ExMinister and had to stop when I got to the Tower of Babel where humanity was actually getting along and God saw that as a bad thing. That bit makes a lot more sense in the original polytheistic version where the chief deity Enlil's jealous brother Enki confuses the speech of mankind because he's jealous of his siblings success Most of the bible stories that exist in earlier versions only make sense in a polytheistic setting, like where the flood God Enlil decides to wash mankind from the Earth, it isn't him who warns the flood hero to build a boat, again, its his brother. Or the original Job, where its two Gods tormenting a human to see which of them he will curse first, the winner then gives him back all that he lost.

3rd June 2012, 12:09 PM	#31
Jorghnassen Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The realm of ideas Posts: 3,881	Well, of course God is incompetent, for he is omnipotent, thus that includes the ability of incompetence. That also means he can be infinitely lazy.
	__________________ "Help control the local pet population: teach your dog abstinence." -Stephen Colbert "My dad believed laughter is the best medicine. Which is why several of us died of tuberculosis."- Unknown source, heard from Grey Delisle on Rob Paulsen's podcast

3rd June 2012, 01:41 PM	#32
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by Marduk he did in the version I read obviously thats quite a lot younger than he would lasted if it hadnt been for the evil woman. That bit makes a lot more sense in the original polytheistic version where the chief deity Enlil's jealous brother Enki confuses the speech of mankind because he's jealous of his siblings success Most of the bible stories that exist in earlier versions only make sense in a polytheistic setting, like where the flood God Enlil decides to wash mankind from the Earth, it isn't him who warns the flood hero to build a boat, again, its his brother. Or the original Job, where its two Gods tormenting a human to see which of them he will curse first, the winner then gives him back all that he lost. . I enjoy Gilgamesh.. especially after encountering him in Silverberg's "Gilgamesh in Hell" series. "Job" is downright confusing. It is friggin' awful.. and yet it brags about the horrors that Job was assaulted with, on a -bet-! Sumbitch god told that story to somebody? As a life lesson? It's the best presentation of fiction in the book.

3rd June 2012, 02:00 PM	#33
GIBHOR Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,978	Originally Posted by Warrior1461 If He is so all knowing, would not in his all knowing power know that sending his angels down to earth would be a bad idea? . it was not HIS angels that came down to earth, and much less did HE send them down to earth. That angels were demons, fallen angels. http://www.keepbelieving.com/sermon/...ent-the-Flood/
GIBHOR Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,978

3rd June 2012, 02:29 PM	#34
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by GIBHOR it was not HIS angels that came down to earth, and much less did HE send them down to earth. That angels were demons, fallen angels. http://www.keepbelieving.com/sermon/...ent-the-Flood/ It would probably help if you had actually read the book of Enoch before attempting to comment on it Quote: CHAP. 67.—And in those days the voice of God was with me, and he said to me: “Noah, behold thy portion has ascended to me, a portion without blame, a portion of love and of rectitude. 2. And now the angels are making a wooden building, and when they are gone to that work, I will lift up my hands upon it and will preserve it; and out of it will be [i.e. come] the seed of life, and a change will come so that the earth does not remain empty Because as you can see, the text states quite clearly that God sent the angels to earth to construct a wooden building. It was while they were on the Earth that they became tempted by the flesh, hence their fall. The only demons mentioned in the text are the spirits of fallen giants, they of course being the offspring produced by the union of women and angels

3rd June 2012, 02:32 PM	#35
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,010	Hmm. KJV says it differently: Quote: And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown. It doesn't say anything about demons there, GIBHOR.
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,010	__________________ To a conspiracy theorist, having double standards just means that they have twice as many standards. carlitos