Gulp! NYC Mayor Proposes Super-Sized Soda Ban.

[geni]

Originally Posted by Xulld

Really? So you think its a productivity issue, fat people dont produce enough?

Lost time due to a greater propensity to illness is indeed a problem.

Quote:

And all those costs in making larger subway seats is killing us?

It is clearly a no optimum use of transport floorspace. Once you factor in all the things that have to be ajusted there is a significant total cost.

[LTC8K6]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/05/ny...policy.html?hp

This will make up for it.

[SezMe]

Originally Posted by The Dark Lord

Diet soda is horrible.

Nail. Head.

[Beerina]

Originally Posted by carlitos

The city of Chicago did this many years ago and the soft drink manufacturers pulled their annual convention from McCormick Place. Brilliant.

And you're actually not talking about sugar in American soft drinks, you're talking about high fructose corn syrup, which is artificially cheap due to bad agricultural policies driven by midwestern states. It's crazy; we subsidize the growth of corn to make HFCS, give agribusiness all these breaks to make it, keep the price of real sugar artificially high to appease the sugar barons in Florida, and now local governments are going to tax corn syrup at the consumer level. Can't someone draw this into a simple diagram and show it to a politician somewhere?

High-fructose corn syrup may itself be a bogeyman. It's just 55% fructose as opposed to 50% for "normal" sugar. It's fruit sugar.

[mikeyx]

Originally Posted by Babbylonian

I think that I hate the term "nanny state," but this proposal fits that bill. I further believe that unless the measure affects all establishments selling big tubs of soda (such as convenience stores - not affected by the proposed "ban"), it's unfair and very suspect right from the start. Are 7-11's Big Gulps more healthy than a similar-sized soda at a movie theater?

The bottom line is that anyone with even half a brain knows that sugary soda is an unhealthy drink. They also know that drinking more of it worse than drinking a little of it. If, knowing that, they decide to drink 32 ounces of it on a regular basis, that's their business and not that of the Mayor of New York or even the Department of Health. They can force businesses to use warning labels on large cups (I'm very cool with this), they can probably levy extra "sin" taxes on them (I can't think of a reason to be against this, though I do drink soda), but banning them seems way out of line to me.

all forms of smoking should be banned, the soda ban, meh.....

[NewtonTrino]

This kind of stuff undermines respect for the law in the same way as a drug / alcohol prohibition. It's very counter productive IMHO.

What authority does the state derive the power to ban certain sizes of soda?

[JJM 777]

Originally Posted by The Dark Lord

Diet soda is horrible.

Coke Zero rules. Its taste is absolutely perfect.

[Segnosaur]

Originally Posted by JJM 777

You can always buy two smaller instead of one big bottle, so I don´t see how this law helps or bothers anyone.

Its a bother because buying 2 smaller drinks is usually more expensive than buying a single large drink. (And some of us do sometimes share drinks with our significant other when at a movie. So if our city enacted the same ban it would cost us more money, even if we didn't drink any more than we were.)

[Xulld]

Originally Posted by geni

Lost time due to a greater propensity to illness is indeed a problem.



It is clearly a no optimum use of transport floorspace. Once you factor in all the things that have to be ajusted there is a significant total cost.

Productivity should only be the concern of the business paying the wage of the worker. If government did not restrict businesses hiring and firing decisions this artificial problem would not exist. If businesses fired all of the fat people they would lose overall production. In a perfect world lots of things are more efficient, we do not live in that world.

[Psi Baba]

Originally Posted by carlitos

And you're actually not talking about sugar in American soft drinks, you're talking about high fructose corn syrup, which is artificially cheap due to bad agricultural policies driven by midwestern states. It's crazy; we subsidize the growth of corn to make HFCS, give agribusiness all these breaks to make it, keep the price of real sugar artificially high to appease the sugar barons in Florida, and now local governments are going to tax corn syrup at the consumer level. Can't someone draw this into a simple diagram and show it to a politician somewhere?

This is the crux of the whole problem right here in a nutshell.

Originally Posted by Beerina

High-fructose corn syrup may itself be a bogeyman. It's just 55% fructose as opposed to 50% for "normal" sugar. It's fruit sugar.

The difference is more complicated than that, but the larger part of the problem is that corn is so cheap it's practically free, and food manufacturers load HFCS into everything, more as a bulk filler than as a sweetener. Sugar was actually once used that way when it was cheap, but to a lesser degree. So even if the idea that HFCS may be worse for your health than sugar has not been disproven, the real issue is the quantity being used in foods. But no one wants to address that issue since corn subsidies are apparently sacrosanct. Telling Americans to use less corn has about the same effect as telling us to use less gasoline.

[kookbreaker]

Originally Posted by JJM 777

Coke Zero rules. Its taste is absolutely perfect.

No, it isn't. It tastes closer to real Coke when you have it with food, but on its own it tastes pretty diet-y. better than Diet Coke, but nowhere near Regular Coke.

[LTC8K6]

http://michellemalkin.com/2012/06/05...g-soda-health/

Quote:

It’s starting to make sense now: Michael Bloomberg doesn’t really mind if New Yorkers drink more than 16 ounces of soda, he’s just trying to move some cups.

Quote:

Is purchasing two 16 oz sodas too much of an inconvenience to help reverse a national health catastrophe?

Quote:

If all you wanted in the first place was a banned 24 ouncer, Bloomberg just encouraged you to drink eight ounces more than you originally wanted — but anything we can do to help reverse a national health catastrophe, right?

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by Alan

The serving sizes sometimes listed are absurd and I doubt are intended to be the actual amount eaten in one go. Like the six packs of small yoghurt cups. On the one of these I looked at, one cup is two servings. They don't seriously intend somebody to make that last two servings or to share it between two people. Put the plastic cover back on and put it back in the fridge for the next day! Find somebody else who wants to eat it to share with!

And therin lies the problem, people like to think that what they want is what the serving size should be. You don't think the yogurt serving is enough so you have 2. This might work out well for you, but to someone who is intending on losing weight, this attitude is the killer of a proper diet.

A serving of food is not something designed to fill you, and that is one huge hurdle people have with food. When a good portion of people reach for that bag of chips their intent is not to taste chips but to feel full.

What satisfies you has very little to do with what is a healthy serving, if there was one bit of diet related information that could help many lose weight, this would be it.

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by JJM 777

You can always buy two smaller instead of one big bottle, so I don´t see how this law helps or bothers anyone.

If I had power, I would consider banning all sugared sodas altogether, in all sizes. Diet versions taste perfectly good nowadays.

YOu know i am not a soda guy , but this comment kinda bugs me.

Because you now feel diet soda has an acceptable flavor ( the only soda i drink btw.) , now it would be okay to you to ban the others? Isn't that a little you-centric? I know many people who dislike the flavor of diet soda for some reason, so they should just be ignored because someone else doesn't mind it?

At what point do we realize that we should simply mind our own business? People have a right to use their body as they please, whether that be an abortion, tattoo, risky sex, or being a pac-man shaped mass of flesh. Don't like the fact these people cost the health care system money? Fight against the health care system existing. Because saying you should be able to get a broken arm fixed after a boating accident ( or any other activity that could cause injury, that was just an example.), but them getting treatment for weight related issues is wrong, has the same kind of "I do the reasonable thing, everyone else doesn't." egocentric vibe as " They should ban sugary sodas because i don't mind non sugary ones.", and as has been said before we are all in this together.

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by JJM 777

Coke Zero rules. Its taste is absolutely perfect.

I'd say the same thing about spam ( in all seriousness, not playing devil's advocate, i love that ****), so would it be acceptable to ban other kinds of meat because i do?

You really think that certain people's tastes should be used as a yardstick for if something is appropriate to ban? You really better hope that person isn't me unless you really enjoy white castle, energy drinks ( zero calorie, so i am sure you could deal.), pepperoni, s'mores, and spinach as the only sources of food.

You realize your advocating the Demolition man distopia, right?

[Toontown]

At supermarkets, you will encounter numerous morbidly fat people. The contents of their carts will almost invariably include large quantities of sugared soda water. Many require motorized carts to lumber about pitifully.

Put two and two together, and you get four. As in four hundred pounds. Which makes you a non-prod and then kills you.

And the pitiful part is, once you get accustomed to artificial sweetener, the diet sodas taste just as good, besides being totally fear and guilt free.

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

No, it isn't. It tastes closer to real Coke when you have it with food, but on its own it tastes pretty diet-y. better than Diet Coke, but nowhere near Regular Coke.

Here, right here.

I don't even agree with this statement, but it outlines the problem in saying "What, diet soda isn't good enough for you?" and trying to use that as a yardstick of if the ban should be enacted.

Who gets to decide what tastes good enough? And what percentage of people, is it acceptable to ignore?

You can have your opinion all you want, hell, i hold the opinion that liquor objectively 100% of the time tastes worse than non liquor , and any attempt to state otherwise is inbred by societies view that enjoying liquor's taste versus effect makes someone more mature , or manly ( depending on the situation.). But the difference is i would never consider trying to use this as a point in a debate. Once we get past just talking bollocks and get into actual debate, one's opinion on taste goes out the window.

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by Toontown

At supermarkets, you will encounter numerous morbidly fat people. The contents of their carts will almost invariably include large quantities of sugared soda water. Many require motorized carts to lumber about pitifully.

Put two and two together, and you get four. As in four hundred pounds. Which makes you a non-prod and then kills you.

And the pitiful part is, once you get accustomed to artificial sweetener, the diet sodas taste just as good, besides being totally fear and guilt free.

And if you go into any serial killer's house, you will find some knives. Does that mean knives cause serial killers, or that serial killers tend to abuse knives?

[LTC8K6]

Just take Bloomberg's advice and drink two 16 ounce sodas instead of one 24 ounce soda.

Or just have a milkshake instead. They apparently aren't banned. Or a big old Wendy's Frosty.

[Toontown]

Originally Posted by sadhatter

And if you go into any serial killer's house, you will find some knives. Does that mean knives cause serial killers, or that serial killers tend to abuse knives?

Is there anything you won't argue with?

Fattie + cart full of sugar water = fattie abusing sugar water

That was the original observation. It continues to be the original observation.

[Toontown]

Originally Posted by The Dark Lord

No they don't. Diet soda is horrible.

Only because you are not accustomed to the artificial sweetener. Drink diet soda exclusively, and the bitter taste goes away, and the artificial sweetener actually becomes sweeter than sugar. It's not a difficult transition. What is difficult is thinking of an easier way for people to save their lives.

[Daald]

Originally Posted by Toontown

Only because you are not accustomed to the artificial sweetener. Drink diet soda exclusively, and the bitter taste goes away, and the artificial sweetener actually becomes sweeter than sugar. It's not a difficult transition. What is difficult is thinking of an easier way for people to save their lives.

Are you being serious?

[BenBurch]

What the Republican War On Big Gulps shows us is that GOP regard for personal freedoms doesn't include average people who buy soft drinks at 7-11.

[BenBurch]

Originally Posted by Daald

Are you being serious?

I actually drink Tab because I like the taste. Have since around 1968.

[NorfolkAtheist]

Many critics of the Bloomberg's plan claim that soda drinkers would simply buy two 16 oz drinks to make up for their inability to buy a 24oz drink (or whatever size the large is at the establishment in question). Is there real evidence to support this idea or is it just conjecture? What percentage of soda drinkers would do this? Was it common practice for a single individual to buy multiple sodas in the days when the portions offered were smaller?

[Daald]

Originally Posted by NorfolkAtheist

Many critics of the Bloomberg's plan claim that soda drinkers would simply buy two 16 oz drinks to make up for their inability to buy a 24oz drink (or whatever size the large is at the establishment in question). Is there real evidence to support this idea or is it just conjecture? What percentage of soda drinkers would do this? Was it common practice for a single individual to buy multiple sodas in the days when the portions offered were smaller?

I think it was pulled from exactly the same place which established that 24oz sodas equal obesity and their removal would help matters. I don't know whose anus that is though.

[ToddH]

Originally Posted by Toontown

Only because you are not accustomed to the artificial sweetener. Drink diet soda exclusively, and the bitter taste goes away, and the artificial sweetener actually becomes sweeter than sugar. It's not a difficult transition. What is difficult is thinking of an easier way for people to save their lives.

Tried drinking diet soda for about six months and could never get used to the taste. For me, the bitter taste never disappeared.

[Xulld]

Originally Posted by NorfolkAtheist

Many critics of the Bloomberg's plan claim that soda drinkers would simply buy two 16 oz drinks to make up for their inability to buy a 24oz drink (or whatever size the large is at the establishment in question). Is there real evidence to support this idea or is it just conjecture? What percentage of soda drinkers would do this? Was it common practice for a single individual to buy multiple sodas in the days when the portions offered were smaller?

Why else would someone order the largest drink if not that they were thirsty enough to drink it, and why else would there be a problem that needs fixed if the folks who buy the biggest cup, did not drink it all?

When I use to drink soda Id never buy the largest drink becuase I would never drink it all (I have always had issues with sugar, mildly hypoglycemic), I really cant imagine anyone who continues to pay more for that which they will not drink, and conversely if a person wants to pay more and get more I see nothing compelling that would change that just becuase they now needed to buy two smaller amounts to equal the same quantity that they now enjoy.

Being skeptical about this seems contradictory. If the problem exists its becuase people buy large sodas and drink them down. If you have the ability to get that much soda despite the restrictions why would that change your decision on how much soda you wanted to drink? If all else is equal, having two container vs one seems unimportant.

Personally I think a far simpler null hypothesis is that such a miniscule hindrance will do nothing to change human behaviors. I think the positive claim is going to require support. The claim being that this change will have any impact at all . . .

Quote:

Was it common practice for a single individual to buy multiple sodas in the days when the portions offered were smaller?

No, they just stop back through another drive thru once there drinks are extinguished, in half the time.

[Toontown]

Originally Posted by Daald

Are you being serious?

I used to hate diet sodas, until reality forced me to start drinking them. Now they taste as good as sugar sodas used to taste, and sugar doesn't taste as sweet now. Artificial sweetener now tastes sweeter to me than sugar. Everyone I've spoken with who has switched says the same.

Plus, I've lost 37 pounds in 6 months, and it has stayed off for 7 more. Now me, my bicycle, and a backpack full of diet soda, combined, weighs less than I used to weigh alone. I'm 63 and I can ride a bike like it's a motorcycle (well, a slow motorcycle).

So, bottom line, yeah. I"m serious.

[Toontown]

Originally Posted by ToddH

Tried drinking diet soda for about six months and could never get used to the taste. For me, the bitter taste never disappeared.

May have been related to your eating sugar in food. I've all but eliminated sugar from my diet. No more than an apple's worth a day.

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by Toontown

Is there anything you won't argue with?

Fattie + cart full of sugar water = fattie abusing sugar water

That was the original observation. It continues to be the original observation.

But the soda isn't what is causing the problem, it is their entire lifestyle, a lifestyle they are entitled to live.

Limiting me getting a large soda, or any soda is not going to change these people's weight, ever look at the amount of calories in pretty much any juice, or hell, milk? Soda, is getting blamed , only because it is an easy target.

Blaming the soda is like blaming the knives, it is not the product's fault, it is the person's fault.

[LTC8K6]

Originally Posted by NorfolkAtheist

Many critics of the Bloomberg's plan claim that soda drinkers would simply buy two 16 oz drinks to make up for their inability to buy a 24oz drink (or whatever size the large is at the establishment in question). Is there real evidence to support this idea or is it just conjecture? What percentage of soda drinkers would do this? Was it common practice for a single individual to buy multiple sodas in the days when the portions offered were smaller?

It was Bloomberg who said that about buying two 16oz drinks.

https://twitter.com/MikeBloomberg/st...w_p=tweetembed

Quote:

Is purchasing two 16 oz sodas too much of an inconvenience to help reverse a national health catastrophe?

I'm not quite sure how purchasing two 16oz drinks instead of one 24 or 32 ounce drink is any better, but I'm not the Mayor.

[LTC8K6]

Originally Posted by Daald

I think it was pulled from exactly the same place which established that 24oz sodas equal obesity and their removal would help matters. I don't know whose anus that is though.

it was pulled from Bloomberg's, I think.

https://twitter.com/MikeBloomberg/st...w_p=tweetembed

[The Dark Lord]

Originally Posted by Toontown

Only because you are not accustomed to the artificial sweetener. Drink diet soda exclusively, and the bitter taste goes away, and the artificial sweetener actually becomes sweeter than sugar. It's not a difficult transition. What is difficult is thinking of an easier way for people to save their lives.

Maybe. I hardly see any need to drink horrible tasting soda for however long to get used to the taste though. If I was overweight, sure, but I am not.

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by NorfolkAtheist

Many critics of the Bloomberg's plan claim that soda drinkers would simply buy two 16 oz drinks to make up for their inability to buy a 24oz drink (or whatever size the large is at the establishment in question). Is there real evidence to support this idea or is it just conjecture? What percentage of soda drinkers would do this? Was it common practice for a single individual to buy multiple sodas in the days when the portions offered were smaller?

Here is a fun experiment to try yourself.

Take your favorite drink, whether that be water, juice, whatever. Now, next time your thirsty, pour yourself less than you want, and wait and see what happens. You will get more, to spoil it for you. The problem is your thinking about the issue in a manner that makes you think their thought process is , " I loves me some sugar, 30 ounces! Yee haw, i can get even fatter!", when it isn't, they are thirsty, they may be making a horrendous choice, but they are going to drink what they want, and if they don't get an appropriately sized drink , they will simply buy more, whether that is at the grocery store, or the establishment doesn't make any difference.

And the problem is, massive sodas are all about convenience. Let's take me for example, i may like soda of the diet variety, but the premise is the same.

I get the biggest soda possible, why? Because it lets me not have to make more drinks later, plain and simple. A stupidly large soda long outlasts the meal it came with, saves me from dirtying a cup, and costs much less than getting a personal sized soda from a convenience store.

[JJM 777]

Originally Posted by sadhatter

Because you now feel diet soda has an acceptable flavor ( the only soda i drink btw.) , now it would be okay to you to ban the others? Isn't that a little you-centric?

Health reasons give a motive for the ban.

But in my infinite kindness I would first wait for technology to create a replacement product that large audiences enjoy as much as the unhealthy original, before banning the original.

[Modified]

Originally Posted by Xulld

Why else would someone order the largest drink if not that they were thirsty enough to drink it

Because it costs only 30% more to get twice as much. It's the same reason I have tubs of spare plumbing fittings, electrical parts, etc. in my garage.

[Toontown]

If people demand free health care from NYC (and they do), then it can be quite reasonably argued that NYC has an equal right to demand some minor improvements in their ludicrously unhealthy habits.

I agree that limiting the size of an unhealthy drink is probably an exercise in futility. OTOH, every little bit helps. If slightly inconveniencing sugar-guzzlers causes them to inadvertently consume a few less ounces of sugar water per day, then over years it will add up to a significant difference.

Even if they only run out of sugar water sooner and have to walk to the neighborhood convenience store more often, even that little bit of extra walking will help over time.

[pgwenthold]

Originally Posted by Xulld

Why else would someone order the largest drink if not that they were thirsty enough to drink it

Because it is the most cost effective.

When a 16 oz drink is $.69, and a 44 oz drink is $.99, why would you buy the 16 oz drink, considering the unit price is twice as much?

If the choice were between a 16 oz drink at $.69 and a 44 oz drink at $1.69, a lot more people would opt for the smaller drink.

[Daald]

Originally Posted by Toontown

If people demand free health care from NYC (and they do), then it can be quite reasonably argued that NYC has an equal right to demand some minor improvements in their ludicrously unhealthy habits.

I agree that limiting the size of an unhealthy drink is probably an exercise in futility. OTOH, every little bit helps. If slightly inconveniencing sugar-guzzlers causes them to inadvertently consume a few less ounces of sugar water per day, then over years it will add up to a significant difference.

Even if they only run out of sugar water sooner and have to walk to the neighborhood convenience store more often, even that little bit of extra walking will help over time.

So, If I do not want free health care, and I am not obese but I would still like the big soda, why are you bothering me? Why am I being punished for other people's problems?