Salt, We Misjudged You

[Uncle Otto]

You know I'm going to have to re-evaluate my position on this given the OP, and research I've done on this subject since I read that article in the link. I have given up everything salty that I like----sausage, lunch meats, pickles, you name it. I will bring this up with my cardiologist the next appointment I have with him.

[casebro]

Geez, this is a skeptic site. What are you folks doing, paying for "sea salt"? That has to be the biggest scam in the supermarket. Even salt mined form underground IS sea salt, it was evaporated millions of years ago is the only difference. 'Modern' sea salt my have more magnesium, depending on your study sources, but I'd like to see some double blind tests before I pay 20x for something that I can get for 39¢/lb.

Otherwise, I read the label on a one pound bag of potato chips. They had about 100% mdr of sodium, if I ate the WHOLE BAG.

So the problem, if there is one, is hidden sodium in processed food. Fine, cook like grand ma did. I roast a chicken once a week, eat one meal that day, make soup with the precooked left overs. 20 minutes from chopping board to a meal. Or tacos, same time frame. Or??? It's just is not that hard to cook un-processed food.

My recycling bin only needs emptying once per month, because it is not filled with the cans, bottles and boxes that processed foods come in. No beer or wine bottles either, I brew my own and reuse the empties.

Put I suppose cooking could cut in to a geek's D&D time.

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by Uncle Otto

You know I'm going to have to re-evaluate my position on this given the OP, and research I've done on this subject since I read that article in the link. I have given up everything salty that I like----sausage, lunch meats, pickles, you name it. I will bring this up with my cardiologist the next appointment I have with him.

I think salt is fine, or at least not nearly as bad as we have been lead to believe... I think lunch meat and sausage is a different story and not due to the sodium levels involved.

[Dinwar]

Originally Posted by casebro

Geez, this is a skeptic site. What are you folks doing, paying for "sea salt"? That has to be the biggest scam in the supermarket. Even salt mined form underground IS sea salt, it was evaporated millions of years ago is the only difference.

Not even close. First, each sea has different trace chemistry, which will impact the flavor. This works temporally as well as geographically. Second, salt labeled "sea salt" is precipitated from sea water, which provides a different texture than salt that's been recrystalized a few times. This impacts dissolution rates, mouth feel, crunch, etc. There are significant differences, mostly associated with those millions of years you mentioned, and mostly dealing with impurities and the crystal structure.

You can try this experiment at home: Take more or less any of Alton Brown's meals. Cook them twice: once with the recommended kosher salt, and once with regular salt. See what happens. That should be sufficient to demonstrate that not all salt is the same.

Quote:

Put I suppose cooking could cut in to a geek's D&D time.

Because the ONLY POSSIBLE justification for not cooking all your food from unprocessed sources is being a fat slob with no social life who plays games all day.

Don't get me wrong, if you enjoy your lifestyle good on you. I'm just saying that you may not want to be so disparaging of other lifestyles without knowing what they are. I mean, take me for example. At any point I can get called anywhere in two states. And meals in the field need to be stuff that can survive 110 degree heat for prolonged periods of time (gotta carry your lunch in with you in most of these places). It's pretty hard to plan out your meals when the conditions are that variable. And I haven't played D&D for years.

[bpesta22]

Tried to find this but couldn't. Anyone have sodium intake (perhaps per capita) by each of the 50 us states?!

[Puppycow]

Originally Posted by bpesta22

Tried to find this but couldn't. Anyone have sodium intake (perhaps per capita) by each of the 50 us states?!

I don't think this answers your specific question but

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5924a4.htm

Fwiw.

Why do you want data by state?

[Uncle Otto]

Originally Posted by Dinwar

Not even close. First, each sea has different trace chemistry, which will impact the flavor. This works temporally as well as geographically. Second, salt labeled "sea salt" is precipitated from sea water, which provides a different texture than salt that's been recrystalized a few times. This impacts dissolution rates, mouth feel, crunch, etc. There are significant differences, mostly associated with those millions of years you mentioned, and mostly dealing with impurities and the crystal structure.

Another thing people forget is that Sea salt or Kosher salt contains only 50% of the sodium that common table salt does in the same quantity. This is due to the coarser texture of the Kosher type. A teaspoon of Kosher salt contains less salt than the iodized table variety.

[Denver]

The last two podcast episodes of Star Talk (Neil deGrasse Tyson) have been on salt. Pretty interesting.

[Madalch]

Originally Posted by Psi Baba

You should visit a Brazilian Chiaroscuro restaurant. They are basically all-the-meat-you-can-eat restaurants. The meat is usually cooked on a brick-lined grill or rotisserie after being heavily doused with rock salt.

And when I was in Brazil, that was about the least salty meal I had.

[Skeptic Guy]

And here I thought this was going to be about Angelina Jolie.

[IllegalArgument]

Stole this from Jeff Wagg's facebook:

Might want to hold off buying that salt lick:
http://sciencebasedpharmacy.wordpres...red-narrative/

[PiedPiper]

Originally Posted by Uncle Otto

Another thing people forget is that Sea salt or Kosher salt contains only 50% of the sodium that common table salt does in the same quantity. This is due to the coarser texture of the Kosher type. A teaspoon of Kosher salt contains less salt than the iodized table variety.

Is kosher salt really only half the density of normal salt? Talking weight per volume basis?

I get that it's a different texture and shape etc, I just didn't know it was that much of a difference.

[Beerina]

Sea salt has less sodium per volume due to larger grains. Hence less per tablespoon.

Per weight, or saltiness, it is the same.

[Toontown]

Your blood is as salty as sea water. And yet you live on. How?

My own experience does not confirm the supposed link between salt and blood pressure. My blood pressure plummeted to low normal after I quit smoking, even though I was a heavy salt eater. Later, I reduced my salt intake, and yet the last time my blood pressure was checked, it was UP a few notches.

[Mr.D]

Originally Posted by Dinwar

Not even close. First, each sea has different trace chemistry, which will impact the flavor. This works temporally as well as geographically.

I've heard this many times, but I'd really like to see a good double-blind study testing if people can taste the difference between equal amounts (by weight!) of different salts dissolved in a small amount of water (to remove the textural, color and other differences).

[Orphia Nay]

Apples with salt are mouthwatering.

[Puppycow]

Originally Posted by IllegalArgument

Stole this from Jeff Wagg's facebook:

Might want to hold off buying that salt lick:
http://sciencebasedpharmacy.wordpres...red-narrative/

Apparently simple declarative statements are evidence?

Quote:

The higher the blood pressure, the greater the risk of these events. The relationship between the two is well established.

But he offers no evidence that I can see to back up that statement.

The article I linked in the OP says:

Quote:

When I spent the better part of a year researching the state of the salt science back in 1998 — already a quarter century into the eat-less-salt recommendations — journal editors and public health administrators were still remarkably candid in their assessment of how flimsy the evidence was implicating salt as the cause of hypertension.

“You can say without any shadow of a doubt,” as I was told then by Drummond Rennie, an editor for The Journal of the American Medical Association, that the authorities pushing the eat-less-salt message had “made a commitment to salt education that goes way beyond the scientific facts.”

So is the relationship in fact "well established" or is it based on "flimsy evidence"? I see assertions, but no hard evidence in that post to support the former.

ETA: He also says:

Quote:

When it comes to clinical practice guidelines, low salt diets are the mainstays of pretty much every set of guidelines on the management of high blood pressure. The evidence supporting the relationship with hard outcomes is robust, but not rock-solid. We don’t have causal data, but we do have considerable epidemiologic evidence to suggest that reducing dietary salt consumption is likely to offer net benefits in the management of hypertension.

[bigred]

Originally Posted by Mr.D

I've heard this many times, but I'd really like to see a good double-blind study testing if people can taste the difference between equal amounts (by weight!) of different salts dissolved in a small amount of water (to remove the textural, color and other differences).

pardon sidetrack but I'd like to see a LOT of blind taste tests on a lot of things - esp various alcoholic drinks - sooooooo much pretentious BS goes on there -

[bpesta22]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

I don't think this answers your specific question but

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5924a4.htm

Fwiw.

Why do you want data by state?

Thanks, I think I stumbled across this one. The CDC frustrates me (or I'm not very good at searching). I have a pretty large database of state variables. Curious how salt intake correlates with disease and other things across the 50 (but can't find salt intake for each state).

[Modified]

Originally Posted by Toontown

Your blood is as salty as sea water. And yet you live on. How?

Blood is about 1/3 as salty as sea water.

[Modified]

Originally Posted by Mr.D

I've heard this many times, but I'd really like to see a good double-blind study testing if people can taste the difference between equal amounts (by weight!) of different salts dissolved in a small amount of water (to remove the textural, color and other differences).

You can try it yourself. It's quite easy to tell the difference.

I love the taste of the "other salts". Calcium chloride is used in some pickles (in lesser amounts that the accompanying sodium chloride) and gives them that saltier-than-salt taste. I use potassium chloride all the time, not to cut down on sodium but because I like the somewhat metallic taste for a change. Magnesium chloride is also metallic tasting, and will bring to mind the taste of sea water.

[megaresp]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

I see assertions, but no hard evidence in that post to support the former.

Found this via Google Scholar...
http://www.beforeyoutakethatpill.com...e_2002_htn.pdf

Quote:

Our results demonstrate that a modest reduction in salt intake for a duration of 4 or more weeks does have a significant and, from a population viewpoint, important effect on blood pressure in both hypertensive and normotensive individuals. This meta-analysis strongly supports other evidence for a modest and long-term reduction in population salt intake...

On the other hand, if you move to the UK you'll get an extra gram of 'government approved' salt per day.

[casebro]

The "population based" is one of my major faults with the current medical establishment.

My doctor knows that some intervention probably won't do a darn thing for ME, yet he insists I participate because it should help SOMEBODY out there.

C'mon CDC, figure out which miner portion of us it helps, and make the recommendation that THEY take that particular intervention. Leave the rest if us alone.

eta: It didn't take me but a couple seconds to seach <hypertension sodium gene>. Sees the culprit is an aldosterone gene. So one drop of blood ought to tell whether "I" need to watch my sodium or not to bother. Hmmm, my quick read says aldosterone comes from the adrenal gland, where I have an incidental-oma, a grwoth that does not make any excess adrenalines, but I wonder if the endocrinologist looked at it for aldosterone production ? More googling in store for me.

[zeggman]

Originally Posted by casebro

Geez, this is a skeptic site. What are you folks doing, paying for "sea salt"? That has to be the biggest scam in the supermarket. Even salt mined form underground IS sea salt, it was evaporated millions of years ago is the only difference. 'Modern' sea salt my have more magnesium, depending on your study sources, but I'd like to see some double blind tests before I pay 20x for something that I can get for 39¢/lb.

Probably pumping premium gasoline too.

[zeggman]

Originally Posted by Dinwar

Not even close. First, each sea has different trace chemistry, which will impact the flavor. This works temporally as well as geographically. Second, salt labeled "sea salt" is precipitated from sea water, which provides a different texture than salt that's been recrystalized a few times. This impacts dissolution rates, mouth feel, crunch, etc. There are significant differences, mostly associated with those millions of years you mentioned, and mostly dealing with impurities and the crystal structure.

I have never purchased sea salt, so I'm completely ignorant about the product that's sold. From your description, and my experience on returning from the beach, I would imagine the sea salt grains would be finer?

I make my own "movie theater" salt by running table salt through a $10 coffee grinder. I make powdered sugar the same way. I let egg shells sit for a couple of days to dry out and then pulverize them in the same grinder before they go in the compost bucket.

I'm sure there are chemical differences between the oceans of today and the oceans which provided my table salt, but I'm also reasonably certain that my oafish palette would be unable to taste the difference.

[BenBurch]

Sea salt is JUST like any other salt except for some trace elements. Most countries use sea salt. America, having a lot of mineral salt uses mineral salt. Mineral salt has iodine added to it because if you have a diet without sea food and with just mineral salt, you likely do not get enough iodine, and so would get Goiter disease.

[Beerina]

Originally Posted by alfaniner

Also great with balsamic vinegar.

No. Nothing is good with basalmic vinegar. I once ate fresh strawberries criminally ruined by basalmic vinegar.

[Dinwar]

Originally Posted by Mr.D

I've heard this many times, but I'd really like to see a good double-blind study testing if people can taste the difference between equal amounts (by weight!) of different salts dissolved in a small amount of water (to remove the textural, color and other differences).

Well, that may prove or disprove the trace element idea. I'm honestly not sure--I'd also love to see the data if someone has it. My gut reaction is that people WILL be able to tell the difference, based on my own experience identifying rocks by flavor and oder (I can pick out the Silica Shale with my eyes closed). There are also drying methods that will alter the taste. For example, I've heard of some drying done with fire, which gives the salt a black color and smoky flavor.

Also, flavor isn't the only factor here. Your methodology eliminates the concept of mouth-feel--salt crystals aren't all the same. Dehydrated salt forms what are called hopper crystals, because when you look at them under sufficiently powerful magnification they look like a grain hopper. They have a high number of inclusions and imprefections. Mined salt, in contrast, has almost always (I want to say always, but there may be some minor cases I'm not aware of where it's not) been deformed and recrystalized. This yeilds much more consistant crystals in the typical cubic shape, with fewer inclusions.

It's all related to how fast the crystals grow. The courners of the cubes grow faster than the faces, and if the crystals are forming out of solution rapidly (as they do in dehydration) those corners grow like mad. If the crystals have more time to grow, the faces dominate the crystal shape and you get the nice, neat, orderly cubic shape. There's a third way to grow as well: dendritic. This happens when the solution VASTLY overshoots saturation without crystals depositing. You get firn-like structures that way. Not really an issue here, as salt doesn't tend to do this, but I thought I'd mention it for the sake of ocmpletness.

This is easily demonstrated with a cheap microscope. Even a hand lense can be used a lot of the time. And the difference in crystal shape has distinct implications for food. You can prove this--use table salt, rather than pretzle salt, when making pretzles sometime. Pretzle salt has been compressed and re-broken, so the grains are an amalgamation of crystals and therefore crunchier. Table salt is far less crunchy and disolves more rapidly since it hasn't been compressed.

I'm not saying your point is invalid. I'm merely saying that your methodology necessarily eliminates a very real, demonstrable, and well-established factor in this.

Originally Posted by zeggman

I have never purchased sea salt, so I'm completely ignorant about the product that's sold. From your description, and my experience on returning from the beach, I would imagine the sea salt grains would be finer?

Depends. The key issue, though, is that they're not as strong--the individual crystals are chock full of imperfections that weaken the structure. Really, grain size is going to depend more on processing than production. If they put the salt through a 0.1 mm grinder it'll be 0.1 mm, whether it's sea salt or regular salt. The difference will be that there will be less halite in the sea salt than in the mined salt.

[†= Crap!]

Taste test on Sea vs. Table salts have been done of course. I don't know how scientific their methodology was but here is one:

http://www.americastestkitchen.com/t...php?docid=9842

Overview: Step into just about any gourmet shop and you will find sea salts from around the world in a variety of colors and textures. Most are pricey, up to 100 times the cost of table salt. We wondered...(more) *click 'more'*

[JoeTheJuggler]

I just did a quick Google Scholar search and found lots of solid evidence of a link between higher dietary sodium intake and hypertension.

What exactly is the premise of the OP? That this very well-established link is itself not indicative of bad health outcomes?

[Beelzebuddy]

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

I just did a quick Google Scholar search and found lots of solid evidence of a link between higher dietary sodium intake and hypertension.

What exactly is the premise of the OP? That this very well-established link is itself not indicative of bad health outcomes?

Some hypertension (called "salt-sensitive hypertension") is exacerbated by salt intake. Some isn't. Since reducing salt intake didn't seem to have many adverse effects, it was recommended for everyone as a preventative for hypertension just in case. In the manner of "bad things bad, good things good" that the public is so fond of, we've been going overboard for a long while on the salt-hating, long beyond where it stopped making sense. The OP's article is just stating this and then slinging around a bunch of fud to muddy the waters.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by Beerina

No. Nothing is good with basalmic vinegar. I once ate fresh strawberries criminally ruined by basalmic vinegar.

I disagree. I have a jar full of hard boiled eggs pickled in balsamic vinegar and they are delicious. I may add that I do not have a sweet tooth and never have a packet of sugar in the house. Give me savoury any day.

[Uncle Otto]

Originally Posted by PiedPiper

Is kosher salt really only half the density of normal salt? Talking weight per volume basis?

I get that it's a different texture and shape etc, I just didn't know it was that much of a difference.

Beerina is correct. I have both types in my cupboard. 1/4 tsp of table salt contains 590 mg of sodium. 1/4 tsp of Kosher salt contains 280 mg. It is the volumetric difference.

[Mr.D]

Originally Posted by Dinwar

I've heard of some drying done with fire, which gives the salt a black color and smoky flavor.

If you've never cooked with smoked salt, you really ought to give it a try. Judiciously used, it can be a terrific "secret ingredient."

Originally Posted by Dinwar

Your methodology eliminates the concept of mouth-feel--salt crystals aren't all the same.

And this is the thing I can't recall ever seeing addressed scientifically - I have no problem believing that different crystal properties can yield different results for certain food preparations (koshering, salt-curing) or different culinary experiences for some dishes (popcorn vs pretzels), but I've seen the claim that trace elements in "sea" salt vs. "table" salt yield different (or even superior!) tastes in dishes like soups or sauces; and I've never seen that substantiated.

[Dinwar]

Originally Posted by Mr.D

And this is the thing I can't recall ever seeing addressed scientifically - I have no problem believing that different crystal properties can yield different results for certain food preparations (koshering, salt-curing) or different culinary experiences for some dishes (popcorn vs pretzels), but I've seen the claim that trace elements in "sea" salt vs. "table" salt yield different (or even superior!) tastes in dishes like soups or sauces; and I've never seen that substantiated.

I'll be honest, I'm going off of what Alton Brown said on a few of his shows (predominantly--I've seen corroboration elsewhere, but that's what I remember best). I tend to differ to experts, so I tend to differ to him. But you're right, it would be fantastic to see a rigorous study on this. I may have to poke around a bit.

[Orphia Nay]

Originally Posted by megaresp

Found this via Google Scholar...
http://www.beforeyoutakethatpill.com...e_2002_htn.pdf

Quote:

Our results demonstrate that a modest reduction in salt intake for a duration of 4 or more weeks does have a significant and, from a population viewpoint, important effect on blood pressure in both hypertensive and normotensive individuals. This meta-analysis strongly supports other evidence for a modest and long-term reduction in population salt intake...

On the other hand, if you move to the UK you'll get an extra gram of 'government approved' salt per day.

Interesting.

I have normal blood pressure (120 over 80), but a few years ago it was low, and I was prone to moments of dizziness, and nearly fainting. That was after many years of never adding salt to cooking.

Since then (but actually for taste reasons) we've added moderate amounts of salt to things like pasta and chips.

Don't we need salt so that we're not anaemic?

[Dinwar]

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

Don't we need salt so that we're not anaemic?

There are a number of reasons we need salt. First and foremost, our cells are basically sacks holding sea water and some proteins. That "sea water" part is important. A great deal of nutrient and waste transfer is osmotic, and that requires a fairly carefully regulated internal cellular chemistry. Screw that up and your cells explode or shrivel up.

If you've got three eggs you can demonstrate this effect. An egg yolk functions similarly to a cell. Separate the egg white and yolk, and put one yolk in a saucer of tap water. Put another yolk in a saucer of tap water plus some salt. Put the last yolk in a saucer with tap water saturated with salt (not super-saturated; we're not trying to grow crystals). Keep the water levels constant by adding more of the appropriate fluid as needed, over the course of about 24 hours. Then look at the eggs. The one in tap water will be much larger. The one in saturated salt water will be much smaller, The one in the non-saturated saline solution will be about the same size (plus or minus a bit, depending on how much salt you put in). Now, imagine that the egg yolk is your cells.

The second reason we need salt is that it contains electrolytes, which are basically just ions. Our bodies require electrolytes in order for our nerves to work. If you don't have the proper balance your nerves can't communicate all that well. And we're basically a bundle of nerves being carried around by a machine, so this is a very bad thing. It's one reason you die in the desert without salt. Too much salt won't impact this particular aspect of physiology, at least not at doses related to diet--the human body has mechanisms for removing excess salts--but too little is a major problem--because it's impossible to work with what ain't there.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

I just did a quick Google Scholar search and found lots of solid evidence of a link between higher dietary sodium intake and hypertension.

What exactly is the premise of the OP? That this very well-established link is itself not indicative of bad health outcomes?

If I recall there are sub populations with sodium sensitivity, I for one am sodium sensitive. Which is supposedly rare in caucasians.

So some people are salt responders and others aren't, USers do consume a lot of salt. Not all people react to sodium intake, so as in most health issues there are personal effects.

I however do recommend most USers could try reducing salt and see what food tastes like.

[casebro]

The "population viewpoint' is the problem. Blacks are more salt sensitive. So any large study will show an improvement in the overall blood pressure, due to the blacks getting lower PB. So, the consensus becomes "everybody should go low sodium" rather than " Blacks should go low sodium". Piss poor science, possibly from the effects of the diuretics the researchers are taking? Gene tests are available, it has to do with aldosterone genetics.

Personally, I'm a big white guy with hypertension. When active in the Southern California heat, I run out of salt. I get severely 'salt thirsty'. So thirsty that I drink a couple gallons of water. I'll be gurgling, yet reaching for another glass. Then it dawns on me to add 1/4 t salt to the next glass, and my thirst is slaked.

Apparently doctors never see hyponatremia, but duty nurses do. And guess what the symptoms are? Edema, and other probs, just like they are trying to avoid by giving diuretics. I've read that up to 20% of old folks in nursing homes have low sodium probs. Edema, and seizures due to electrolyte imbalances. At their own homes they might have discontinued the HCTZ pills, but the nurses keep following doctor's orders.

As in the egg yolk experiment lined out above, salt is hygroscopic. Water collects on the salty side of the membrane until both sides have the same saltiness. If one goes so low sodium that the serum is low, the salt in the cells then can soak more water out of the serum, swelling the cells. But the assumption is that the cells are swelling due to serum pooling in the spaces between the sells due to too much fluid in the blood, or poor blood flow caused by hypertension. So more diuretic is given, causing worse electrolyte imbalance, killing the old ladies by seizures.( But maybe that is the plan? ) All because 10% of the population has salt sensitive hypertension.

[bigred]

Originally Posted by Dancing David

I however do recommend most USers could try reducing salt and see what food tastes like.

? It doesn't all taste like salt?

Actually since my kidney stone I have cut table salt almost out and eased off on salty foods - it's not like I live in the desert, sweat a great deal etc so I think it's an overall good thing. I will say I don't notice that I esp feel any better, or worse though.

Originally Posted by casebro

The "population viewpoint' is the problem. Blacks are more salt sensitive.

racist.