How much mathematics do we need today?

psionl0 · 3rd June 2012, 10:52 PM

Recently, it has been asked, Is Higher-Level Math needed for everyone? Clearly the answer is no.

However, it occurs to me that a more appropriate question would be, "what is the minimum amount of mathematics we need to get by today?" Clearly we need to be able to do some financial calculations and we need a good enough understanding of statistics so that we can tell if someone is trying to sell us a pup.

In terms of specifics, I would start off with the following skills:
- Mental arithmetic
- Fractions, decimals, percentages
- Ability to use formulas
- etc

There are others that I think should be added but I will throw it over to other JREFers for now.

arthwollipot · 3rd June 2012, 11:43 PM

Personally I've never had to use much other than basic mental arithmetic and fractions/decimals/percentages. But then again I don't work as an engineer (for example), who would have to use a lot more mathematics in their day-to-day work than I do.

Inside Mob · 4th June 2012, 01:24 AM

I concede that most people do not need infinitesimal calculus but if someone wants to go into engineering after high school you need it a lot and teaching it has to be started way before you graduate from HS. The role of school up to the level of HS should be to teach broad range of subjects one of which is math.

Niall Ferguson says in his book The Ascent of Money that the world is divided into those not knowledgeable about financial world and those who know. His opinion is that this is one of the many reasons of growing inequality. People should know math so well that they could understand the basics of finance, be confident about calculating percentages and understand compounding interest so hopefully they would not max their credit cards at all times and take a loan that is not reasonable.

psionl0 · 4th June 2012, 01:29 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Personally I've never had to use much other than basic mental arithmetic and fractions/decimals/percentages. But then again I don't work as an engineer (for example), who would have to use a lot more mathematics in their day-to-day work than I do.

When you are negotiating a financial deal, do you understand the discussion or do you wait for the guy to stop talking so you can sign on the bottom line?

gabeygoat · 4th June 2012, 01:30 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

How much mathematics do we need today?

This is obvious trolling. Because, any sentient being knows the answer is 42.

psionl0 · 4th June 2012, 01:52 AM

Originally Posted by gabeygoat

This is obvious trolling. Because, any sentient being knows the answer is 42.

What was the question?

gabeygoat · 4th June 2012, 01:53 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

What was the question?

Life, the Universe and Everything

DevilsAdvocate · 4th June 2012, 01:54 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Recently, it has been asked, Is Higher-Level Math needed for everyone? Clearly the answer is no.

However, it occurs to me that a more appropriate question would be, "what is the minimum amount of mathematics we need to get by today?" Clearly we need to be able to do some financial calculations and we need a good enough understanding of statistics so that we can tell if someone is trying to sell us a pup.

In terms of specifics, I would start off with the following skills:
- Mental arithmetic
- Fractions, decimals, percentages
- Ability to use formulas
- etc

There are others that I think should be added but I will throw it over to other JREFers for now.

I think I brought this up in the other thread. My high school required everybody to pass Algebra and Geometry to graduate. But passing those classes was fairly easy. Easier than History or English. If you could pass 25% of the course, you would get a D, or usually a C-.

And that is probably about where it should be. A high school graduate should have a very basic understanding of algebra and geometry. They should “know what it is about” but not much more. The important part is that they “grasp the concept”. As long as everybody gets that, the rest is a buncha formulas and number crunching. Pay the nerds to do that.

Lamuella · 4th June 2012, 03:20 AM

define "we".

Jeff Corey · 4th June 2012, 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Recently, it has been asked, Is Higher-Level Math needed for everyone? Clearly the answer is no.

However, it occurs to me that a more appropriate question would be, "what is the minimum amount of mathematics we need to get by today?" Clearly we need to be able to do some financial calculations and we need a good enough understanding of statistics so that we can tell if someone is trying to sell us a pup.

In terms of specifics, I would start off with the following skills:
- Mental arithmetic
- Fractions, decimals, percentages
- Ability to use formulas
- etc

There are others that I think should be added but I will throw it over to other JREFers for now.

I'm not sure that mental arithmetic is necessarily good. Without a calculator, writing your calculations down allows you to check for errors. Drawing diagrams helps problem solving.

Rasmus · 4th June 2012, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

When you are negotiating a financial deal, do you understand the discussion or do you wait for the guy to stop talking so you can sign on the bottom line?

I don't think I've yet have to discuss a deal of any sort where percentages (and recursions, admittedly) wouldn't have been enough to understand what was going on.

The most complicated thing I have going on is a pension scheme supported by me, my employer and the government. But all of that - if I understood it correctly - breaks down into different people contributing different percentages of the total, and cumulative interest.

i.e. I pay x% of my salary, my employer pays z% on top of what I paid, or maybe a fixed sum, I'd have to look. The government makes this tax-deductible, i.e. I am not paying income tax on the money I put in, making the x% somewhat smaller in real terms.

Money accumulates over the years.

I die before ever seeing a penny of it all - the end.

rjh01 · 4th June 2012, 04:35 AM

I would also add a basic knowledge of statistics. Like being able to answer correctly a question like this
You guess the result of a toss of a fair 6 sided die and pay one coin. If you guess right you get 5 coins back. If you do this lots of times do you end up richer or poorer? All coins are of the same value.

Plus what DevilsAdvocate said, a knowledge of Algebra and Geometry.

Edit. I guess people should understand both probability and statistics.

arthwollipot · 4th June 2012, 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

When you are negotiating a financial deal, do you understand the discussion or do you wait for the guy to stop talking so you can sign on the bottom line?

As a rule, I do not negotiate financial deals, because I tend to do exactly that. Fortunately, I have someone who can do that stuff on my behalf.

Yes, I'm absolutely serious.

EHocking · 4th June 2012, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by gabeygoat

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0

What was the question?

Life, the Universe and Everything

While that was the question asked - as Deep Thought pointed out - it was not the correct question to the answer given.

Baloney · 4th June 2012, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

How much mathematics do we need today?

All of it.

Ziggurat · 4th June 2012, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Baloney

All of it.

JJM 777 · 4th June 2012, 09:56 AM

How much mathematics do we need today?

Understanding the terms of a house loan and a rapid loan take some effort.

Careyp74 · 4th June 2012, 10:39 AM

If you want to think of it like that, then higher level reading isn't needed by anyone, either. For that matter, any higher level education isn't needed. But for those that have the higher level education, and got the jobs based off of it, yeah, they need it.

Same with math. Those college courses I took with the applied mathematics in it have a purpose. I use some of it and wish I had the desire to remember more of it so that I could use that too. Especially around here where questions come up all the time that could be answered with the right equations.

psionl0 · 4th June 2012, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

As a rule, I do not negotiate financial deals, because I tend to do exactly that. Fortunately, I have someone who can do that stuff on my behalf.

This is what I am referring to. You need to possess a certain knowledge of maths to work out your finances - whether it is your own knowledge or someone else's.

Ladewig · 4th June 2012, 08:58 PM

But if everyone knew that much math there would be no casinos and lotteries.

Corsair 115 · 4th June 2012, 10:09 PM

Can't I just let Excel handle the math?

Zeuzzz · 5th June 2012, 12:32 AM

You are always going to end up in the paradoxical situation of arguing you don't need advanced maths, whilst using advanced maths, to make that argument (computer science, programming, hand-eye co-ordination); even if its largely an unconscious algorithm you are using.

Careyp74 · 5th June 2012, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by Corsair 115

Can't I just let Excel handle the math?

This just got me thinking.... pretty soon we will have an app for everything, so yes, most people wouldn't need to know any higher level math if they trust their iPhone.

In school they will just teach you how to call up the program on your phone and punch in the numbers. You won't even need to worry about which equation goes with what. Want to find the speed of a ball going down an incline plane starting at 0 mps? Open the ball down an incline plane app. When it asks you starting speed put 0, and when it asks you the degree of incline, take a picture of the ramp with your camera phone and it will measure it for you.

Physics gets a whole lot easier too! Open the Free Body Diagram App, take a picture of any contraption you like, and touch the screen at the locations of the known variables. You may need to actually call out any lines and solid beams in the Beta version of the app.

Ziggurat · 5th June 2012, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Corsair 115

Can't I just let Excel handle the math?

Excel excels at arithmetic, not math. If you don't understand math, you won't be able to set up a useful spreadsheet to begin with.

quarky · 5th June 2012, 06:29 PM

There's a handful of concepts that I find useful and recurring in mundane life activities. Gas laws; solid geometry; and the ratio of surface area to volume.

Beyond that, there is the fun stuff, for the layman, and the deeper understanding, for the professional.
Being able to read a label, or see through slanted statistics can be handy in shopping.
People are often preyed upon due to their complete disconnect from simple maths, and that's a pity.

Jeff Corey · 5th June 2012, 07:04 PM

"Maths" ? Gosh, you sure talk purty. You a English fella?

But seriously. My trouble bought a tool shed online and it needs a base, not included. I drew a diagram and measured out what dimensions of the lumber were needed, taking into account that 6X2 really means 5.5X1.5 and took it to Home Despot, the only place around that will cut PT lumber for you.
A number of college students, in my experience, do not know how to do that. And boy, do they hate Stats.

Kid Eager · 5th June 2012, 07:09 PM

I need somewhere between a smidgeon and a bit. It gets confusing when people start using different units of math, though. I mean, what the hell is a tad?

psionl0 · 5th June 2012, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by Corsair 115

Can't I just let Excel handle the math?

I would actually consider the ability to use a spreadsheet a pretty important skill nowadays. I find it strange that schools will teach a kid to rely on calculators but won't teach them anything useful in Excel (at least, not in a maths class anyway).

Fontwell · 6th June 2012, 12:12 AM

For most people, they never use any mathematics that they didn't already learn at primary school (by 5th grade).

It is true that they get better at it but arithmetic, percentages and basic shape and space properties get most people through an entire life.

marplots · 6th June 2012, 03:27 AM

The most common "maths" people ask me to do is conversions. It isn't that they couldn't convert 1.13 cups into something easier ( a cup and a tablespoonful) but that when they try it, they just don't have any confidence in their answer.

So the level of math I think people need is, "enough to know when it either sounds right or when you've really screwed up the calculation."

Beerina · 6th June 2012, 04:59 AM

Originally Posted by Lamuella

define "we".

Its the same "we" as in "We" are all in this together so "we" have decided to raise "our" taxes.

aggle-rithm · 6th June 2012, 05:06 AM

This book (http://www.amazon.com/Innumeracy-Mat.../dp/0679726012) explains why we need to know math.

Jack by the hedge · 6th June 2012, 05:50 AM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

But if everyone knew that much math there would be no casinos and lotteries.

I don't think that's true. People like the little thrill of thinking they just might be about to win something. They're paying for adrenaline. How many casino customers actually expect to come out ahead?

IllegalArgument · 6th June 2012, 05:54 AM

As I mentioned in the other thread, statistics, statistics and more statistics. I think a basic understanding of statistics is necessary for understanding the world today. Right or wrong, a lot of decisions are being made on the basis of statistics, ie. health care.

quarky · 6th June 2012, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by Kid Eager

I need somewhere between a smidgeon and a bit. It gets confusing when people start using different units of math, though. I mean, what the hell is a tad?

A tad is a bit more than a smidgeon.

Myriad · 6th June 2012, 07:57 AM

I find I use trigonometry, exponential functions, and logarithms on a fairly regular basis. But then again, some of my pursuits are unusual (although others aren't).

- Home improvements. Sooner or later, in any project, something is likely to need to be measured or cut at some crazy angle for some reason or other. (Experienced carpenters know tricks for working these out physically using a framing square, but I don't know them all, so I have to reach for my calculator instead.)

- Graphics programming. Try to write the simplest routine (say, "draw an arrow at coordinates x1, y1 that points toward coordinates x2, y2") without a thorough command of the trig functions.

- Basic circuit design.

- Game design. (Ask me about my alternate d20 success table based on exponential functions, that doesn't go haywire when you stack situational modifiers).

- Explaining phenomena at unfamiliar scales (read: addressing the physics arguments of 9/11 Truthers).

I think the first example, regarding the framing square, is telling, and analogies apply to most of the other examples as well. Math knowledge is often a substitute for more specific professional practice or "rule of thumb" knowledge. The real pros have found ways to eliminate the direct use of math (and thereby gain speed and reduce errors as well), but for an amateur trying to apply knowledge of one area to other less familiar areas -- and any critical thinker is likely to be in that role at times -- math is indispensable.

Respectfully,
Myriad

rocketdodger · 6th June 2012, 08:04 AM

Ask the presidential candidates how much math they know.

There is your answer. Sadly.

Baloney · 6th June 2012, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by quarky

There's a handful of concepts that I find useful and recurring in mundane life activities. Gas laws...

Exactly what "mundane life activities" would require you to know any of the Gas Laws or even consider standard temperature and pressure?

Careyp74 · 6th June 2012, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by Baloney

Exactly what "mundane life activities" would require you to know any of the Gas Laws or even consider standard temperature and pressure?

Well, just last week I blew up my son's new inflatable pool, as much as I could so that it held the water in better. After an hour in the sun the top ring deflated due to too much pressure against the valve. Keeping Boyle's Law in mind would have prevented this.

ETA: not saying that the formulas would help, but they teach you beyond the basics so that the basics themselves will stick.

Baloney · 6th June 2012, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by Careyp74

Well, just last week I blew up my son's new inflatable pool, as much as I could so that it held the water in better. After an hour in the sun the top ring deflated due to too much pressure against the valve. Keeping Boyle's Law in mind would have prevented this.

ETA: not saying that the formulas would help, but they teach you beyond the basics so that the basics themselves will stick.

Actually, that works well enough as an example. Thanks!

3rd June 2012, 10:52 PM	#1
psionl0 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°58'S 115°57'E Posts: 4,785	How much mathematics do we need today? Recently, it has been asked, Is Higher-Level Math needed for everyone? Clearly the answer is no. However, it occurs to me that a more appropriate question would be, "what is the minimum amount of mathematics we need to get by today?" Clearly we need to be able to do some financial calculations and we need a good enough understanding of statistics so that we can tell if someone is trying to sell us a pup. In terms of specifics, I would start off with the following skills: - Mental arithmetic - Fractions, decimals, percentages - Ability to use formulas - etc There are others that I think should be added but I will throw it over to other JREFers for now.

3rd June 2012, 11:43 PM	#2
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 43,027	Personally I've never had to use much other than basic mental arithmetic and fractions/decimals/percentages. But then again I don't work as an engineer (for example), who would have to use a lot more mathematics in their day-to-day work than I do.
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

4th June 2012, 01:24 AM	#3
Inside Mob Scholar Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 76	I concede that most people do not need infinitesimal calculus but if someone wants to go into engineering after high school you need it a lot and teaching it has to be started way before you graduate from HS. The role of school up to the level of HS should be to teach broad range of subjects one of which is math. Niall Ferguson says in his book The Ascent of Money that the world is divided into those not knowledgeable about financial world and those who know. His opinion is that this is one of the many reasons of growing inequality. People should know math so well that they could understand the basics of finance, be confident about calculating percentages and understand compounding interest so hopefully they would not max their credit cards at all times and take a loan that is not reasonable.
Inside Mob Scholar Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 76

4th June 2012, 01:54 AM	#8
DevilsAdvocate Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,648	Originally Posted by psionl0 Recently, it has been asked, Is Higher-Level Math needed for everyone? Clearly the answer is no. However, it occurs to me that a more appropriate question would be, "what is the minimum amount of mathematics we need to get by today?" Clearly we need to be able to do some financial calculations and we need a good enough understanding of statistics so that we can tell if someone is trying to sell us a pup. In terms of specifics, I would start off with the following skills: - Mental arithmetic - Fractions, decimals, percentages - Ability to use formulas - etc There are others that I think should be added but I will throw it over to other JREFers for now. I think I brought this up in the other thread. My high school required everybody to pass Algebra and Geometry to graduate. But passing those classes was fairly easy. Easier than History or English. If you could pass 25% of the course, you would get a D, or usually a C-. And that is probably about where it should be. A high school graduate should have a very basic understanding of algebra and geometry. They should “know what it is about” but not much more. The important part is that they “grasp the concept”. As long as everybody gets that, the rest is a buncha formulas and number crunching. Pay the nerds to do that.
	__________________ Heaven forbid someone reads these words and claims to be adversely affected by them, thus ensuring a barrage of lawsuits filed under the guise of protecting the unknowing victims who were stupid enough to read this and believe it! - Kevin Trudeau

4th June 2012, 03:20 AM	#9
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480	define "we".
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480

4th June 2012, 01:29 AM	#4
psionl0 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°58'S 115°57'E Posts: 4,785	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Personally I've never had to use much other than basic mental arithmetic and fractions/decimals/percentages. But then again I don't work as an engineer (for example), who would have to use a lot more mathematics in their day-to-day work than I do. When you are negotiating a financial deal, do you understand the discussion or do you wait for the guy to stop talking so you can sign on the bottom line?

4th June 2012, 01:30 AM	#5
gabeygoat Muse Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hard Corvallis, Oregon Posts: 668	Originally Posted by psionl0 How much mathematics do we need today? This is obvious trolling. Because, any sentient being knows the answer is 42.

4th June 2012, 01:52 AM	#6
psionl0 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°58'S 115°57'E Posts: 4,785	Originally Posted by gabeygoat This is obvious trolling. Because, any sentient being knows the answer is 42. What was the question?

4th June 2012, 01:53 AM	#7
gabeygoat Muse Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hard Corvallis, Oregon Posts: 668	Originally Posted by psionl0 What was the question? Life, the Universe and Everything

4th June 2012, 04:20 AM	#10
Jeff Corey New York Skeptic Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,794	Originally Posted by psionl0 Recently, it has been asked, Is Higher-Level Math needed for everyone? Clearly the answer is no. However, it occurs to me that a more appropriate question would be, "what is the minimum amount of mathematics we need to get by today?" Clearly we need to be able to do some financial calculations and we need a good enough understanding of statistics so that we can tell if someone is trying to sell us a pup. In terms of specifics, I would start off with the following skills: - Mental arithmetic - Fractions, decimals, percentages - Ability to use formulas - etc There are others that I think should be added but I will throw it over to other JREFers for now. I'm not sure that mental arithmetic is necessarily good. Without a calculator, writing your calculations down allows you to check for errors. Drawing diagrams helps problem solving.

4th June 2012, 04:34 AM	#11
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	Originally Posted by psionl0 When you are negotiating a financial deal, do you understand the discussion or do you wait for the guy to stop talking so you can sign on the bottom line? I don't think I've yet have to discuss a deal of any sort where percentages (and recursions, admittedly) wouldn't have been enough to understand what was going on. The most complicated thing I have going on is a pension scheme supported by me, my employer and the government. But all of that - if I understood it correctly - breaks down into different people contributing different percentages of the total, and cumulative interest. i.e. I pay x% of my salary, my employer pays z% on top of what I paid, or maybe a fixed sum, I'd have to look. The government makes this tax-deductible, i.e. I am not paying income tax on the money I put in, making the x% somewhat smaller in real terms. Money accumulates over the years. I die before ever seeing a penny of it all - the end.
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

4th June 2012, 04:35 AM	#12
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,193	I would also add a basic knowledge of statistics. Like being able to answer correctly a question like this You guess the result of a toss of a fair 6 sided die and pay one coin. If you guess right you get 5 coins back. If you do this lots of times do you end up richer or poorer? All coins are of the same value. Plus what DevilsAdvocate said, a knowledge of Algebra and Geometry. Edit. I guess people should understand both probability and statistics.
	__________________ dddffffpppqqqq Want to use your computer for something that will make society better? See this thread for details Folding@home Last edited by rjh01; 4th June 2012 at 05:17 AM.

4th June 2012, 06:25 AM	#13
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 43,027	Originally Posted by psionl0 When you are negotiating a financial deal, do you understand the discussion or do you wait for the guy to stop talking so you can sign on the bottom line? As a rule, I do not negotiate financial deals, because I tend to do exactly that. Fortunately, I have someone who can do that stuff on my behalf. Yes, I'm absolutely serious.
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

4th June 2012, 07:13 AM	#14
EHocking Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 4,410	Originally Posted by gabeygoat Quote: Originally Posted by psionl0 What was the question? Life, the Universe and Everything While that was the question asked - as Deep Thought pointed out - it was not the correct question to the answer given.
EHocking Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 4,410	__________________ "A closed mouth gathers no feet" "Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke Prayer: "a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms." T.Pratchett "It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite Forum Birdwatching Webpage Last edited by EHocking; 4th June 2012 at 07:14 AM.

4th June 2012, 08:00 AM	#15
Baloney Muse Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: America! (F, yeah!) Posts: 666	Originally Posted by psionl0 How much mathematics do we need today? All of it.
	__________________ _{When I think about woo, I detect myself.}

4th June 2012, 09:53 AM	#16
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,202	Originally Posted by Baloney All of it.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

4th June 2012, 09:56 AM	#17
JJM 777 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 3,175	How much mathematics do we need today? Understanding the terms of a house loan and a rapid loan take some effort.

4th June 2012, 10:39 AM	#18
Careyp74 Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Trevose, PA Posts: 3,407	If you want to think of it like that, then higher level reading isn't needed by anyone, either. For that matter, any higher level education isn't needed. But for those that have the higher level education, and got the jobs based off of it, yeah, they need it. Same with math. Those college courses I took with the applied mathematics in it have a purpose. I use some of it and wish I had the desire to remember more of it so that I could use that too. Especially around here where questions come up all the time that could be answered with the right equations.
	Last edited by Careyp74; 4th June 2012 at 10:40 AM. Reason: removed all of the unnecessary commas.

4th June 2012, 08:40 PM	#19
psionl0 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°58'S 115°57'E Posts: 4,785	Originally Posted by arthwollipot As a rule, I do not negotiate financial deals, because I tend to do exactly that. Fortunately, I have someone who can do that stuff on my behalf. This is what I am referring to. You need to possess a certain knowledge of maths to work out your finances - whether it is your own knowledge or someone else's.

4th June 2012, 08:58 PM	#20
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,821	But if everyone knew that much math there would be no casinos and lotteries.
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

4th June 2012, 10:09 PM	#21
Corsair 115 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tranquility Base Posts: 8,583	Can't I just let Excel handle the math?
	__________________ "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win."

5th June 2012, 12:32 AM	#22
Zeuzzz Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,241	You are always going to end up in the paradoxical situation of arguing you don't need advanced maths, whilst using advanced maths, to make that argument (computer science, programming, hand-eye co-ordination); even if its largely an unconscious algorithm you are using.
Zeuzzz Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,241

5th June 2012, 05:46 AM	#23
Careyp74 Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Trevose, PA Posts: 3,407	Originally Posted by Corsair 115 Can't I just let Excel handle the math? This just got me thinking.... pretty soon we will have an app for everything, so yes, most people wouldn't need to know any higher level math if they trust their iPhone. In school they will just teach you how to call up the program on your phone and punch in the numbers. You won't even need to worry about which equation goes with what. Want to find the speed of a ball going down an incline plane starting at 0 mps? Open the ball down an incline plane app. When it asks you starting speed put 0, and when it asks you the degree of incline, take a picture of the ramp with your camera phone and it will measure it for you. Physics gets a whole lot easier too! Open the Free Body Diagram App, take a picture of any contraption you like, and touch the screen at the locations of the known variables. You may need to actually call out any lines and solid beams in the Beta version of the app.

5th June 2012, 11:09 AM	#24
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,202	Originally Posted by Corsair 115 Can't I just let Excel handle the math? Excel excels at arithmetic, not math. If you don't understand math, you won't be able to set up a useful spreadsheet to begin with.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th June 2012, 06:29 PM	#25
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	There's a handful of concepts that I find useful and recurring in mundane life activities. Gas laws; solid geometry; and the ratio of surface area to volume. Beyond that, there is the fun stuff, for the layman, and the deeper understanding, for the professional. Being able to read a label, or see through slanted statistics can be handy in shopping. People are often preyed upon due to their complete disconnect from simple maths, and that's a pity.
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

5th June 2012, 07:04 PM	#26
Jeff Corey New York Skeptic Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,794	"Maths" ? Gosh, you sure talk purty. You a English fella? But seriously. My trouble bought a tool shed online and it needs a base, not included. I drew a diagram and measured out what dimensions of the lumber were needed, taking into account that 6X2 really means 5.5X1.5 and took it to Home Despot, the only place around that will cut PT lumber for you. A number of college students, in my experience, do not know how to do that. And boy, do they hate Stats.
	Last edited by Jeff Corey; 5th June 2012 at 07:19 PM.

5th June 2012, 07:09 PM	#27
Kid Eager Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 3,503	I need somewhere between a smidgeon and a bit. It gets confusing when people start using different units of math, though. I mean, what the hell is a tad?
	__________________ What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....

5th June 2012, 10:29 PM	#28
psionl0 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°58'S 115°57'E Posts: 4,785	Originally Posted by Corsair 115 Can't I just let Excel handle the math? I would actually consider the ability to use a spreadsheet a pretty important skill nowadays. I find it strange that schools will teach a kid to rely on calculators but won't teach them anything useful in Excel (at least, not in a maths class anyway).

6th June 2012, 12:12 AM	#29
Fontwell Scholar Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Nottingham, England Posts: 97	For most people, they never use any mathematics that they didn't already learn at primary school (by 5th grade). It is true that they get better at it but arithmetic, percentages and basic shape and space properties get most people through an entire life.

6th June 2012, 03:27 AM	#30
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,401	The most common "maths" people ask me to do is conversions. It isn't that they couldn't convert 1.13 cups into something easier ( a cup and a tablespoonful) but that when they try it, they just don't have any confidence in their answer. So the level of math I think people need is, "enough to know when it either sounds right or when you've really screwed up the calculation."
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,401

6th June 2012, 04:59 AM	#31
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by Lamuella define "we". Its the same "we" as in "We" are all in this together so "we" have decided to raise "our" taxes.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

6th June 2012, 05:06 AM	#32
aggle-rithm Ardent Formulist Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 14,153	This book (http://www.amazon.com/Innumeracy-Mat.../dp/0679726012) explains why we need to know math.
	__________________ To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens.

6th June 2012, 05:50 AM	#33
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,421	Originally Posted by Ladewig But if everyone knew that much math there would be no casinos and lotteries. I don't think that's true. People like the little thrill of thinking they just might be about to win something. They're paying for adrenaline. How many casino customers actually expect to come out ahead?

6th June 2012, 05:54 AM	#34
IllegalArgument Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Reston, VA Posts: 1,757	As I mentioned in the other thread, statistics, statistics and more statistics. I think a basic understanding of statistics is necessary for understanding the world today. Right or wrong, a lot of decisions are being made on the basis of statistics, ie. health care.
	__________________ Ann Coulter is the Paris Hilton of politics. Sam Harris is the Ann Coulter of atheists. When you get to be my age you realize the wannabecoolself wins when it stops trying to hide the geekself. -- Garrette

6th June 2012, 06:52 AM	#35
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	Originally Posted by Kid Eager I need somewhere between a smidgeon and a bit. It gets confusing when people start using different units of math, though. I mean, what the hell is a tad? A tad is a bit more than a smidgeon.
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454