How much mathematics do we need today? - Page 2

Psi Baba · 6th June 2012, 10:22 AM

If you want to have a bookcase or other piece of furniture in a room that extends from floor to ceiling, you'll have to assemble it inside the room. An already existing piece of furniture will have to be somewhat shorter than the ceiling height in order to be able to stand it up inside the room. How much shorter? The maximum height that the piece can be will be determined by its depth as well its height because the ceiling height will dictate the maximum length of the piece's hypotenuse. You'll need trigonometry to determine how tall an object will fit into the room.

Corsair 115 · 6th June 2012, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Psi Baba

If you want to have a bookcase or other piece of furniture in a room that extends from floor to ceiling, you'll have to assemble it inside the room.

I'd worry less about the ceiling height and more about the dimensions of the doorway(s) to the room.

arthwollipot · 7th June 2012, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by Kid Eager

I need somewhere between a smidgeon and a bit. It gets confusing when people start using different units of math, though. I mean, what the hell is a tad?

I was always taught that a tad was the distance across the Milky Way galaxy.

Originally Posted by Myriad

- Graphics programming. Try to write the simplest routine (say, "draw an arrow at coordinates x1, y1 that points toward coordinates x2, y2") without a thorough command of the trig functions.

Curious. When and why do you need to do this?

Toontown · 7th June 2012, 07:06 PM

I used math in my work, mostly trigonometry and coordinate geometry. My approach to math has generally been to know a programming language, be proficient in begging, borrowing, and stealing algorithms I couldn't work out myself, combining the algorithms into a coded monstrosity capable of correctly doing the desired math, however inefficiently, and then promptly forgetting everything about the program except how to make it do stuff. I was prone to forget how to make it do stuff if I didn't use it much.

I'm retired now. I've forgotten nearly all the math I ever had a nodding aquaintance with. For me, it's always been "use it or lose it". And I only used it long enough to tell a computer how to do it.

I wasn't afraid of math. Ain't nothing but glorified bean counting. Figuring out what the textbook is trying to say is usually the hard part. But I found math time consuming and tedious. A tedious means to an end.

quarky · 7th June 2012, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Baloney

Exactly what "mundane life activities" would require you to know any of the Gas Laws or even consider standard temperature and pressure?

You forced me to reflect upon my life, and things I do that I consider mundane, and in what possible way could gas laws be relevant...

Perhaps my life isn't normal.

Um, What if you have to cook a cake at high altitude?
Or comprehend which side of the vapor barrier the condensation will occur?

The actual reasons I mentioned the gas laws, I guess, is because they are so comprehensible, and its easy to see the truth in them, which I enjoy, so its possible that I go looking for verification, in my mundane life.

Possibly, I'm a dork.

quarky · 7th June 2012, 07:39 PM

We need math because it is so cool.

And we may need to grab onto all the cool stuff we can.
While we can.

Math can be a happy place.
There's beauty in it.
So impersonal. I like that.

Before we had all the digital wonders, I would instinctively add up the cost of the items in my grocery cart, in my head, for something to do to offset the awkwardness while waiting in the cashier's line. It was amazing how often the cashier would be wrong; both ways. When I was overcharged, it was kind of embarrassing for the clerk, but I was never wrong. The fun part was when they charged me too little, and I'd call them on that as well. That nerdish gesture has generated more goodwill amongst strangers than most things I can site.

Its part of the impersonal beauty of numbers.

(I miss complexity. Anyone heard from him?)

Zeuzzz · 10th June 2012, 04:44 AM

Originally Posted by quarky

(I miss complexity. Anyone heard from him?)

Same. He not posted much recently? I got him confused with someone else before, but quite liked his posts in all.

"Maths is impersonal", makes sense to me. Maths is a tool to understand things to such a depth we currently would not be able to without the brilliant mathematical models developed. But hypostatizing the mathematical models into reifications avoids the experimentally provable aspect of observational science, that should always preclude the mathematical theory, as elegant as it may be.

Mehdimentio · 10th June 2012, 04:38 PM

For me, math is something that makes life worth living. Literally. But then again, that's just me.

arthwollipot · 11th June 2012, 01:37 AM

Originally Posted by quarky

(I miss complexity. Anyone heard from him?)

As far as I know, he chose to take a (possibly permanent) break from the forum.

Myriad · 13th June 2012, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Curious. When and why do you need to do this?

I just made that example up as an easy to understand instance of the type of problem. I'll give you some comparable examples from actual projects.

- A simulation of an old-style analog multimeter. For various reasons the routine updating the position of the needle (drawn as a black line) needed to redraw as a line from point to point, rather than rotating a line-shaped sprite. Calculating the needle's end point from the current angle required very basic trig functions (about as basic as you can get) -- x2 = x1 + length * cos (theta0 - theta), y2 = y1 + length * sin (theta0 - theta), where (x1, y1) is the pivot point (x2, y2) is the location of the tip of the needle, length is the length of the needle, theta0 is the needle's zero position, and theta is the angle of deflection. This simulation also required an exponential decay function to make the slew of the needle in realtime look realistic.

- In a kid's game, in a top-down view, a character continuously rotates to face the mouse pointer, as the mouse and character both move around. This is almost exactly equivalent to the "arrow" problem I referred to.

- In user interface for a graphics program for rendering molecules in 3-D, years ago when processors were too slow to update a 3-D rendered graphic in real time, I included various ways for the user to select an arbitrary rotation in 3-D. Combination of rotations around different fixed axes (e.g. yaw, roll, pitch) were often hard to visualize, and trial and error was a slow process given the several-minute redraw time, so I devised some other options.

One of them was that the program would draw a circle around the molecule, which the user would imagine as the edge of a transparent sphere. The user could then click any point inside the circle or on its edge, which the program would interpret as the selection of a point on the surface of the sphere, and then rotate the molecule so that the view direction was from that point. Clicks outside the circle were interpreted as clicks on the nearest point of the edge of the circle.

So, for example, if the image were an earth globe currently viewed from the side (that is, from a point directly above the equator), and you clicked on the very top edge of the circle, or directly above it, it would rotate the globe so that you were looking directly south from above the north pole. But you could also click on, say, London, and the globe would rotate so you were looking directly down on London. (Except the image was a molecule instead of a globe.)

It takes some trig and some linear algebra to make that work.

Respectfully,
Myriad

arthwollipot · 13th June 2012, 06:07 PM

So knowledge of trig and linear algebra is useful to programmers. That's cool, but it doesn't mean that such knowledge is globally useful.

Perpetual Student · 14th June 2012, 09:17 PM

The value of knowing anything is related to one's expectations and aspirations. Mathematics is fundamental to scientific thinking, so for some people it's essential to understand and be able to do mathematics. For those with little or no interest in science, mathematics has less value.

Death Blow · 14th June 2012, 10:11 PM

There are some additional bits of math knowledge (to add to the OP's list) which I think are useful in everyday life.

-Standard Deviation, Variance, and Normal Distribution (really just a conceptual understanding)
-Geometry and Trig (for more complex do-it-yourself house work (ie carpentry))
-Statistical Problems (to tell when a "study" some marketer is pushing on you to sell their product is nonsense) (ex: biased sample, small sample, etc)
-Basic Linear Algebra (really just notation and row reduction) (for example, a florist may have a certain number of different flowers in her inventory and want to know how many arrangements she could make with that inventory among her preset arrangements (kind of a trivial example, but you get the point)).

jj · 14th June 2012, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Recently, it has been asked, Is Higher-Level Math needed for everyone? Clearly the answer is no.

This is exactly counter the actual facts of the matter. As devices, etc, are made more complicated, a better understanding of the underlying mathematics is utterly essential for anything beyond a labor-type of job.

As the world becomes more complex, understanding mathematics becomes more important. There is no going back.

arthwollipot · 14th June 2012, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by jj

This is exactly counter the actual facts of the matter. As devices, etc, are made more complicated, a better understanding of the underlying mathematics is utterly essential for anything beyond a labor-type of job.

So I need to be able to understand how my calculator works before I can use it? Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Roboramma · 15th June 2012, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

So knowledge of trig and linear algebra is useful to programmers. That's cool, but it doesn't mean that such knowledge is globally useful.

Well, if you go back to post #36 you'll see other examples of uses of math that don't only apply to programmers. Myriad was posting about his own need for math, so it's not surprising that some of those uses would be unique to him. However, other people may find different uses for math in their own professions.

Of course, programmers probably need more math than the guy who pours your coffee.

But generally speaking the world is mathematical, and understanding that mathematics gives insights into understanding the world.

alexi_drago · 15th June 2012, 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by Myriad

- Graphics programming. Try to write the simplest routine (say, "draw an arrow at coordinates x1, y1 that points toward coordinates x2, y2") without a thorough command of the trig functions.

dx=x1-x0
dy=y1-y0
d=arrow_length/sqr(dx*dx+dy*dy)
dx*=d
dy*=d
line (x0,y0)-(x0+dx,y0+dy)
line (x0+dx,y0+dy)-(x0+dx*.5-dy*.5,y0+dy*.5+dx*.5)
line (x0+dx,y0+dy)-(x0+dx*.5+dy*.5,y0+dy*.5-dx*.5)

or if it's just a line instead of an arrow

dx=x1-x0
dy=y1-y0
d=length/sqr(dx*dx+dy*dy)
line (x0,y0)-(x0+dx*d,y0+dy*d)

arthwollipot · 15th June 2012, 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by Roboramma

Well, if you go back to post #36 you'll see other examples of uses of math that don't only apply to programmers. Myriad was posting about his own need for math, so it's not surprising that some of those uses would be unique to him. However, other people may find different uses for math in their own professions.

Of course, programmers probably need more math than the guy who pours your coffee.

But generally speaking the world is mathematical, and understanding that mathematics gives insights into understanding the world.

Obviously, some professions need more understanding of mathematics than others. The question was "how much mathematics do we need today?"

Anecdote alert: I can get by with basic arithmetic, because I'm not an engineer, a scientist or a programmer. I've never encountered a situation in my life where I've needed even the simplest algebra. I've yet to see a good argument for me to learn more mathematics than I already know, especially since I don't appear to be particularly good at it (I stumble somewhere before simultaneous equations). Seems to me that people who are already interested in, and good at, mathematics tend to gravitate towards those professions where they can use that ability. The rest of us make coffee for them.

Actually, the rest of us do a lot of valuable work. Just not mathematical work.

Death Blow · 15th June 2012, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Obviously, some professions need more understanding of mathematics than others. The question was "how much mathematics do we need today?"

Anecdote alert: I can get by with basic arithmetic, because I'm not an engineer, a scientist or a programmer. I've never encountered a situation in my life where I've needed even the simplest algebra. I've yet to see a good argument for me to learn more mathematics than I already know, especially since I don't appear to be particularly good at it (I stumble somewhere before simultaneous equations). Seems to me that people who are already interested in, and good at, mathematics tend to gravitate towards those professions where they can use that ability. The rest of us make coffee for them.

Actually, the rest of us do a lot of valuable work. Just not mathematical work.

Lies!!! There is no valuable work without mathematics!!! Just kidding. Actually, I agree with most of what you said. My brother works as a low level chemist and doesn't have much use for math beyond arithmetic either. Most jobs are probably that way and most people can probably get by without needing much math knowledge. Personally I still find math knowledge valuable as it adds to one's critical thinking repertoire and makes some problems easier to solve which perhaps could have been solved another way, but less accurately or in a more time consuming way. The real value in math knowledge, in my opinion, isn't that it is really necessary (in most cases), but that it just makes people's lives easier.

DrDave · 15th June 2012, 08:34 AM

You've never needed algebra? I find that hard to believe.

If you've ever worked out anything like "I have $500, and need to pay $300 rent and $50 a week for food. How many books can I afford to buy each week if they are $7 on average and it's 2 weeks till payday" you're algebraing.

DazzaD · 15th June 2012, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Obviously, some professions need more understanding of mathematics than others. The question was "how much mathematics do we need today?"

Anecdote alert: I can get by with basic arithmetic, because I'm not an engineer, a scientist or a programmer. I've never encountered a situation in my life where I've needed even the simplest algebra. I've yet to see a good argument for me to learn more mathematics than I already know, especially since I don't appear to be particularly good at it (I stumble somewhere before simultaneous equations). Seems to me that people who are already interested in, and good at, mathematics tend to gravitate towards those professions where they can use that ability. The rest of us make coffee for them.

Actually, the rest of us do a lot of valuable work. Just not mathematical work.

As others have pointed out you are using mathematical skills and 'doing' mathematics practically every hour of every day of your life... maybe you just dont realise it (or more likely for the general public dont recognise it as such).

When my kids ask me about algebra my first explanation is "finding something you dont know" - you paid for a choccy with a fiver and got £2.20 in change...how much did it cost? does that stack up against your expectations?

Deciding on a route - decision mathematics (or graph theory)

Working out if you can cross the road before being splatted by the car - kinematics and probability

Putting your lunch in the lunchbox - very difficult problem in maths - packing

we could go on throughout your daily routine...

Whether you choose to accept or recognise it as mathematics is another matter...

You can also extend this argument to much higher level mathematics but of course most people cannot use this in their day to day life because they dont understand it and therefore cant see its use or application!

(today one of my further maths students was asking me about cardiods and we got side tracked into art, design, logos, print briefs etc)

arthwollipot · 16th June 2012, 04:04 AM

How many people use mathematical logic when packing a lunchbox? I just put the biggest thing in first, then pack the smaller things around it without worrying too much about working out how many square centimetres a banana occupies.

Process like this can be mathematised, in order to find an ideal solution. That's what your GPS does when it finds a route for you. Me, I just go whichever way seems best at the time. It might not be the most efficient way, but I rarely stop to think about what is the most efficient way. There's no need, even before I had GPS.

I don't calculate the position of the ball before I catch it. Though this is technically a mathematical process, I don't use maths to catch the ball. I just catch it.

h.g.Whiz · 16th June 2012, 04:57 AM

Originally Posted by DrDave

You've never needed algebra? I find that hard to believe.

If you've ever worked out anything like "I have $500, and need to pay $300 rent and $50 a week for food. How many books can I afford to buy each week if they are $7 on average and it's 2 weeks till payday" you're algebraing.

Ain't there apps for such algebra, I know there is Gutenberg for free books.

DazzaD · 16th June 2012, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

How many people use mathematical logic when packing a lunchbox? I just put the biggest thing in first, then pack the smaller things around it without worrying too much about working out how many square centimetres a banana occupies.

Process like this can be mathematised, in order to find an ideal solution. That's what your GPS does when it finds a route for you. Me, I just go whichever way seems best at the time. It might not be the most efficient way, but I rarely stop to think about what is the most efficient way. There's no need, even before I had GPS.

I don't calculate the position of the ball before I catch it. Though this is technically a mathematical process, I don't use maths to catch the ball. I just catch it.

But that is my point.

I would contend you ARE using maths... you may not sit down and write out some stuff on a piece of paper (and likely neither would I)... but you/your brain/your body is using mathematics and the skills involved in mathematics to solve that problem.

Mathematics is more universal than most people would perceive (in my opinion)...

Some examples just from yesterday (contrived slightly in that I am a maths teacher)...

One of my Further Mathematics girls was asking for help on sketching cardiods... investigating this led us into a discussion on spirals, the logos of certain companies, how to specify fully the shape of the curve to protect a trademark and to produce a design brief..

Another was asking about asymptotes and we got side tracked into a discussion on zero sheep in the field as opposed to no sheep in the field..

Another was asking about simultaneous equations in solving a problem in buying combinations of items in the way that would be the best value for money

One class was looking at lottery numbers and the frequency in which they came up and starting to look at whether knowing that can effect future outcomes and therefore influence their potential winnings

My year 10s were working out the length of a go kart track using circles and sectors.

Some younger ones were working out how much paint they need to paint their bedroom, how much it would cost, how to build in some contingency plans for estimating the amounts correctly, what was the best way to buy the paint...

We also looked at ratios in recipes
Understanding the ticket prices on a car parking ticket machine
Working out profit margins for a cafe
Estimating journey times on a visit to family members
Looking at the cheapest mobile phone tariff
Looking at bus timetables
Working out the cheapest way to buy soap powder
Working out how long it takes to heat some water up
Working out how long it takes to empty a sink

Ok, fair enough, my Year 7, 8, and 9 all had end of year tests this week and my Year 11, 12 and 13 are all in their exam period, but the point is this was JUST the discussions I had in a single day.

My wife is the best person to ask probably. She constantly bemoans the way in which I have to incorporate maths and science into the most mundane aspects of life!

Also.. on Wednesday our girls had a talk from a bloke at Cambridge University about how to gain entrance to the top unis in the UK. He was constantly banging on about mathematics (A level maths and Further Maths)... it struck them quite a bit when he listed the top things they look for in arts and humanities entries - english lit, history, geography and maths. He explained why .. it wasnt just about the direct skills, it was about the way it taught you to think, to rationalise, to analyse, to model, to experiment, to trial, to solve, to break down, to generalise, to prove.. a logical, systematic method...

Take a look at the following (and related articles from that link) and see if you are still convince you dont need/use higher maths in everyday life.

http://www.mathscareers.org.uk/viewI...?cit_id=382712

arthwollipot · 17th June 2012, 04:02 AM

Originally Posted by DazzaD

But that is my point.

I would contend you ARE using maths... you may not sit down and write out some stuff on a piece of paper (and likely neither would I)... but you/your brain/your body is using mathematics and the skills involved in mathematics to solve that problem.

Nope. When I catch a ball, that's muscle memory and physical training. Purely physical. Ask any baseball player whether they even know what a parabola is. I'd bet that not one of them calculate an x² in their heads when they catch a fly ball. Instead, they rely on their physical training. The path of the ball can be calculated mathematically, but no-one does that when they're catching it.

yog_sothoth · 17th June 2012, 05:16 AM

I use math, including simple calculus and statistics quite often. I haven't solved a differential equation for a while though. I do really enjoy what some expertise in a good spreadsheet program lets you do these days.

DazzaD · 17th June 2012, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Nope. When I catch a ball, that's muscle memory and physical training. Purely physical. Ask any baseball player whether they even know what a parabola is. I'd bet that not one of them calculate an x² in their heads when they catch a fly ball. Instead, they rely on their physical training. The path of the ball can be calculated mathematically, but no-one does that when they're catching it.

My point is you are using maths at some level. Of course neither of us would sit and calculate the path using projectile mechanics.. but you know the ball wont swerve back up, you can predict its path by the very nature of its parabolic path, and of course experience and practice improves this but nonetheless you have an inkling of what to do the firs time you go to "catch a ball" or something new as an adult because of the predictive and analytical nature of the maths involved.

Maths is more than just writing sums down on a page.

WildCat · 17th June 2012, 11:29 AM

How much mathematics do we need today?

6.5 grams per day is enough for most people. Higher amounts may cause cancer.

TjW · 17th June 2012, 11:35 AM

How much mathematics do we need today?

42.

arthwollipot · 17th June 2012, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by DazzaD

My point is you are using maths at some level. Of course neither of us would sit and calculate the path using projectile mechanics.. but you know the ball wont swerve back up, you can predict its path by the very nature of its parabolic path, and of course experience and practice improves this but nonetheless you have an inkling of what to do the firs time you go to "catch a ball" or something new as an adult because of the predictive and analytical nature of the maths involved.

Maths is more than just writing sums down on a page.

Okay, clearly we're talking past each other here.

psionl0 · 17th June 2012, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by TjW

How much mathematics do we need today?

42.

Recycling posts already?

Perpetual Student · 17th June 2012, 08:50 PM

On second thought, I would like to amend my earlier post as follows: The value of mathematics reaches across so many disciplines within the sciences, the crafts, the arts, business and virtually all aspects of everyday life. So, I have no idea why one would not want to know as much mathematics as he/she has the time and capacity to learn. In addition (for some of us) mathematics is also rewarding in and of itself.

jj · 17th June 2012, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

So I need to be able to understand how my calculator works before I can use it? Sorry, I'm not buying it.

You need to understand what it does, not how it does it.

Roboramma · 17th June 2012, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Obviously, some professions need more understanding of mathematics than others. The question was "how much mathematics do we need today?"

Yes, and as I said, if you go back to post #36 most of Myriad's examples don't apply to any particular profession.

rjh01 · 18th June 2012, 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Nope. When I catch a ball, that's muscle memory and physical training. Purely physical. Ask any baseball player whether they even know what a parabola is. I'd bet that not one of them calculate an x² in their heads when they catch a fly ball. Instead, they rely on their physical training. The path of the ball can be calculated mathematically, but no-one does that when they're catching it.

How to catch a ball in a two dimensional world (Up/down and back and forward)
1. Look at the ball. If it is moving downwards accelerate forwards.
2. Look at the ball. If it is moving upwards accelerate backwards.
3. Look at the ball. If it will hit you within seconds get ready to catch the ball, then catch it. Exit the ball catching routine.
4. Go to step 1.

No maths involved.

Edit. Upwards and downwards refer to the angle you see the ball.

DrDave · 18th June 2012, 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

How to catch a ball in a two dimensional world (Up/down and back and forward)
1. Look at the ball. If it is moving downwards accelerate forwards.
2. Look at the ball. If it is moving upwards accelerate backwards.
3. Look at the ball. If it will hit you within seconds get ready to catch the ball, then catch it. Exit the ball catching routine.
4. Go to step 1.

No maths involved.

Edit. Upwards and downwards refer to the angle you see the ball.

I've hilited some of the maths for you...

DazzaD · 18th June 2012, 05:11 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

How to catch a ball in a two dimensional world (Up/down and back and forward)
1. Look at the ball. If it is moving downwards accelerate forwards.
2. Look at the ball. If it is moving upwards accelerate backwards.
3. Look at the ball. If it will hit you within seconds get ready to catch the ball, then catch it. Exit the ball catching routine.
4. Go to step 1.

No maths involved.

Edit. Upwards and downwards refer to the angle you see the ball.

The algorithmic approach is a key mathematical skill.

It may not say "learn how to apply the skill of algorithmic ways of thinking" in most mathematics exam syllabus but nonetheless it is something that is "taught" in mathematics.

Looking at the ball requires the concept of position, which probably relates to a coordinate system of some kind.

The movement involves some sort of translation, or angle approach, or vectors.

Acceleration obviously is a vector quantity that depends upon looking at changes in velocity with respect to time (calculus, rate of of change of one variable with respect to another).

I think, in this thread, the opinions are skewed by each persons personal interpretation of what "maths is". Those who have not had the luxury of studying maths at a high level may have the misconception that it is solving hard sums or doing big calculations or adding 50 different terms in an algebraic expression. In my experience the higher the level of maths studied the wider the appreciation of just what maths is.

(e.g. why is a negative number times a negative number a positive number in school? why? what blooming use is that? who would use that now in real life?)

DazzaD · 18th June 2012, 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Nope. When I catch a ball, that's muscle memory and physical training. Purely physical. Ask any baseball player whether they even know what a parabola is. I'd bet that not one of them calculate an x² in their heads when they catch a fly ball. Instead, they rely on their physical training. The path of the ball can be calculated mathematically, but no-one does that when they're catching it.

Am I right in thinking that the top baseball teams do hire sports scientists to aid their training and skills?

arthwollipot · 18th June 2012, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by Roboramma

Yes, and as I said, if you go back to post #36 most of Myriad's examples don't apply to any particular profession.

So graphics programming, circuit design and game design are things that everybody is expected to be able to do?

Home improvements I will grant, but only inasmuch as it is basic arithmetic, with perhaps a little trigonometry or very simple algebra.

arthwollipot · 18th June 2012, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by DazzaD

Am I right in thinking that the top baseball teams do hire sports scientists to aid their training and skills?

Yes, so sports scientists are doing maths. Baseball players still aren't.

6th June 2012, 10:22 AM	#41
Psi Baba Homo Skepticalis Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Occupying my barstool Posts: 3,179	If you want to have a bookcase or other piece of furniture in a room that extends from floor to ceiling, you'll have to assemble it inside the room. An already existing piece of furniture will have to be somewhat shorter than the ceiling height in order to be able to stand it up inside the room. How much shorter? The maximum height that the piece can be will be determined by its depth as well its height because the ceiling height will dictate the maximum length of the piece's hypotenuse. You'll need trigonometry to determine how tall an object will fit into the room.
	__________________ Save Caribbean Rum! (seriously)

6th June 2012, 10:30 AM	#42
Corsair 115 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tranquility Base Posts: 8,556	Originally Posted by Psi Baba If you want to have a bookcase or other piece of furniture in a room that extends from floor to ceiling, you'll have to assemble it inside the room. I'd worry less about the ceiling height and more about the dimensions of the doorway(s) to the room.
	__________________ "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win."

7th June 2012, 05:19 PM	#43
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 42,988	Originally Posted by Kid Eager I need somewhere between a smidgeon and a bit. It gets confusing when people start using different units of math, though. I mean, what the hell is a tad? I was always taught that a tad was the distance across the Milky Way galaxy. Originally Posted by Myriad - Graphics programming. Try to write the simplest routine (say, "draw an arrow at coordinates x1, y1 that points toward coordinates x2, y2") without a thorough command of the trig functions. Curious. When and why do you need to do this?
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

7th June 2012, 07:06 PM	#44
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	I used math in my work, mostly trigonometry and coordinate geometry. My approach to math has generally been to know a programming language, be proficient in begging, borrowing, and stealing algorithms I couldn't work out myself, combining the algorithms into a coded monstrosity capable of correctly doing the desired math, however inefficiently, and then promptly forgetting everything about the program except how to make it do stuff. I was prone to forget how to make it do stuff if I didn't use it much. I'm retired now. I've forgotten nearly all the math I ever had a nodding aquaintance with. For me, it's always been "use it or lose it". And I only used it long enough to tell a computer how to do it. I wasn't afraid of math. Ain't nothing but glorified bean counting. Figuring out what the textbook is trying to say is usually the hard part. But I found math time consuming and tedious. A tedious means to an end.
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	__________________ SEARCH NOW THE SPHERES PROBE THE UNIVERSE SEND BACK WORD WHAT FORCE SO IRRESISTIBLE AS THE WILL OF FREE MEN

7th June 2012, 07:27 PM	#45
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	Originally Posted by Baloney Exactly what "mundane life activities" would require you to know any of the Gas Laws or even consider standard temperature and pressure? You forced me to reflect upon my life, and things I do that I consider mundane, and in what possible way could gas laws be relevant... Perhaps my life isn't normal. Um, What if you have to cook a cake at high altitude? Or comprehend which side of the vapor barrier the condensation will occur? The actual reasons I mentioned the gas laws, I guess, is because they are so comprehensible, and its easy to see the truth in them, which I enjoy, so its possible that I go looking for verification, in my mundane life. Possibly, I'm a dork.
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

7th June 2012, 07:39 PM	#46
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	We need math because it is so cool. And we may need to grab onto all the cool stuff we can. While we can. Math can be a happy place. There's beauty in it. So impersonal. I like that. Before we had all the digital wonders, I would instinctively add up the cost of the items in my grocery cart, in my head, for something to do to offset the awkwardness while waiting in the cashier's line. It was amazing how often the cashier would be wrong; both ways. When I was overcharged, it was kind of embarrassing for the clerk, but I was never wrong. The fun part was when they charged me too little, and I'd call them on that as well. That nerdish gesture has generated more goodwill amongst strangers than most things I can site. Its part of the impersonal beauty of numbers. (I miss complexity. Anyone heard from him?)
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

10th June 2012, 04:44 AM	#47
Zeuzzz Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,241	Originally Posted by quarky (I miss complexity. Anyone heard from him?) Same. He not posted much recently? I got him confused with someone else before, but quite liked his posts in all. "Maths is impersonal", makes sense to me. Maths is a tool to understand things to such a depth we currently would not be able to without the brilliant mathematical models developed. But hypostatizing the mathematical models into reifications avoids the experimentally provable aspect of observational science, that should always preclude the mathematical theory, as elegant as it may be.
Zeuzzz Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,241	Last edited by Zeuzzz; 10th June 2012 at 05:24 AM.

10th June 2012, 04:38 PM	#48
Mehdimentio Thinker Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Sweden Posts: 161	For me, math is something that makes life worth living. Literally. But then again, that's just me.
	__________________ "Picture all experts as if they were mammals." - Christopher Hitchens

11th June 2012, 01:37 AM	#49
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 42,988	Originally Posted by quarky (I miss complexity. Anyone heard from him?) As far as I know, he chose to take a (possibly permanent) break from the forum.
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

13th June 2012, 09:16 AM	#50
Myriad Hyperthetical Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 8,198	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Curious. When and why do you need to do this? I just made that example up as an easy to understand instance of the type of problem. I'll give you some comparable examples from actual projects. - A simulation of an old-style analog multimeter. For various reasons the routine updating the position of the needle (drawn as a black line) needed to redraw as a line from point to point, rather than rotating a line-shaped sprite. Calculating the needle's end point from the current angle required very basic trig functions (about as basic as you can get) -- x2 = x1 + length * cos (theta0 - theta), y2 = y1 + length * sin (theta0 - theta), where (x1, y1) is the pivot point (x2, y2) is the location of the tip of the needle, length is the length of the needle, theta0 is the needle's zero position, and theta is the angle of deflection. This simulation also required an exponential decay function to make the slew of the needle in realtime look realistic. - In a kid's game, in a top-down view, a character continuously rotates to face the mouse pointer, as the mouse and character both move around. This is almost exactly equivalent to the "arrow" problem I referred to. - In user interface for a graphics program for rendering molecules in 3-D, years ago when processors were too slow to update a 3-D rendered graphic in real time, I included various ways for the user to select an arbitrary rotation in 3-D. Combination of rotations around different fixed axes (e.g. yaw, roll, pitch) were often hard to visualize, and trial and error was a slow process given the several-minute redraw time, so I devised some other options. One of them was that the program would draw a circle around the molecule, which the user would imagine as the edge of a transparent sphere. The user could then click any point inside the circle or on its edge, which the program would interpret as the selection of a point on the surface of the sphere, and then rotate the molecule so that the view direction was from that point. Clicks outside the circle were interpreted as clicks on the nearest point of the edge of the circle. So, for example, if the image were an earth globe currently viewed from the side (that is, from a point directly above the equator), and you clicked on the very top edge of the circle, or directly above it, it would rotate the globe so that you were looking directly south from above the north pole. But you could also click on, say, London, and the globe would rotate so you were looking directly down on London. (Except the image was a molecule instead of a globe.) It takes some trig and some linear algebra to make that work. Respectfully, Myriad
	__________________ The cosmos is a vast Loom, with time the warp and space the weft. We are all fruit of the Loom, unaware.

13th June 2012, 06:07 PM	#51
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 42,988	So knowledge of trig and linear algebra is useful to programmers. That's cool, but it doesn't mean that such knowledge is globally useful.
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

14th June 2012, 09:17 PM	#52
Perpetual Student Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 3,709	The value of knowing anything is related to one's expectations and aspirations. Mathematics is fundamental to scientific thinking, so for some people it's essential to understand and be able to do mathematics. For those with little or no interest in science, mathematics has less value.
	__________________ _{It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong. - Richard P. Feynman} ξ

14th June 2012, 10:11 PM	#53
Death Blow Student Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 34	There are some additional bits of math knowledge (to add to the OP's list) which I think are useful in everyday life. -Standard Deviation, Variance, and Normal Distribution (really just a conceptual understanding) -Geometry and Trig (for more complex do-it-yourself house work (ie carpentry)) -Statistical Problems (to tell when a "study" some marketer is pushing on you to sell their product is nonsense) (ex: biased sample, small sample, etc) -Basic Linear Algebra (really just notation and row reduction) (for example, a florist may have a certain number of different flowers in her inventory and want to know how many arrangements she could make with that inventory among her preset arrangements (kind of a trivial example, but you get the point)).
Death Blow Student Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 34	Last edited by Death Blow; 14th June 2012 at 10:13 PM.

14th June 2012, 10:38 PM	#54
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,503	Originally Posted by psionl0 Recently, it has been asked, Is Higher-Level Math needed for everyone? Clearly the answer is no. This is exactly counter the actual facts of the matter. As devices, etc, are made more complicated, a better understanding of the underlying mathematics is utterly essential for anything beyond a labor-type of job. As the world becomes more complex, understanding mathematics becomes more important. There is no going back.
	__________________ The Power to Quit

14th June 2012, 11:19 PM	#55
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 42,988	Originally Posted by jj This is exactly counter the actual facts of the matter. As devices, etc, are made more complicated, a better understanding of the underlying mathematics is utterly essential for anything beyond a labor-type of job. So I need to be able to understand how my calculator works before I can use it? Sorry, I'm not buying it.
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

15th June 2012, 03:39 AM	#56
Roboramma Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 7,095	Originally Posted by arthwollipot So knowledge of trig and linear algebra is useful to programmers. That's cool, but it doesn't mean that such knowledge is globally useful. Well, if you go back to post #36 you'll see other examples of uses of math that don't only apply to programmers. Myriad was posting about his own need for math, so it's not surprising that some of those uses would be unique to him. However, other people may find different uses for math in their own professions. Of course, programmers probably need more math than the guy who pours your coffee. But generally speaking the world is mathematical, and understanding that mathematics gives insights into understanding the world.
	__________________ "... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov

15th June 2012, 04:15 AM	#57
alexi_drago Muse Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 676	Originally Posted by Myriad - Graphics programming. Try to write the simplest routine (say, "draw an arrow at coordinates x1, y1 that points toward coordinates x2, y2") without a thorough command of the trig functions. dx=x1-x0 dy=y1-y0 d=arrow_length/sqr(dxdx+dydy) dx=d dy=d line (x0,y0)-(x0+dx,y0+dy) line (x0+dx,y0+dy)-(x0+dx.5-dy.5,y0+dy.5+dx.5) line (x0+dx,y0+dy)-(x0+dx.5+dy.5,y0+dy.5-dx.5) or if it's just a line instead of an arrow dx=x1-x0 dy=y1-y0 d=length/sqr(dxdx+dydy) line (x0,y0)-(x0+dxd,y0+dyd)
alexi_drago Muse Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 676	__________________ Thank you for flying Delta Business Express. We hope you enjoyed giving us the business as much as we enjoyed taking you for a ride. Remember, nobody loves you, or your money, more than Delta. Last edited by alexi_drago; 15th June 2012 at 04:35 AM.

15th June 2012, 06:56 AM	#58
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 42,988	Originally Posted by Roboramma Well, if you go back to post #36 you'll see other examples of uses of math that don't only apply to programmers. Myriad was posting about his own need for math, so it's not surprising that some of those uses would be unique to him. However, other people may find different uses for math in their own professions. Of course, programmers probably need more math than the guy who pours your coffee. But generally speaking the world is mathematical, and understanding that mathematics gives insights into understanding the world. Obviously, some professions need more understanding of mathematics than others. The question was "how much mathematics do we need today?" Anecdote alert: I can get by with basic arithmetic, because I'm not an engineer, a scientist or a programmer. I've never encountered a situation in my life where I've needed even the simplest algebra. I've yet to see a good argument for me to learn more mathematics than I already know, especially since I don't appear to be particularly good at it (I stumble somewhere before simultaneous equations). Seems to me that people who are already interested in, and good at, mathematics tend to gravitate towards those professions where they can use that ability. The rest of us make coffee for them. Actually, the rest of us do a lot of valuable work. Just not mathematical work.
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

15th June 2012, 08:34 AM	#59
Death Blow Student Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 34	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Obviously, some professions need more understanding of mathematics than others. The question was "how much mathematics do we need today?" Anecdote alert: I can get by with basic arithmetic, because I'm not an engineer, a scientist or a programmer. I've never encountered a situation in my life where I've needed even the simplest algebra. I've yet to see a good argument for me to learn more mathematics than I already know, especially since I don't appear to be particularly good at it (I stumble somewhere before simultaneous equations). Seems to me that people who are already interested in, and good at, mathematics tend to gravitate towards those professions where they can use that ability. The rest of us make coffee for them. Actually, the rest of us do a lot of valuable work. Just not mathematical work. Lies!!! There is no valuable work without mathematics!!! Just kidding. Actually, I agree with most of what you said. My brother works as a low level chemist and doesn't have much use for math beyond arithmetic either. Most jobs are probably that way and most people can probably get by without needing much math knowledge. Personally I still find math knowledge valuable as it adds to one's critical thinking repertoire and makes some problems easier to solve which perhaps could have been solved another way, but less accurately or in a more time consuming way. The real value in math knowledge, in my opinion, isn't that it is really necessary (in most cases), but that it just makes people's lives easier.
Death Blow Student Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 34

15th June 2012, 08:34 AM	#60
DrDave Guest Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 3,110	You've never needed algebra? I find that hard to believe. If you've ever worked out anything like "I have $500, and need to pay $300 rent and $50 a week for food. How many books can I afford to buy each week if they are $7 on average and it's 2 weeks till payday" you're algebraing.

15th June 2012, 02:42 PM	#61
DazzaD Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Romford Posts: 303	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Obviously, some professions need more understanding of mathematics than others. The question was "how much mathematics do we need today?" Anecdote alert: I can get by with basic arithmetic, because I'm not an engineer, a scientist or a programmer. I've never encountered a situation in my life where I've needed even the simplest algebra. I've yet to see a good argument for me to learn more mathematics than I already know, especially since I don't appear to be particularly good at it (I stumble somewhere before simultaneous equations). Seems to me that people who are already interested in, and good at, mathematics tend to gravitate towards those professions where they can use that ability. The rest of us make coffee for them. Actually, the rest of us do a lot of valuable work. Just not mathematical work. As others have pointed out you are using mathematical skills and 'doing' mathematics practically every hour of every day of your life... maybe you just dont realise it (or more likely for the general public dont recognise it as such). When my kids ask me about algebra my first explanation is "finding something you dont know" - you paid for a choccy with a fiver and got £2.20 in change...how much did it cost? does that stack up against your expectations? Deciding on a route - decision mathematics (or graph theory) Working out if you can cross the road before being splatted by the car - kinematics and probability Putting your lunch in the lunchbox - very difficult problem in maths - packing we could go on throughout your daily routine... Whether you choose to accept or recognise it as mathematics is another matter... You can also extend this argument to much higher level mathematics but of course most people cannot use this in their day to day life because they dont understand it and therefore cant see its use or application! (today one of my further maths students was asking me about cardiods and we got side tracked into art, design, logos, print briefs etc)

16th June 2012, 04:04 AM	#62
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 42,988	How many people use mathematical logic when packing a lunchbox? I just put the biggest thing in first, then pack the smaller things around it without worrying too much about working out how many square centimetres a banana occupies. Process like this can be mathematised, in order to find an ideal solution. That's what your GPS does when it finds a route for you. Me, I just go whichever way seems best at the time. It might not be the most efficient way, but I rarely stop to think about what is the most efficient way. There's no need, even before I had GPS. I don't calculate the position of the ball before I catch it. Though this is technically a mathematical process, I don't use maths to catch the ball. I just catch it.
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

16th June 2012, 04:57 AM	#63
h.g.Whiz Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Egoville Posts: 3,082	Originally Posted by DrDave You've never needed algebra? I find that hard to believe. If you've ever worked out anything like "I have $500, and need to pay $300 rent and $50 a week for food. How many books can I afford to buy each week if they are $7 on average and it's 2 weeks till payday" you're algebraing. Ain't there apps for such algebra, I know there is Gutenberg for free books.
	__________________ Reading this sentence is ineluctable.

16th June 2012, 10:03 AM	#64
DazzaD Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Romford Posts: 303	Originally Posted by arthwollipot How many people use mathematical logic when packing a lunchbox? I just put the biggest thing in first, then pack the smaller things around it without worrying too much about working out how many square centimetres a banana occupies. Process like this can be mathematised, in order to find an ideal solution. That's what your GPS does when it finds a route for you. Me, I just go whichever way seems best at the time. It might not be the most efficient way, but I rarely stop to think about what is the most efficient way. There's no need, even before I had GPS. I don't calculate the position of the ball before I catch it. Though this is technically a mathematical process, I don't use maths to catch the ball. I just catch it. But that is my point. I would contend you ARE using maths... you may not sit down and write out some stuff on a piece of paper (and likely neither would I)... but you/your brain/your body is using mathematics and the skills involved in mathematics to solve that problem. Mathematics is more universal than most people would perceive (in my opinion)... Some examples just from yesterday (contrived slightly in that I am a maths teacher)... One of my Further Mathematics girls was asking for help on sketching cardiods... investigating this led us into a discussion on spirals, the logos of certain companies, how to specify fully the shape of the curve to protect a trademark and to produce a design brief.. Another was asking about asymptotes and we got side tracked into a discussion on zero sheep in the field as opposed to no sheep in the field.. Another was asking about simultaneous equations in solving a problem in buying combinations of items in the way that would be the best value for money One class was looking at lottery numbers and the frequency in which they came up and starting to look at whether knowing that can effect future outcomes and therefore influence their potential winnings My year 10s were working out the length of a go kart track using circles and sectors. Some younger ones were working out how much paint they need to paint their bedroom, how much it would cost, how to build in some contingency plans for estimating the amounts correctly, what was the best way to buy the paint... We also looked at ratios in recipes Understanding the ticket prices on a car parking ticket machine Working out profit margins for a cafe Estimating journey times on a visit to family members Looking at the cheapest mobile phone tariff Looking at bus timetables Working out the cheapest way to buy soap powder Working out how long it takes to heat some water up Working out how long it takes to empty a sink Ok, fair enough, my Year 7, 8, and 9 all had end of year tests this week and my Year 11, 12 and 13 are all in their exam period, but the point is this was JUST the discussions I had in a single day. My wife is the best person to ask probably. She constantly bemoans the way in which I have to incorporate maths and science into the most mundane aspects of life! Also.. on Wednesday our girls had a talk from a bloke at Cambridge University about how to gain entrance to the top unis in the UK. He was constantly banging on about mathematics (A level maths and Further Maths)... it struck them quite a bit when he listed the top things they look for in arts and humanities entries - english lit, history, geography and maths. He explained why .. it wasnt just about the direct skills, it was about the way it taught you to think, to rationalise, to analyse, to model, to experiment, to trial, to solve, to break down, to generalise, to prove.. a logical, systematic method... Take a look at the following (and related articles from that link) and see if you are still convince you dont need/use higher maths in everyday life. http://www.mathscareers.org.uk/viewI...?cit_id=382712
	Last edited by DazzaD; 16th June 2012 at 10:09 AM.

17th June 2012, 04:02 AM	#65
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 42,988	Originally Posted by DazzaD But that is my point. I would contend you ARE using maths... you may not sit down and write out some stuff on a piece of paper (and likely neither would I)... but you/your brain/your body is using mathematics and the skills involved in mathematics to solve that problem. Nope. When I catch a ball, that's muscle memory and physical training. Purely physical. Ask any baseball player whether they even know what a parabola is. I'd bet that not one of them calculate an x² in their heads when they catch a fly ball. Instead, they rely on their physical training. The path of the ball can be calculated mathematically, but no-one does that when they're catching it.
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

17th June 2012, 05:16 AM	#66
yog_sothoth Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 330	I use math, including simple calculus and statistics quite often. I haven't solved a differential equation for a while though. I do really enjoy what some expertise in a good spreadsheet program lets you do these days.

17th June 2012, 11:01 AM	#67
DazzaD Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Romford Posts: 303	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Nope. When I catch a ball, that's muscle memory and physical training. Purely physical. Ask any baseball player whether they even know what a parabola is. I'd bet that not one of them calculate an x² in their heads when they catch a fly ball. Instead, they rely on their physical training. The path of the ball can be calculated mathematically, but no-one does that when they're catching it. My point is you are using maths at some level. Of course neither of us would sit and calculate the path using projectile mechanics.. but you know the ball wont swerve back up, you can predict its path by the very nature of its parabolic path, and of course experience and practice improves this but nonetheless you have an inkling of what to do the firs time you go to "catch a ball" or something new as an adult because of the predictive and analytical nature of the maths involved. Maths is more than just writing sums down on a page.

17th June 2012, 11:29 AM	#68
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,985	How much mathematics do we need today? 6.5 grams per day is enough for most people. Higher amounts may cause cancer.

17th June 2012, 11:35 AM	#69
TjW Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: up in the air Posts: 9,974	How much mathematics do we need today? 42.
	__________________ TjW People like TjW -- Kelly

17th June 2012, 07:08 PM	#70
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 42,988	Originally Posted by DazzaD My point is you are using maths at some level. Of course neither of us would sit and calculate the path using projectile mechanics.. but you know the ball wont swerve back up, you can predict its path by the very nature of its parabolic path, and of course experience and practice improves this but nonetheless you have an inkling of what to do the firs time you go to "catch a ball" or something new as an adult because of the predictive and analytical nature of the maths involved. Maths is more than just writing sums down on a page. Okay, clearly we're talking past each other here.
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

17th June 2012, 07:42 PM	#71
psionl0 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°58'S 115°57'E Posts: 4,767	Originally Posted by TjW How much mathematics do we need today? 42. Recycling posts already?

17th June 2012, 08:50 PM	#72
Perpetual Student Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 3,709	On second thought, I would like to amend my earlier post as follows: The value of mathematics reaches across so many disciplines within the sciences, the crafts, the arts, business and virtually all aspects of everyday life. So, I have no idea why one would not want to know as much mathematics as he/she has the time and capacity to learn. In addition (for some of us) mathematics is also rewarding in and of itself.
	__________________ _{It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong. - Richard P. Feynman} ξ

17th June 2012, 09:12 PM	#73
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,503	Originally Posted by arthwollipot So I need to be able to understand how my calculator works before I can use it? Sorry, I'm not buying it. You need to understand what it does, not how it does it.
	__________________ The Power to Quit

17th June 2012, 11:28 PM	#74
Roboramma Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 7,095	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Obviously, some professions need more understanding of mathematics than others. The question was "how much mathematics do we need today?" Yes, and as I said, if you go back to post #36 most of Myriad's examples don't apply to any particular profession.
	__________________ "... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov

18th June 2012, 01:13 AM	#75
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,172	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Nope. When I catch a ball, that's muscle memory and physical training. Purely physical. Ask any baseball player whether they even know what a parabola is. I'd bet that not one of them calculate an x² in their heads when they catch a fly ball. Instead, they rely on their physical training. The path of the ball can be calculated mathematically, but no-one does that when they're catching it. How to catch a ball in a two dimensional world (Up/down and back and forward) 1. Look at the ball. If it is moving downwards accelerate forwards. 2. Look at the ball. If it is moving upwards accelerate backwards. 3. Look at the ball. If it will hit you within seconds get ready to catch the ball, then catch it. Exit the ball catching routine. 4. Go to step 1. No maths involved. Edit. Upwards and downwards refer to the angle you see the ball.
	__________________ dddffffpppqqqq Want to use your computer for something that will make society better? See this thread for details Folding@home Last edited by rjh01; 18th June 2012 at 01:15 AM.