Puma Punku

[steve mccarron]

Originally Posted by carlitos

The world is not really waiting.

You dismissed all of the explanations, articles and journal cites that I posted in my first post in this thread without even reading them. Now you want me to find you another video. Not interested.

You want to overturn consensus history and archaeology and to support that view you offer nothing bar incredulity and ignorance. That's not going to accomplish anything in the real world.

Dismissed because they have no detail just generalisations, like your opinions really.

If it was so easy to work these stones in the way claimed, some of the techniques would have perculated down through time. Espeacially sawing granite with copper sheet and have been employed in other parts of the world, Cornwall for instance.

Wheres the video evidence, you tube shows everthing, you know that, it would definatley show this stuff.


Still waiting............

[GeeMack]

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

Do you know what ORIGINAL thinking is.

You mean like the kind of original thinking that results in an exchange like this?...

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

Originally Posted by The Don

So steve mccarron, if the Tiwanaku didn't use stone and/or bronze tools, do you have an alternative explanation ?

No, I do not.

[GeeMack]

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

Wheres the video evidence, you tube shows everthing, you know that, it would definatley show this stuff.

Still waiting............

That's called deflecting the burden of proof. It's dishonest. It's a lot like lying.

[DC]

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

Dismissed because they have no detail just generalisations, like your opinions really.

If it was so easy to work these stones in the way claimed, some of the techniques would have perculated down through time. Espeacially sawing granite with copper sheet and have been employed in other parts of the world, Cornwall for instance.

Wheres the video evidence, you tube shows everthing, you know that, it would definatley show this stuff.


Still waiting............

there are also no videos showing other techniques, YT doesnt show lost technologies being use, they dont show aliens building it, what can we conclude? Puma Punku does not exist.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

It it is claimed for the egyptians however, and it goes hand in glove with all the other rubbish assertions.

Still waiting......................

again, thats another misrepresentation, the Egyptians used copper saws but used quartz sand as a cutting agent. You'll agree that quartz is hard enough to cut granite I'm sure

Besides which, we are discussing Pumapunku, not Egypt, the two are thousands of miles apart and thousands of years apart in time, are you trying to propose contact ?
would that be Aliens or people from Atlantis in your opinion ?

[steve mccarron]

Originally Posted by DC

why should i work out anything when it is you that has problem with already published academics explenation, i merely asked you what those explenations are, you are not even able to name them. very strange, now you want me to work it out on my own? wth?

and where is the video of you doing mason work?

Yep, I'm definatley here, no need for a video, and very definatley qualified to talk here. I could not be prepared to debate this with any stone mason chums you might know unless i knew what i was talking about. C'mon.


Has anyone seen a video which shows a peice of rose granite being sawn in a timeley and professional way. I would love to see one.

[carlitos]

rose granite?

Thanks for the explanation on mohs.

I was noodling around for mohs measurements and found this little gem - didn't someone mention quartzite earlier?

Quote:

Ancient Aliens - the shocking truth pt 2 - YouTube

► 19:29► 19:29
www.youtube.com/watch?v=590Jsz5ZQNs
Jun 25, 2011 - 19 min - Uploaded by SuperSoylent2
Quartzite = 7 on the Mohs scale while granite offers a hardness value of between 6 and 6.5 on the Mohs scale ...

[steve mccarron]

Originally Posted by Marduk

again, thats another misrepresentation, the Egyptians used copper saws but used quartz sand as a cutting agent. You'll agree that quartz is hard enough to cut granite I'm sure

Besides which, we are discussing Pumapunku, not Egypt, the two are thousands of miles apart and thousands of years apart in time, are you trying to propose contact ?
would that be Aliens or people from Atlantis in your opinion ?

Plenty of quartz in Cornwall, but sadly they missed this trick. Stupid Cornish.

Since quartz is one of the main ingredients of rose granite, what happens is that in a slot with a reciprocating blade, the quartz just turns to dust and slows down the cutting

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

Has anyone seen a video which shows a peice of rose granite being sawn in a timeley and professional way. I would love to see one.

there is no rose granite at Puma Punku either
Please keep your errant speculation focused on red sandstone and andesite
ok ?

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

Plenty of quartz in Cornwall, but sadly they missed this trick. Stupid Cornish.

Since quartz is one of the main ingredients of rose granite, what happens is that in a slot with a reciprocating blade, the quartz just turns to dust and slows down the cutting

There is no quartz sand in cornwall, its all Silica sand, the closest deposit is in Cheshire,
so another straw man argument from you.

and again, we are discussing Pumapunku, do you understand the term "off topic" and why it isn't accepted at this forum
thats because its in the rules which you should have read but haven't

Quote:

H1. Off topic posts may be moved to new threads. While some thread drift is to be expected, threads can end up with multiple separate discussions running in parallel. In such cases some posts may be split to one or more new threads to make them easier to find and follow. Members can request for such derails to be split to a new thread.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=25744

[steve mccarron]

Damn those illusive ancients, damn those illusive videos..

[carlitos]

elusive.

[GeeMack]

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

Yep, I'm definatley here, no need for a video, and very definatley qualified to talk here. I could not be prepared to debate this with any stone mason chums you might know unless i knew what i was talking about. C'mon.

Yet for all your proclaimed qualifications, you continue to insist you aren't sufficiently qualified to explain construction of the monuments at Puma Punku. And nobody seems to be disagreeing with you on that point. Do you think there's anyone in the world who is qualified?

Quote:

Has anyone seen a video which shows a peice of rose granite being sawn in a timeley and professional way. I would love to see one.

That's still called deflecting the burden of proof. It's still dishonest. It's still a lot like lying.

[steve mccarron]

Originally Posted by Marduk

there is no rose granite at Puma Punku either
Please keep your errant speculation focused on red sandstone and andesite
ok ?

It's my topic, start your own [SNIP]
I'm shocked, no rose granite at puma punku, woah......

I'm not being speculative, wheres your video dude..

Still waiting...

Edited by kmortis:

Removed personal comment

[DC]

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

Yep, I'm definatley here, no need for a video, and very definatley qualified to talk here. I could not be prepared to debate this with any stone mason chums you might know unless i knew what i was talking about. C'mon.


Has anyone seen a video which shows a peice of rose granite being sawn in a timeley and professional way. I would love to see one.

aslong i have not seen a YT video of you doing masonry work, i do not accept your claim that you are qualified. i think you are a fraud.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

If it was so easy to work these stones in the way claimed, some of the techniques would have perculated down through time.

Just because it is possible to do something in a particular way doesn't mean that there isn't a better way of doing things. I was recently watching a TV programme where they mentioned the making of the bridge in Coalbrookdale and in particular a "new" way of fashioning the scaffolding they reverse engineered from a contemporary painting that had been recently found in a Swedish archive.

It was a surprisingly efficient way of doing things which was previously unknown and as far as anyone knew had not been employed anywhere else. With modern techniques it is pointless but nevertheless could have been useful 150 years ago if anyone had remembered it.

So there's no guarantee that good techniques will persist

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

Espeacially sawing granite with copper sheet and have been employed in other parts of the world, Cornwall for instance.

Why ? Different civilisations have often found different ways to achieve the same kind of thing. Sometimes local methods persist even in the face of superior techniques imported from abroad (the English football team springs to mind )

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

Wheres the video evidence, you tube shows everthing, you know that, it would definatley show this stuff.

You've rejected all evidence presented so far.

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

Still waiting............

[GeeMack]

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

It's my topic, start your own [SNIP].

I'm shocked, no rose granite at puma punku, woah......

I'm not being speculative, wheres your video dude..

Still waiting...

Edited by kmortis:

Removed personal comment

We get it. You don't have the stone working expertise necessary to explain the monuments at Puma Punku, you don't believe any of the explanations provided by experts in the field, and despite your alleged qualifications, you don't have any explanation of your own. And for some reason you want other people to do your research for you. Yes, we get it. How's that dishonest strategy working out for you?

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

It's my topic, ...

It isn't your thread, its the JREF's, learn the difference in the short time you have left please

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

I'm shocked, no rose granite at puma punku, woah......

I'm not being speculative, wheres your video dude..

Still waiting...

so you want me to produce a video that doesn't show rose granite at Pumapunku ?
I would have thought any video of the site would show that

[steve mccarron]

Originally Posted by GeeMack

Yet for all your proclaimed qualifications, you continue to insist you aren't sufficiently qualified to explain construction of the monuments at Puma Punku. And nobody seems to be disagreeing with you on that point. Do you think there's anyone in the world who is qualified?




That's still called deflecting the burden of proof. It's still dishonest. It's still a lot like lying.

People are in a rush to be first, but quite often end up in a rush to be wrong.

It's not a lack of qualification that makes me question the status quo here, it's only because I am very qualified I can come here in this way and take the unbridled critique.

[steve mccarron]

Originally Posted by Marduk

It isn't your thread, its the JREF's, learn the difference in the short time you have left please


so you want me to produce a video that doesn't show rose granite at Pumapunku ?
I would have thought any video of the site would show that

???

[carlitos]

Just a heads up that googling "steve mccarron stone" yields this thread as the first result. If that is someone's real name, they might want to carefully consider their comportment here.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

<SNIP>

Edited by Locknar:

SNIPed, breach of Rule 0, Rule 12.

I was not saying that metals did not exist in Cornwall, I was asking why copper was never used to drill and cut granite there.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND??

OMFSM, how many days until we start USING CAPS AND ACTING HYSTERICAL?

Chill out dude, we all pick at each other all the time, it is what the JREF does. relax read around, learn the culture.

Your point is still irrelevant any way.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

People are in a rush to be first, but quite often end up in a rush to be wrong.

It's not a lack of qualification that makes me question the status quo here, it's only because I am very qualified I can come here in this way and take the unbridled critique.

That's quite true. Often the first explanation is either overturned or refined by later theories.

What we currently have are some theories which are supported by experimental archaeology albeit on a limited basis.

To question these theories it would be beneficial to detail why the previous theories are wrong (and in the case of experimental archaeology, where the experiment was wrong) and ideally an alternative theory would be offered.

So in an absence of an alternative theory, all we have is an out of hand rejection of the established theories and a request for others do the research to come up with alternatives.

[steve mccarron]

Anyway, I'm off to watch some football..

While I'm gone, see if you can find the video. Oh and as for MY PLAN, I'm clever enough to do my own research, I certainley wouldnt come here for enlightenment. Cheek.

So, can anybody find a video of some granite being cut with a copper blade and sand and quartz and water and elbow grease.

If it is shown it can be done then I might accept the barmier claims of the Experts

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

The trouble is, the evidence based belief is based on circumspection rather than real trials. That is why there are not definitive claims of understanding with schoolchildren etc replicating these wonderous revelations and students trying these methods out for themselves.

Why isn't the internet full of videos of people cutting and working stones in this way then?, can anybody explain why.

Why isn't the internet full of videos of people making stone tools? Or bone beads? Why is it not full of videos showing how people made damascus steel?

Learn to explain yourself clearly and not make generalizations and false dichotomies.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

I have NEVER been shown a video of a peice of granite being cut from start to finish with a copper blade.

If you can send me the link, anybody, I will go away never to return.

I have seen a video of somebody APPEARING to do this in a block of stone which had already been partially cut. They struggle and then add water and then the blade jams, as it will because the particles get stuck IN the blades sides. At that point, there is no more cutting.

You can tell that it was pre cut from the shoulders.

Is the claim at Pumapunku that they were cutting granite with copper blades?

This is commonly called moving the goal posts, a false dichotomy and over generalization.

[steve mccarron]

Originally Posted by The Don

That's quite true. Often the first explanation is either overturned or refined by later theories.

What we currently have are some theories which are supported by experimental archaeology albeit on a limited basis.

To question these theories it would be beneficial to detail why the previous theories are wrong (and in the case of experimental archaeology, where the experiment was wrong) and ideally an alternative theory would be offered.

So in an absence of an alternative theory, all we have is an out of hand rejection of the established theories and a request for others do the research to come up with alternatives.

I don't want people to do research for me thank you. But this is the place that supports logic. I think it is supporting the wrong logic. If somebody says it was built with alien tech, then without hesitation the "experts" are quoted and people are quite rightley told to grow up. The trouble is, the expert view is not right in itself and lends weight to the alt theorists.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

I have NEVER been shown a video of a peice of granite being cut from start to finish with a copper blade.

If you can send me the link, anybody, I will go away never to return.

I have seen a video of somebody APPEARING to do this in a block of stone which had already been partially cut. They struggle and then add water and then the blade jams, as it will because the particles get stuck IN the blades sides. At that point, there is no more cutting.

You can tell that it was pre cut from the shoulders.

What does this have to do with Pumapunku?

[steve mccarron]

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Is the claim at Pumapunku that they were cutting granite with copper blades?

This is commonly called moving the goal posts, a false dichotomy and over generalization.

My claim is same MO, same theorists, same rubbish theories.

Video please....

[steve mccarron]

Anyway, I'm off to watch some football..

While I'm gone, see if you can find the video. Oh and as for MY PLAN, I'm clever enough to do my own research, I certainley wouldnt come here for enlightenment. Cheek.

So, can anybody find a video of some granite being cut with a copper blade and sand and quartz and water and elbow grease.

If it is shown it can be done then I might accept the barmier claims of the Experts

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

It it is claimed for the egyptians however, and it goes hand in glove with all the other rubbish assertions.

Still waiting......................

That is still a lack of critical examination of your own argument.

What is the specific claim for Pumapunku? That the andesite and sandstone were cut with copper tools?

So narrow your discussion and stop creating false dichotomies.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

Do you know what ORIGINAL thinking is.

Have you ever worked something scientific out all on your own because you had a hunch and nothing more.

Would you like to be paid to do that kind of thing.

Operating without the safety net of academic explanation.

Heady stuff eh..


Wheres the video??, do you know?

Check your ego at the door.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

Plenty of quartz in Cornwall, but sadly they missed this trick. Stupid Cornish.

Since quartz is one of the main ingredients of rose granite, what happens is that in a slot with a reciprocating blade, the quartz just turns to dust and slows down the cutting

Sadly this means you haven't a clue of what a false dichotomy is.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

it's only because I am very qualified I can come here in this way and take the unbridled critique.

there's no need for you to reassert your credentials, we've all seen you expertly claim that sandstone is generic and granite is ductile, so I think we're all familiar with your level of education

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

It's my topic, start your own [SNIP]
I'm shocked, no rose granite at puma punku, woah......

I'm not being speculative, wheres your video dude..

Still waiting...

Edited by kmortis:

Removed personal comment

Wow, and in how many days has this looning meltdown occured.

Mr. MacCarron, examine your own arguments, when I say a false dichotomy, look at those words.

Examine how your argument uses false dichotomies ie 'in my knowledge they did not use copper tools to cut granite in Cornwall therefore they could not have used it to cut the stones at Pumapunku'

That is a false dichotomy.

[EHocking]

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

...Some limestones are metamorphic

Just as sandstone is not a generic term, neither if this statement correct.

A metamorphosed limestone is no longer limestone. It is marble.
The hint is in the word "metamorphosed".

Quote:

and are like glass to carve

Perhaps you are confusing this with quartzite, which is metamorphosed sandstone.

[EHocking]

Originally Posted by EHocking

Just as sandstone is not a generic term, neither if this statement correct.

A metamorphosed limestone is no longer limestone. It is marble.
The hint is in the word "metamorphosed".
Perhaps you are confusing this with quartzite, which is metamorphosed sandstone.

Blagging stonemasons might get away with such imprecision in the description of their working materiel, but archaologists and geologists don't.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

I don't want people to do research for me thank you. But this is the place that supports logic. I think it is supporting the wrong logic. If somebody says it was built with alien tech, then without hesitation the "experts" are quoted and people are quite rightley told to grow up. The trouble is, the expert view is not right in itself and lends weight to the alt theorists.

ahhh, now we're getting somewhere
are you familiar with the claims of the alt theories, I'm only asking because several times you've been attempting to pass off alt theories as the claims made by academic orthodoxy, so that you can then claim they are stupid (allegedly like the cornish)
this is called a straw man argument, its one of a number of informal fallacies that you seem unaware off
heres a link, you never know, it might help you to read this one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
but yanno, because I'm so helpful I'll post the description, just in case you were going to pretend it didn't happen later on

Quote:

A straw man is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position

no need to thank me

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by EHocking

Perhaps you are confusing this with quartzite, which is metamorphosed sandstone.

Some silica cemented sandstones are very hard. Have no experience with trying to work them and have no idea how they approach the hardness of quartzite.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Some silica cemented sandstones are very hard. Have no experience with trying to work them and have no idea how they approach the hardness of quartzite.

silica cemented sandstones Mohs 4 to 7
Quartzite Mohs 7, same as Quartz

[GeeMack]

Originally Posted by steve mccarron

Anyway, I'm off to watch some football..

While I'm gone, see if you can find the video. Oh and as for MY PLAN, I'm clever enough to do my own research, [...]

Yet in all your research, you've failed to come up with an explanation that you understand or accept.

Quote:

[...] I certainley wouldnt come here for enlightenment.

You say you wouldn't come here for enlightenment, yet in your next sentence you appear to be seeking it...

Quote:

So, can anybody find a video of some granite being cut with a copper blade and sand and quartz and water and elbow grease.

If it is shown it can be done then I might accept the barmier claims of the Experts

We get it. Despite your alleged cleverness, you do want other people to do your research for you.

Just so we can stay on track, here's where the thread started...

• You admitted that your knowledge and skills were insufficient to explain the construction of the Puma Punku structures.
  
  
• You were unaware of many explanations which have been provided by experts in the field, and didn't believe any that you were aware of.
  
  
• You have no explanation of your own.

And after 400 posts, it has progressed to this point...

• Your knowledge and skills are still insufficient to explain, to your satisfaction, the construction of the Puma Punku structures.
  
  
• You are still unaware of many explanations which have been provided by experts, and still don't believe those that you are aware of.
  
  
• You are still unable to offer an alternative explanation.