Bible fallacies and internal contradictions - Page 2

MG1962 · 7th June 2012, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

I should have thought that was obvious.

Clearly it wasn't - The Magi's journey was in search of their own knowledge and truths, following religious and astrological systems of their own culture

dafydd · 7th June 2012, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Clearly it wasn't - The Magi's journey was in search of their own knowledge and truths, following religious and astrological systems of their own culture

Is this journey mentioned in any history book? It's just an old story, methinks.

rjh01 · 7th June 2012, 04:44 PM

Have I missed something? I would have thought this would have been mentioned already
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

dafydd · 7th June 2012, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by rjh01

Have I missed something? I would have thought this would have been mentioned already
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Something else for the believers to ignore.

MG1962 · 7th June 2012, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Is this journey mentioned in any history book? It's just an old story, methinks.

The Hittites were not mentioned in any history book for 3200 years - and they were real

dafydd · 7th June 2012, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

The Hittites were not mentioned in any history book for 3200 years - and they were real

Nobody is claiming that the Hittites had magic powers. Bad analogy. Where is the historical record and archaeology that proves Jesus existed and had magic powers?

joobz · 7th June 2012, 04:54 PM

Of course, one could attempt a variety of games to make the stories coherent and consistent. One could also accept the idea that greedo shot first.

The simple question I've asked in the past is, would a christian accept the same level of mental gymnastics used to believe the Qur'an is inherent?

The arguments needed to believe the bible is inherent are only convincing to those who want to believe.

MG1962 · 7th June 2012, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Nobody is claiming that the Hittites had magic powers. Bad analogy. Where is the historical record and archaeology that proves Jesus existed and had magic powers?

Sorry who mentioned Jesus - you were challenging the existence of the Magi or if they would have undertaken their journey. The thing is we know that trip would have been pretty routine for them. They regularly traded as far as the tip of the Arabian peninsular

dafydd · 7th June 2012, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by joobz

The simple question I've asked in the past is, would a christian accept the same level of mental gymnastics used to believe the Qur'an is inherent?
.

And the Mahabharata.

MG1962 · 7th June 2012, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by joobz

Of course, one could attempt a variety of games to make the stories coherent and consistent. One could also accept the idea that greedo shot first.

The simple question I've asked in the past is, would a christian accept the same level of mental gymnastics used to believe the Qur'an is inherent?

The arguments needed to believe the bible is inherent are only convincing to those who want to believe.

Unless I am mistaken the Qur'an was written in response to claims the Bible had been corrupted by man, so while most Christian would not - its actually not hard to empathies with the motivations of Muslims and the word of God

dafydd · 7th June 2012, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

The thing is we know that trip would have been pretty routine for them. They regularly traded as far as the tip of the Arabian peninsular

What has that got to do with the fallacies and contradictions in the bible? They were traders around back then, I already knew that. Were all these traders wise men and kings?

MG1962 · 7th June 2012, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

What has that got to do with the fallacies and contradictions in the bible? They were traders around back then, I already knew that. Were all these traders wise men and kings?

Ask ddt - he was the one who brought up the Magi and the likelihood of their actions

dafydd · 7th June 2012, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Ask ddt - he was the one who brought up the Magi and the likelihood of their actions

Just to illustrate one of the bible's many fantasies. Shall we move on to another one?

MG1962 · 7th June 2012, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Just to illustrate one of the bible's many fantasies. Shall we move on to another one?

You can do whatever you want - It is a free forum after all. I will probably wait for ddt to follow up with his thoughts on my post and go from there

dafydd · 7th June 2012, 05:13 PM

What about this one?

MAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

MG1962 · 7th June 2012, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

What about this one?

MAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

What about it?

dafydd · 7th June 2012, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

What about it?

You don't know? Try this one.

Matthew 2:13-16 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. "Get up," he said, "take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him." So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son." When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.

Luke 2:39 When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him.

Did Mary and Joseph flee to Egypt or not? Pardon me for sticking to the topic of the thread.

MG1962 · 7th June 2012, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

You don't know? Try this one.

Matthew 2:13-16 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. "Get up," he said, "take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him." So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son." When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.

Luke 2:39 When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him.

Did Mary and Joseph flee to Egypt or not? Pardon me for sticking to the topic of the thread.

Sure and I am sure when a Bible literalist comes along they may try to explain the inconsistencies. Personally I find it fascinating the inconsistencies exist in the New Testement

dafydd · 7th June 2012, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Personally I find it fascinating the inconsistencies exist in the New Testement

Why? Do you regard it as a work of fiction too?

MG1962 · 7th June 2012, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Why? Do you regard it as a work of fiction too?

The 4 gospels were decided on as the core of the New Testament by the 2nd Cent AD. I have always been fascinated by the lack of consistency between the documents, and why those inconsistencies remain after all this time.

One would think those inventing a religion to dominate the world and delude the masses would have taken a little care in staying on message

dafydd · 7th June 2012, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

One would think those inventing a religion to dominate the world and delude the masses would have taken a little care in staying on message

Quite right.

I Ratant · 7th June 2012, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Christ is not even a requirement for the Magi story to be true

.
The behavior of objects outside the atmosphere is though.
Nothing outside the atmosphere can move and point to a place on the ground.
The earth rotates... .. and a "star in the East" moves to the west THAT night!
Everything in the firmament does!
And it rises at a different location every evening, and sets in a different location every night.
No one at that time could move fast enough to keep up with a star.
The rotational speed of the earth at the latitude of Israel is not much less than 1000 miles per hour.
And where anything outside the atmosphere "points" to is totally dependent on the viewer's location.

I Ratant · 7th June 2012, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Sorry who mentioned Jesus - you were challenging the existence of the Magi or if they would have undertaken their journey. The thing is we know that trip would have been pretty routine for them. They regularly traded as far as the tip of the Arabian peninsular

.
Using what methods of travel?
1000 mph camels?
Or 20 miles per day on foot, on a good day.

dafydd · 7th June 2012, 05:51 PM

The tale is fine for children and the school Nativity play but it doesn't hold water for a second.

MG1962 · 7th June 2012, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
The behavior of objects outside the atmosphere is though.
Nothing outside the atmosphere can move and point to a place on the ground.
The earth rotates... .. and a "star in the East" moves to the west THAT night!
Everything in the firmament does!
And it rises at a different location every evening, and sets in a different location every night.
No one at that time could move fast enough to keep up with a star.
The rotational speed of the earth at the latitude of Israel is not much less than 1000 miles per hour.
And where anything outside the atmosphere "points" to is totally dependent on the viewer's location.

And what happens the next night?

dafydd · 7th June 2012, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

And what happens the next night?

The phrase ''And it rises at a different location every evening, and sets in a different location every night.'' may answer your question.

MG1962 · 7th June 2012, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

The phrase ''And it rises at a different location every evening, and sets in a different location every night.'' may answer your question.

No actually it doesn't

rjh01 · 7th June 2012, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

The 4 gospels were decided on as the core of the New Testament by the 2nd Cent AD. I have always been fascinated by the lack of consistency between the documents, and why those inconsistencies remain after all this time.

One would think those inventing a religion to dominate the world and delude the masses would have taken a little care in staying on message

No it would not have been acceptable to have done that. Certain groups would have believed in one of the books and would not accept any changes to it. So the inconsistencies would have to remain.

If there were no inconsistencies then it would be obvious that all four sources are really one source. Even today if two people are talking about the same incident they both saw themselves then you will find inconsistencies between what they say. Is this evidence that one of them is not telling the truth? Or is it that memories are not perfect?

dafydd · 7th June 2012, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by rjh01

No it would not have been acceptable to have done that. Certain groups would have believed in one of the books and would not accept any changes to it. So the inconsistencies would have to remain.

If there were no inconsistencies then it would be obvious that all four sources are really one source. Even today if two people are talking about the same incident they both saw themselves then you will find inconsistencies between what they say. Is this evidence that one of them is not telling the truth? Or is it that memories are not perfect?

The bible is true because it is full of contradictions does not sound like a good advert for the supposed infallible word of god.

The Dark Lord · 7th June 2012, 06:21 PM

The Bible is perfect. It says so right in the Bible. Therefore there are no fallacies or contradictions. QED.

dafydd · 7th June 2012, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by The Dark Lord

The Bible is perfect. It says so right in the Bible. Therefore there are no fallacies or contradictions. QED.

Except for the obvious ones.

The Dark Lord · 7th June 2012, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Except for the obvious ones.

There are none at all. Because then the Bible wouldn't be inerrant. And if the Bible isn't inerrant, how would we know which parts are true?

dafydd · 7th June 2012, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by The Dark Lord

There are none at all. Because then the Bible wouldn't be inerrant. And if the Bible isn't inerrant, how would we know which parts are true?

Calling bats birds and many other mistakes might give us a clue.

I Ratant · 7th June 2012, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

And what happens the next night?

.
Pick any star...
And the closest star..
Here's what it does over the course of a year.
A different place in the sky relative to a fixed location on the ground, every day of the year.
Find the point on earth where the star rose...
Find the point on earth where the star star sets.
Which point are you gonna to go?
When is the star hovering over your selection long enough to get there from anywhere?

Don't try to get there from here.

I Ratant · 7th June 2012, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

No actually it doesn't

.
Sad, that.

dafydd · 7th June 2012, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
Pick any star...
And the closest star..
Here's what it does over the course of a year.
A different place in the sky relative to a fixed location on the ground, every day of the year.
Find the point on earth where the star rose...
Find the point on earth where the star star sets.
Which point are you gonna to go?
When is the star hovering over your selection long enough to get there from anywhere?

Don't try to get there from here.

Shame on you, bringing facts into the Nativity story!

The Dark Lord · 7th June 2012, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Calling bats birds and many other mistakes might give us a clue.

If the Bible says that bats are birds, that's what I believe. I'll trust the Word of God over your science, thank you.

MG1962 · 7th June 2012, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
Sad, that.

Pop quiz what time will Regulus rise tonight?

MG1962 · 7th June 2012, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
Pick any star...
And the closest star..
Here's what it does over the course of a year.
A different place in the sky relative to a fixed location on the ground, every day of the year.
Find the point on earth where the star rose...
Find the point on earth where the star star sets.
Which point are you gonna to go?
When is the star hovering over your selection long enough to get there from anywhere?

Don't try to get there from here.

You probably need to do a lot more research before you make yourself look any sillier. Here is a tip - fire up your planitarium program, set it for the latitude of Jerusalem set it for Sept 14 3BC and see what you notice

I Ratant · 7th June 2012, 06:42 PM

Sillier than who?
You?
Show us the star pattern at that date.
Show us -the- Star.

7th June 2012, 04:44 PM	#42
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by MG1962 Clearly it wasn't - The Magi's journey was in search of their own knowledge and truths, following religious and astrological systems of their own culture Is this journey mentioned in any history book? It's just an old story, methinks.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

7th June 2012, 04:44 PM	#43
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,188	Have I missed something? I would have thought this would have been mentioned already http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/
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7th June 2012, 04:46 PM	#44
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by rjh01 Have I missed something? I would have thought this would have been mentioned already http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ Something else for the believers to ignore.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

7th June 2012, 04:53 PM	#46
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by MG1962 The Hittites were not mentioned in any history book for 3200 years - and they were real Nobody is claiming that the Hittites had magic powers. Bad analogy. Where is the historical record and archaeology that proves Jesus existed and had magic powers?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away. Last edited by dafydd; 7th June 2012 at 04:55 PM.

7th June 2012, 04:54 PM	#47
joobz Tergiversator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: That's how you get ants Posts: 17,497	Of course, one could attempt a variety of games to make the stories coherent and consistent. One could also accept the idea that greedo shot first. The simple question I've asked in the past is, would a christian accept the same level of mental gymnastics used to believe the Qur'an is inherent? The arguments needed to believe the bible is inherent are only convincing to those who want to believe.
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7th June 2012, 04:38 PM	#41
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by dafydd I should have thought that was obvious. Clearly it wasn't - The Magi's journey was in search of their own knowledge and truths, following religious and astrological systems of their own culture

7th June 2012, 04:51 PM	#45
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by dafydd Is this journey mentioned in any history book? It's just an old story, methinks. The Hittites were not mentioned in any history book for 3200 years - and they were real

7th June 2012, 04:58 PM	#48
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by dafydd Nobody is claiming that the Hittites had magic powers. Bad analogy. Where is the historical record and archaeology that proves Jesus existed and had magic powers? Sorry who mentioned Jesus - you were challenging the existence of the Magi or if they would have undertaken their journey. The thing is we know that trip would have been pretty routine for them. They regularly traded as far as the tip of the Arabian peninsular

7th June 2012, 04:59 PM	#49
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by joobz The simple question I've asked in the past is, would a christian accept the same level of mental gymnastics used to believe the Qur'an is inherent? . And the Mahabharata.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

7th June 2012, 05:01 PM	#50
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by joobz Of course, one could attempt a variety of games to make the stories coherent and consistent. One could also accept the idea that greedo shot first. The simple question I've asked in the past is, would a christian accept the same level of mental gymnastics used to believe the Qur'an is inherent? The arguments needed to believe the bible is inherent are only convincing to those who want to believe. Unless I am mistaken the Qur'an was written in response to claims the Bible had been corrupted by man, so while most Christian would not - its actually not hard to empathies with the motivations of Muslims and the word of God

7th June 2012, 05:03 PM	#51
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by MG1962 The thing is we know that trip would have been pretty routine for them. They regularly traded as far as the tip of the Arabian peninsular What has that got to do with the fallacies and contradictions in the bible? They were traders around back then, I already knew that. Were all these traders wise men and kings?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

7th June 2012, 05:07 PM	#52
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by dafydd What has that got to do with the fallacies and contradictions in the bible? They were traders around back then, I already knew that. Were all these traders wise men and kings? Ask ddt - he was the one who brought up the Magi and the likelihood of their actions

7th June 2012, 05:08 PM	#53
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by MG1962 Ask ddt - he was the one who brought up the Magi and the likelihood of their actions Just to illustrate one of the bible's many fantasies. Shall we move on to another one?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

7th June 2012, 05:11 PM	#54
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by dafydd Just to illustrate one of the bible's many fantasies. Shall we move on to another one? You can do whatever you want - It is a free forum after all. I will probably wait for ddt to follow up with his thoughts on my post and go from there

7th June 2012, 05:13 PM	#55
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	What about this one? MAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost." LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

7th June 2012, 05:15 PM	#56
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by dafydd What about this one? MAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost." LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." What about it?

7th June 2012, 05:20 PM	#57
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by MG1962 What about it? You don't know? Try this one. Matthew 2:13-16 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. "Get up," he said, "take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him." So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son." When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. Luke 2:39 When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him. Did Mary and Joseph flee to Egypt or not? Pardon me for sticking to the topic of the thread.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

7th June 2012, 05:23 PM	#58
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by dafydd You don't know? Try this one. Matthew 2:13-16 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. "Get up," he said, "take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him." So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son." When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. Luke 2:39 When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him. Did Mary and Joseph flee to Egypt or not? Pardon me for sticking to the topic of the thread. Sure and I am sure when a Bible literalist comes along they may try to explain the inconsistencies. Personally I find it fascinating the inconsistencies exist in the New Testement

7th June 2012, 05:28 PM	#59
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by MG1962 Personally I find it fascinating the inconsistencies exist in the New Testement Why? Do you regard it as a work of fiction too?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

7th June 2012, 05:37 PM	#60
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by dafydd Why? Do you regard it as a work of fiction too? The 4 gospels were decided on as the core of the New Testament by the 2nd Cent AD. I have always been fascinated by the lack of consistency between the documents, and why those inconsistencies remain after all this time. One would think those inventing a religion to dominate the world and delude the masses would have taken a little care in staying on message

7th June 2012, 05:38 PM	#61
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by MG1962 One would think those inventing a religion to dominate the world and delude the masses would have taken a little care in staying on message Quite right.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

7th June 2012, 05:44 PM	#62
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by MG1962 Christ is not even a requirement for the Magi story to be true . The behavior of objects outside the atmosphere is though. Nothing outside the atmosphere can move and point to a place on the ground. The earth rotates... .. and a "star in the East" moves to the west THAT night! Everything in the firmament does! And it rises at a different location every evening, and sets in a different location every night. No one at that time could move fast enough to keep up with a star. The rotational speed of the earth at the latitude of Israel is not much less than 1000 miles per hour. And where anything outside the atmosphere "points" to is totally dependent on the viewer's location.

7th June 2012, 05:46 PM	#63
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by MG1962 Sorry who mentioned Jesus - you were challenging the existence of the Magi or if they would have undertaken their journey. The thing is we know that trip would have been pretty routine for them. They regularly traded as far as the tip of the Arabian peninsular . Using what methods of travel? 1000 mph camels? Or 20 miles per day on foot, on a good day.

7th June 2012, 05:51 PM	#64
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	The tale is fine for children and the school Nativity play but it doesn't hold water for a second.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

7th June 2012, 05:57 PM	#65
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by I Ratant . The behavior of objects outside the atmosphere is though. Nothing outside the atmosphere can move and point to a place on the ground. The earth rotates... .. and a "star in the East" moves to the west THAT night! Everything in the firmament does! And it rises at a different location every evening, and sets in a different location every night. No one at that time could move fast enough to keep up with a star. The rotational speed of the earth at the latitude of Israel is not much less than 1000 miles per hour. And where anything outside the atmosphere "points" to is totally dependent on the viewer's location. And what happens the next night?

7th June 2012, 06:06 PM	#66
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by MG1962 And what happens the next night? The phrase ''And it rises at a different location every evening, and sets in a different location every night.'' may answer your question.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

7th June 2012, 06:11 PM	#67
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by dafydd The phrase ''And it rises at a different location every evening, and sets in a different location every night.'' may answer your question. No actually it doesn't

7th June 2012, 06:16 PM	#68
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,188	Originally Posted by MG1962 The 4 gospels were decided on as the core of the New Testament by the 2nd Cent AD. I have always been fascinated by the lack of consistency between the documents, and why those inconsistencies remain after all this time. One would think those inventing a religion to dominate the world and delude the masses would have taken a little care in staying on message No it would not have been acceptable to have done that. Certain groups would have believed in one of the books and would not accept any changes to it. So the inconsistencies would have to remain. If there were no inconsistencies then it would be obvious that all four sources are really one source. Even today if two people are talking about the same incident they both saw themselves then you will find inconsistencies between what they say. Is this evidence that one of them is not telling the truth? Or is it that memories are not perfect?
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7th June 2012, 06:20 PM	#69
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by rjh01 No it would not have been acceptable to have done that. Certain groups would have believed in one of the books and would not accept any changes to it. So the inconsistencies would have to remain. If there were no inconsistencies then it would be obvious that all four sources are really one source. Even today if two people are talking about the same incident they both saw themselves then you will find inconsistencies between what they say. Is this evidence that one of them is not telling the truth? Or is it that memories are not perfect? The bible is true because it is full of contradictions does not sound like a good advert for the supposed infallible word of god.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

7th June 2012, 06:21 PM	#70
The Dark Lord Suspended Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 1,860	The Bible is perfect. It says so right in the Bible. Therefore there are no fallacies or contradictions. QED.
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7th June 2012, 06:24 PM	#71
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by The Dark Lord The Bible is perfect. It says so right in the Bible. Therefore there are no fallacies or contradictions. QED. Except for the obvious ones.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

7th June 2012, 06:28 PM	#72
The Dark Lord Suspended Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 1,860	Originally Posted by dafydd Except for the obvious ones. There are none at all. Because then the Bible wouldn't be inerrant. And if the Bible isn't inerrant, how would we know which parts are true?
The Dark Lord Suspended Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 1,860

7th June 2012, 06:30 PM	#73
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by The Dark Lord There are none at all. Because then the Bible wouldn't be inerrant. And if the Bible isn't inerrant, how would we know which parts are true? Calling bats birds and many other mistakes might give us a clue.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

7th June 2012, 06:33 PM	#75
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by MG1962 No actually it doesn't . Sad, that.

7th June 2012, 06:34 PM	#76
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,475	Originally Posted by I Ratant . Pick any star... And the closest star.. Here's what it does over the course of a year. A different place in the sky relative to a fixed location on the ground, every day of the year. Find the point on earth where the star rose... Find the point on earth where the star star sets. Which point are you gonna to go? When is the star hovering over your selection long enough to get there from anywhere? Don't try to get there from here. Shame on you, bringing facts into the Nativity story!
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