Belief in heaven linked to more crime according to study

Theofrak · 21st June 2012, 09:57 PM

Evidently, the carrot is not better than the stick. According to a recent study from the Department of Psychology of the University of Oregon, belief in heaven may actually be counterproductive when it comes to influencing prosocial behavior.

Quote:

Though religion has been shown to have generally positive effects on normative ‘prosocial’ behavior, recent laboratory research suggests that these effects may be driven primarily by supernatural punishment. Supernatural benevolence, on the other hand, may actually be associated with less prosocial behavior. Here, we investigate these effects at the societal level, showing that the proportion of people who believe in hell negatively predicts national crime rates whereas belief in heaven predicts higher crime rates. These effects remain after accounting for a host of covariates, and ultimately prove stronger predictors of national crime rates than economic variables such as GDP and income inequality. Expanding on laboratory research on religious prosociality, this is the first study to tie religious beliefs to large-scale cross-national trends in pro- and anti-social behavior.

Link to study

Why might this be the case? Churches don't generally advocate criminal behavior.

One possible answer might be found in the apocalyptic Christian attitude that we don't need to take care of the planet because the Rapture is coming soon. Religious faith allows people to care less about environment than they would absent a belief in God.

Maybe this idea bleeds over into taking care of other people. If a person steals from or even kills another person, the belief that everything will be made right in heaven might make the act more palatable.

I would be interested in other people's thoughts about what might produce this effect.

http://www.theofrak.com/2012/06/beli...ore-crime.html

MattusMaximus · 21st June 2012, 10:43 PM

Believe it or not, I actually met a guy once who told me that "because I've been saved by Jesus, it doesn't matter what I do from now on. I'm getting into Heaven regardless."

I then asked him if he'd still get into Heaven if he turned into a mass murderer, and he said yes.

I kid you not. It scared me, because I could tell he was serious... Spooky. It's the closest thing to a form of religious nihilism that I've seen.

Granted, my story is anecdotal, but it seems like this guy would have been a perfect candidate for the kind of people in that study you reference.

GrandMasterFox · 22nd June 2012, 12:29 AM

Think of it this way, if this isn't the only life you have, and you are sure that you are "doing what's right" - What earthly punishment could possibly deter you?

It doesn't matter if I send you to a 10000000 years in prison. You'll eventually die and get to the good place.

Hence why hell could be a deterrent, but heaven can't.

Theofrak · 22nd June 2012, 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by MattusMaximus

Believe it or not, I actually met a guy once who told me that "because I've been saved by Jesus, it doesn't matter what I do from now on. I'm getting into Heaven regardless."

I then asked him if he'd still get into Heaven if he turned into a mass murderer, and he said yes.

I kid you not. It scared me, because I could tell he was serious... Spooky. It's the closest thing to a form of religious nihilism that I've seen.

Granted, my story is anecdotal, but it seems like this guy would have been a perfect candidate for the kind of people in that study you reference.

That is a actually tenant of some evangelical churches. I met many of them when I was a missionary for the LDS church. Once you are saved by grace, you CANNOT sin, which is different from you WILL NOT sin.

shemp · 23rd June 2012, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by Theofrak

That is a actually tenant of some evangelical churches.

[nitpick]How much per square foot do these churches charge?

I believe the word you are looking for is "tenet".[/nitpick]

Marduk · 23rd June 2012, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Theofrak

That is a actually tenant of some evangelical churches. I met many of them when I was a missionary for the LDS church. .

would the "tenants" of these churches you were meeting, be "the priests"

DC · 23rd June 2012, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by MattusMaximus

Believe it or not, I actually met a guy once who told me that "because I've been saved by Jesus, it doesn't matter what I do from now on. I'm getting into Heaven regardless."

I then asked him if he'd still get into Heaven if he turned into a mass murderer, and he said yes.

I kid you not. It scared me, because I could tell he was serious... Spooky. It's the closest thing to a form of religious nihilism that I've seen.

Granted, my story is anecdotal, but it seems like this guy would have been a perfect candidate for the kind of people in that study you reference.

yeah what a great guide for moral values

MG1962 · 23rd June 2012, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by Theofrak

One possible answer might be found in the apocalyptic Christian attitude that we don't need to take care of the planet because the Rapture is coming soon. Religious faith allows people to care less about environment than they would absent a belief in God.

And how many of the 2 billion self identify Christians on this planet hold that view?

Marduk · 23rd June 2012, 07:58 AM

Heaven must be full of last minute repenting criminals by now
I remember when it were all fields

Craig4 · 23rd June 2012, 08:39 AM

It's the cheap and easy get out of jail free card that comes from having some nut case say (or have biographers say later) that he died for sins. There's also the whole God, who does not exist and was never wronged by you forgiving you. It's pretty easy to justify doing some pretty awful stuff when your imaginary friend can give you a clean slate.

Toontown · 23rd June 2012, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by MattusMaximus

Believe it or not, I actually met a guy once who told me that "because I've been saved by Jesus, it doesn't matter what I do from now on. I'm getting into Heaven regardless."

What a weakling. Completely incapable of controlling his primitive urges, he begs Jesus refrain from torturing him forever for being a weak zero. Jesus then dutifully promises to refrain from torturing him forever for being a weak zero. Now it's OK to be a weak zero.

Because, after all, that's how God made him.

fuelair · 23rd June 2012, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Marduk

Heaven must be full of last minute repenting criminals by now
I remember when it were all fields

Baseball fields if the film got it right.....

Marduk · 23rd June 2012, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by fuelair

Baseball fields if the film got it right.....

no, not that film
All the other ones

bpesta22 · 23rd June 2012, 07:05 PM

I see some red flags.

The correlation between a nation believing in heaven and also believing in hell has to be large, if not huge (unless I missed it, they don't report the simple correlation). That creates oddness when entering both into a regression equation predicting crime. This is confirmed by them reporting standardized betas much larger than one. Something odd is going on, and their conclusion (that belief in hell predicts less crime; belief in heaven predicts more crime) is totally unsupported by their analyses.

Are most open source articles like this?!?

bpesta22 · 23rd June 2012, 07:11 PM

Look at figure 1 and note that most Muslim countries are at 0% heaven-hell, whereas christian countries are across the board. This seems to be the clear explanation for the data, and even though they control for % Muslim, they enter it in a regression soup of control variables and so it washes out as a significant third-variable explanation for the data.

epepke · 23rd June 2012, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by MattusMaximus

Believe it or not, I actually met a guy once who told me that "because I've been saved by Jesus, it doesn't matter what I do from now on. I'm getting into Heaven regardless."

I then asked him if he'd still get into Heaven if he turned into a mass murderer, and he said yes.

That's called "antinomianism," and I've heard preachers preach it.

KevinCanada · 23rd June 2012, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by Theofrak

That is a actually tenant of some evangelical churches. I met many of them when I was a missionary for the LDS church. Once you are saved by grace, you CANNOT sin, which is different from you WILL NOT sin.

Anyone want to make a wager I can make them sin?

KevinCanada · 23rd June 2012, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by Theofrak

Why might this be the case? Churches don't generally advocate criminal behavior.
[/url]

No they don't. But they do advocate hell(fear) for a remedy towards bad behaviour. Fear no matter how you look at it does advocate bad choices which in turn produces bad behaviour.

There is a reason why J.F. Kennedy in his famous speech said "you have nothing to fear, but fear itself"

At the end of the day fear aids people to make bad decisions, and some of those bad decisions are criminal. I see it as a addiction, once hooked on alcohol and the shakes start, if you want it to stop shaking... have another drink.

Fear is the same, a good example is the Saw Movies, they use fear to trap victims into their own painful demise.

not_so_new · 24th June 2012, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by KevinCanada

There is a reason why J.F. Kennedy in his famous speech said "you have nothing to fear, but fear itself"

Kennedy said what again?

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5057/

not_so_new · 24th June 2012, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by Theofrak

One possible answer might be found in the apocalyptic Christian attitude that we don't need to take care of the planet because the Rapture is coming soon. Religious faith allows people to care less about environment than they would absent a belief in God.

Originally Posted by MG1962

And how many of the 2 billion self identify Christians on this planet hold that view?

No idea...

But I am 100% positive that view is held by more believers than nonbelievers.... Flip the question around, how many of the x million nonbelievers on this planet hold the view that the Rapture is coming soon and they let that belief define their actions?

Which is the point it appears Teofrank was making. That would be understood had you used his whole quote instead of selecting the piece you did in what appears to be a misguided effort to highlight your view that most Christians are such good stewards of the planet......

If that view is held by anyone it is pretty dangerous, and that viewpoint is much more likely to be held by Christians.

KevinCanada · 24th June 2012, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by not_so_new

Kennedy said what again?

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5057/

????? So?

not_so_new · 24th June 2012, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by KevinCanada

????? So?

Just pointing out that J.F.K. didn't say "you have nothing to fear, but fear itself", that was a famous speech by F.D.R.

dafydd · 24th June 2012, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by KevinCanada

????? So?

You had the wrong guy.

Dog Breakfast · 25th June 2012, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by Craig4

It's the cheap and easy get out of jail free card that comes from having some nut case say (or have biographers say later) that he died for sins.

Unless I'm mistaken, the nut case you are referring to never actually said he was going to die for anybody's sins. Try looking through your bible for the red sentence "I am going to save humanity from original sin by being crucified."

Catholics say that not every true teaching about Christianity is found in the Bible. Jesus saying anything about sacrificing himself for anybody is certainly included.

Aridas · 26th June 2012, 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by MattusMaximus

Believe it or not, I actually met a guy once who told me that "because I've been saved by Jesus, it doesn't matter what I do from now on. I'm getting into Heaven regardless."

I then asked him if he'd still get into Heaven if he turned into a mass murderer, and he said yes.

I kid you not. It scared me, because I could tell he was serious... Spooky. It's the closest thing to a form of religious nihilism that I've seen.

Granted, my story is anecdotal, but it seems like this guy would have been a perfect candidate for the kind of people in that study you reference.

It's an old and common "misunderstanding" of the relationship between Faith and Works, as stated in the New Testament. By "misunderstanding," of course, I mean "cherry-picking like crazy." Many Christians barely know much about or understand numerous parts of theology, much less the Bible, though.

HansMustermann · 26th June 2012, 03:32 AM

I will point out though, that while "I can be a mass murderer AFTER I got saved and still go to heaven" may be a relatively minority view, arranging the events the other way around is a tenet of the vast majority of Christian denominations.

In fact the Catholics alone account for the majority of Christians -- at least by their counting -- and the Eastern Orthodox aren't exactly a small sect either, and BOTH believe that any sin can be forgiven if you confess it to a priest. So, literally, you could be the BTK (bind-torture-kill) serial killer, and if you go and confess to a priest he can give you the "Dominus noster Jesus Christus te absolvat" (may our lord Jesus absolve you) line and that's it, you're going to heavens.

In fact, by the Catholic doctrine, the most grievous sins -- and for that the ONLY ones that absolutely need a priest to get you off the hook, because Jesus went emo and ain't talking to you no mo' -- are all thought crimes. Actually raping or killing someone, if it's done in a dispassionate and business like way, or better yet, while contemplating the God's justice or the beauty of God's creation (He sure put a fine set of tits on that girl being raped

) are NOT deadly sins. Wanting revenge or looking at that girl with lust, however ARE. Taking any pride in your good work or achievements, or crediting your hard work and skill for those achievements, is even worst, and is the most grievous of all deadly sins, the deadly sin of Pride. So better don't get all proud of how you murdered someone, either. Just saying

But the first logical implication is that if those are the worst possible sins, much worse than the actual act of slitting someone's throat, and you CAN be easily forgiven for those... then there's no reason to believe that slitting someone's throat would be unforgivable either.

The second, for the really advanced, is that actually only the thought crime part is what actually requires a priest to be forgiven. So, you know, even if you killed someone out of anger or raped them out of lust, you don't really have to confess the part about actually killing or raping them, or both. The only part that God absolutely needs a priest to put in a good word for you, is how you were really angry at that guy or really fancied that girl, right before, you know, the awful thing happened to them. For the actual act, you can have a chat with Jesus yourself afterwards and tell him you're really, really sorry.

KevinCanada · 27th June 2012, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by not_so_new

Just pointing out that J.F.K. didn't say "you have nothing to fear, but fear itself", that was a famous speech by F.D.R.

Sorry thanks, it was really late when I wrote that

dropzone · 4th July 2012, 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

So, literally, you could be the BTK (bind-torture-kill) serial killer, and if you go and confess to a priest he can give you the "Dominus noster Jesus Christus te absolvat" (may our lord Jesus absolve you) line and that's it, you're going to heavens.

No, Dennis Rader is a Lutheran and would need to run through the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults to receive the sacraments. Should only take about a year. The good news is that his Lutheran Baptism counts, so that will speed the process some. But there is still that little matter of Justification by Faith vs Justification by Works to get around, and Rader's works weren't very justifying.

Big change from my youth, when all us kids, even GIRLS, got trained in administering Extreme Unction if no priest was available, including performing Baptism, hearing Confession, and serving the Eucharist if a consecrated host was available. There was a kit hidden in the crucifix in our front hall. With a host. First class all the way in the zone house.

21st June 2012, 09:57 PM	#1
Theofrak Scholar Join Date: May 2012 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 77	Belief in heaven linked to more crime according to study Evidently, the carrot is not better than the stick. According to a recent study from the Department of Psychology of the University of Oregon, belief in heaven may actually be counterproductive when it comes to influencing prosocial behavior. Quote: Though religion has been shown to have generally positive effects on normative ‘prosocial’ behavior, recent laboratory research suggests that these effects may be driven primarily by supernatural punishment. Supernatural benevolence, on the other hand, may actually be associated with less prosocial behavior. Here, we investigate these effects at the societal level, showing that the proportion of people who believe in hell negatively predicts national crime rates whereas belief in heaven predicts higher crime rates. These effects remain after accounting for a host of covariates, and ultimately prove stronger predictors of national crime rates than economic variables such as GDP and income inequality. Expanding on laboratory research on religious prosociality, this is the first study to tie religious beliefs to large-scale cross-national trends in pro- and anti-social behavior. Link to study Why might this be the case? Churches don't generally advocate criminal behavior. One possible answer might be found in the apocalyptic Christian attitude that we don't need to take care of the planet because the Rapture is coming soon. Religious faith allows people to care less about environment than they would absent a belief in God. Maybe this idea bleeds over into taking care of other people. If a person steals from or even kills another person, the belief that everything will be made right in heaven might make the act more palatable. I would be interested in other people's thoughts about what might produce this effect. http://www.theofrak.com/2012/06/beli...ore-crime.html
	__________________ www.Theofrak.com - because traditional religion is so frakked up

21st June 2012, 10:43 PM	#2
MattusMaximus Intellectual Gladiator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe Posts: 14,182	Believe it or not, I actually met a guy once who told me that "because I've been saved by Jesus, it doesn't matter what I do from now on. I'm getting into Heaven regardless." I then asked him if he'd still get into Heaven if he turned into a mass murderer, and he said yes. I kid you not. It scared me, because I could tell he was serious... Spooky. It's the closest thing to a form of religious nihilism that I've seen. Granted, my story is anecdotal, but it seems like this guy would have been a perfect candidate for the kind of people in that study you reference.
	__________________ Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher The Times They Are A-Changin'

22nd June 2012, 11:26 PM	#4
Theofrak Scholar Join Date: May 2012 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 77	Originally Posted by MattusMaximus Believe it or not, I actually met a guy once who told me that "because I've been saved by Jesus, it doesn't matter what I do from now on. I'm getting into Heaven regardless." I then asked him if he'd still get into Heaven if he turned into a mass murderer, and he said yes. I kid you not. It scared me, because I could tell he was serious... Spooky. It's the closest thing to a form of religious nihilism that I've seen. Granted, my story is anecdotal, but it seems like this guy would have been a perfect candidate for the kind of people in that study you reference. That is a actually tenant of some evangelical churches. I met many of them when I was a missionary for the LDS church. Once you are saved by grace, you CANNOT sin, which is different from you WILL NOT sin.
	__________________ www.Theofrak.com - because traditional religion is so frakked up

23rd June 2012, 07:52 AM	#5
shemp Timothy, Timothy, where on earth did you go? Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: trapped in a cave-in with Joe Posts: 12,896	Originally Posted by Theofrak That is a actually tenant of some evangelical churches. [nitpick]How much per square foot do these churches charge? I believe the word you are looking for is "tenet".[/nitpick]
	__________________ Church on Sunday, sleep and nod Tryin' to duck the wrath of God Preacher's fillin' us with fright Tryin' to tell us what he thinks is right He really got to be some kind of nut (I can't use it!) Tryin' to make it real - compared to what? Last edited by shemp; 23rd June 2012 at 07:53 AM.

23rd June 2012, 07:56 AM	#7
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,675	Originally Posted by MattusMaximus Believe it or not, I actually met a guy once who told me that "because I've been saved by Jesus, it doesn't matter what I do from now on. I'm getting into Heaven regardless." I then asked him if he'd still get into Heaven if he turned into a mass murderer, and he said yes. I kid you not. It scared me, because I could tell he was serious... Spooky. It's the closest thing to a form of religious nihilism that I've seen. Granted, my story is anecdotal, but it seems like this guy would have been a perfect candidate for the kind of people in that study you reference. yeah what a great guide for moral values
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

22nd June 2012, 12:29 AM	#3
GrandMasterFox Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,315	Think of it this way, if this isn't the only life you have, and you are sure that you are "doing what's right" - What earthly punishment could possibly deter you? It doesn't matter if I send you to a 10000000 years in prison. You'll eventually die and get to the good place. Hence why hell could be a deterrent, but heaven can't.

23rd June 2012, 07:55 AM	#6
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by Theofrak That is a actually tenant of some evangelical churches. I met many of them when I was a missionary for the LDS church. . would the "tenants" of these churches you were meeting, be "the priests"

23rd June 2012, 07:57 AM	#8
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by Theofrak One possible answer might be found in the apocalyptic Christian attitude that we don't need to take care of the planet because the Rapture is coming soon. Religious faith allows people to care less about environment than they would absent a belief in God. And how many of the 2 billion self identify Christians on this planet hold that view?

23rd June 2012, 07:58 AM	#9
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Heaven must be full of last minute repenting criminals by now I remember when it were all fields

23rd June 2012, 08:39 AM	#10
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363	It's the cheap and easy get out of jail free card that comes from having some nut case say (or have biographers say later) that he died for sins. There's also the whole God, who does not exist and was never wronged by you forgiving you. It's pretty easy to justify doing some pretty awful stuff when your imaginary friend can give you a clean slate.
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363

23rd June 2012, 04:43 PM	#11
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,558	Originally Posted by MattusMaximus Believe it or not, I actually met a guy once who told me that "because I've been saved by Jesus, it doesn't matter what I do from now on. I'm getting into Heaven regardless." What a weakling. Completely incapable of controlling his primitive urges, he begs Jesus refrain from torturing him forever for being a weak zero. Jesus then dutifully promises to refrain from torturing him forever for being a weak zero. Now it's OK to be a weak zero. Because, after all, that's how God made him.
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,558	__________________ SEARCH NOW THE SPHERES PROBE THE UNIVERSE SEND BACK WORD WHAT FORCE SO IRRESISTIBLE AS THE WILL OF FREE MEN

23rd June 2012, 04:57 PM	#12
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961	Originally Posted by Marduk Heaven must be full of last minute repenting criminals by now I remember when it were all fields Baseball fields if the film got it right.....
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

23rd June 2012, 05:49 PM	#13
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by fuelair Baseball fields if the film got it right..... no, not that film All the other ones

23rd June 2012, 07:05 PM	#14
bpesta22 Cereal Killer Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 4,648	I see some red flags. The correlation between a nation believing in heaven and also believing in hell has to be large, if not huge (unless I missed it, they don't report the simple correlation). That creates oddness when entering both into a regression equation predicting crime. This is confirmed by them reporting standardized betas much larger than one. Something odd is going on, and their conclusion (that belief in hell predicts less crime; belief in heaven predicts more crime) is totally unsupported by their analyses. Are most open source articles like this?!?
bpesta22 Cereal Killer Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 4,648	__________________ Manifest thy bosoms or decamp.

23rd June 2012, 07:11 PM	#15
bpesta22 Cereal Killer Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 4,648	Look at figure 1 and note that most Muslim countries are at 0% heaven-hell, whereas christian countries are across the board. This seems to be the clear explanation for the data, and even though they control for % Muslim, they enter it in a regression soup of control variables and so it washes out as a significant third-variable explanation for the data.
bpesta22 Cereal Killer Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 4,648	__________________ Manifest thy bosoms or decamp.

23rd June 2012, 08:03 PM	#16
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	Originally Posted by MattusMaximus Believe it or not, I actually met a guy once who told me that "because I've been saved by Jesus, it doesn't matter what I do from now on. I'm getting into Heaven regardless." I then asked him if he'd still get into Heaven if he turned into a mass murderer, and he said yes. That's called "antinomianism," and I've heard preachers preach it.
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	__________________ "It probably came from a sticky dark planet far, far away." - Godzilla versus Hedora "There's no evidence that the 9-11 attacks (whoever did them) were deliberately attacking civilians. On the contrary the targets appear to have been chosen as military." -DavidByron

23rd June 2012, 11:12 PM	#17
KevinCanada Thinker Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 183	Originally Posted by Theofrak That is a actually tenant of some evangelical churches. I met many of them when I was a missionary for the LDS church. Once you are saved by grace, you CANNOT sin, which is different from you WILL NOT sin. Anyone want to make a wager I can make them sin?
KevinCanada Thinker Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 183

23rd June 2012, 11:24 PM	#18
KevinCanada Thinker Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 183	Originally Posted by Theofrak Why might this be the case? Churches don't generally advocate criminal behavior. [/url] No they don't. But they do advocate hell(fear) for a remedy towards bad behaviour. Fear no matter how you look at it does advocate bad choices which in turn produces bad behaviour. There is a reason why J.F. Kennedy in his famous speech said "you have nothing to fear, but fear itself" At the end of the day fear aids people to make bad decisions, and some of those bad decisions are criminal. I see it as a addiction, once hooked on alcohol and the shakes start, if you want it to stop shaking... have another drink. Fear is the same, a good example is the Saw Movies, they use fear to trap victims into their own painful demise.
KevinCanada Thinker Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 183

24th June 2012, 07:23 AM	#19
not_so_new Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,544	Originally Posted by KevinCanada There is a reason why J.F. Kennedy in his famous speech said "you have nothing to fear, but fear itself" Kennedy said what again? http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5057/

24th June 2012, 07:39 AM	#20
not_so_new Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,544	Originally Posted by Theofrak One possible answer might be found in the apocalyptic Christian attitude that we don't need to take care of the planet because the Rapture is coming soon. Religious faith allows people to care less about environment than they would absent a belief in God. Originally Posted by MG1962 And how many of the 2 billion self identify Christians on this planet hold that view? No idea... But I am 100% positive that view is held by more believers than nonbelievers.... Flip the question around, how many of the x million nonbelievers on this planet hold the view that the Rapture is coming soon and they let that belief define their actions? Which is the point it appears Teofrank was making. That would be understood had you used his whole quote instead of selecting the piece you did in what appears to be a misguided effort to highlight your view that most Christians are such good stewards of the planet...... If that view is held by anyone it is pretty dangerous, and that viewpoint is much more likely to be held by Christians.
	Last edited by not_so_new; 24th June 2012 at 07:40 AM.

24th June 2012, 09:24 AM	#21
KevinCanada Thinker Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 183	Originally Posted by not_so_new Kennedy said what again? http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5057/ ????? So?
KevinCanada Thinker Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 183

24th June 2012, 11:36 AM	#22
not_so_new Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,544	Originally Posted by KevinCanada ????? So? Just pointing out that J.F.K. didn't say "you have nothing to fear, but fear itself", that was a famous speech by F.D.R.

24th June 2012, 11:39 AM	#23
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,481	Originally Posted by KevinCanada ????? So? You had the wrong guy.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

25th June 2012, 10:08 PM	#24
Dog Breakfast Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2012 Location: Why not? Posts: 352	Originally Posted by Craig4 It's the cheap and easy get out of jail free card that comes from having some nut case say (or have biographers say later) that he died for sins. Unless I'm mistaken, the nut case you are referring to never actually said he was going to die for anybody's sins. Try looking through your bible for the red sentence "I am going to save humanity from original sin by being crucified." Catholics say that not every true teaching about Christianity is found in the Bible. Jesus saying anything about sacrificing himself for anybody is certainly included.
	__________________ Personal weblog, both green and black.

26th June 2012, 12:18 AM	#25
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,108	Originally Posted by MattusMaximus Believe it or not, I actually met a guy once who told me that "because I've been saved by Jesus, it doesn't matter what I do from now on. I'm getting into Heaven regardless." I then asked him if he'd still get into Heaven if he turned into a mass murderer, and he said yes. I kid you not. It scared me, because I could tell he was serious... Spooky. It's the closest thing to a form of religious nihilism that I've seen. Granted, my story is anecdotal, but it seems like this guy would have been a perfect candidate for the kind of people in that study you reference. It's an old and common "misunderstanding" of the relationship between Faith and Works, as stated in the New Testament. By "misunderstanding," of course, I mean "cherry-picking like crazy." Many Christians barely know much about or understand numerous parts of theology, much less the Bible, though.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

26th June 2012, 03:32 AM	#26
HansMustermann Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 9,851	I will point out though, that while "I can be a mass murderer AFTER I got saved and still go to heaven" may be a relatively minority view, arranging the events the other way around is a tenet of the vast majority of Christian denominations. In fact the Catholics alone account for the majority of Christians -- at least by their counting -- and the Eastern Orthodox aren't exactly a small sect either, and BOTH believe that any sin can be forgiven if you confess it to a priest. So, literally, you could be the BTK (bind-torture-kill) serial killer, and if you go and confess to a priest he can give you the "Dominus noster Jesus Christus te absolvat" (may our lord Jesus absolve you) line and that's it, you're going to heavens. In fact, by the Catholic doctrine, the most grievous sins -- and for that the ONLY ones that absolutely need a priest to get you off the hook, because Jesus went emo and ain't talking to you no mo' -- are all thought crimes. Actually raping or killing someone, if it's done in a dispassionate and business like way, or better yet, while contemplating the God's justice or the beauty of God's creation (He sure put a fine set of tits on that girl being raped) are NOT deadly sins. Wanting revenge or looking at that girl with lust, however ARE. Taking any pride in your good work or achievements, or crediting your hard work and skill for those achievements, is even worst, and is the most grievous of all deadly sins, the deadly sin of Pride. So better don't get all proud of how you murdered someone, either. Just saying But the first logical implication is that if those are the worst possible sins, much worse than the actual act of slitting someone's throat, and you CAN be easily forgiven for those... then there's no reason to believe that slitting someone's throat would be unforgivable either. The second, for the really advanced, is that actually only the thought crime part is what actually requires a priest to be forgiven. So, you know, even if you killed someone out of anger or raped them out of lust, you don't really have to confess the part about actually killing or raping them, or both. The only part that God absolutely needs a priest to put in a good word for you, is how you were really angry at that guy or really fancied that girl, right before, you know, the awful thing happened to them. For the actual act, you can have a chat with Jesus yourself afterwards and tell him you're really, really sorry.

27th June 2012, 09:12 AM	#27
KevinCanada Thinker Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 183	Originally Posted by not_so_new Just pointing out that J.F.K. didn't say "you have nothing to fear, but fear itself", that was a famous speech by F.D.R. Sorry thanks, it was really late when I wrote that
KevinCanada Thinker Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 183

4th July 2012, 09:22 PM	#28
dropzone Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,666	Originally Posted by HansMustermann So, literally, you could be the BTK (bind-torture-kill) serial killer, and if you go and confess to a priest he can give you the "Dominus noster Jesus Christus te absolvat" (may our lord Jesus absolve you) line and that's it, you're going to heavens. No, Dennis Rader is a Lutheran and would need to run through the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults to receive the sacraments. Should only take about a year. The good news is that his Lutheran Baptism counts, so that will speed the process some. But there is still that little matter of Justification by Faith vs Justification by Works to get around, and Rader's works weren't very justifying. Big change from my youth, when all us kids, even GIRLS, got trained in administering Extreme Unction if no priest was available, including performing Baptism, hearing Confession, and serving the Eucharist if a consecrated host was available. There was a kit hidden in the crucifix in our front hall. With a host. First class all the way in the zone house.