Bible proof

[terryjautry]

I would like to say that over the years people have found some pretty weird and crazy things that would attempt to show the history of our planet. Ancient aliens, and a lot of weird things that no one can ever explain that have been seen around the world. Some would even go far as to say aliens were worshipped back then and they probably were by other cultures. No wonder those ancient cultures were so smart and so advanced.

But here is where I like to intervene with my faith and salvation.

I like to find it strange that the hebrew culture and people are one of the youngest of those ancient civilizations. There were civilizations before them, since Abraham was the first Hebrew. Another thing I find odd is that I have never been able to find out or research to where Hebrews worshipped aliens or built strange pyramids or made strange markings in caves based on ancient aliens or visitors like other cultures did. Oh yes, the egyptians and other ancient cultures were into some pretty demonic alien stuff and so smart and advanced. hebrews never stepped foot into that realm. I also like to find it odd that Egyptians say that there was not ever any proof of hebrews in Egypt. I think that's because every king that suffered a great defeat in Egypt had all of his history of what he did or records of him doing things destoryed probably and everything started over with new records probably. But there is proof outside the bible, a glimmer of proof but it's there.

Also I like to find it odd that hebrews were the only nomadic group and that explains why they probably never built strange temples and alien buildings, etc. and that explains why aliens never messed with them, probably because they were scared of God.

I also find it odd that a religious group at the time would write negative things about them that they did in the OT. yes, they did terrible things in the OT books. so why write about it and make yourselves look bad like that?

in the OT God said one day he would have another people under his covenant...Hence the people worshipping God today.

prophets of the OT mentioned things of salvation and it is being manifsted today. Millions around the world worship and believe in God. Just like it was mentioned would happen in the OT.

The hebrews were the only group not to ever intentionally mess with anyone. Their history is so strange but great and no one can take that away from them.

Alot will say that they stole stories from other cultures to put into the bible.

WRONG...

For instance, they say that the story of Moses is a copy I think of some guy named Sargon. or Argon, I can't remember his name. but this sargon or argon character's story and history holds no water. The dates and times of his history is so condradicting that it's a shame.

The story of the flood some will say was stolen from the Gilgamesh epics. I find it odd that even a name from that story I think is a name that is mentioned in the Bible, and plus, it can be proven that the books of Moses predates the Gilgamesh writings which were discovered in a cave some time ago.

Let's just face it. All of what I mentioned and then some is enough for me and my faith.

No one can even explain this stuff about the Jews and the Bible and how it puts them down so many times, and how God's plan stretches out to the whole universe. No other religion can even be said to do those things.

Wow amazing. I love it.

[Twiler]

None of those things are proof.

[psionl0]

Are you saying that the bible has been proven to be true because there are doubts about alternative explanations?

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Twiler

None of those things are proof.

Very few of them are even true.

[Xero]

I'm still waiting for proof, instead of claims and doubts.

[BowlOfRed]

I saw the title and was thinking it was going to be about a vest.

[pakeha]

Welcome to the forum, terryjautry!
I found your OP very interesting and thought-provoking.
You mentioned:

Quote:

The hebrews were the only group not to ever intentionally mess with anyone.

Are you quite sure of that?

[Astreja]

Originally Posted by terryjautry

I would like to say that over the years people have found some pretty weird and crazy things that would attempt to show the history of our planet.

Including Talking Snakes™. Got one you can spare? I've been asking True Believers worldwide if they could procure one for Me, but they seem to be back-ordered.

Quote:

Oh yes, the egyptians and other ancient cultures were into some pretty demonic alien stuff and so smart and advanced.

"Demonic aliens"? I'll have you know, sirrah, that My ancestors from the M42 nebula were 100% natural extraterrestrials, with 0% supernatural bogeyman content.

Quote:

Also I like to find it odd that hebrews were the only nomadic group...

Since when?

Quote:

I also find it odd that a religious group at the time would write negative things about them that they did in the OT. yes, they did terrible things in the OT books. so why write about it and make yourselves look bad like that?

To scare the living excrement out of anyone who would think of leaving the fold, naturellement.

Quote:

The hebrews were the only group not to ever intentionally mess with anyone.

'Anyone' not including the Amalekites or the inhabitants of Jericho... Unless you're suggesting that the Biblical Israelites accidentally razed villages and slaughtered their inhabitants, that is.

Quote:

The story of the flood some will say was stolen from the Gilgamesh epics. I find it odd that even a name from that story I think is a name that is mentioned in the Bible, and plus, it can be proven that the books of Moses predates the Gilgamesh writings which were discovered in a cave some time ago.

Sorry, no. The Enûma Eliš is usually dated to 1100 BCE and may be even older than that. The book of Genesis apparently was not written till about 500-600 BCE. Atrahasis predates Noah by at least 500 years. (I also think it rather likely that the "Elohim" referenced at the beginning of the book of Genesis were actually the Canaanite pantheon led by the god El.)

Quote:

Let's just face it. All of what I mentioned and then some is enough for me and my faith.

It may be enough for you, but for Me it is so very primitive and laughable that I feel that I am in very little danger of coming to believe the things that you believe.

[MG1962]

Originally Posted by terryjautry

The story of the flood some will say was stolen from the Gilgamesh epics. I find it odd that even a name from that story I think is a name that is mentioned in the Bible, and plus, it can be proven that the books of Moses predates the Gilgamesh writings which were discovered in a cave some time ago.

I would be definitely interested in hearing more about this

[Captain_Swoop]

Poe?

[Wolfman]

Originally Posted by terryjautry

I like to find it strange that the hebrew culture and people are one of the youngest of those ancient civilizations. There were civilizations before them, since Abraham was the first Hebrew.

Not really true. Yeah, the Hebrews started with Abraham, but he didn't spring out of nothing; he was in fact a product of the cultures of the time, and the Hebrews that arose out of his lineage built on the thousands of years of history/culture that preceded them.

But if you wanna' ignore that stuff entirely, and pretend that it was something brand new, go ahead...that'll still be less irrational than some of your other claims.

Quote:

Another thing I find odd is that I have never been able to find out or research to where Hebrews worshipped aliens or built strange pyramids or made strange markings in caves based on ancient aliens or visitors like other cultures did.

Nobody's been able to "find out" where any other cultures worshiped aliens, either! All they've done is taken indistinct drawings, and tried to retroactively shoehorn extraterrestrial meanings that were never intended in the first place.

Quote:

Oh yes, the egyptians and other ancient cultures were into some pretty demonic alien stuff and so smart and advanced.

Sorry...would you care to clarify what exactly this "demonic alien stuff" was? And are we talking here about demons? About aliens? About aliens who work for demons (or vice versa)? I mean, dude...you're really heading off into lala land here.

Quote:

hebrews never stepped foot into that realm.

Really? Well, they certainly got into worshiping the gods of the other countries around them, including Baal (you might wanna' try actually reading your Bible, and checking out just how many times the Hebrews were supposedly punished by god for worshiping other gods.

And the "no aliens" thing? Well, if we're going to go into the realm of speculative/delusional thinking, quite a few of the aliens-in-ancient-cultures people have claimed that Ezekiel's vision of "wheels within wheels" was actually a description of an alien space ship; and that the burning bush and the fiery god on top of the mountain that Moses talked to were both manifestations of alien technology.

I can't wait to hear how ludicrous interpretations of non-Hebrew writing and artwork as being alien are "right", but equally ludicrous interpretations of the Bible are "wrong".

Quote:

I also like to find it odd that Egyptians say that there was not ever any proof of hebrews in Egypt. I think that's because every king that suffered a great defeat in Egypt had all of his history of what he did or records of him doing things destoryed probably and everything started over with new records probably.

Or...and here's a wild thought...the Hebrews were so small in number and unimportant that the Egyptians simply didn't write much about them, or lumped them in with other slaves.

Of course, "I think..." is equal to convincing proof, and needs nothing more than your own assertion, devoid of anything else, for us to accept it as fact. And no, a great many disasters and defeats are actually preserved in the Egyptian records, rendering your argument pretty much absurd.

Quote:

But there is proof outside the bible, a glimmer of proof but it's there.

A) Then what exactly is this proof...do you mean vague, unsubstantiated claims about what you think happened?

B) If we prove that the Hebrews were in Egypt...so what? Nobody disputes the existence of the Hebrews. Proving that the Hebrews were in Egypt does not prove anything in regards to Biblical claims about the Exodus, or -- even more ridiculously -- their interactions (or lack thereof) with aliens.

Quote:

Also I like to find it odd that hebrews were the only nomadic group and that explains why they probably never built strange temples and alien buildings, etc.

"Hebrews were the only nomadic group". Really? And your source for this claim is...what? Actually, at that period in history, a great many groups were nomadic, particularly those who pursued pastoral livelihoods that were dependent on the seasons, and moving their livestock around to wherever food was available.

"probably never build strange temples" -- if one excludes the Tabernacle, of course.

"and alien buildings" -- ummm...just who did build "alien buildings"? And what is your proof that they were alien?

Quote:

and that explains why aliens never messed with them, probably because they were scared of God.

Or -- and I'm gonna' go out on a limb here -- aliens never messed with them because there were no frickin' aliens!

Whoah! Mind blown!

That also explains why fairies didn't mess with the Hebrews...because there were no fairies, either! In fact, this explains why all sorts of mythological entities/creatures never messed with the Hebrews! Cyclops, Pegasus, Gorgon, etc.

Quote:

I also find it odd that a religious group at the time would write negative things about them that they did in the OT. yes, they did terrible things in the OT books. so why write about it and make yourselves look bad like that?

Ummmm...for two reasons.

1) Because many of the things that we think are "bad" (ie. slavery, deliberate genocide, etc.) were considered "good" by them. In fact, their god commanded them to do such things

2) Because the Bible is chock-full of rules intended to make everyone afraid of disobeying god...so every time they do something "bad", they are also punished for it...serving as a lesson to others not to do the same bad things. Not only is this not unusual or in any way remarkable, but it is a trademark of almost every single religious text ever written in the history of mankind.

But don't let that stop you from thinking it's somehow unique.

Quote:

in the OT God said one day he would have another people under his covenant...Hence the people worshipping God today.

So by the same logic, the fact that there are huge numbers of people following Buddhism, Hinduism, and Islam today would indicate something special/valid about those religions, too? Or is this another one of those "special case" arguments, where it proves something about your religion, but is not valid if applied to any other religion?

Quote:

prophets of the OT mentioned things of salvation and it is being manifsted today. Millions around the world worship and believe in God. Just like it was mentioned would happen in the OT.

Curiously enough, the OT never mentions either Heaven or Hell; nor does it mention resurrection.

Another curiosity -- numerous Hindu and Buddhist leaders likewise predicted that their religion would grow and spread...and look, they were right, too!

Quote:

The hebrews were the only group not to ever intentionally mess with anyone.

Excuse me?!?! The Hebrews initiated numerous conflicts, as well as engaging in some of the worst genocidal activities of any culture at that time! Try reading your OT a little more closely, where they have captured women and children after defeating their enemy -- and then set about murdering every male, and every non-virgin female, in cold blood. Only virgin females were kept alive, at god's order, to "be their servants".

There is no enemy of Israel that behaved towards the Hebrews in as barbaric or brutal a manner as they acted towards their enemies. "Never intentionally messed with anyone"?!??! You're either dreadfully ignorant of the OT, or dreadfully delusional (given your claims regarding aliens, I'd tend towards the latter).

Quote:

Their history is so strange but great and no one can take that away from them.

Except for the fact that the vast majority of it -- talking snakes, talking donkeys, flaming bushes, parting waters, suns that stop moving for 24 hours, etc. -- is complete and utter bull feces. Little bits of history, intermixed with huge doses of fantasy.

Just like every other culture at that time.

Quote:

Alot will say that they stole stories from other cultures to put into the bible.

WRONG...

For instance, they say that the story of Moses is a copy I think of some guy named Sargon. or Argon, I can't remember his name. but this sargon or argon character's story and history holds no water. The dates and times of his history is so condradicting that it's a shame.

The story of Sargon is taken from Babylonian texts that predate the period during which Moses was supposed to have lived. This is an absolute fact. So perhaps you could tell us how "the dates and times of his history are so contradicting"? Simple, verifiable fact -- this story existed, and it existed prior to Moses. This doesn't prove that the story of Moses is based on Sargon...but it does demonstrate that your point (like pretty much every other point you've raised) is nonsense.

Quote:

The story of the flood some will say was stolen from the Gilgamesh epics. I find it odd that even a name from that story I think is a name that is mentioned in the Bible, and plus, it can be proven that the books of Moses predates the Gilgamesh writings which were discovered in a cave some time ago.

Some cuneiform versions of the Gilgamesh Epic have been dated to 2000 B.C. or earlier. And that's just the written versions.

The story of Noah, by contrast, was written by Moses (as were all the stories in the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible...at least, according to Christians); and Moses, if he ever lived, was born around 1300 years B.C. (since this is the period during which the Egyptian leaders he refers to lived). That means that the Gilgamesh Epic is at least 700 years older than the earliest written records of the story of Noah.

But again...don't let an insignificant thing like facts get in the way of your musings.

Quote:

Let's just face it. All of what I mentioned and then some is enough for me and my faith.

Let's just face it. You've already decided what the "truth" is, and you've simply created a fantasy world in which that "truth" fits. Any facts that contradict you will be discounted; any inconsistencies in your beliefs will be ignored.

Quote:

No one can even explain this stuff about the Jews and the Bible and how it puts them down so many times, and how God's plan stretches out to the whole universe. No other religion can even be said to do those things.

Wow amazing. I love it.

I agree that "no other religion can be said to do those things". Nor can Judaism, or Christianity. The "facts" you've cited above are the combined result of ignorance and a rather warped imagination...otherwise known as "religious faith".

[H3LL]

Originally Posted by terryjautry

Let's just face it. All of what I mentioned and then some is enough for me and my faith.

terryjautry, with such low, low, low standards for evidence and a capacity to believe almost anything......

.....my advice, keep away from used car showrooms and Nigerian Princes.

Meanwhile, learn some history, even history of the Bibble if you must, before talking about it.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by MG1962

I would be definitely interested in hearing more about this

I would take the phrase ''it can be proven'' with a large pinch of salt.

[Croydon Bob]

Originally Posted by terryjautry

I would like to say

I like to find it strange

I also like to find it odd

Also I like to find it odd

I also find it odd

I would like to find it weird that you got so much wrong in such a short post.

[Foster Zygote]

Something smells of Poe.

[Multivac]

Welcome to the forum terryjautry.

I'm glad that you find the bible is enough for your faith, but would you like to offer some prrof for your claims that the bible is true? How about starting with proof that the books of Moses were written before the Gilgamesh story.

[welshdean]

Originally Posted by terryjautry

I would like to say that over the years people have found some pretty weird and crazy things that would attempt to show the history of our planet. Ancient aliens, and a lot of weird things that no one can ever explain that have been seen around the world. Some would even go far as to say aliens were worshipped back then and they probably were by other cultures. No wonder those ancient cultures were so smart and so advanced.

But here is where I like to intervene with my faith and salvation.

I like to find it strange that the hebrew culture and people are one of the youngest of those ancient civilizations. There were civilizations before them, since Abraham was the first Hebrew. Another thing I find odd is that I have never been able to find out or research to where Hebrews worshipped aliens or built strange pyramids or made strange markings in caves based on ancient aliens or visitors like other cultures did. Oh yes, the egyptians and other ancient cultures were into some pretty demonic alien stuff and so smart and advanced. hebrews never stepped foot into that realm. I also like to find it odd that Egyptians say that there was not ever any proof of hebrews in Egypt. I think that's because every king that suffered a great defeat in Egypt had all of his history of what he did or records of him doing things destoryed probably and everything started over with new records probably. But there is proof outside the bible, a glimmer of proof but it's there.

Also I like to find it odd that hebrews were the only nomadic group and that explains why they probably never built strange temples and alien buildings, etc. and that explains why aliens never messed with them, probably because they were scared of God.

I also find it odd that a religious group at the time would write negative things about them that they did in the OT. yes, they did terrible things in the OT books. so why write about it and make yourselves look bad like that?

in the OT God said one day he would have another people under his covenant...Hence the people worshipping God today.

prophets of the OT mentioned things of salvation and it is being manifsted today. Millions around the world worship and believe in God. Just like it was mentioned would happen in the OT.

The hebrews were the only group not to ever intentionally mess with anyone. Their history is so strange but great and no one can take that away from them.

Alot will say that they stole stories from other cultures to put into the bible.

WRONG...

For instance, they say that the story of Moses is a copy I think of some guy named Sargon. or Argon, I can't remember his name. but this sargon or argon character's story and history holds no water. The dates and times of his history is so condradicting that it's a shame.

The story of the flood some will say was stolen from the Gilgamesh epics. I find it odd that even a name from that story I think is a name that is mentioned in the Bible, and plus, it can be proven that the books of Moses predates the Gilgamesh writings which were discovered in a cave some time ago.

Let's just face it. All of what I mentioned and then some is enough for me and my faith.

No one can even explain this stuff about the Jews and the Bible and how it puts them down so many times, and how God's plan stretches out to the whole universe. No other religion can even be said to do those things.

Wow amazing. I love it.

Nice one terry, pure comedy gold.

You are aware that nothing in your post can be constituted as true, never mind proof, aren't you?



Do you know a guy called DOC perchance?

[MG1962]

Originally Posted by dafydd

I would take the phrase ''it can be proven'' with a large pinch of salt.

Perhaps - however if there is evidence of a pre-Gilgamesh flood narrative I would very much like to know about it

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Poe?

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

Something smells of Poe.

On balance, I'm inclined to agree.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

Something smells of Poe.

A very elaborate one, then.

Hans

[Resume]

Originally Posted by MG1962

Perhaps - however if there is evidence of a pre-Gilgamesh flood narrative I would very much like to know about it

I'm sure Ooog told Oggg about the crick risin'.

Then Oggg told two friends, and they told two friends and so on. Then Gilgamesh came hear tell about it.

[MG1962]

Originally Posted by Resume

I'm sure Ooog told Oggg about the crick risin'.

Then Oggg told two friends, and they told two friends and so on. Then Gilgamesh came hear tell about it.

It is generally assumed Gilgamesh had some sort of preceding oral tradition, but the OP mentions cave paintings as evidence. This is what I would like more information about.

[Resume]

Originally Posted by MG1962

It is generally assumed Gilgamesh had some sort of preceding oral tradition, but the OP mentions cave paintings as evidence. This is what I would like more information about.

I suspect you'll be disappointed by the scholarship.

[MG1962]

Originally Posted by Resume

I suspect you'll be disappointed by the scholarship.

I prefer not to have a pre-disposed opinion of evidence. The OP will either supply the information or they wont, no biggie really

[Wolfman]

Originally Posted by MG1962

I prefer not to have a pre-disposed opinion of evidence. The OP will either supply the information or they wont, no biggie really

While I agree with and applaud your attitude in principle...in this case, I'd be betting rather heavily on the latter result.

[Mister Agenda]

Welcome terryjautry! Looks like you have an interesting career here ahead of you if you continue to grace us with your presence.

It is hard to believe that such an elaborate OP can be so consistently and completely wrong unintentionally, but in any case, you provoked some very interesting responses.

[MG1962]

Originally Posted by Wolfman

While I agree with and applaud your attitude in principle...in this case, I'd be betting rather heavily on the latter result.

Sure and I would not disagree with you - this already smells like a drive by rather than a Poe. That could get an interesting spread of odds in Vegas

[Wolfman]

Originally Posted by MG1962

Sure and I would not disagree with you - this already smells like a drive by rather than a Poe. That could get an interesting spread of odds in Vegas

Yeah, concur with you completely

[Tony]

Originally Posted by terryjautry

I would like to say that over the years people have found some pretty weird and crazy things that would attempt to show the history of our planet. Ancient aliens, and a lot of weird things that no one can ever explain that have been seen around the world. Some would even go far as to say aliens were worshipped back then and they probably were by other cultures. No wonder those ancient cultures were so smart and so advanced.

But here is where I like to intervene with my faith and salvation.

I like to find it strange that the hebrew culture and people are one of the youngest of those ancient civilizations. There were civilizations before them, since Abraham was the first Hebrew. Another thing I find odd is that I have never been able to find out or research to where Hebrews worshipped aliens or built strange pyramids or made strange markings in caves based on ancient aliens or visitors like other cultures did. Oh yes, the egyptians and other ancient cultures were into some pretty demonic alien stuff and so smart and advanced. hebrews never stepped foot into that realm. I also like to find it odd that Egyptians say that there was not ever any proof of hebrews in Egypt. I think that's because every king that suffered a great defeat in Egypt had all of his history of what he did or records of him doing things destoryed probably and everything started over with new records probably. But there is proof outside the bible, a glimmer of proof but it's there.

Also I like to find it odd that hebrews were the only nomadic group and that explains why they probably never built strange temples and alien buildings, etc. and that explains why aliens never messed with them, probably because they were scared of God.

I also find it odd that a religious group at the time would write negative things about them that they did in the OT. yes, they did terrible things in the OT books. so why write about it and make yourselves look bad like that?

in the OT God said one day he would have another people under his covenant...Hence the people worshipping God today.

prophets of the OT mentioned things of salvation and it is being manifsted today. Millions around the world worship and believe in God. Just like it was mentioned would happen in the OT.

The hebrews were the only group not to ever intentionally mess with anyone. Their history is so strange but great and no one can take that away from them.

Alot will say that they stole stories from other cultures to put into the bible.

WRONG...

For instance, they say that the story of Moses is a copy I think of some guy named Sargon. or Argon, I can't remember his name. but this sargon or argon character's story and history holds no water. The dates and times of his history is so condradicting that it's a shame.

The story of the flood some will say was stolen from the Gilgamesh epics. I find it odd that even a name from that story I think is a name that is mentioned in the Bible, and plus, it can be proven that the books of Moses predates the Gilgamesh writings which were discovered in a cave some time ago.

Let's just face it. All of what I mentioned and then some is enough for me and my faith.

No one can even explain this stuff about the Jews and the Bible and how it puts them down so many times, and how God's plan stretches out to the whole universe. No other religion can even be said to do those things.

Wow amazing. I love it.

terryjautry, what you've just wrote is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent OP were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[AdMan]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Poe?

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

Something smells of Poe.

On balance, I'm inclined to agree.

It's possible, but Googling that username reveals similar equally loony posts elsewhere.

[AdMan]

Dupe post.

[CosmicDP]

Originally Posted by AdMan

It's possible, but Googling that username reveals similar equally loony posts elsewhere.

You have to admire the initiative he shows in his life list though;

1. to be someone great and to be the best ever in life at what I do.And to one day be a smarter computer scientist

[Hokulele]

Eh, the OP is being spammed all over the place right now. I seriously doubt anything constructive will come from responding here.

[AdMan]

Originally Posted by CosmicDP

You have to admire the initiative he shows in his life list though;

1. to be someone great and to be the best ever in life at what I do.And to one day be a smarter computer scientist

And if you click on the third tab on that page:

Quote:

TerryJAutry hasn't completed anything on their life list yet…

[CosmicDP]

Originally Posted by AdMan

And if you click on the third tab on that page:

I noticed that, but in fairness to him he does have lofty ambitions.

[AdMan]

Originally Posted by Hokulele

Eh, the OP is being spammed all over the place right now. I seriously doubt anything constructive will come from responding here.

You're probably right, but I hope terryjautry comes back. Could be good for a laugh.

[Trantor]

It's Friday. Pretty slow day here in the office today. I needed a good laugh and this thread delivered. Thank you.

[Astreja]

Originally Posted by CosmicDP

You have to admire the initiative he shows in his life list though...

I'd like to point out that one of the unfinished tasks on said life list is "Read the Bible." 'Nuff said.

[Kopji]

Quote:

Also I like to find it odd that hebrews were the only nomadic group and that explains why they probably never built strange temples and alien buildings, etc. and that explains why aliens never messed with them, probably because they were scared of God.

My personal favorite part.

Odd indeed that the Hebrews were never abducted by aliens and made to endure having various unspeakable body parts probed and poked and massaged and adorned with little gold rings... Or breast tattoos, none of those horrible things that other cultures had. Belly rings, OUT! Or oil, gently slathered... NO! none of that for them. uh...

[KevinCanada]

when the sun runs out of fuel and expands to encompass the earth and fry it to a crisp counts as being tormented by fire in hell doesn't it? That not proof? =)