Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Amazer]

Originally Posted by crimresearch

I've got some experience in EMS. Rescue squad, wilderness rescue, police 1st responder.

The MDs and paramedics have made their reports, the photos have been cleared up from the fakes, and I agree with them. Zimmerman was battered. He wasn't beaten severely.

Do you have some facts, or are you simply playing the game it looks like you are playing, of running away between these drive-by pooh flingings?

Not playing games, just asking questions that will (hopefully) clear any doubts I have.

Perhaps I occasionally respond to posts in a manner not to your liking; but that is really your problem. If you think that my posts run afoul to the MA, report them and if the mods agree with you; I'll be forced to reconsider my posting style. Till this comes to pass though you're stuck with the way things are.

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Originally Posted by crimresearch

It isn't impossible if George had a trunk monkey.

I think I like this theory the best so far. A trunk monkey would explain everything!

[LTC8K6]

Originally Posted by Amazer

So it all hinges on GZ's claim that TM went for his gun?

Nope.

GZ only needed to reasonably fear that he would be injured by TM. Any actual injuries are gravy.

Let's go to a hypothetical.

***

Let's say that TM "came out from the bushes" with a baseball bat, and swung at GZ, missing him. GZ then draws and fires.

GZ is uninjured, yes?

A Louisville Slugger can do GBH in one shot, yes?

GZ has a good self defense case, without any injuries.

GZ does not need to wait for TM to connect with the bat.

***

GZ similarly doesn't need to wait for TM to connect a few more times with his fist, or for TM to bang his head a few more times.

(Assuming GZ's story is accurate, that is, and so far there are no giant holes in it.)

Reaching for the gun? That's probably imagination on GZ's part.

[Bob001]

Just a question here: According to this NY Times diagram (you have to click on the arrows, go to the last page), TM struck GZ on the sidewalk at the T intersection BEFORE they were in the backyards between a row of townhouses. Then TM's body was found about three houses IN along that row. That's a pretty substantial distance. So, is this accurate? Does GZ claim that TM punched him, then ran away and GZ chased him? Or that GZ tried to run away, and TM chased him? Or that they struggled hand-to-hand the whole distance? Or what? How did they get from the initial punch to the location of the body?
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...on-martin.html

[crimresearch]

Originally Posted by Amazer

Not playing games, just asking questions that will (hopefully) clear any doubts I have.

Perhaps I occasionally respond to posts in a manner not to your liking; but that is really your problem. If you think that my posts run afoul to the MA, report them and if the mods agree with you; I'll be forced to reconsider my posting style. Till this comes to pass though you're stuck with the way things are.

I'll take that as a 'Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing'.

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

That works for me, or close enough. A 'savage beating' is in the eye of the beholder.
If things went as you described, it is as has been claimed numerous times - an unlucky combination of events gone terribly wrong that ended in the unfortunate death of a young man.

So you agree Zimmerman lied to the police about the nature of the assault?

[sgtbaker]

Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic

I think I like this theory the best so far. A trunk monkey would explain everything!

What the heck is a trunk monkey, anyway?

[crimresearch]

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

Nope.

GZ only needed to reasonably fear that he would be injured by TM. Any actual injuries are gravy.

Let's go to a hypothetical.

***

Let's say that TM "came out from the bushes" with a baseball bat, and swung at GZ, missing him. GZ then draws and fires.

GZ is uninjured, yes?

A Louisville Slugger can do GBH in one shot, yes?

GZ has a good self defense case, without any injuries.

GZ does not need to wait for TM to connect with the bat.

***

GZ similarly doesn't need to wait for TM to connect a few more times with his fist, or for TM to bang his head a few more times.

(Assuming GZ's story is accurate, that is, and so far there are no giant holes in it.)

Reaching for the gun? That's probably imagination on GZ's part.

The law requires a reasonable fear of great/greivous bodily harm, which has been legally defined here many times. Correct that the fact that it wasn't completed, isn't a factor.

[TheL8Elvis]

Originally Posted by Bob001

Just a question here: According to this NY Times diagram (you have to click on the arrows, go to the last page), TM struck GZ on the sidewalk at the T intersection BEFORE they were in the backyards between a row of townhouses. Then TM's body was found about three houses IN along that row. That's a pretty substantial distance. So, is this accurate? Does GZ claim that TM punched him, then ran away and GZ chased him? Or that GZ tried to run away, and TM chased him? Or that they struggled hand-to-hand the whole distance? Or what? How did they get from the initial punch to the location of the body?
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...on-martin.html

That appears accurate.

Both witnesses and GZ say they struggled the distance. GZ claimed (in the walk through) that he was punched and stumbled, then they grappled. Witnesses have the noise moving through the back yards.

Yes, I agree, it does look like a bit of a distance to have gone, but really it might just be 10 or 12 steps.

[Amazer]

Originally Posted by crimresearch

I'll take that as a 'Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing'.

You'd be wrong but I don't labor under the impression, nor do I have the interest, that anything I do or say will change your mind.

[TheL8Elvis]

Originally Posted by johnny karate

So you agree Zimmerman lied to the police about the nature of the assault?

Maybe. I don't think he lied about getting punched in the nose. I doubt he counted how many times he was punched, so 30 could be a lie (still haven't seen the source for that ) or an exaggeration or a best guess. I don't doubt the back of his head hit what felt like the sidewalk at least once ... maybe the three times as he said. Or maybe it just felt that way to him. I would say GZ is telling the story and erring on the side of over-zealous reporting of events. If you want to call it a lie, call it a lie.

It doesn't change anything meaningful as far as I am concerned. I just can't demonstrate or prove that's what he is doing. You can try, you can believe that's not what someone looks like after the beating he received, that's fine. As I stated, all the police reports, emt interviews, and even Singleton and Serino during the interviews talk about how bruised and swollen he is.

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by bookworm

I agree. The witness said he was beating the crap out of him. (Not his exact words)

No witness said anything like that. The only witness who said anything close retracted his original statement and said he isn't sure what be saw.

Can you explain how Martin remained untouched by Zimmerman's blood after repeatedly punching Zimmerman's bleeding face, repeatedly bashing his bleeding head into the ground, and attempting to smother him, all with his bare hands?

[Rare Truth]

First interview with Detective Singleton THAT NIGHT: (I'm on the path back to my car) Then: He jumped out from the bushes, he punched me in the nose, at that point I fell down. -- I tried to defends myself and he just started punching me in the face, I couldn't see, I couldn't breath...

Singleton asks: Are you still standing at this time?

GZ: No, Ma'am. I fell to the ground when he punched me the first time.

[Unabogie]

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

That appears accurate.

Both witnesses and GZ say they struggled the distance. GZ claimed (in the walk through) that he was punched and stumbled, then they grappled. Witnesses have the noise moving through the back yards.

Yes, I agree, it does look like a bit of a distance to have gone, but really it might just be 10 or 12 steps.

Right, it's a little hard to hear on the walkthrough, but while he claimed earlier that he went right down after the one punch, in the walkthrough, he says, while sort of swinging his hands, that he "tried to push him away" and sort of "stumbled". But he does this as he's walking south, which would be the opposite of pushing him away, since he's walking towards the guy who just hit him.

But regardless, his explanation is that he stumbled down that 25', swinging his hands, in an attempt to push Trayvon away from him. He does not know how he got down on the ground in this version.

[Unabogie]

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

Maybe. I don't think he lied about getting punched in the nose. I doubt he counted how many times he was punched, so 30 could be a lie (still haven't seen the source for that ) or an exaggeration or a best guess. I don't doubt the back of his head hit what felt like the sidewalk at least once ... maybe the three times as he said. Or maybe it just felt that way to him. I would say GZ is telling the story and erring on the side of over-zealous reporting of events. If you want to call it a lie, call it a lie.

It doesn't change anything meaningful as far as I am concerned. I just can't demonstrate or prove that's what he is doing. You can try, you can believe that's not what someone looks like after the beating he received, that's fine. As I stated, all the police reports, emt interviews, and even Singleton and Serino during the interviews talk about how bruised and swollen he is.

But doesn't Serino also say that his injuries don't match his story?

[Cylinder]

Originally Posted by Rare Truth

...to scan the area where the victim had lain...

We don't know if the casing was under the body. We only know that it was near it (i.e. the area where the body had lain.) It makes no difference really since Martin was in the rolled-over position at the time the casing was found.

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

Maybe. I don't think he lied about getting punched in the nose. I doubt he counted how many times he was punched, so 30 could be a lie (still haven't seen the source for that ) or an exaggeration or a best guess. I don't doubt the back of his head hit what felt like the sidewalk at least once ... maybe the three times as he said. Or maybe it just felt that way to him. I would say GZ is telling the story and erring on the side of over-zealous reporting of events. If you want to call it a lie, call it a lie.

It doesn't change anything meaningful as far as I am concerned. I just can't demonstrate or prove that's what he is doing. You can try, you can believe that's not what someone looks like after the beating he received, that's fine. As I stated, all the police reports, emt interviews, and even Singleton and Serino during the interviews talk about how bruised and swollen he is.

You seem to be angling away from the point.

Zimmerman made three specific claims about the nature of the assault.

1) Martin repeatedly punched him in the face.

2) Martin repeatedly bashed his head on the ground.

3) Martin attempted to smother him with his hands.

All three actions would necessitate that Martin come in contact with Zimmerman's head and face which EMTs report were almost half covered in blood.

Forensics report that Martin had none of Zimmerman's blood or DNA on his hands.

How do acccount for that?

[sgtbaker]

Originally Posted by Unabogie

Again, how about we dial this back a bit, just for fun, huh?

I am sorry if it comes off as personal. I swear to you, it is not. If I fervantly disagree with you, on a particular topic, I am going to say I fervantly disagree with you. It has absolutely zero affect on my respect for you as an individual. I did not feel like I was getting heated or personal. If you would like, I will refrain from responding to your posts, in the future.

[Unabogie]

Originally Posted by sgtbaker

I am sorry if it comes off as personal. I swear to you, it is not. If I fervantly disagree with you, on a particular topic, I am going to say I fervantly disagree with you. It has absolutely zero affect on my respect for you as an individual. I did not feel like I was getting heated or personal. If you would like, I will refrain from responding to your posts, in the future.

Or we could just be two friendly people who disagree and try and steer away from loaded language and gotcha moments.

That's been known to work too

[sgtbaker]

Originally Posted by Unabogie

Or we could just be two friendly people who disagree and try and steer away from loaded language and gotcha moments.

That's been known to work too

I thought I was

[crimresearch]

Originally Posted by Amazer

You'd be wrong but I don't labor under the impression, nor do I have the interest, that anything I do or say will change your mind.

Assumes facts not in evidence... like you making a supportable assertion *or* giving a straight answer after being asked legitimate questions about your drive bys.

[TheL8Elvis]

Originally Posted by johnny karate

You seem to be angling away from the point.

Well, I tried to answer the question you asked me.

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Zimmerman made three specific claims about the nature of the assault.

1) Martin repeatedly punched him in the face.

2) Martin repeatedly bashed his head on the ground.

3) Martin attempted to smother him with his hands.

OK, I don't have a specific problem with any of those claims.

Originally Posted by johnny karate

All three actions would necessitate that Martin come in contact with Zimmerman's head and face which EMTs report were almost half covered in blood.

Forensics report that Martin had none of Zimmerman's blood or DNA on his hands.

How do acccount for that?

I don't know. I don't know if the rain had any effect or not. I don't know how much blood to really expect on his hands. I think this is something that will have to be explained by experts at trial.

I can only at this moment say I believe TM hit him some number of times greater than, say, 5, and didn't have blood or DNA on his hands. I don't know what the 'believable' limit for number of hits with no blood or DNA is for you. Obviously there is some lower number that is believable ?

[Rare Truth]

What the hell is this "drive by" crap?

A poster posts on a message board when they are inclined and they have the time.

What makes her responses, inquiries, analysis or questions any less a contribution than yours?

Her response about the EMT experience was directed at LCT8K6 - not even you - and you jump in with this:

"...Do you have some facts, or are you simply playing the game it looks like you are playing, of running away between these drive-by pooh flingings? "

Just looks like more attempts to deride the poster to me.

[triforcharity]

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

I actually think it's very obvious that he was punched many times and his head was banged on something hard many times.

I have no trouble believing TM beat the crap out of GZ that night.

His head was supposedly slammed many times on the sidewalk. And yet, only three very small lacerations appear on the back of his head.

I've been in one major fight in my life. I was with some friends at a local adult entertainment club, and me and my friends were jumped. I got a few punches in before I started losing, and even just the 4 punches (including one suckerpunch) that I received, my face looked 100x's as bad as his. Huge, black and blue eyes, huge fat lip that was purple, and one eye almost swollen shut.

Sorry, I don't buy it. You're welcome to, but myself and the 3 other paramedics here, do not. So, you're welcome to believe whatever you'd like. I refuse to believe he received the ass whooping that he claims he did.

[triforcharity]

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

I think we all know how well the "internet doctor" thing worked out earlier in the thread.

You mean the one you got schooled on? lol!

[triforcharity]

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

Besides, GZ doesn't need to have any bad injuries, or even any injuries at all...

No, you're right. But the problem is really simple.

The story GZ is telling is that he was attacked and beaten, and was in direct fear of his life. Now, I know that this is going to be difficult, but we'll go slow.

Why aren't his injuries consistent with his story? (hint: they aren't.)

So, his story just purely isn't believable.

Also, the LAST thing you want to do when in a hand to hand combat struggle with a person trying to get your weapon, is draw that weapon. That is the LAST thing you want. Keep it away from the other person, or get away in any way possible, whatever. The LAST thing you want to do is make that gun visible and accessible.

But, then again, we know GZ doesn't think very rationally...

[TheL8Elvis]

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

I think we all know how well the "internet doctor" thing worked out earlier in the thread.

Originally Posted by triforcharity

You mean the one you got schooled on? lol!

If that's how you remember it. I recall a number of posters who claimed they looked at pictures on the internet, and GZ definitely did not have a broken nose. And they looked at pictures, and said there is no way he could have needed stitches. And then we heard from the non-Internet EMTs and Doctors.

Do you really want me to go back and put your statements in the current context of the emts who actually examined GZ who stated they thought the police would take him to the hospital for stitches ?

[Rare Truth]

He *still* does not "definitely" have a broken nose, only thing we have is his own doctor calling it a "likely" broken nose, "We discussed it was likely a broken nose with no septal deviation..."

...and he never got stitches.

ONE paramedic said maybe one or two stitches.

They were not concerned enough to even apply a bandage.

Then George said himself: They told me I didn't need to go to the hospital.

From my earlier post:

He refused medical treatment that night. That tells us a lot.
He refused seeking ENT specialist the next day to confirm nose broken. Tells us more.
He tells Singleton that night he feels generally OK - he also states to her that night "they told me I didn't need to go to the hospital."

[OnlyTellsTruths]

Originally Posted by Rare Truth

He *still* does not "definitely" have a broken nose, only thing we have is his own doctor calling it a "likely" broken nose, "We discussed it was likely a broken nose with no septal deviation..."

I posted this last week, good to keep in mind:

Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths

On the matter of the broken nose.

Some of you are acting like a broken nose is binary. Broken or not broken. Isn't there a large range, from barely fractured to completely destroyed (layman's terms)?

I'd be surprised if Z's broken nose is (was) anywhere near the destroyed end of the range, since ,AFAIK, people that have a completely destroyed nose lose tons of blood and are in severe pain for quite some time.

So I wonder if many people who are saying that Z didn't have a broken nose are meaning that he didn't have a real broken nose, IE completely destroyed.

[Cylinder]

Originally Posted by triforcharity

His head was supposedly slammed many times on the sidewalk. And yet, only three very small lacerations appear on the back of his head.

Of course, since we're both familiar with fistfights, we both know that the hit-to-mark ratio isn't 100% for someone Martin's size and build, right?

I'm not trying to be snarky here, BTW. I'm curious why the inconsistent injury claim is made. I know why the police make it - it's what they have to say. Putting aside what you know about this case and using your professional experience can you honestly say that if presented with these injuries and the narrative of someone having their head slammed against the concrete and punches, you'd be able to rule that attack out?

[Rare Truth]

I guess what I'm saying is he doesn't have a documented broken nose.

Only a likely one. Had he not REFUSED to go to the ENT, as that same family doctor noted he should, we'd know for sure.

[Rare Truth]

I read a little scenario typed by someone elsewhere on how effectively the prosecution could handle that doctors report - with the doctor on the stand on cross:

Q: In your report, you said that the defendant's nose was "likely broken". What led you to this conclusion?

A: Well when I examined it there was <medical jargon> and <more medical jargon> all of which pointed to the possibility of a closed fracture.

Q: Oh. The possibility. So it wasn't a confirmed diagnosis?

A: No it wasn't a confirmed diagnosis.

Q: What did you do from there?

A: <more medical jargon and explanation of medical procedure in situations like this> ... Since I had no way of being certain I referred him to a specialist for confirmation.

Q: Did he see the specialist for confirmation purposes?

A: No he declined my recommendation.

Q: Oh. So you're saying he refused to go?

O'Mara: Objection! Asked and answered!

Judge Lester: Overruled. Answer the question.

A: That's correct.

Q: And because of that he wasn't able to confirm the fracture?

A: That's also correct.

Q: From a medical standpoint, could you say for certain that the defendant's nose was broken?

A: No I could not. *glances at notes* As I said, there was a strong possibility of a closed fracture but without Dr. <specialist>'s diagnosis I can't confirm it one way or another.

Q: Thank you for your testimony.

[triforcharity]

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

Let's say that TM "came out from the bushes" with a baseball bat, and swung at GZ, missing him. GZ then draws and fires.

GZ is uninjured, yes? Sure

A Louisville Slugger can do GBH in one shot, yes? Absolutely

GZ has a good self defense case, without any injuries. Correct. TM also had a deadly weapon, that he had (in this case) shown to be willing to use

GZ does not need to wait for TM to connect with the bat.

Correct. But, again, a baseball bat can certainly be considered a deadly weapon. TM had nothing but his fists....

My answers in bold.

***

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

GZ similarly doesn't need to wait for TM to connect a few more times with his fist, or for TM to bang his head a few more times.

(Assuming GZ's story is accurate, that is, and so far there are no giant holes in it.)

Reaching for the gun? That's probably imagination on GZ's part.

But, again, the law states that he must be in reasonable fear of his life. IMPO, a fist fight does not constitute a reasonable fear, especially one that leaves no bruising and no real visible swelling.

Wanna see what a real fistfight victim looks like?

****Some graphic images****

http://atlas-emergency-medicine.org....s/image021.jpg

http://files.forensicmed.webnode.com...ft_to_face.jpg

Now, look at GZ's face, and look at these ones. Which one appears to have been in a more severe fight?

[sgtbaker]

I don't know if it's actually evidence of anything but you can hear faint nose whistling in the first interview with Zimmerman. My nose does the same noises (actually it's doing it right now and it's making me laugh), but I don't know if it started after I got kicked in the nose or if I was born with a deviated septum. I just thought it was funny and the talk of septum deviation reminded me that I heard that in the interview. Carry on.

[triforcharity]

Originally Posted by sgtbaker

What the heck is a trunk monkey, anyway?

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

They're hilarious!

Compilation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...6WB5YJia8&NR=1

[TheL8Elvis]

Originally Posted by Rare Truth

He *still* does not "definitely" have a broken nose, only thing we have is his own doctor calling it a "likely" broken nose, "We discussed it was likely a broken nose with no septal deviation..."

That's typically the only diagnosis people get. Most people don't get X-rays or go to an ENT to confirm.

Originally Posted by Rare Truth

...and he never got stitches.

Oh, goodness ! Did someone claim he did ?

Originally Posted by Rare Truth

ONE paramedic said maybe one or two stitches.

You can , of course, support that claim with a link ?
I've listened to the paramedic audio. None of them said "maybe one or two stitches".

Originally Posted by Rare Truth

They were not concerned enough to even apply a bandage.

Then George said himself: They told me I didn't need to go to the hospital.

Which is true. He wasn't required to go to the hospital. Shocking.

Originally Posted by Rare Truth

From my earlier post:

He refused medical treatment that night. That tells us a lot.
He refused seeking ENT specialist the next day to confirm nose broken. Tells us more.
He tells Singleton that night he feels generally OK - he also states to her that night "they told me I didn't need to go to the hospital."

Maybe it tells us he didn't have the money to pay for an emergency room visit ? What do you think it tells us ? Maybe he was planning to go home and have shellie break his nose ?

[sgtbaker]

Originally Posted by Rare Truth

I read a little scenario typed by someone elsewhere on how effectively the prosecution could handle that doctors report - with the doctor on the stand on cross:

Q: In your report, you said that the defendant's nose was "likely broken". What led you to this conclusion?

A: Well when I examined it there was <medical jargon> and <more medical jargon> all of which pointed to the possibility of a closed fracture.

Q: Oh. The possibility. So it wasn't a confirmed diagnosis?

A: No it wasn't a confirmed diagnosis.

Q: What did you do from there?

A: <more medical jargon and explanation of medical procedure in situations like this> ... Since I had no way of being certain I referred him to a specialist for confirmation.

Q: Did he see the specialist for confirmation purposes?

A: No he declined my recommendation.

Q: Oh. So you're saying he refused to go?

O'Mara: Objection! Asked and answered!

Judge Lester: Overruled. Answer the question.

A: That's correct.

Q: And because of that he wasn't able to confirm the fracture?

A: That's also correct.

Q: From a medical standpoint, could you say for certain that the defendant's nose was broken?

A: No I could not. *glances at notes* As I said, there was a strong possibility of a closed fracture but without Dr. <specialist>'s diagnosis I can't confirm it one way or another.

Q: Thank you for your testimony.

Does anyone else remember O'Mara countering that line of questioning with asking if they were aware that Zimmerman went to the doctor the next day? I could have sworn OM said he was going to hand over documents showing that Zimmerman's nose was actually broken, when he went to the doctor the next day.

[LTC8K6]

Originally Posted by Bob001

Just a question here: According to this NY Times diagram (you have to click on the arrows, go to the last page), TM struck GZ on the sidewalk at the T intersection BEFORE they were in the backyards between a row of townhouses. Then TM's body was found about three houses IN along that row. That's a pretty substantial distance. So, is this accurate? Does GZ claim that TM punched him, then ran away and GZ chased him? Or that GZ tried to run away, and TM chased him? Or that they struggled hand-to-hand the whole distance? Or what? How did they get from the initial punch to the location of the body?
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...on-martin.html

A good punch can make you stagger backwards a few steps.

GZ might not have been exactly at the T.

TM may have pushed GZ, or they may have struggled on the ground, moving south.

The distances are not totally out of line with an encounter roughly as GZ described.

TM's body was rolled over as well.

[sgtbaker]

Originally Posted by triforcharity

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

They're hilarious!

LOL

I want one!

[Rare Truth]

Originally Posted by sgtbaker

I don't know if it's actually evidence of anything but you can hear faint nose whistling in the first interview with Zimmerman. My nose does the same noises (actually it's doing it right now and it's making me laugh), but I don't know if it started after I got kicked in the nose or if I was born with a deviated septum. I just thought it was funny and the talk of septum deviation reminded me that I heard that in the interview. Carry on.

That interview the night of the incident, he tells Singleton at one point (or maybe it was the stress test guy...) that his nose was blocked, yet he sounded the same in all the interviews, tone-wise.

Block your nose right now and talk out of it.

How different do you sound?