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Tags George Zimmerman , shooting incidents , Trayvon Martin

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Old 23rd June 2012, 10:55 AM   #81
TheL8Elvis
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Yes it is. The act of shooting the kid is not in dispute. What is in dispute is whether or not Trayvon Martin attacked him for no reason at all, in a fit of homicidal rage, as George claims. If George is lying (and at this point are you claiming his story holds up?) then what's left?

A shooting of an unarmed kid, by a guy who pegged him wrongly for a criminal and then followed him and ignored all common sense. And then lied his ass off about the events that night. And you think a jury will have trouble convicting under those circumstances?
I'm not the one to be debating the legality aspect - but AFAIK, GZ still gets to use self defense, even if he he started the fight. Not SYG, but self defense. The case does not hinge on TM attacking GZ for no reason. And even if it did, although you do not believe GZ, we have yet to see any evidence ( and the state conceded at the bond hearing they don't have any ) that demonstrates GZ was the aggressor. We have evidence that the first person to speak was TM ... which certainly lends support to the idea that TM iniated a verbal confrontation, that led to a physical confrontation.

Whether yo believe GZ tried to detain TM or not, the state has not shown us any evidence or proof that is what he did.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 11:04 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Maybe. But care to address the point above about how he was at the clubhouse for the "circling" but then in the re-enactment that whole scene moved to the "T"?
In the interview on the 29th he seem genuinely unsure of exactly what took place where. I think it goes directly to my point that each time the event is recalled more detail get jumbled. By the time he does the walk through, that is the third time he's recalled the events of that night.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 11:58 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Does anyone else notice that witness one's story is identical to witness two's original story? They were both cooking dinner when they saw one figure chasing another and they were both turning the stove off, when they heard the shot. It wouldn't be so weird if they didn't live in the same house. How many stoves do they have? Then, witness two's story is entirely different when she goes to the state attorney's office. She was upstairs when she heard the shot, not downstairs in the kitchen. I tried to see if they had similar voices but I can't tell, with the distortion of one call being recorded over the phone but he made both interviews on the 1st so I am inclined to believe they are two separate people.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 12:28 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
I'm not the one to be debating the legality aspect - but AFAIK, GZ still gets to use self defense, even if he he started the fight. Not SYG, but self defense. The case does not hinge on TM attacking GZ for no reason. And even if it did, although you do not believe GZ, we have yet to see any evidence ( and the state conceded at the bond hearing they don't have any ) that demonstrates GZ was the aggressor. We have evidence that the first person to speak was TM ... which certainly lends support to the idea that TM iniated a verbal confrontation, that led to a physical confrontation.

Whether yo believe GZ tried to detain TM or not, the state has not shown us any evidence or proof that is what he did.
If you take into account the little rant of GZ about 'them always getting away', the fact that GZ left the car then I don't think it's a stretch to assume that GZ was the aggressor.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 12:31 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by sgtbaker View Post
In the interview on the 29th he seem genuinely unsure of exactly what took place where. I think it goes directly to my point that each time the event is recalled more detail get jumbled. By the time he does the walk through, that is the third time he's recalled the events of that night.
Yes, but here's the rub, and why I'm wondering if you've listened to the tapes and watched the walkthrough. It's the walkthrough that's impossible, and that happened last. On the NEN call, he's clearly at the clubhouse when he talked about Trayvon approaching his car. This is when he pulled ahead of Trayvon and Trayvon is on his way home. This all takes place in about 1 minute. But in the 29th interview, he's still saying it took place at the clubhouse, until it's pointed out to him how that doesn't make sense. The next time, he's moved it to the T and he says that Trayvon ran around the corner, came back again, back out onto the street, and then circled his car. This is his final version and it's impossible both in terms of timing and because it directly contradicts his NEN and earlier statements.

There is no way this is confusion that was cleared up in his mind. His final version is a fantasy. He's clearly lying here.

Again, open up Google maps, then do the following in order:

1. NEN
2. Version from the 29th
3. Walkthrough.

And then come back and tell me it still makes sense to you.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 12:43 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
If you take into account the little rant of GZ about 'them always getting away', the fact that GZ left the car then I don't think it's a stretch to assume that GZ was the aggressor.
And what is your point?

As you already know, 'being the aggressor' in that sense (staring at Martin, calling the police, following, and saying 'What are you doing here?' when questioned), does nothing to take away the right to self defense.

The court requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was either committing a forcible felony, or that Martin did not grab for the gun first.

The first isn't even on the table, and the last doesn't look like it can be proven with what has been shown so far.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 12:47 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by sgtbaker View Post
Does anyone else notice that witness one's story is identical to witness two's original story? They were both cooking dinner when they saw one figure chasing another and they were both turning the stove off, when they heard the shot. It wouldn't be so weird if they didn't live in the same house. How many stoves do they have? Then, witness two's story is entirely different when she goes to the state attorney's office. She was upstairs when she heard the shot, not downstairs in the kitchen. I tried to see if they had similar voices but I can't tell, with the distortion of one call being recorded over the phone but he made both interviews on the 1st so I am inclined to believe they are two separate people.
I went to your link and listened to W1's interview (W1_SPD03012012.wav). She thought it was kids playing at first, saw hands waving around, and the neighbor come out. The interviewer mentions her sister, and asks about her sister seeing the figures running. She says her sister was upstairs at the time of the shooting, and she hadn't talked to her about what she had seen.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 01:14 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
If you take into account the little rant of GZ about 'them always getting away', the fact that GZ left the car then I don't think it's a stretch to assume that GZ was the aggressor.
Assuming is not proving beyond a reasonable doubt, is it ?
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Old 23rd June 2012, 01:22 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Yes, but here's the rub, and why I'm wondering if you've listened to the tapes and watched the walkthrough. It's the walkthrough that's impossible, and that happened last. On the NEN call, he's clearly at the clubhouse when he talked about Trayvon approaching his car. This is when he pulled ahead of Trayvon and Trayvon is on his way home. This all takes place in about 1 minute. But in the 29th interview, he's still saying it took place at the clubhouse, until it's pointed out to him how that doesn't make sense. The next time, he's moved it to the T and he says that Trayvon ran around the corner, came back again, back out onto the street, and then circled his car. This is his final version and it's impossible both in terms of timing and because it directly contradicts his NEN and earlier statements.

There is no way this is confusion that was cleared up in his mind. His final version is a fantasy. He's clearly lying here.

Again, open up Google maps, then do the following in order:

1. NEN
2. Version from the 29th
3. Walkthrough.

And then come back and tell me it still makes sense to you.
I watched the walkthrough, when it was released on the news, and I watched it again, when it was linked here, because the news started talking over the video, at the point where Zimmerman was explaining how he was holding Trayvons hands out. I listened to the audio, again, last night. The order of the interviews appears to be, one period of questioning the night of the incident, a few hours later (now after midnight dated 2-27) another interview, then the walk through, the following morning. By the time we get to the walk through, I can already see blatant spots where he is not sure of the actual order of events such as the 911 conversation. When they are standing at the opposite street, he recalls part of the conversation that didn't happen, and then starts confabulating them with things that did happen. Then he realizes, "No, I was standing over there when the operator said this." You can see his memory is really starting to fail but he appears to be trying to keep things in order but no matter how hard an individual tries, they are going to fail at remembering every detail. Our brains will fill in that detail, subconsciously, to maintain the story. It is very possible that he does not remember exactly where
Trayvon approached the car. We do know, though, that there was a point that Trayvon approached the car because he was narrating it. Of all things, what do you think his reason is for lying about that?

Seriously, have you ever watched Randi's videos proving how bad our memory is when talking to a pscychic? There was one where he had a woman get a psychic reading. She was supposed to tell the psychic every time she got something wrong. Then he listens to the recording and counts how many times they psychic got something wrong. The woman's answer was in the low tens. James Randi said he counted something in the 40's guesses the psychic got wrong. We do not have perfect memories. Our brains don't always remember things in the correct order.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 01:25 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by GWCarver View Post
I went to your link and listened to W1's interview (W1_SPD03012012.wav). She thought it was kids playing at first, saw hands waving around, and the neighbor come out. The interviewer mentions her sister, and asks about her sister seeing the figures running. She says her sister was upstairs at the time of the shooting, and she hadn't talked to her about what she had seen.
Yes, her version is more detailed but the elements are identical. The third link from the bottom of the grouping of Witness 2's statement is taken on the same day as witness 1's. Listen to one, and then the other, then listen to witness 2's statement with the state department, and then tell me something is not weird, there.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 02:04 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Just one ... that matches up more with GZ story of TM disappearing between the houses then coming back ?
Except on the NEN timeline "the circling" would have to take place at the latest more than 3 minutes before the first witness 911 call reporting the fight at 7:16:11, so for Witness #2 to see Martin before he went back and "circled" there would be a gap of 4-5 minutes witness #2 did not report.

And that begs the question "Why did George not specifically mention the circling."
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Old 23rd June 2012, 02:18 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by sgtbaker View Post
~~~~
The order of the interviews appears to be, one period of questioning the night of the incident, a few hours later (now after midnight dated 2-27) another interview, then the walk through, the following morning. By the time we get to the walk through, I can already see blatant spots where he is not sure of the actual order of events such as the 911 conversation. When they are standing at the opposite street, he recalls part of the conversation that didn't happen, and then starts confabulating them with things that did happen. Then he realizes, "No, I was standing over there when the operator said this." You can see his memory is really starting to fail but he appears to be trying to keep things in order but no matter how hard an individual tries, they are going to fail at remembering every detail. Our brains will fill in that detail, subconsciously, to maintain the story. It is very possible that he does not remember exactly where
Trayvon approached the car. We do know, though, that there was a point that Trayvon approached the car because he was narrating it. Of all things, what do you think his reason is for lying about that?
But we have a real time statement from George on where he was when he was directing the cops to his truck

Zimmerman: Naaah…you go in straight through the entrance…and then you make a left…uh…yea, you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left- ah ****. He's running.

"and make a left". He's on the east west section of Twin Trees, not at the clubhouse.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 02:23 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
But we have a real time statement from George on where he was when he was directing the cops to his truck

Zimmerman: Naaah…you go in straight through the entrance…and then you make a left…uh…yea, you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left- ah ****. He's running.

"and make a left". He's on the east west section of Twin Trees, not at the clubhouse.
That sounds like incredibly clear directions to exactly where he was.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 02:34 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by sgtbaker View Post
That sounds like incredibly clear directions to exactly where he was.
Yeah, George sucks at giving directions. He can tell you what it looks like where he is, but not how he got there.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 02:49 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
Yeah, George sucks at giving directions. He can tell you what it looks like where he is, but not how he got there.
Not all that uncommon. Visual processing of memory is the most accurate.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 03:08 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by sgtbaker View Post
I watched the walkthrough, when it was released on the news, and I watched it again, when it was linked here, because the news started talking over the video, at the point where Zimmerman was explaining how he was holding Trayvons hands out. I listened to the audio, again, last night. The order of the interviews appears to be, one period of questioning the night of the incident, a few hours later (now after midnight dated 2-27) another interview, then the walk through, the following morning. By the time we get to the walk through, I can already see blatant spots where he is not sure of the actual order of events such as the 911 conversation. When they are standing at the opposite street, he recalls part of the conversation that didn't happen, and then starts confabulating them with things that did happen. Then he realizes, "No, I was standing over there when the operator said this." You can see his memory is really starting to fail but he appears to be trying to keep things in order but no matter how hard an individual tries, they are going to fail at remembering every detail. Our brains will fill in that detail, subconsciously, to maintain the story. It is very possible that he does not remember exactly where
Trayvon approached the car. We do know, though, that there was a point that Trayvon approached the car because he was narrating it. Of all things, what do you think his reason is for lying about that?
Ok, on this note, there's a theory that more closely matches the facts and seems to be where Serino is as well. NOTE: This is my theory. It seems to fit, but I'm not saying it's all true. I don't know, ok? Speculation ahead!

George sees Trayvon and pulls up by the clubhouse. He does NOT park in the lot, as he said, but stops by the curb. That's when Trayvon walks past him. He's not lying about that, yet. So he follows him on a slow drive. This fits the timeline. He's over where he jumps out in less than a minute. He drove there and never stopped at the clubhouse. He's lying about this because following him in his car the whole time makes him look like a stalker.

Trayvon sees him doing the slow drive and runs. George follows.

So he arrives somewhere near the T and jumps out of his car. This is way past the time that Trayvon walked past his car. There is no circling of the car since as soon as he arrives near the T he jumps out and follows.

Next, here's why I think they ended up 25' south of the T. He tells the dispatcher that he's following and when he's told to stop, 1:20 later he hangs up. So maybe he wasn't even parked where he says. Maybe he parked in a different spot than he claimed. The timeline would fit better. At some point, near the T, he finds Trayvon. This is only a few minutes from the first moment he calls the police, and Google maps says it takes 4:00 to get from 1440 to the T on foot.

Zimmerman does his "What are you doing here" routine. Trayvon does his "why are you following me for". Zimmerman grabs him by the arm and Trayvon punches him. Zimmerman goes down or simply backs up. Trayvon runs back south. This would explain why witnesses saw them running past, either one of them or both of them.

Zimmerman runs up to affect his citizen's arrest and they fall to the ground. Zimmerman could very well be the person screaming, but maybe just to get someone to help him detain the kid. There is no evidence that punches are being thrown here. Trayvon gets up on top. Maybe they roll around and swap places.

At least this scenario would explain the timeline and where they ended up. As I said, this is what the police thought as well, which is why they kept asking him if he tried to detain the kid.

ETA: And in this scenario, George could indeed have been scared. But his dishonesty revolves around removing any mention of his own actions that led to the fight.

Remember, in his version, he never says a single word to Trayvon. Not once! And yet Trayvon attacks him and wants to kill him, saying "you gonna die tonight, ************" all without George ever giving him any provocation at all! This is where I think George is doing the most lying. He wanted to catch Trayvon and made some sort of attempt to do so. That's what caused all this.

Again, that's clearly what the police thought, and nothing else explains George's many lies.

Last edited by Unabogie; 23rd June 2012 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 04:01 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Zimmerman does his "What are you doing here" routine. Trayvon does his "why are you following me for".

So DeeDee is lying to help Zimmerman?

The quoted part is useful though. The state will have to manufacture a theory of the crime that fits the evidence and shows criminal behavior. Then they have to provide evidence for that theory. Not an easy task.

This case is not built around credibility. That's just another Team Crump talking point. There is an incredible amount of independant evidence here. Hopefully, this week we get the 911 call log and DeeDee's redacted phone records. Then we can stich everything to gather to see how long Zimmerman went unobserved. I think the results may be suprising.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 04:21 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Ok, on this note, there's a theory that more closely matches the facts and seems to be where Serino is as well. NOTE: This is my theory. It seems to fit, but I'm not saying it's all true. I don't know, ok? Speculation ahead!

George sees Trayvon and pulls up by the clubhouse. He does NOT park in the lot, as he said, but stops by the curb. That's when Trayvon walks past him. He's not lying about that, yet. So he follows him on a slow drive. This fits the timeline. He's over where he jumps out in less than a minute. He drove there and never stopped at the clubhouse. He's lying about this because following him in his car the whole time makes him look like a stalker.

Trayvon sees him doing the slow drive and runs. George follows.

So he arrives somewhere near the T and jumps out of his car. This is way past the time that Trayvon walked past his car. There is no circling of the car since as soon as he arrives near the T he jumps out and follows.

Next, here's why I think they ended up 25' south of the T. He tells the dispatcher that he's following and when he's told to stop, 1:20 later he hangs up. So maybe he wasn't even parked where he says. Maybe he parked in a different spot than he claimed. The timeline would fit better. At some point, near the T, he finds Trayvon. This is only a few minutes from the first moment he calls the police, and Google maps says it takes 4:00 to get from 1440 to the T on foot.



~~~
Again, that's clearly what the police thought, and nothing else explains George's many lies.
Extreme alternative speculation ahead (verges to WMG tererritory)

c.1909 George sees Martin emerge from the short cut, slows done to stalk/drive very slowly for some random reason

c.1910 (+1 minute) Martin turns south onto the walkway west of the clubhouse
George gets a brainwave, drives by the clubhouse to get ahead of "the suspect", doesn't stop by the clubhouse but reverses his truck on the E-W section of Twin Trees where he can observe the clubhouse

1911:12 (+2 minutes) George phones NEN

c.1912 (+3 minutes) Martin, having crossed under the veranda at the south of the clubhouse. emerges by the post boxes "19:11:52 He's here now and he’s just staring…" [yeah Dude, you are behaving weird. what with following, turning around, and parking with your headlights on ]

1912:30 "Ayup, he's coming to check me out."

c.1913(+4 minutes) Martin reaches George's truck and "circles it"/walks around it because George has parked it in his path. Once clear...

19:13:18 "ah ****. He's running."

c.1913:30 George loses sight of Martin when he sees Martin turn south
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Old 23rd June 2012, 04:33 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Cylinder View Post
So DeeDee is lying to help Zimmerman?

The quoted part is useful though. The state will have to manufacture a theory of the crime that fits the evidence and shows criminal behavior. Then they have to provide evidence for that theory. Not an easy task.

This case is not built around credibility. That's just another Team Crump talking point. There is an incredible amount of independant evidence here. Hopefully, this week we get the 911 call log and DeeDee's redacted phone records. Then we can stich everything to gather to see how long Zimmerman went unobserved. I think the results may be suprising.

Where is DD lying? This doesn't help Zimmerman. It merely explains what happened. And stop with the "Team Crump" stuff. This is about the State of Florida vs George Zimmerman. You can try and pin your hopes on some sort of gotcha regarding DD, but George has already sunk himself. Did you listen to his interrogation? He cannot explain himself. His story is full of holes. He has lied multiple times and can't explain the very basics of his account: why? Why did Trayvon Martin attack him with no provocation? In his account, Trayvon attacked him and nothing was said between them Trayvon stalked him and then tried to kill him. Based on his other lies and the ridiculousness of his interview, how can you still buy his version of the events that night? Do you not see how his timeline cannot be true? How he made up the part about circling his car? How he lied about returning to the car after the phone call to NEN? How his version of the dialogue makes no sense? How his claim that he wasn't following Traybon seems absurd? How his anger and frustration show in his phone call, yet he claims he didn't even want to catch Trayvon?

So keep trying to make this about "Team Crump". I stand by my prediction that George will be convicted or will plea down to manslaughter. He will not be acquitted.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 04:37 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
Extreme alternative speculation ahead (verges to WMG tererritory)

c.1909 George sees Martin emerge from the short cut, slows done to stalk/drive very slowly for some random reason

c.1910 (+1 minute) Martin turns south onto the walkway west of the clubhouse
George gets a brainwave, drives by the clubhouse to get ahead of "the suspect", doesn't stop by the clubhouse but reverses his truck on the E-W section of Twin Trees where he can observe the clubhouse

1911:12 (+2 minutes) George phones NEN

c.1912 (+3 minutes) Martin, having crossed under the veranda at the south of the clubhouse. emerges by the post boxes "19:11:52 He's here now and he’s just staring…" [yeah Dude, you are behaving weird. what with following, turning around, and parking with your headlights on ]

1912:30 "Ayup, he's coming to check me out."

c.1913(+4 minutes) Martin reaches George's truck and "circles it"/walks around it because George has parked it in his path. Once clear...

19:13:18 "ah ****. He's running."

c.1913:30 George loses sight of Martin when he sees Martin turn south
Except he's on tape saying that he's right at the clubhouse, then seconds later that's where Trayvon "checks him out". That's why it's impossible he was parked there, but also why it's impossible that the "circling" happened at the T, as he claims in his walkthrough. For me, it's the way the walkthrough doesn't match the NEN that sinks him. He made up a narrative that helps him appear as though he wasn't following and only went to look for an address, but in doing so, he contradicts himself in such a grievous way that I don't see how he can explain himself later. And his scenario about Trayvon running behind the rows, then coming back, and THEN circling the car, is so detailed, that if he's making that up, it just devastates his credibility. And the NEN proves he's making that up. I don't see an out for the guy.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 04:51 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Where is DD lying?
Your candidate theory used Zimmerman's initiation of the dialouge as evidence of his overzealousness. DeeDee's statement asserts Martin spoke first.

Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
And stop with the "Team Crump" stuff. This is about the State of Florida vs George Zimmerman.
Uhh...no. I will attribute whatever talking point a party makes to that party. If you need evidence of Crump pitching that particular one throughout the media, I'll be happy to provide...
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Old 23rd June 2012, 04:56 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Except he's on tape saying that he's right at the clubhouse, then seconds later that's where Trayvon "checks him out". That's why it's impossible he was parked there, but also why it's impossible that the "circling" happened at the T, as he claims in his walkthrough. For me, it's the way the walkthrough doesn't match the NEN that sinks him. He made up a narrative that helps him appear as though he wasn't following and only went to look for an address, but in doing so, he contradicts himself in such a grievous way that I don't see how he can explain himself later. And his scenario about Trayvon running behind the rows, then coming back, and THEN circling the car, is so detailed, that if he's making that up, it just devastates his credibility. And the NEN proves he's making that up. I don't see an out for the guy.
George never says he is near the clubhouse, it's Martin near the clubhouse when my timeline places him there

19:11:16 Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, ~~~~ the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.

19:12:00 Dispatcher: Okay—you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse…
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

19:12:33 Zimmerman: Ayup, he's coming to check me out.
That's at GZ's position
19:13:03 Zimmerman: Actually. You would go past the clubhouse.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 05:00 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Cylinder View Post
Your candidate theory used Zimmerman's initiation of the dialouge as evidence of his overzealousness. DeeDee's statement asserts Martin spoke first.
None of that matters to my theory. My theory is that George is lying about the only thing he said being "I don't have a problem" in response to Trayvon. George told quite a few lies, and I think his story has fallen apart even without DD at all. Just his version of events leading up to his meeting Trayvon is filled with inconsistencies and changing versions.

Once you get to that point, who spoke first is of no consequence. It's clear that George ran after Trayvon with the intent to not let him get away. That's where he will sink himself, as it should be.

Crump has nothing to do with this. Serino and his partner had his number.

By the way, did you listen to those tapes? Did they not give you any pause at all? I just do not think you listened to them, since you're still talking about who spoke first and Crump. I speculated a ways back that once we heard George's version it'd fall apart, and that's abundantly clear. Go ahead. Listen to:

  1. The NEN call.
  2. Serino's interrogation.
  3. George's walkthough.
And come back and tell me it holds up.

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Old 23rd June 2012, 05:02 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
George never says he is near the clubhouse, it's Martin near the clubhouse when my timeline places him there

19:11:16 Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, ~~~~ the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.

19:12:00 Dispatcher: Okay—you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse…
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

19:12:33 Zimmerman: Ayup, he's coming to check me out.
That's at GZ's position
19:13:03 Zimmerman: Actually. You would go past the clubhouse.
Ok, I see what you mean. Yeah, that would put him closer. It's also possible that this is where he parked and not at the T. Martin sees him again and takes off, and that is when he exits the vehicle and starts his foot chase. That would indeed explain why it took so long to get to the T.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 05:03 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
George never says he is near the clubhouse, it's Martin near the clubhouse when my timeline places him there.
In the walkthrough, Zimmerman also asserts he was parked much closer to the cut through "by the signs" then - for whatever reason - stops Serino farther away.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 05:25 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
By the way, did you listen to those tapes? Did they not give you any pause at all? I just do not think you listened to them, since you're still talking about who spoke first and Crump.
You cannot reasonably keep mis-stating the evidence and accuse me of ignorance of it. What's your theory? How well does it stand up?

I am in the process of digesting the interviews. I've yet to see any material inconsistencies. You guys are going off half-cocked.

Let's take the "check the body" claim. On one hand, we have Zimmerman claiming he checked Martin after the fatal gunshot and spread his arms out in an attmept to subdue him. A SPD officer claims the arms were under the body. For some of you guys, the course of action is to fill in the inconsistency with whatever fevered theory comes to mind. To you, it somehow shows that Zimmerman had to be lying thus [insert theory of crime minus any evidence]... That's not the way it works.

Another approach could be to look at the evidence. In this case, you'd find that at least one more witness saw Zimmerman "straddle" Martin after hearing a gunshot and talking to flashlight man. OK. How credible is she? Most of the witnesses to the aftermath saw flashlight man at that point.

I'll do a post later of Zimmerman's key claims and what independant evidence supports them. What I really need to know at this point is the timing of the 911 calls and the timing of DeeDee's calls to Martin.

Feel free at any time to discuss your theory of the crime. It's hard to keep up with a constant assertion of this might have happened, do the research to see what the evidence supports, then come back people who then claim that was only hypothetical.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 05:33 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Cylinder View Post
You cannot reasonably keep mis-stating the evidence and accuse me of ignorance of it. What's your theory? How well does it stand up?

I am in the process of digesting the interviews. I've yet to see any material inconsistencies. You guys are going off half-cocked.

Let's take the "check the body" claim. On one hand, we have Zimmerman claiming he checked Martin after the fatal gunshot and spread his arms out in an attmept to subdue him. A SPD officer claims the arms were under the body. For some of you guys, the course of action is to fill in the inconsistency with whatever fevered theory comes to mind. To you, it somehow shows that Zimmerman had to be lying thus [insert theory of crime minus any evidence]... That's not the way it works.

Another approach could be to look at the evidence. In this case, you'd find that at least one more witness saw Zimmerman "straddle" Martin after hearing a gunshot and talking to flashlight man. OK. How credible is she? Most of the witnesses to the aftermath saw flashlight man at that point.

I'll do a post later of Zimmerman's key claims and what independant evidence supports them. What I really need to know at this point is the timing of the 911 calls and the timing of DeeDee's calls to Martin.

Feel free at any time to discuss your theory of the crime. It's hard to keep up with a constant assertion of this might have happened, do the research to see what the evidence supports, then come back people who then claim that was only hypothetical.
The most glaring inconsistency is, of course, the claim that Trayvon went behind the T and then came back and circled his car. In the NEN call, that clearly happens somewhere else and cannot be reconciled. Listen to the NEN call. He says the closes address is 1111 Retreat View. Seconds later, he's being "circled" or "checked out". But he claims in his walkthrough that he was parked in the lot on Retreat View when he called but says the circling happened near the T. This is impossible and is clearly false. The second thing he lies about is returning to his truck after he claims he agreed with the NEN dispatcher. 84 seconds later, he's not past the T. He then claims he stopped on Retreat View on the other side, which contradicts what he just said. He also cannot explain how he got 25' south of the T, when he claims to have been hit and immediately fell down. How he "staggered" 25' south is a complete mystery to everyone, especially George. There are many more which we've already listed. This netbook has a tiny keyboard so I'll leave it to you to search what's already been posted. I also posted my theory on how it went down. I agree with Serino.

He chased, he caught up, he tried to detain, they fought, he shot, he lied.

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Old 23rd June 2012, 06:41 PM   #108
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Another glaring lie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4

At 4:40, he says he got out of the car because he "thought to get out and look for a street sign". Yet in the NEN call, you can clearly hear him running. He's out of breath and you hear the wind going against his phone. Then the dispatcher picks up on this and asks him if he's following and he says "yes". Yet in the walkthrough he claims he got out just to look for a street sign. This is a clear lie.

Next up, at the 7:00 mark, he says he told the dispatcher he'd meet him at his car. This is clearly false, since he tells the dispatcher "you know what, have them call my cell phone and I'll tell them where I'm at" AFTER saying he would meet them at his car. So again, his story is completely shaky.

Finally, check the time on how long it takes to get from Retreat View back to the T. It takes about 10 seconds. On the NEN call, it's 84 seconds from the time George says he stopped running to the time he hangs up. And in the end, does he ever give them an address from Retreat View? No, since that would have the cops show up on that street and not by his car. So in the end, his whole "I'm looking for a street sign" seems ridiculous.

Just compare his walkthrough to the NEN call. It's painful. I especially note his inability to explain the mechanism for how he got attacked in one place but ended up on the ground so far away. Does that look credible to anyone? Come on.

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Old 23rd June 2012, 07:18 PM   #109
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It's quite clear Zimmerman was lying and/or omitting details in order to exonerate himself from any wrongdoing. He's concocted a tale in which he did absolutely nothing wrong and was - for some unexplainable reason - violently attacked and nearly murdered by an unprovoked teenage boy walking home from the store.

That anyone would buy this fantasy - especially in light of his recent courtroom shenanigans - is unfathomable to me.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 08:16 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
The most glaring inconsistency is, of course, the claim that Trayvon went behind the T and then came back and circled his car. In the NEN call, that clearly happens somewhere else and cannot be reconciled. Listen to the NEN call. He says the closes address is 1111 Retreat View. Seconds later, he's being "circled" or "checked out". But he claims in his walkthrough that he was parked in the lot on Retreat View when he called but says the circling happened near the T. This is impossible and is clearly false. The second thing he lies about is returning to his truck after he claims he agreed with the NEN dispatcher. 84 seconds later, he's not past the T. He then claims he stopped on Retreat View on the other side, which contradicts what he just said. He also cannot explain how he got 25' south of the T, when he claims to have been hit and immediately fell down. How he "staggered" 25' south is a complete mystery to everyone, especially George. There are many more which we've already listed. This netbook has a tiny keyboard so I'll leave it to you to search what's already been posted. I also posted my theory on how it went down. I agree with Serino.

He chased, he caught up, he tried to detain, they fought, he shot, he lied.
OK new info. It appears I may have been mistaken at timing the beginning of George's NEN call at 19:11:12. According to http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-lineh...ees-testimony. (yeah I know, I know. but bear with the sauce for a minute) it was actually 19:09:34.

Now that doesn't change either your or my reconstruction timing of what happened during Martin's journey from 1440 RVC to the walkway tee, just places it 1'40" earlier.

This allows George time after the NEN call to return to his truck, Martin to retrurn and "circle the truck"

7:14:30 Zimmerman gets back to his SUV and is waiting for the police to arrive. Suddenly, there’s a knock at the window, it’s Trayvon.

“Why are you following me?”

“I’m not.”

Trayvon starts to walk away, then runs, between buildings

Zimmerman decides he wants to keep Martin in sight.

Martin leaps out of bushes, fight, "BANG" as before

Now the Zimmermistas at wagist seen to think this justifies George's SYG, but to my mind he is now Guilty Guilty.

OK he may not have lied about the circling, but he got out of his truck to follow Martin TWICE, denied following him, refused to identify himself as Captain of the Watch, despite two opportunities “Why are you following me?” "What's your problem?"

In contrast Martin attempted to disengage, twice, only to find George subsequently following him. Martin's SYG, fully justified.

(If that account is a true one)
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Old 23rd June 2012, 08:39 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post

It's the walkthrough that's impossible, and that happened last. On the NEN call, he's clearly at the clubhouse when he talked about Trayvon approaching his car. This is when he pulled ahead of Trayvon and Trayvon is on his way home. This all takes place in about 1 minute. But in the 29th interview, he's still saying it took place at the clubhouse, until it's pointed out to him how that doesn't make sense. The next time, he's moved it to the T and he says that Trayvon ran around the corner, came back again, back out onto the street, and then circled his car. This is his final version and it's impossible both in terms of timing and because it directly contradicts his NEN and earlier statements.
If that is true it's bad for Z. It goes from 2 locations to 1 with a clear motive for making that change.

That isn't just a normal memory problem scenario.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 09:03 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
OK new info. It appears I may have been mistaken at timing the beginning of George's NEN call at 19:11:12. According to http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-lineh...ees-testimony. (yeah I know, I know. but bear with the sauce for a minute) it was actually 19:09:34.

Now that doesn't change either your or my reconstruction timing of what happened during Martin's journey from 1440 RVC to the walkway tee, just places it 1'40" earlier.

This allows George time after the NEN call to return to his truck, Martin to retrurn and "circle the truck"

7:14:30 Zimmerman gets back to his SUV and is waiting for the police to arrive. Suddenly, there’s a knock at the window, it’s Trayvon.

“Why are you following me?”

“I’m not.”

Trayvon starts to walk away, then runs, between buildings

Zimmerman decides he wants to keep Martin in sight.

Martin leaps out of bushes, fight, "BANG" as before

Now the Zimmermistas at wagist seen to think this justifies George's SYG, but to my mind he is now Guilty Guilty.

OK he may not have lied about the circling, but he got out of his truck to follow Martin TWICE, denied following him, refused to identify himself as Captain of the Watch, despite two opportunities “Why are you following me?” "What's your problem?"

In contrast Martin attempted to disengage, twice, only to find George subsequently following him. Martin's SYG, fully justified.

(If that account is a true one)
Or...Trayvon led him into an ambush.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 09:03 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by sgtbaker View Post
I watched the walkthrough, when it was released on the news, and I watched it again, when it was linked here, because the news started talking over the video, at the point where Zimmerman was explaining how he was holding Trayvons hands out. I listened to the audio, again, last night. The order of the interviews appears to be, one period of questioning the night of the incident, a few hours later (now after midnight dated 2-27) another interview, then the walk through, the following morning. By the time we get to the walk through, I can already see blatant spots where he is not sure of the actual order of events such as the 911 conversation. When they are standing at the opposite street, he recalls part of the conversation that didn't happen, and then starts confabulating them with things that did happen. Then he realizes, "No, I was standing over there when the operator said this." You can see his memory is really starting to fail but he appears to be trying to keep things in order but no matter how hard an individual tries, they are going to fail at remembering every detail. Our brains will fill in that detail, subconsciously, to maintain the story. It is very possible that he does not remember exactly where
Trayvon approached the car. We do know, though, that there was a point that Trayvon approached the car because he was narrating it. Of all things, what do you think his reason is for lying about that?

Seriously, have you ever watched Randi's videos proving how bad our memory is when talking to a pscychic? There was one where he had a woman get a psychic reading. She was supposed to tell the psychic every time she got something wrong. Then he listens to the recording and counts how many times they psychic got something wrong. The woman's answer was in the low tens. James Randi said he counted something in the 40's guesses the psychic got wrong. We do not have perfect memories. Our brains don't always remember things in the correct order.
I'm glad you're taking the time to post because it's posts like this that are the only thing left making this thread remotely interesting.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 09:04 PM   #114
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I AGREE


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Old 23rd June 2012, 09:17 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Q: Did you pursue this kid? Did you want to catch him?

A: No (chuckles)
Which is exactly how a person might react to someone saying that if they didn't want to catch him.

Quote:
Anyone believe that? After saying "*********** punks" who "******** always get away", "****, he's running", "are you following him? Yeah", he says no, he didn't want to catch him?
I don't know if I believe it, but I find nothing unbelievable about it.
Quote:
This guy is toast.
You're over the top hated of this guy has rendered you incapable of any type of rational analysis of anything. You see lies EVERYWHERE. Just as you knew you would before you ever saw the evidence.

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Old 23rd June 2012, 09:22 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Cylinder View Post
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I AGREE


Looks like they took the original media narrative and reenacted it. If it happened that way it should be first degree murder. I guess gz just wanted to call the police before he murdered him.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 09:22 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by bynmdsue View Post
Or...Trayvon led him into an ambush.
Hmmm ham bush!
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Old 23rd June 2012, 09:25 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic View Post
Which is exactly how a person might react to someone saying that if they didn't want to catch him.


I don't know if I believe it, but I find nothing unbelievable about it.

You're over the top hated of this guy has rendered you incapable of any type of rational analysis of anything. You see lies EVERYWHERE. Just as you knew you would before you ever saw the evidence.
Personal attacks are all you have? It used to be we had to wait to hear George's account. We could speculate that he told a coherent tale and talk about watermelon lean. Now we have his words, and I've pointed out to everyone how implausible his story is. The detectives clearly saw right through him and didnt buy his story either. Now he will have to account for what he did. Yep, I'm enjoying this part.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 09:31 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
OK new info. It appears I may have been mistaken at timing the beginning of George's NEN call at 19:11:12. According to http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-lineh...ees-testimony. (yeah I know, I know. but bear with the sauce for a minute) it was actually 19:09:34.

Now that doesn't change either your or my reconstruction timing of what happened during Martin's journey from 1440 RVC to the walkway tee, just places it 1'40" earlier.

This allows George time after the NEN call to return to his truck, Martin to retrurn and "circle the truck"

7:14:30 Zimmerman gets back to his SUV and is waiting for the police to arrive. Suddenly, there’s a knock at the window, it’s Trayvon.

“Why are you following me?”

“I’m not.”

Trayvon starts to walk away, then runs, between buildings

Zimmerman decides he wants to keep Martin in sight.

Martin leaps out of bushes, fight, "BANG" as before

Now the Zimmermistas at wagist seen to think this justifies George's SYG, but to my mind he is now Guilty Guilty.

OK he may not have lied about the circling, but he got out of his truck to follow Martin TWICE, denied following him, refused to identify himself as Captain of the Watch, despite two opportunities “Why are you following me?” "What's your problem?"

In contrast Martin attempted to disengage, twice, only to find George subsequently following him. Martin's SYG, fully justified.

(If that account is a true one)
But this speculation is old, from before we got his own words to match against the NEN call. We can tell that the circling didn't happen the way he says because the timing doesn't match. Serino keeps asking him "where are you here?" because he wants to tie him down. I'll read this link but my contention is that even without DD his story doesn't hold up.

Last edited by Unabogie; 23rd June 2012 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 09:36 PM   #120
johnny karate
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Originally Posted by bynmdsue View Post
Or...Trayvon led him into an ambush.
Yeah, that's what happened. The kid without a violent history decided to wait in ambush and murder Zimmerman... for some reason.

That's much more plausible than a proven liar telling lies to cover his ass.
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