Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Unabogie]

Originally Posted by Unabogie

But this speculation is old, from before we got his own words to match against the NEN call. We can tell that the circling didn't happen the way he says because the timing doesn't match. Serious keeps asking him "where are you here?" because he wants to tie him down. I'll read this link but my contention is that even without DD his story doesn't hold up.

Ok, read it. Yeah, they have George's story all wrong. That site is not accurate. Now that we have his actual story, we can look back and discount the early speculation.

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by Unabogie

Personal attacks are all you have?

Pretty much. From this point forward, some people are going to offer nothing more than bile and bare assertions. Along the way, they'll whine about the thread being uninteresting and rack up yellow cards because of their inability to have a grown-up discussion.

I have repeatedly stated that I would form my opinion based on the facts, and if those facts pointed to Zimmerman being innocent, then so be it. But as the tide is turning against Zimmerman, it's enjoyable to watch how many people are committed to him being exonerated regardless of the truth.

[Unabogie]

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Pretty much. From this point forward, some people are going to offer nothing more than bile and bare assertions. Along the way, they'll whine about the thread being uninteresting and rack up yellow cards because of their inability to have a grown-up discussion.

I have repeatedly stated that I would form my opinion based on the facts, and if those facts pointed to Zimmerman being innocent, then so be it. But as the tide is turning against Zimmerman, it's enjoyable to watch how many people are committed to him being exonerated regardless of the truth.

Yeah, he really talked a lot. It's interesting to me to see a case where so much info is public. Getting his story and hearing his interrogation removes a huge layer of mystery. People should spend their time listening to each of those interviews. I'm not surprised at all that he was charged and the folks accusing Corey of some sort of malfeasance look pretty foolish right now.

[Mumbles]

Originally Posted by Noztradamus

George never says he is near the clubhouse, it's Martin near the clubhouse when my timeline places him there

19:11:16 Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, ~~~~ the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.

19:12:00 Dispatcher: Okay—you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse…
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

19:12:33 Zimmerman: Ayup, he's coming to check me out.
That's at GZ's position
19:13:03 Zimmerman: Actually. You would go past the clubhouse.

Also, although you can hear his door open, the "you're doing something wrong" car jingle turn on, and then him close his door, we never hear his engine accelerate in his recording. My guess is that Zimmerman was driving up Twin Trees, spotted Martin, and pulled over on the east-west portion of the street. Although he thinks Martin is coming to "check [him] out", Martin was really just walking home. And when Martin runs, Zimmerman has to turn around to get a flashlight, get his keys, open his door, and so forth, and this is why he has no idea where Martin went once he finally gets out of his car.

I mean, if he's facing his car at the dog path, and sees Trayvon slip between the houses, come back, and then run off again, how on earth did he lose sight of him? His headlights should let him see exactly whic direction Martn goes.

And about the dispatcher asking for an address, that only happens after Zimmerman got out of his car.

[Mumbles]

Originally Posted by sgtbaker

Seriously, have you ever watched Randi's videos proving how bad our memory is when talking to a pscychic? There was one where he had a woman get a psychic reading. She was supposed to tell the psychic every time she got something wrong. Then he listens to the recording and counts how many times they psychic got something wrong. The woman's answer was in the low tens. James Randi said he counted something in the 40's guesses the psychic got wrong. We do not have perfect memories. Our brains don't always remember things in the correct order.

The problem is, virtually everything he misremembered just somehow makes him look like an innocent guy.

Oh, he was concerned because Martin was on someone's lawn. Oh, he was parked at the clubhouse. Oh, he only moved his car because the operator told him to. Oh, he was more worried because Martin reappeared and circled his car and then ran off again. Oh, he only got out to look for an address, because the operator insisted on having one. Zimmerman was just an innocent guy who was attacked by a crazed, vicious teenager because he got bad instructions from dispatch.

Yeah right. He was never parked at the clubhouse, so he never saw Martin just standing on a lawn. He didn't move his car, and the operator never asked him to. Martin never re-emerged to circle his car and then run back. And really, if Martin were crazy and violent, he would have started beating on Zimmerman's window and pulling on his door handle window, not do some stupid stalker dance and run off again. And the operator only asked him what address he was parked at after Zimmerman started running after Martin.

But we're supposed to believe that Martin waited in a shadow or behind some knee-high bushes, waited until after seeing Zimmerman pass by twice, and suddenly went into a violent, movie dialogue spouting rampage? And this despite the fact that the girl Martin was on the phone heard something totally different, and that another witness heard "talking, then shouting, and then fighting"?

[OnlyTellsTruths]

Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic

I'm glad you're taking the time to post because it's posts like this that are the only thing left making this thread remotely interesting.

So you agree that changing 2 locations to 1 can happen just in a normal memory lapse??

[Amazer]

Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths

So you agree that changing 2 locations to 1 can happen just in a normal memory lapse??

Sure it can.... if you are mindlessly committed to GZ being innocent no matter what.

[crimresearch]

Quote:

refused to identify himself as Captain of the Watch,

[crimresearch]

Originally Posted by Amazer

Sure it can.... if you are mindlessly committed to GZ being innocent no matter what.

So when you make bizarre assertions that bear no resemblance to reality, and run away when asked to explain, that isn't 'mindless'?

[Dcdrac]

Originally Posted by Rare Truth

All those molehills of inconsistencies, compounded, turn into a mountain of lies.

After to listening to those tapes its clear to me that GZ is acting like a child caught stealing swees and trying to get off the hook.


I stand by the mpressin I formed at the begining not murder but manslaughter casuded by GZ's reckless behaviour.

His amply proven lying and convulations are not helping him at all if anything they are making him look a right dodgy geezer.

[OnlyTellsTruths]

Originally Posted by crimresearch

So when you make bizarre assertions that bear no resemblance to reality, and run away when asked to explain, that isn't 'mindless'?

I'm curious crimresearch, did you listen to the new tapes??

[Noztradamus]

Originally Posted by Mumbles

Also, although you can hear his door open, the "you're doing something wrong" car jingle turn on, and then him close his door, we never hear his engine accelerate in his recording. My guess is that Zimmerman was driving up Twin Trees, spotted Martin, and pulled over on the east-west portion of the street. Although he thinks Martin is coming to "check [him] out", Martin was really just walking home. And when Martin runs, Zimmerman has to turn around to get a flashlight, get his keys, open his door, and so forth, and this is why he has no idea where Martin went once he finally gets out of his car.

I mean, if he's facing his car at the dog path, and sees Trayvon slip between the houses, come back, and then run off again, how on earth did he lose sight of him? His headlights should let him see exactly whic direction Martn goes.

And about the dispatcher asking for an address, that only happens after Zimmerman got out of his car.

I don't think George was on Twin Trees before following Martin
1. Twin Trees is not on the way to anywhere
2. George is not familair with it
3. He claims his suspicions were raises seeing Martin by Frank Taffe's house, That's on RVC. I don't think George is stupid enough to lie about being on RVC if he wasn't.

But as George gets out of his car on Twin Trees only 2 minutes after calling the NEN, it couldn't have started where he said, "parked a few feet away" hrom Frank Taffe's house. (Apart from the absence of "car starting vroom vroom" noises on the NEN tape)

But I agree, he headlights could not have been pointing towards the walkway T. he must have turned his truck around

[quadraginta]

Originally Posted by Noztradamus

I don't think George was on Twin Trees before following Martin
1. Twin Trees is not on the way to anywhere
2. George is not familair with it
3. He claims his suspicions were raises seeing Martin by Frank Taffe's house, That's on RVC. I don't think George is stupid enough to lie about being on RVC if he wasn't.

But as George gets out of his car on Twin Trees only 2 minutes after calling the NEN, it couldn't have started where he said, "parked a few feet away" hrom Frank Taffe's house. (Apart from the absence of "car starting vroom vroom" noises on the NEN tape)

But I agree, he headlights could not have been pointing towards the walkway T. he must have turned his truck around

I have a problem with item #2 on your list.

How could George not be familiar with Twin Trees? Aside from the perimeter road there are only two streets in the apartment complex. No "dead ends", no cul de sacs, no little internal loop roads. The average mall these days is more complicated.

And this is a dude who wants to run the Neighborhood Watch.

Now, I think that most of us can agree that Z isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but to be unfamiliar with either of the only two little, bitty streets inside the loop in that development isn't much of a challenge. Both of them together barely offer 600 yds. of street to be familiar with.

[Dcdrac]

Originally Posted by quadraginta

I have a problem with item #2 on your list.

How could George not be familiar with Twin Trees? Aside from the perimeter road there are only two streets in the apartment complex. No "dead ends", no cul de sacs, no little internal loop roads. The average mall these days is more complicated.

And this is a dude who wants to run the Neighborhood Watch.

Now, I think that most of us can agree that Z isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but to be unfamiliar with either of the only two little, bitty streets inside the loop in that development isn't much of a challenge. Both of them together barely offer 600 yds. of street to be familiar with.

At best the man was a bumbling well intentioned wannabe police officer amatuer the worst case scenario for a Neighbourhood Watch operative.

At worst he was a self appointed bumbling wannabe Dirty Harry

Either way his actions certainly led to a tragedy.

In this thread i beleive it has been forgotten who the victim is here

Traynor Martin

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by Noztradamus

Hmmm ham bush!

Bush whack

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by Amazer

Sure it can.... if you are mindlessly committed to GZ being innocent no matter what.

Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths

So you agree that changing 2 locations to 1 can happen just in a normal memory lapse??

My memory is quite faulty.

[KatieG]

Originally Posted by Dcdrac

At best the man was a bumbling well intentioned wannabe police officer amatuer the worst case scenario for a Neighbourhood Watch operative.

At worst he was a self appointed bumbling wannabe Dirty Harry

Either way his actions certainly led to a tragedy.

In this thread i beleive it has been forgotten who the victim is here

Traynor Martin

Errr.....Trayvon Martin.

[quadraginta]

Originally Posted by KatieG

Errr.....Trayvon Martin.

Ouch!

[Unabogie]

Originally Posted by quadraginta

I have a problem with item #2 on your list.

How could George not be familiar with Twin Trees? Aside from the perimeter road there are only two streets in the apartment complex. No "dead ends", no cul de sacs, no little internal loop roads. The average mall these days is more complicated.

And this is a dude who wants to run the Neighborhood Watch.

Now, I think that most of us can agree that Z isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but to be unfamiliar with either of the only two little, bitty streets inside the loop in that development isn't much of a challenge. Both of them together barely offer 600 yds. of street to be familiar with.

George also says he walks his dog there, so that's evidence he knows that street.

[bynmdsue]

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Yeah, that's what happened. The kid without a violent history decided to wait in ambush and murder Zimmerman... for some reason.

That's much more plausible than a proven liar telling lies to cover his ass.

Go back and reread Noztradamus' post in #110

Quote:

Now that doesn't change either your or my reconstruction timing of what happened during Martin's journey from 1440 RVC to the walkway tee, just places it 1'40" earlier.

This allows George time after the NEN call to return to his truck, Martin to retrurn and "circle the truck"

7:14:30 Zimmerman gets back to his SUV and is waiting for the police to arrive. Suddenly, there’s a knock at the window, it’s Trayvon.

“Why are you following me?”

“I’m not.”

Trayvon starts to walk away, then runs, between buildings

Zimmerman decides he wants to keep Martin in sight.

Martin leaps out of bushes, fight, "BANG" as before

GZ has returned to his vehicle and is waiting for the police when TM approaches, knocks on the window and runs off and lays in wait for GZ to follow. That's an ambush.

[Dcdrac]

yes sorry Trayvon Martin knew I should have had that 2nd mug of coffee....

[Unabogie]

Originally Posted by bynmdsue

Go back and reread Noztradamus' post in #110

GZ has returned to his vehicle and is waiting for the police when TM approaches, knocks on the window and runs off and lays in wait for GZ to follow. That's an ambush.

You're very ignorant of the facts, then. That never happened. Unless you're saying George is lying and leaving it out?

[quadraginta]

Originally Posted by bynmdsue

Go back and reread Noztradamus' post in #110

GZ has returned to his vehicle and is waiting for the police when TM approaches, knocks on the window and runs off and lays in wait for GZ to follow. That's an ambush.

It would be if it happened that way.

Even if it did happen that way, though, now you've got Z, who has already been admonished not to follow and acknowledged that caution, who knows (as NW superhero captain) that not only is he not supposed to pursue, but he isn't supposed to be armed and do it, getting out of his vehicle again, with his gun, and following someone he now believes is hostile instead of waiting for the cops who are minutes away. That's an idiot.

Or someone looking for a confrontation.

If he's an idiot then Manslaughter is probably fair.

If he went looking for trouble, as you seem to be suggesting, then there's good reason to contemplate Murder II.

I don't think your scenario is in Z's best interest.

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Originally Posted by Unabogie

Personal attacks are all you have?

Pointing out your irrationality is not a "personal attack".

Quote:

It used to be we had to wait to hear George's account. We could speculate that he told a coherent tale and talk about watermelon lean. Now we have his words, and I've pointed out to everyone how implausible his story is.

You've pointed out to everyone that you think his story is implausible. Since you find every aspect of it implausible including parts that are not remotely suspicious, that amounts to about 0.

Quote:

The detectives clearly saw right through him and didnt buy his story either. Now he will have to account for what he did. Yep, I'm enjoying this part.

Once again you clearly hear what you want to hear, since it would appear that the police had different opinions on the matter. Its humorous that you've convinced yourself thepolice "saw right through him" because they followed normal investigative techniques. Its also humorous that suddenly serino is your hero whereas previously the police were incompetent.

[Unabogie]

Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic

Pointing out your irrationality is not a "personal attack".

You've pointed out to everyone that ^you think his story is implausible. Since you find every aspect of it implausible including parts that are not remotely suspicious, that amounts to about 0.

Once again you clearly hear what you want to hear, since it would appear that the police had different opinions on the matter. Its humorous that you've convinced yourself thepolice "saw right through him" because they followed normal investigative techniques. Its also humorous that suddenly serino is your hero whereas previously the police were incompetent.

Yep.

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths

So you agree that changing 2 locations to 1 can happen just in a normal memory lapse??

I think you are really asking two different questions. If the question is can a person that is telling the truth experience such a lapse, the incontrovertible answer is yes. As has been explained, that's the way memory works, and we have a mountain of evidence to know that. If you are asking if I think he is telling the truth about all aspects of the encounter, I don't know.

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Originally Posted by Unabogie

Yep.

Boy, you really proved me wrong there by highlighting the word you. Brilliant and insightful post!

[Unabogie]

Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic

Boy, you really proved me wrong there by highlighting the word you. Brilliant and insightful post!

Same to you.

[sgtbaker]

Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths

So you agree that changing 2 locations to 1 can happen just in a normal memory lapse??

I will say yes, that is very likely.

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Originally Posted by Amazer

If you take into account the little rant of GZ about 'them always getting away', the fact that GZ left the car then I don't think it's a stretch to assume that GZ was the aggressor.

Originally Posted by Amazer

Sure it can.... if you are mindlessly committed to GZ being innocent no matter what.

Hmm...I'm not the one who seems to think we should "assume" someone was the aggressor because it's "not a stretch". Likewise, not surprisingly, you miss the huge distinction between believing the evidence needs to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt versus your invention of "mindlessly committed to gz being innocent no matter what". I think the guy could be lying, show us the evidence andvthe contradictions. Wild unprovable theories driven by hatred of gz need not apply.

[sgtbaker]

Originally Posted by Unabogie

George also says he walks his dog there, so that's evidence he knows that street.

That's evidence that he walks his dog there. My community is set up like this; there is a main road that is the shape of a circle. Four mini-subdivisions surround the circle, each on a different road. I use that circle road, every single day to drive out of my neighborhood. For a change of scenery, I walk down to the circle to run, because it is exactly a quarter mile. I know the name of one road, the one I live on. I hope I am never in a situation where I would have to recall the names of the other roads because, well, I've never bothered to look at the road signs.

[TheL8Elvis]

Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths

Note that you say "going to the racetrack" is the activity instead of running in the race! That's not gonna just squeak through without people noticing!

I'll make this simple.

The specific activity is a track&field sprint race between 10 runners.

Those 10 runners are "physically involved" in that specific activity during the race.

Everyone else, including the people in the stands, everyone else, is not physically involved in that specific activity.

Do you agree with that or not?

If not, please elaborate.

I do agree. Therefor, George was not involved with the specific activity of acting suspicious and wandering about like TM. He was engaged in a different activity, being the eyes and ears of the police.

See, when you make the specific 'physical activities' arbitrary, it's easy to make the point whichever way you want.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by sgtbaker

Seriously, have you ever watched Randi's videos proving how bad our memory is when talking to a pscychic? There was one where he had a woman get a psychic reading. She was supposed to tell the psychic every time she got something wrong. Then he listens to the recording and counts how many times they psychic got something wrong. The woman's answer was in the low tens. James Randi said he counted something in the 40's guesses the psychic got wrong. We do not have perfect memories. Our brains don't always remember things in the correct order.

And that's just it, the posters here decrying the "inconsistencies" in Zimmerman's story are harping on minor details that are well within the range of honest mistakes due to fallible memory. There's nothing there as far as I can tell that shows any material inconsistencies.

Ask anyone to report an experience several times over several days, and you will get different variations with each telling, it's just the way memory works.

[TheL8Elvis]

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

GZ clearly states he was telling the "John" to help, and that matches exactly with "Johns" initial witness statement. Someone care to explain that away ?

For all the inconsistencies people are pointing out, I would like to focus on at least once consistent element ... will someone help me understand what the scenario was where:

TM was screaming in fear the entire time, as his mother and father have claimed.

AND

GZ tells the story of how he is under TM, and pleads to "John" to help, which agrees with what "Johns" initial witness statement said.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by Dcdrac

At best the man was a bumbling well intentioned wannabe police officer amatuer the worst case scenario for a Neighbourhood Watch operative.

At worst he was a self appointed bumbling wannabe Dirty Harry

Either way his actions certainly led to a tragedy.

In this thread i beleive it has been forgotten who the victim is here

Traynor Martin

You rail against Zimmerman for not knowing the streets in his community and find that as evidence to convict him of homicide, yet here we are hundreds of pages into this thread and you can't even get Trayvon Martin's name correct.

Memory is a funny thing, eh?

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by sgtbaker

I will say yes, that is very likely.

Really? So when faced with inconsistencies in the testimony of an accused murderer we know is dishonest, the most likely scenario is that those inconsistencies are due to innocent lapses in memory?

February 26th NEN call:

Quote:

Dispatcher: Are you following him.

Zimmerman: Yeah.

February 29th interview with Investigator Serino:

Quote:

Zimmerman: I wasn't following him. I was just going in the same direction he was.

How about that one? Just another perfectly innocent memory lapse?

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Noztradamus

.... 19:11:16 Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, ~~~~ the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.

19:12:00 Dispatcher: Okay—you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse…

Just an observation here: Note that these events occurred just after 7 p.m. on a Sunday. In most areas, that's a time when a lot of people are on the streets: They're coming home from whatever they did during the day, going shopping (like GZ himself), visiting friends, going out for the evening, etc., etc. Does anybody think it says a lot -- and nothing good -- about GZ's state of mind that he felt compelled to call the police just because he saw one black teen-ager walking down the street at 7 p.m.? This was a suburban townhouse development, not a farm road in Idaho. Why wouldn't people be walking around? I would be willing to cut GZ some slack if he saw somebody lurking in his own backyard at 3 a.m. But it really sounds like GZ was hunting for trouble with no good reason.

[Unabogie]

Originally Posted by sgtbaker

I will say yes, that is very likely.

This I find problematic and I'm concerned you're rationalizing this away.

Let me first touch on the other comment about him walking his dog:

Yes, I agree that it's plausible he didn't know his streets. While walking his dog and being the NW person should make that less likely, he shows he's not good with directions, so I'll grant you he could have been unsure about the address. Where I think he is lying is where he uses that as his reason for exiting the car "just to look for a street sign". In the NEN he says he's following Trayvon. And you can clearly hear him running. When he later claims he wasn''t following him and was only looking for a street sign, it's not plausible. And it isn't an innocent memory lapse since it's clearly self serving and affects his culpability.

On the issue of the "circling", there is no innocent explanation. In the NEN call, the only close contact he has with Trayvon is within about 15 seconds of the start of the call. That means one of two things:

1. He parked at the clubhouse as he says in the walkthrough and Trayvon was merely walking past the car on his way home.
2. He never parked at the clubhouse at all and made that up.

For Trayvon to have walked past the T, come back out onto the street in order to circle the car, George would have had to have started the call near the T. He clearly says this isn't how it happens and if it did, it drastically changes the nature of events.


Therefore, I think this proves the circling at the T, and Trayvon coming back out onto the street from behind the row houses, never happened. I think there is ample evidence that this is impossible and therefore George made it up. If he made up something as inflammatory as Trayvon circling his car, and included such detail as how he turned the corner, but came back out to the street while George waiting with his windows rolled up, in fear, is this defensible?

ETA: I think the most reasonable choice is option #1 above. Trayvon really did walk past his car with his hands in his waistband, holding his drink. This is just a demonstration of George's bad judgment, but it fits the facts. I think he added the part about circling his car to embellish his tale, and unfortunately for him, this embellishment is easily discredited, which is why I keep coming back it as one of the worst of his lies.

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic

... the evidence needs to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt...

Since this has become the new favorite meme of the Zimmerman fans, I'd like to point out that at this time and in this setting it's a stupid standard.

First of all, I don't recall seeing anyone assert Zimmerman is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of murder, and should therefore be convicted. What seems to be the consensus is the belief that he will be convicted or plead down to manslaughter based on an interpretation of the evidence thus far not being favorable to him.

Secondly, determining "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt" is a legal standard that applies to a court of law after all the evidence has been presented and the prosecution has made their case. We have yet to see all the evidence or hear the prosecution's case, so it's kind of silly to demand that rigid legal standard be applied now.

Furthermore, this is not a jury room in which we are deliberating the case. This is a discussion forum in which we casually express our opinions. Some of us think Zimmerman is guilty of a crime. Whether he is eventually convicted of that crime is a whole other matter, but that has no bearing on this discussion here and now.

The evidence may turn out to be insufficient to prove guilt of any crime beyond a reasonable doubt, or the prosecution may fail to successfully make their case. But that won't necessarily mean Zimmerman is innocent (unless anyone here actually thinks O.J. didn't do it). And his guilt or innocence as a matter of fact rather than a matter of law is a perfectly valid issue to discuss.

[Unabogie]

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

For all the inconsistencies people are pointing out, I would like to focus on at least once consistent element ... will someone help me understand what the scenario was where:

TM was screaming in fear the entire time, as his mother and father have claimed.

AND

GZ tells the story of how he is under TM, and pleads to "John" to help, which agrees with what "Johns" initial witness statement said.

Maybe they were both yelling? I told you, in my scenario, George is attempting his version of a citizen's arrest. Trayvon may have punched him, and he felt justified in taking Trayvvon down. This would explain why the scene had moved 25' south from the T. So George was yelling for help, but not because he was being pummelled. He may have been telling the truth about begging for help subduing Trayvon, only that happened before the shooting, not after. Isn't that plausible? Trayvon was yelling for his own reasons, since he was being manhandled by this "creepy", "angry" guy for no reason. At this point, don't they both have reason to scream? Maybe they were.