Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case - Page 9

Rare Truth · 25th June 2012, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

I don't understand why you are having a problem following this. You made a claim. I asked you to back it up. More than once.

Your response, in part, was:

So I posted 12698 and put you on ignore. How is that hard to follow ?

I took you off ignore this morning, and am still waiting for you to provide a cite that states the cartridge was found under the body.
You haven't.

I posted two pictures, one of which you posted to demonstrate GZ story was inaccurate and asked you which one best describes what you think happened.
Again, you didn't answer.

So you asked me to back up evidence of Z's "contradictory statements to police the night of the shooting is part of the reason why the lead homicide detective found probable cause to charge him in the first place. "

more than once...? I can't find anything more than that one request, which at the time seemed ludicrous to me, given we KNEW at the time Serino made a capias request, and we had been discussing ad infinitum the many conflicts we KNEW at that point so far....but let's say you did --

you wanted me to back up THIS:contradictory statements to police the night of the shooting is part of the reason why the lead homicide detective found probable cause to charge him in the first place.

and then one minute later you put me on ignore? OOOOOOOOOOOkay. lol

As for your second demand for back up. I assumed you had read the report.
That's a given. Not my fault you missed it.

Nor that you missed the reply TO YOU, just a few minutes ago, from Cylinder, on that matter - which included the portion of the detective's report. Guess you missed that as well.

Quote:

Quote:
After a visual search of the area failed to turn up the cartridge, I got the metal detector and began to scan the area where the victim had lain. I did one sweep of the area with negative results and then reset the sensitivity of the metal detector. As I started again I heard a strong tone and looked in the area. I did not see anything so I marked the area and instructed CST smith to check the area again visually and I moved on. Before I got to the end of the sweep CST Smith told me she had found [the] casing just inches from where I had placed the marker.

Last point: You're false dichotomy challenge. Which picture most closely resembles Z's statement?

triforcharity · 25th June 2012, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

That works for me, or close enough. A 'savage beating' is in the eye of the beholder.
If things went as you described, it is as has been claimed numerous times - an unlucky combination of events gone terribly wrong that ended in the unfortunate death of a young man.

(I know you've got me on ignore, but.....)

If someone punches another person 30 times, including 3 times directly to the face, slams their head into the concrete numerous times, and tries to smother them, I would consider that savage, as would just about any ration person.....

-------------------------------------------------

Since I haven't really followed this thread since GZ's bond was revoked due to his lying (Which, as I predicted in the old thread would happen), does anyone have a link to GZ's claim of being punched 30 times? I'd like to see that. (Especially considering my position that his injuries do not add up to what he claims)

Also, any pictures that show GZ's injuries, or reports from SFD WRT: GZ's injuries would be cool too.

Cheers!

LTC8K6 · 25th June 2012, 10:19 AM

http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_...ble%20Bond.pdf

"Mr. Zimmerman has no criminal convictions..."

TheL8Elvis · 25th June 2012, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Bob001

I think we all get that GZ had the sense not to call the cops and say "I see black people!" What he did do is see black people and conclude that they were suspicious. He saw TM walking down the street at 7 p.m., and told police that he was "a suspicious guy... looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs .... just walking around and looking about." It would be interesting to know how many, if any, of GZ's calls resulted in arrests, or even any direct contacts between police and GZ's "suspects." And if it was as crime-ridden as you say, it sounds like the Neighborhood Watch wasn't very effective. It wouldn't have cost much to install some cameras at the community access points, or even locked gates with passcard access.

And if GZ wasn't paying rent to somebody who was not the owner, was he paying it to somebody who was? Or did he expect a free ride?

He saw TM in the side yard, not 'walking down the street'.

402 calls sounds crime ridden. And the neighborhood watch was just recently established, we have no information on its efficacy.

They have cameras. They have gates.

Your post is very ignorant of the facts.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/1...-habitual.html
The answer may lie in police records, which show that 50 suspicious-person reports were called in to police in the past year at Twin Lakes. There were eight burglaries, nine thefts and one other shooting in the year prior to Trayvon’s death.

In all, police had been called to the 260-unit complex 402 times from Jan. 1, 2011 to Feb. 26, 2012.

Rare Truth · 25th June 2012, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by triforcharity

(I know you've got me on ignore, but.....)

If someone punches another person 30 times, including 3 times directly to the face, slams their head into the concrete numerous times, and tries to smother them, I would consider that savage, as would just about any ration person.....

-------------------------------------------------

Since I haven't really followed this thread since GZ's bond was revoked due to his lying (Which, as I predicted in the old thread would happen), does anyone have a link to GZ's claim of being punched 30 times? I'd like to see that. (Especially considering my position that his injuries do not add up to what he claims)

Also, any pictures that show GZ's injuries, or reports from SFD WRT: GZ's injuries would be cool too.

Cheers!

Here's the full frontal below-head a few hours after the brutal beat down:

Rare Truth · 25th June 2012, 10:25 AM

Here's the broken and traumatized punched punched punched nose:

I'll try and find the cite for the 30 X. It was in one of Serino's interviews.

triforcharity · 25th June 2012, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_...ble%20Bond.pdf

"Mr. Zimmerman has no criminal convictions..."

Technically, according to the Florida Courts, that is accurate.

But, we all know he's had issues with the law before...

Rare Truth · 25th June 2012, 10:27 AM

Another:

Rare Truth · 25th June 2012, 10:28 AM

And the back of the head:

TheL8Elvis · 25th June 2012, 10:32 AM

Yes, before we had GZ statements I wanted you to provide evidence that you knew they charged him because of contradictory statements. I still don't see materially contradictory statements that support murder 2.

Originally Posted by Rare Truth

[...]
and then one minute later you put me on ignore? OOOOOOOOOOOkay. lol

I put you on after you told me you weren't going to back up your claims. I posted the quote from you. Really, it's not hard to follow.

Originally Posted by Rare Truth

As for your second demand for back up. I assumed you had read the report.

Since I quoted it in my response, that would be a good assumption.

Originally Posted by Rare Truth

That's a given. Not my fault you missed it.

I missed it ... but I quoted the exact same part as you.

Originally Posted by Rare Truth

Nor that you missed the reply TO YOU, just a few minutes ago, from Cylinder, on that matter - which included the portion of the detective's report. Guess you missed that as well.

Highlight the part that demonstrates the cartridge was underneath the body, please:

After a visual search of the area failed to turn up the cartridge, I got the metal detector and began to scan the area where the victim had lain. I did one sweep of the area with negative results and then reset the sensitivity of the metal detector. As I started again I heard a strong tone and looked in the area. I did not see anything so I marked the area and instructed CST smith to check the area again visually and I moved on. Before I got to the end of the sweep CST Smith told me she had found [the] casing just inches from where I had placed the marker.

Originally Posted by Rare Truth

Last point: You're false dichotomy challenge. Which picture most closely resembles Z's statement?

The first picture is how it happened.

You really like avoiding answering. You don't believe the first picture is accurate. So....

If you don't believe the second picture is accurate, please, don't feel like you have only two options. Tell us what position you think they were in when GZ shot TM.

bookworm · 25th June 2012, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

There was at least one witness who saw George walking away with his hands on his head. And I don't know where you established that he had less than one minute in order to do this, but it would take only ten seconds.

He looks down, sees the people around him, it's dark, he says "oh crap, what did I just do?" and panics and marks up his own face with his hands.

Is there proof of that? No, of course not. But it would explain the blood not being anywhere on Trayvon. Is it impossible? No. Would George lie? I think we've established pretty well that he will. So can this be discounted? No. Can it be considered truth? No.

But it's not a CT, since it's just about whether or no an admitted killer and known liar would quickly scratch his own head after killing someone to embellish his own narrative. You know, like claiming he never followed the kid, or claiming unbelievable dialogue, etc, etc.

I remember seeing police photos of Zimmerman showing his hands. Was there blood under the fingernails? If not, I think we can eliminate the scratching his own head.

Rare Truth · 25th June 2012, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

He saw TM in the side yard, not 'walking down the street'.

402 calls sounds crime ridden. And the neighborhood watch was just recently established, we have no information on its efficacy.

They have cameras. They have gates.

Your post is very ignorant of the facts.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/1...-habitual.html
The answer may lie in police records, which show that 50 suspicious-person reports were called in to police in the past year at Twin Lakes. There were eight burglaries, nine thefts and one other shooting in the year prior to Trayvon’s death.

In all, police had been called to the 260-unit complex 402 times from Jan. 1, 2011 to Feb. 26, 2012.

Makes you wonder why in this Breaking News report that was LIVE on the scene on the 8 O'clock news (less than 45 minutes after the shooting,) we see a cop saying how unusual it is for this area.

"We generally don't get any calls in this area. If so, it's maybe a loud music call or something like that." -Sanford Policeman, on the scene

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news...ing-in-Sanford

LTC8K6 · 25th June 2012, 10:37 AM

http://timenewsfeed.files.wordpress....5/rtr328bf.jpg

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...-head-0517.JPG

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...oseup-0517.JPG

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...hin-scrape.JPG

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...OSEUP-0517.jpg

Hopefully the high-res photo links still work.

Unabogie · 25th June 2012, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by bookworm

I remember seeing police photos of Zimmerman showing his hands. Was there blood under the fingernails? If not, I think we can eliminate the scratching his own head.

In that one recording from the EMT, he said he cursorily cleaned up his hands in order to check for other wounds. He had his own blood on his hands, yes. I don't know if he had any of Trayvon's, but I think Cylinder has a link to the autopsy that said he did. He seems to have a bunch of this bookmarked, so maybe he can help clear this up.

Rare Truth · 25th June 2012, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

Yes, before we had GZ statements I wanted you to provide evidence that you knew they charged him because of contradictory statements. I still don't see materially contradictory statements that support murder 2.

I put you on after you told me you weren't going to back up your claims. I posted the quote from you. Really, it's not hard to follow.

Since I quoted it in my response, that would be a good assumption.

I missed it ... but I quoted the exact same part as you.

Highlight the part that demonstrates the cartridge was underneath the body, please:

After a visual search of the area failed to turn up the cartridge, I got the metal detector and began to scan the area where the victim had lain. I did one sweep of the area with negative results and then reset the sensitivity of the metal detector. As I started again I heard a strong tone and looked in the area. I did not see anything so I marked the area and instructed CST smith to check the area again visually and I moved on. Before I got to the end of the sweep CST Smith told me she had found [the] casing just inches from where I had placed the marker.

The first picture is how it happened.

You really like avoiding answering. You don't believe the first picture is accurate. So....

If you don't believe the second picture is accurate, please, don't feel like you have only two options. Tell us what position you think they were in when GZ shot TM.

Wow. Just wow.

Unabogie · 25th June 2012, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

http://timenewsfeed.files.wordpress....5/rtr328bf.jpg

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...-head-0517.JPG

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...oseup-0517.JPG

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...hin-scrape.JPG

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...OSEUP-0517.jpg

Hopefully the high-res photo links still work.

Yes, thank you!

JoeTheJuggler · 25th June 2012, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Cylinder

By the way, who was it that referred this matter to a grand jury? What happened to that referral?

I'm pretty sure the county called for the grand jury, and had it scheduled. They cancelled it before that date, I think, in deference to the state-appointed special prosecutor. (At first I thought Corey was going to file charges before the date of the grand jury, so that it would be moot, but I think they cancelled it, and she filed charges some time after the originally schedule grand jury date.)

ETA: Sorry if this has already been answered. I hadn't realized the continuation thread was already 9 pages long.

TheL8Elvis · 25th June 2012, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Rare Truth

Wow. Just wow.

Thanks for backing up your statements and responding to my questions.

LTC8K6 · 25th June 2012, 10:46 AM

http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_...reconsider.pdf

The media wants W9 full release.

From Jeralyn:

Quote:

The media has filed this motion seeking the second recorded conversation of Witness 9, whom the Orlando Sentinel identifies (correctly in my view) as Zimmerman's ex-girlfriend (the one who filed the restraining order.) The prosecutor identfied her by name at the bond hearing, and submitted exhibits with her name on them. Both sides have said she won't be a witness and her statements are inadmissible. (She and Zimmerman broke up in 2005.)

The media also wants all the jail calls released.

bookworm · 25th June 2012, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

In that one recording from the EMT, he said he cursorily cleaned up his hands in order to check for other wounds. He had his own blood on his hands, yes. I don't know if he had any of Trayvon's, but I think Cylinder has a link to the autopsy that said he did. He seems to have a bunch of this bookmarked, so maybe he can help clear this up.

Well, I mean actually underneath the fingernails. But if what you say is correct then it's not impossible.

Rare Truth · 25th June 2012, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

Thanks for backing up your statements and responding to my questions.

Your posts exhibit to me an inability to even read. The "second request" I referred to was about the shell casing - and you DID NOT quote it in your link.

Further, if you found it difficult to read that report and CANNOT conclude they found the casing under the body, I don't know what to tell you.

This is what I meant before by chasing tail around - you complain about things not being backed up - when they are - what it appears you want is someone to read it and comprehend it for you too.

When it gets as simple as what was posted:

After a visual search of the area failed to turn up the cartridge, I got the metal detector and began to scan the area where the victim had lain.
I did one sweep of the area with negative results and then reset the sensitivity of the metal detector. As I started again I heard a strong tone and looked in the area. I did not see anything so I marked the area and instructed CST smith to check the area again visually and I moved on.

Before I got to the end of the sweep CST Smith told me she had found [the] casing just inches from where I had placed the marker.
And then you ask: "Highlight the part that demonstrates the cartridge was underneath the body, please:"

Well, it just tells me your intent is more to instigate, and not really learn.

I bore quickly of such games.

triforcharity · 25th June 2012, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

http://timenewsfeed.files.wordpress....5/rtr328bf.jpg

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...-head-0517.JPG

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...oseup-0517.JPG

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...hin-scrape.JPG

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...OSEUP-0517.jpg

Hopefully the high-res photo links still work.

They work, thanks. Just had a chat with some of my coworkers, and none believe that GZ was savagely beaten, nor was his head slammed on any sidewalk, let alone repeatedly.

A fall, sure, not a repeated slamming. No swelling, no bruising around the area, nothing.

Superficial scratching on his face, but again, no bruising, no swelling (other than his nose) no evidence of a savage beating.

Sorry, not buying HZ's story of any kind of beating like he describes.

Bob001 · 25th June 2012, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

He saw TM in the side yard, not 'walking down the street'.....
Your post is very ignorant of the facts.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/1...-habitual.html

The "side yard" was apparently a shared backyard 70 yards from where TM was staying, and part of a recognized shortcut to the 7-11:
http://www.miamiherald.com/trayvon/
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...on-martin.html [Be sure to click the arrows for individual close-ups and a time-line.]

The link you posted isn't very flattering to GZ, or the Sanford police:

Quote:

"..... At the focal point of a shooting scandal: a mild-mannered neighbor who fixated on crime and focused on young, black males. .... Zimmerman went door-to-door asking residents to be on the lookout, specifically referring to young black men who appeared to be outsiders.... “These a--holes always get away,” Zimmerman complained. .... In 2010, police waited seven weeks to arrest a lieutenant’s son who was caught on video sucker-punching a homeless black man.....In 2005, two security guards — one the son of a longtime Sanford police officer and the other a department volunteer — killed a black man they said was trying to run them over. Black leaders complained of a lackluster investigation....."

TheL8Elvis · 25th June 2012, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

After a visual search of tOe area felled to turn up the cartridge I got the metal deleolor and began to soan the area where the vicflm had lainlain. I did one sweep of the area with negative results and then reset thesensitivity of the metal det$ctor. As I s;tarted again I neard a strong tone and looked In the area. I did not seeanything so I marked the area, ahd Instruoted CST Smith to check ttDe 31'$8 again visually and I moved on. Before t got to the end of the sweep CST Smith told me that she had found casing just Inches from where I hadp.aeed the marker. CST Smith documented and recovered a 9mm Luger S&B cartridge oase.

If you think that means under the body , *shrugs*

Originally Posted by Rare Truth

Your posts exhibit to me an inability to even read. The "second request" I referred to was about the shell casing - and you DID NOT quote it in your link.

See above, where I quoted the report. Then reconsider your remark about inability to read.

Originally Posted by Rare Truth

Further, if you found it difficult to read that report and CANNOT conclude they found the casing under the body, I don't know what to tell you.

This is what I meant before by chasing tail around - you complain about things not being backed up - when they are - what it appears you want is someone to read it and comprehend it for you too.

When it gets as simple as what was posted:

After a visual search of the area failed to turn up the cartridge, I got the metal detector and began to scan the area where the victim had lain.
I did one sweep of the area with negative results and then reset the sensitivity of the metal detector. As I started again I heard a strong tone and looked in the area. I did not see anything so I marked the area and instructed CST smith to check the area again visually and I moved on.

Before I got to the end of the sweep CST Smith told me she had found [the] casing just inches from where I had placed the marker.
And then you ask: "Highlight the part that demonstrates the cartridge was underneath the body, please:"

In the area where the victim had lain is not the same thing as underneath where the victim had lain. No matter how much you want it to be, you are reading more into the statement than is written there.

It means they found the cartridge in the area where the victim had lain. A few inches to the left, a few inches to the right, above, underneath ... I don't know, because the report isn't specific.

Originally Posted by Rare Truth

Well, it just tells me your intent is more to instigate, and not really learn.

I bore quickly of such games.

It has to do with being accurate, not just making assumptions.

Now, the second question you haven't answered.

You really like avoiding answering. You don't believe the first picture is accurate. So....

If you don't believe the second picture is accurate, please, don't feel like you have only two options. Tell us what position you think they were in when GZ shot TM.

Natural Born Skeptic · 25th June 2012, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

Now, on the issue of self-injuring. Is that somehow impossible?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...olice-say.html

And she didn't have a motive to do this.

OK, now that we all know that crazy woman self-injured herself cutting a backwards B into her face while looking in the mirror, that changes everything! You proved it! For a moment there I was worried that you'd choose some completely ridiculous example that not only has 0 relevance but isn't even in the same universe.

BTW, she did have a motive, that's why she did it.

Does someone really need to explain to you the difference between a self-injuring woman carving a latter in her face, versus a person who we know for a fact was in a physical struggle, who was photographed minutes after his encounter, and examined by emergency medical personnel?

BTW, you have asked countless times throughout this thread why there isn't certain DNA evidence on TM or GZ etc. Please explain and reference why we should expect there to be, other than you thinking there should be. A research paper or similar explaining what you are basing your assumption on. Not some webpage article written by some guy who figured out how to write a blog.

crimresearch · 25th June 2012, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Bob001

I think we all get that GZ had the sense not to call the cops and say "I see black people!" What he did do is see black people and conclude that they were suspicious. He saw TM walking down the street at 7 p.m., and told police that he was "a suspicious guy... looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs .... just walking around and looking about." It would be interesting to know how many, if any, of GZ's calls resulted in arrests, or even any direct contacts between police and GZ's "suspects." And if it was as crime-ridden as you say, it sounds like the Neighborhood Watch wasn't very effective. It wouldn't have cost much to install some cameras at the community access points, or even locked gates with passcard access.

And if GZ wasn't paying rent to somebody who was not the owner, was he paying it to somebody who was? Or did he expect a free ride?

And yet, that is exactly what you claimed he reported... and argue in support of *after* it was disproven.

And since you already know that arrests resulted, your choice to keep regurgitating these stale falsehoods is a waste of time.

TheL8Elvis · 25th June 2012, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Bob001

The "side yard" was apparently a shared backyard 70 yards from where TM was staying, and part of a recognized shortcut to the 7-11:
http://www.miamiherald.com/trayvon/
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...on-martin.html [Be sure to click the arrows for individual close-ups and a time-line.]

That doesn't change the fact you claimed TM was on the sidewalk, GZ says he saw him in the side yard, looking about.

Is there something wrong with trying to being accurate in your claims?

Originally Posted by Bob001

The link you posted isn't very flattering to GZ, or the Sanford police:

Quote:

"..... At the focal point of a shooting scandal: a mild-mannered neighbor who fixated on crime and focused on young, black males. .... Zimmerman went door-to-door asking residents to be on the lookout, specifically referring to young black men who appeared to be outsiders.... “These a--holes always get away,” Zimmerman complained. .... In 2010, police waited seven weeks to arrest a lieutenant’s son who was caught on video sucker-punching a homeless black man.....In 2005, two security guards — one the son of a longtime Sanford police officer and the other a department volunteer — killed a black man they said was trying to run them over. Black leaders complained of a lackluster investigation....."

Did you know GZ tried to organize support for that homeless black man ?
http://www.scribd.com/doc/87688384/Z...etter-to-NAACP

crimresearch · 25th June 2012, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by bookworm

Well, I mean actually underneath the fingernails. But if what you say is correct then it's not impossible.

It isn't impossible if George had a trunk monkey.

In the seconds between the time we can hear the shot, and the arrival of the police, the evidence of Zimmerman breaking his *own* nose, and inflicting those injuries wouldn't be washed away by some first aid at the scene.

What you responded to is just more conspiracy theorist's mirroring, in order to pretend that the real world matches their imaginary TV script

LTC8K6 · 25th June 2012, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by triforcharity

They work, thanks. Just had a chat with some of my coworkers, and none believe that GZ was savagely beaten, nor was his head slammed on any sidewalk, let alone repeatedly.

A fall, sure, not a repeated slamming. No swelling, no bruising around the area, nothing.

Superficial scratching on his face, but again, no bruising, no swelling (other than his nose) no evidence of a savage beating.

Sorry, not buying HZ's story of any kind of beating like he describes.

I actually think it's very obvious that he was punched many times and his head was banged on something hard many times.

I have no trouble believing TM beat the crap out of GZ that night.

Bob001 · 25th June 2012, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

That doesn't change the fact you claimed TM was on the sidewalk, GZ says he saw him in the side yard, looking about.

Is there something wrong with trying to being accurate in your claims?

By "on the street" I meant outdoors in a public place where he had a right to be. (When Springsteen sings about being "Out in the Street" he doesn't necessarily mean the marked pavement.) Although I didn't say "sidewalk," I get your point and I appreciate your correction. We should all strive for precision. Let's say TM was walking "outdoors in a public place where he had a right to be."

Quote:

Did you know GZ tried to organize support for that homeless black man ?
http://www.scribd.com/doc/87688384/Z...etter-to-NAACP

Yes, I did see those reports, and also the reports that he served as a "mentor" to some black kids. That tells me that, like most of us, GZ is a complex human being with multiple motivations. But I think that in this case, GZ decided that somebody who fit a profile must be a criminal, and then he decided it was his right and duty to "protect" his community from that criminal. If he had just called the cops and stayed in his truck TM would be alive and GZ wouldn't be in jail.

bynmdsue · 25th June 2012, 12:03 PM

If TM hadn't punched GZ in the face he'd still be alive. If TM hadn't gotten suspended from school for drugs, he'd still be alive. How far far back should we go with the if's?

crimresearch · 25th June 2012, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by triforcharity

They work, thanks. Just had a chat with some of my coworkers, and none believe that GZ was savagely beaten, nor was his head slammed on any sidewalk, let alone repeatedly.

A fall, sure, not a repeated slamming. No swelling, no bruising around the area, nothing.

Superficial scratching on his face, but again, no bruising, no swelling (other than his nose) no evidence of a savage beating.

Sorry, not buying HZ's story of any kind of beating like he describes.

I haven't seen where GZ was the one proclaiming Trayvon's MMA expertise and 'impossible to defend against' use of 'the mount'... those seem to have been fabricated by the CT internet tough guys around here.

His actual choice of overly dramatic modifiers to describe his perceptions of being on the receiving end of a battery, isn't that significant. It happened, the injuries are real.

The crux of the matter is what happened next. Either Martin went for the gun (or made some move that was interpreted as such)... or he didn't.

Amazer · 25th June 2012, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

I actually think it's very obvious that he was punched many times and his head was banged on something hard many times.

I have no trouble believing TM beat the crap out of GZ that night.

And like Triforcharity you are an experienced EMT?

LTC8K6 · 25th June 2012, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Amazer

And like Triforcharity you are an experienced EMT?

I'm an experienced board poster.

I'm sure the defense can find a friendly EMT to counter the prosecution's unfriendly EMT.

So then we will be down to asking if any jurors are, or have been...

TheL8Elvis · 25th June 2012, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Amazer

And like Triforcharity you are an experienced EMT?

I think we all know how well the "internet doctor" thing worked out earlier in the thread.

LTC8K6 · 25th June 2012, 12:24 PM

Besides, GZ doesn't need to have any bad injuries, or even any injuries at all...

bookworm · 25th June 2012, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

I actually think it's very obvious that he was punched many times and his head was banged on something hard many times.

I have no trouble believing TM beat the crap out of GZ that night.

I agree. The witness said he was beating the crap out of him. (Not his exact words)

LTC8K6 · 25th June 2012, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by bookworm

I agree. The witness said he was beating the crap out of him. (Not his exact words)

IMO, the case is almost exactly the same, even if GZ appears to be uninjured, and was only punched in the nose once.

GZ's injuries are almost irrelevant to his case, imo.

crimresearch · 25th June 2012, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Amazer

And like Triforcharity you are an experienced EMT?

I've got some experience in EMS. Rescue squad, wilderness rescue, police 1st responder.

The MDs and paramedics have made their reports, the photos have been cleared up from the fakes, and I agree with them. Zimmerman was battered. He wasn't beaten severely.

Do you have some facts, or are you simply playing the game it looks like you are playing, of running away between these drive-by pooh flingings?

Amazer · 25th June 2012, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

IMO, the case is almost exactly the same, even if GZ appears to be uninjured, and was only punched in the nose once.

GZ's injuries are almost irrelevant to his case, imo.

So it all hinges on GZ's claim that TM went for his gun?

25th June 2012, 10:11 AM	#321
Rare Truth Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The road less travelled Posts: 1,291	Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis I don't understand why you are having a problem following this. You made a claim. I asked you to back it up. More than once. Your response, in part, was: So I posted 12698 and put you on ignore. How is that hard to follow ? I took you off ignore this morning, and am still waiting for you to provide a cite that states the cartridge was found under the body. You haven't. I posted two pictures, one of which you posted to demonstrate GZ story was inaccurate and asked you which one best describes what you think happened. Again, you didn't answer. So you asked me to back up evidence of Z's "contradictory statements to police the night of the shooting is part of the reason why the lead homicide detective found probable cause to charge him in the first place. " more than once...? I can't find anything more than that one request, which at the time seemed ludicrous to me, given we KNEW at the time Serino made a capias request, and we had been discussing ad infinitum the many conflicts we KNEW at that point so far....but let's say you did -- you wanted me to back up THIS:contradictory statements to police the night of the shooting is part of the reason why the lead homicide detective found probable cause to charge him in the first place. and then one minute later you put me on ignore? OOOOOOOOOOOkay. lol As for your second demand for back up. I assumed you had read the report. That's a given. Not my fault you missed it. Nor that you missed the reply TO YOU, just a few minutes ago, from Cylinder, on that matter - which included the portion of the detective's report. Guess you missed that as well. Quote: Quote: After a visual search of the area failed to turn up the cartridge, I got the metal detector and began to scan the area where the victim had lain. I did one sweep of the area with negative results and then reset the sensitivity of the metal detector. As I started again I heard a strong tone and looked in the area. I did not see anything so I marked the area and instructed CST smith to check the area again visually and I moved on. Before I got to the end of the sweep CST Smith told me she had found [the] casing just inches from where I had placed the marker. Last point: You're false dichotomy challenge. Which picture most closely resembles Z's statement?
	Last edited by Rare Truth; 25th June 2012 at 10:13 AM.

25th June 2012, 10:15 AM	#322
triforcharity Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: The South! Posts: 12,183	Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis That works for me, or close enough. A 'savage beating' is in the eye of the beholder. If things went as you described, it is as has been claimed numerous times - an unlucky combination of events gone terribly wrong that ended in the unfortunate death of a young man. (I know you've got me on ignore, but.....) If someone punches another person 30 times, including 3 times directly to the face, slams their head into the concrete numerous times, and tries to smother them, I would consider that savage, as would just about any ration person..... ------------------------------------------------- Since I haven't really followed this thread since GZ's bond was revoked due to his lying (Which, as I predicted in the old thread would happen), does anyone have a link to GZ's claim of being punched 30 times? I'd like to see that. (Especially considering my position that his injuries do not add up to what he claims) Also, any pictures that show GZ's injuries, or reports from SFD WRT: GZ's injuries would be cool too. Cheers!
	__________________ "The horse has been led to the water, the horse is in fact standing up to its knees in the water, but the horse is telling you in a loud voice that there's no water to be had....he's still so very thirsty!" ~alienentity

25th June 2012, 10:19 AM	#323
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 12,663	http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_...ble%20Bond.pdf "Mr. Zimmerman has no criminal convictions..."
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

25th June 2012, 10:21 AM	#324
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,519	Originally Posted by Bob001 I think we all get that GZ had the sense not to call the cops and say "I see black people!" What he did do is see black people and conclude that they were suspicious. He saw TM walking down the street at 7 p.m., and told police that he was "a suspicious guy... looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs .... just walking around and looking about." It would be interesting to know how many, if any, of GZ's calls resulted in arrests, or even any direct contacts between police and GZ's "suspects." And if it was as crime-ridden as you say, it sounds like the Neighborhood Watch wasn't very effective. It wouldn't have cost much to install some cameras at the community access points, or even locked gates with passcard access. And if GZ wasn't paying rent to somebody who was not the owner, was he paying it to somebody who was? Or did he expect a free ride? He saw TM in the side yard, not 'walking down the street'. 402 calls sounds crime ridden. And the neighborhood watch was just recently established, we have no information on its efficacy. They have cameras. They have gates. Your post is very ignorant of the facts. http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/1...-habitual.html The answer may lie in police records, which show that 50 suspicious-person reports were called in to police in the past year at Twin Lakes. There were eight burglaries, nine thefts and one other shooting in the year prior to Trayvon’s death. In all, police had been called to the 260-unit complex 402 times from Jan. 1, 2011 to Feb. 26, 2012.
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,519

25th June 2012, 10:26 AM	#327
triforcharity Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: The South! Posts: 12,183	Originally Posted by LTC8K6 http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_...ble%20Bond.pdf "Mr. Zimmerman has no criminal convictions..." Technically, according to the Florida Courts, that is accurate. But, we all know he's had issues with the law before...
	__________________ "The horse has been led to the water, the horse is in fact standing up to its knees in the water, but the horse is telling you in a loud voice that there's no water to be had....he's still so very thirsty!" ~alienentity

25th June 2012, 10:24 AM	#325
Rare Truth Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The road less travelled Posts: 1,291	Originally Posted by triforcharity (I know you've got me on ignore, but.....) If someone punches another person 30 times, including 3 times directly to the face, slams their head into the concrete numerous times, and tries to smother them, I would consider that savage, as would just about any ration person..... ------------------------------------------------- Since I haven't really followed this thread since GZ's bond was revoked due to his lying (Which, as I predicted in the old thread would happen), does anyone have a link to GZ's claim of being punched 30 times? I'd like to see that. (Especially considering my position that his injuries do not add up to what he claims) Also, any pictures that show GZ's injuries, or reports from SFD WRT: GZ's injuries would be cool too. Cheers! Here's the full frontal below-head a few hours after the brutal beat down:

25th June 2012, 10:25 AM	#326
Rare Truth Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The road less travelled Posts: 1,291	Here's the broken and traumatized punched punched punched nose: I'll try and find the cite for the 30 X. It was in one of Serino's interviews.

25th June 2012, 10:27 AM	#328
Rare Truth Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The road less travelled Posts: 1,291	Another:

25th June 2012, 10:28 AM	#329
Rare Truth Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The road less travelled Posts: 1,291	And the back of the head:

25th June 2012, 10:32 AM	#330
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,519	Yes, before we had GZ statements I wanted you to provide evidence that you knew they charged him because of contradictory statements. I still don't see materially contradictory statements that support murder 2. Originally Posted by Rare Truth [...] and then one minute later you put me on ignore? OOOOOOOOOOOkay. lol I put you on after you told me you weren't going to back up your claims. I posted the quote from you. Really, it's not hard to follow. Originally Posted by Rare Truth As for your second demand for back up. I assumed you had read the report. Since I quoted it in my response, that would be a good assumption. Originally Posted by Rare Truth That's a given. Not my fault you missed it. I missed it ... but I quoted the exact same part as you. Originally Posted by Rare Truth Nor that you missed the reply TO YOU, just a few minutes ago, from Cylinder, on that matter - which included the portion of the detective's report. Guess you missed that as well. Highlight the part that demonstrates the cartridge was underneath the body, please: After a visual search of the area failed to turn up the cartridge, I got the metal detector and began to scan the area where the victim had lain. I did one sweep of the area with negative results and then reset the sensitivity of the metal detector. As I started again I heard a strong tone and looked in the area. I did not see anything so I marked the area and instructed CST smith to check the area again visually and I moved on. Before I got to the end of the sweep CST Smith told me she had found [the] casing just inches from where I had placed the marker. Originally Posted by Rare Truth Last point: You're false dichotomy challenge. Which picture most closely resembles Z's statement? The first picture is how it happened. You really like avoiding answering. You don't believe the first picture is accurate. So.... If you don't believe the second picture is accurate, please, don't feel like you have only two options. Tell us what position you think they were in when GZ shot TM.
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,519

25th June 2012, 10:34 AM	#331
bookworm Muse Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 541	Originally Posted by Unabogie There was at least one witness who saw George walking away with his hands on his head. And I don't know where you established that he had less than one minute in order to do this, but it would take only ten seconds. He looks down, sees the people around him, it's dark, he says "oh crap, what did I just do?" and panics and marks up his own face with his hands. Is there proof of that? No, of course not. But it would explain the blood not being anywhere on Trayvon. Is it impossible? No. Would George lie? I think we've established pretty well that he will. So can this be discounted? No. Can it be considered truth? No. But it's not a CT, since it's just about whether or no an admitted killer and known liar would quickly scratch his own head after killing someone to embellish his own narrative. You know, like claiming he never followed the kid, or claiming unbelievable dialogue, etc, etc. I remember seeing police photos of Zimmerman showing his hands. Was there blood under the fingernails? If not, I think we can eliminate the scratching his own head.
bookworm Muse Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 541

25th June 2012, 10:35 AM	#332
Rare Truth Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The road less travelled Posts: 1,291	Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis He saw TM in the side yard, not 'walking down the street'. 402 calls sounds crime ridden. And the neighborhood watch was just recently established, we have no information on its efficacy. They have cameras. They have gates. Your post is very ignorant of the facts. http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/1...-habitual.html The answer may lie in police records, which show that 50 suspicious-person reports were called in to police in the past year at Twin Lakes. There were eight burglaries, nine thefts and one other shooting in the year prior to Trayvon’s death. In all, police had been called to the 260-unit complex 402 times from Jan. 1, 2011 to Feb. 26, 2012. Makes you wonder why in this Breaking News report that was LIVE on the scene on the 8 O'clock news (less than 45 minutes after the shooting,) we see a cop saying how unusual it is for this area. "We generally don't get any calls in this area. If so, it's maybe a loud music call or something like that." -Sanford Policeman, on the scene http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news...ing-in-Sanford

25th June 2012, 10:37 AM	#333
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 12,663	http://timenewsfeed.files.wordpress....5/rtr328bf.jpg http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...-head-0517.JPG http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...oseup-0517.JPG http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...hin-scrape.JPG http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...OSEUP-0517.jpg Hopefully the high-res photo links still work.
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

25th June 2012, 10:37 AM	#334
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,852	Originally Posted by bookworm I remember seeing police photos of Zimmerman showing his hands. Was there blood under the fingernails? If not, I think we can eliminate the scratching his own head. In that one recording from the EMT, he said he cursorily cleaned up his hands in order to check for other wounds. He had his own blood on his hands, yes. I don't know if he had any of Trayvon's, but I think Cylinder has a link to the autopsy that said he did. He seems to have a bunch of this bookmarked, so maybe he can help clear this up.

25th June 2012, 10:38 AM	#335
Rare Truth Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The road less travelled Posts: 1,291	Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis Yes, before we had GZ statements I wanted you to provide evidence that you knew they charged him because of contradictory statements. I still don't see materially contradictory statements that support murder 2. I put you on after you told me you weren't going to back up your claims. I posted the quote from you. Really, it's not hard to follow. Since I quoted it in my response, that would be a good assumption. I missed it ... but I quoted the exact same part as you. Highlight the part that demonstrates the cartridge was underneath the body, please: After a visual search of the area failed to turn up the cartridge, I got the metal detector and began to scan the area where the victim had lain. I did one sweep of the area with negative results and then reset the sensitivity of the metal detector. As I started again I heard a strong tone and looked in the area. I did not see anything so I marked the area and instructed CST smith to check the area again visually and I moved on. Before I got to the end of the sweep CST Smith told me she had found [the] casing just inches from where I had placed the marker. The first picture is how it happened. You really like avoiding answering. You don't believe the first picture is accurate. So.... If you don't believe the second picture is accurate, please, don't feel like you have only two options. Tell us what position you think they were in when GZ shot TM. Wow. Just wow.

25th June 2012, 10:39 AM	#336
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,852	Originally Posted by LTC8K6 http://timenewsfeed.files.wordpress....5/rtr328bf.jpg http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...-head-0517.JPG http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...oseup-0517.JPG http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...hin-scrape.JPG http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...OSEUP-0517.jpg Hopefully the high-res photo links still work. Yes, thank you!

25th June 2012, 10:41 AM	#337
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,769	Originally Posted by Cylinder By the way, who was it that referred this matter to a grand jury? What happened to that referral? I'm pretty sure the county called for the grand jury, and had it scheduled. They cancelled it before that date, I think, in deference to the state-appointed special prosecutor. (At first I thought Corey was going to file charges before the date of the grand jury, so that it would be moot, but I think they cancelled it, and she filed charges some time after the originally schedule grand jury date.) ETA: Sorry if this has already been answered. I hadn't realized the continuation thread was already 9 pages long.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons Last edited by JoeTheJuggler; 25th June 2012 at 10:43 AM.

25th June 2012, 10:45 AM	#338
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,519	Originally Posted by Rare Truth Wow. Just wow. Thanks for backing up your statements and responding to my questions.
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,519

25th June 2012, 10:46 AM	#339
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 12,663	http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_...reconsider.pdf The media wants W9 full release. From Jeralyn: Quote: The media has filed this motion seeking the second recorded conversation of Witness 9, whom the Orlando Sentinel identifies (correctly in my view) as Zimmerman's ex-girlfriend (the one who filed the restraining order.) The prosecutor identfied her by name at the bond hearing, and submitted exhibits with her name on them. Both sides have said she won't be a witness and her statements are inadmissible. (She and Zimmerman broke up in 2005.) The media also wants all the jail calls released.
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

25th June 2012, 10:54 AM	#340
bookworm Muse Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 541	Originally Posted by Unabogie In that one recording from the EMT, he said he cursorily cleaned up his hands in order to check for other wounds. He had his own blood on his hands, yes. I don't know if he had any of Trayvon's, but I think Cylinder has a link to the autopsy that said he did. He seems to have a bunch of this bookmarked, so maybe he can help clear this up. Well, I mean actually underneath the fingernails. But if what you say is correct then it's not impossible.
bookworm Muse Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 541

25th June 2012, 10:59 AM	#341
Rare Truth Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The road less travelled Posts: 1,291	Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis Thanks for backing up your statements and responding to my questions. Your posts exhibit to me an inability to even read. The "second request" I referred to was about the shell casing - and you DID NOT quote it in your link. Further, if you found it difficult to read that report and CANNOT conclude they found the casing under the body, I don't know what to tell you. This is what I meant before by chasing tail around - you complain about things not being backed up - when they are - what it appears you want is someone to read it and comprehend it for you too. When it gets as simple as what was posted: After a visual search of the area failed to turn up the cartridge, I got the metal detector and began to scan the area where the victim had lain. I did one sweep of the area with negative results and then reset the sensitivity of the metal detector. As I started again I heard a strong tone and looked in the area. I did not see anything so I marked the area and instructed CST smith to check the area again visually and I moved on. Before I got to the end of the sweep CST Smith told me she had found [the] casing just inches from where I had placed the marker. And then you ask: "Highlight the part that demonstrates the cartridge was underneath the body, please:" Well, it just tells me your intent is more to instigate, and not really learn. I bore quickly of such games.

25th June 2012, 11:12 AM	#342
triforcharity Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: The South! Posts: 12,183	Originally Posted by LTC8K6 http://timenewsfeed.files.wordpress....5/rtr328bf.jpg http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...-head-0517.JPG http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...oseup-0517.JPG http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...hin-scrape.JPG http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...OSEUP-0517.jpg Hopefully the high-res photo links still work. They work, thanks. Just had a chat with some of my coworkers, and none believe that GZ was savagely beaten, nor was his head slammed on any sidewalk, let alone repeatedly. A fall, sure, not a repeated slamming. No swelling, no bruising around the area, nothing. Superficial scratching on his face, but again, no bruising, no swelling (other than his nose) no evidence of a savage beating. Sorry, not buying HZ's story of any kind of beating like he describes.
	__________________ "The horse has been led to the water, the horse is in fact standing up to its knees in the water, but the horse is telling you in a loud voice that there's no water to be had....he's still so very thirsty!" ~alienentity

25th June 2012, 11:16 AM	#343
Bob001 Muse Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 883	Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis He saw TM in the side yard, not 'walking down the street'..... Your post is very ignorant of the facts. http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/1...-habitual.html The "side yard" was apparently a shared backyard 70 yards from where TM was staying, and part of a recognized shortcut to the 7-11: http://www.miamiherald.com/trayvon/ http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...on-martin.html [Be sure to click the arrows for individual close-ups and a time-line.] The link you posted isn't very flattering to GZ, or the Sanford police: Quote: "..... At the focal point of a shooting scandal: a mild-mannered neighbor who fixated on crime and focused on young, black males. .... Zimmerman went door-to-door asking residents to be on the lookout, specifically referring to young black men who appeared to be outsiders.... “These a--holes always get away,” Zimmerman complained. .... In 2010, police waited seven weeks to arrest a lieutenant’s son who was caught on video sucker-punching a homeless black man.....In 2005, two security guards — one the son of a longtime Sanford police officer and the other a department volunteer — killed a black man they said was trying to run them over. Black leaders complained of a lackluster investigation....."
Bob001 Muse Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 883	Last edited by Bob001; 25th June 2012 at 11:26 AM.

25th June 2012, 11:20 AM	#344
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,519	Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis After a visual search of tOe area felled to turn up the cartridge I got the metal deleolor and began to soan the area where the vicflm had lainlain. I did one sweep of the area with negative results and then reset thesensitivity of the metal det$ctor. As I s;tarted again I neard a strong tone and looked In the area. I did not seeanything so I marked the area, ahd Instruoted CST Smith to check ttDe 31'$8 again visually and I moved on. Before t got to the end of the sweep CST Smith told me that she had found casing just Inches from where I hadp.aeed the marker. CST Smith documented and recovered a 9mm Luger S&B cartridge oase. If you think that means under the body , shrugs Originally Posted by Rare Truth Your posts exhibit to me an inability to even read. The "second request" I referred to was about the shell casing - and you DID NOT quote it in your link. See above, where I quoted the report. Then reconsider your remark about inability to read. Originally Posted by Rare Truth Further, if you found it difficult to read that report and CANNOT conclude they found the casing under the body, I don't know what to tell you. This is what I meant before by chasing tail around - you complain about things not being backed up - when they are - what it appears you want is someone to read it and comprehend it for you too. When it gets as simple as what was posted: After a visual search of the area failed to turn up the cartridge, I got the metal detector and began to scan the area where the victim had lain. I did one sweep of the area with negative results and then reset the sensitivity of the metal detector. As I started again I heard a strong tone and looked in the area. I did not see anything so I marked the area and instructed CST smith to check the area again visually and I moved on. Before I got to the end of the sweep CST Smith told me she had found [the] casing just inches from where I had placed the marker. And then you ask: "Highlight the part that demonstrates the cartridge was underneath the body, please:" In the area where the victim had lain is not the same thing as underneath where the victim had lain. No matter how much you want it to be, you are reading more into the statement than is written there. It means they found the cartridge in the area where the victim had lain. A few inches to the left, a few inches to the right, above, underneath ... I don't know, because the report isn't specific. Originally Posted by Rare Truth Well, it just tells me your intent is more to instigate, and not really learn. I bore quickly of such games. It has to do with being accurate, not just making assumptions. Now, the second question you haven't answered. You really like avoiding answering. You don't believe the first picture is accurate. So.... If you don't believe the second picture is accurate, please, don't feel like you have only two options. Tell us what position you think they were in when GZ shot TM.
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,519	Last edited by TheL8Elvis; 25th June 2012 at 11:47 AM.

25th June 2012, 11:23 AM	#345
Natural Born Skeptic Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,151	Originally Posted by Unabogie Now, on the issue of self-injuring. Is that somehow impossible? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...olice-say.html And she didn't have a motive to do this. OK, now that we all know that crazy woman self-injured herself cutting a backwards B into her face while looking in the mirror, that changes everything! You proved it! For a moment there I was worried that you'd choose some completely ridiculous example that not only has 0 relevance but isn't even in the same universe. BTW, she did have a motive, that's why she did it. Does someone really need to explain to you the difference between a self-injuring woman carving a latter in her face, versus a person who we know for a fact was in a physical struggle, who was photographed minutes after his encounter, and examined by emergency medical personnel? BTW, you have asked countless times throughout this thread why there isn't certain DNA evidence on TM or GZ etc. Please explain and reference why we should expect there to be, other than you thinking there should be. A research paper or similar explaining what you are basing your assumption on. Not some webpage article written by some guy who figured out how to write a blog.

25th June 2012, 11:28 AM	#346
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by Bob001 I think we all get that GZ had the sense not to call the cops and say "I see black people!" What he did do is see black people and conclude that they were suspicious. He saw TM walking down the street at 7 p.m., and told police that he was "a suspicious guy... looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs .... just walking around and looking about." It would be interesting to know how many, if any, of GZ's calls resulted in arrests, or even any direct contacts between police and GZ's "suspects." And if it was as crime-ridden as you say, it sounds like the Neighborhood Watch wasn't very effective. It wouldn't have cost much to install some cameras at the community access points, or even locked gates with passcard access. And if GZ wasn't paying rent to somebody who was not the owner, was he paying it to somebody who was? Or did he expect a free ride? And yet, that is exactly what you claimed he reported... and argue in support of after it was disproven. And since you already know that arrests resulted, your choice to keep regurgitating these stale falsehoods is a waste of time.
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

25th June 2012, 11:31 AM	#347
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,519	Originally Posted by Bob001 The "side yard" was apparently a shared backyard 70 yards from where TM was staying, and part of a recognized shortcut to the 7-11: http://www.miamiherald.com/trayvon/ http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...on-martin.html [Be sure to click the arrows for individual close-ups and a time-line.] That doesn't change the fact you claimed TM was on the sidewalk, GZ says he saw him in the side yard, looking about. Is there something wrong with trying to being accurate in your claims? Originally Posted by Bob001 The link you posted isn't very flattering to GZ, or the Sanford police: Quote: "..... At the focal point of a shooting scandal: a mild-mannered neighbor who fixated on crime and focused on young, black males. .... Zimmerman went door-to-door asking residents to be on the lookout, specifically referring to young black men who appeared to be outsiders.... “These a--holes always get away,” Zimmerman complained. .... In 2010, police waited seven weeks to arrest a lieutenant’s son who was caught on video sucker-punching a homeless black man.....In 2005, two security guards — one the son of a longtime Sanford police officer and the other a department volunteer — killed a black man they said was trying to run them over. Black leaders complained of a lackluster investigation....." Did you know GZ tried to organize support for that homeless black man ? http://www.scribd.com/doc/87688384/Z...etter-to-NAACP
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,519

25th June 2012, 11:39 AM	#348
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by bookworm Well, I mean actually underneath the fingernails. But if what you say is correct then it's not impossible. It isn't impossible if George had a trunk monkey. In the seconds between the time we can hear the shot, and the arrival of the police, the evidence of Zimmerman breaking his own nose, and inflicting those injuries wouldn't be washed away by some first aid at the scene. What you responded to is just more conspiracy theorist's mirroring, in order to pretend that the real world matches their imaginary TV script
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

25th June 2012, 11:47 AM	#349
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 12,663	Originally Posted by triforcharity They work, thanks. Just had a chat with some of my coworkers, and none believe that GZ was savagely beaten, nor was his head slammed on any sidewalk, let alone repeatedly. A fall, sure, not a repeated slamming. No swelling, no bruising around the area, nothing. Superficial scratching on his face, but again, no bruising, no swelling (other than his nose) no evidence of a savage beating. Sorry, not buying HZ's story of any kind of beating like he describes. I actually think it's very obvious that he was punched many times and his head was banged on something hard many times. I have no trouble believing TM beat the crap out of GZ that night.
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

25th June 2012, 11:54 AM	#350
Bob001 Muse Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 883	Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis That doesn't change the fact you claimed TM was on the sidewalk, GZ says he saw him in the side yard, looking about. Is there something wrong with trying to being accurate in your claims? By "on the street" I meant outdoors in a public place where he had a right to be. (When Springsteen sings about being "Out in the Street" he doesn't necessarily mean the marked pavement.) Although I didn't say "sidewalk," I get your point and I appreciate your correction. We should all strive for precision. Let's say TM was walking "outdoors in a public place where he had a right to be." Quote: Did you know GZ tried to organize support for that homeless black man ? http://www.scribd.com/doc/87688384/Z...etter-to-NAACP Yes, I did see those reports, and also the reports that he served as a "mentor" to some black kids. That tells me that, like most of us, GZ is a complex human being with multiple motivations. But I think that in this case, GZ decided that somebody who fit a profile must be a criminal, and then he decided it was his right and duty to "protect" his community from that criminal. If he had just called the cops and stayed in his truck TM would be alive and GZ wouldn't be in jail.
Bob001 Muse Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 883	Last edited by Bob001; 25th June 2012 at 11:56 AM.

25th June 2012, 12:03 PM	#351
bynmdsue Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,385	If TM hadn't punched GZ in the face he'd still be alive. If TM hadn't gotten suspended from school for drugs, he'd still be alive. How far far back should we go with the if's?

25th June 2012, 12:03 PM	#352
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by triforcharity They work, thanks. Just had a chat with some of my coworkers, and none believe that GZ was savagely beaten, nor was his head slammed on any sidewalk, let alone repeatedly. A fall, sure, not a repeated slamming. No swelling, no bruising around the area, nothing. Superficial scratching on his face, but again, no bruising, no swelling (other than his nose) no evidence of a savage beating. Sorry, not buying HZ's story of any kind of beating like he describes. I haven't seen where GZ was the one proclaiming Trayvon's MMA expertise and 'impossible to defend against' use of 'the mount'... those seem to have been fabricated by the CT internet tough guys around here. His actual choice of overly dramatic modifiers to describe his perceptions of being on the receiving end of a battery, isn't that significant. It happened, the injuries are real. The crux of the matter is what happened next. Either Martin went for the gun (or made some move that was interpreted as such)... or he didn't.
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

25th June 2012, 12:16 PM	#353
Amazer Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Bangalore, Cork, Sliedrecht Posts: 1,007	Originally Posted by LTC8K6 I actually think it's very obvious that he was punched many times and his head was banged on something hard many times. I have no trouble believing TM beat the crap out of GZ that night. And like Triforcharity you are an experienced EMT?

25th June 2012, 12:22 PM	#354
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 12,663	Originally Posted by Amazer And like Triforcharity you are an experienced EMT? I'm an experienced board poster. I'm sure the defense can find a friendly EMT to counter the prosecution's unfriendly EMT. So then we will be down to asking if any jurors are, or have been...
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

25th June 2012, 12:24 PM	#355
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,519	Originally Posted by Amazer And like Triforcharity you are an experienced EMT? I think we all know how well the "internet doctor" thing worked out earlier in the thread.
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,519