AIDS & Homeopathy in S. Africa

[LostAngeles]

L.A. Times article

Quote:

Asked whether she believed that antiretroviral drugs, rather than her "immune booster" capsules, could be a solution, Mogano pursed her lips and replied primly, "The solution is prayer."

She goes on from there on that topic.

[Bowser]

The solution is abstinence.

Perhaps you could post the relevant parts of the article (e.g., something that has to do with your title) for those of us uninterested in registering at that site. Thanks.

[Ipecac]

Quote:

Originally posted by Bowser
The solution is abstinence.

Not once you've contracted the virus. What do you suggest for those who already have it?

[geni]

Quote:

Originally posted by Bowser
The solution is abstinence.

Nope there are other methos of transmition.

[Bowser]

You're right, geni, but for what is going on in Africa, it is sure a start, and for the collective would be an excellent solution.

Ipecac, I have a friend who was apparently cured of AIDS (although he may still have harbored HIV). He was one of the first people who came down with it and was part of a research group at the time. A very strong drug that apparently killed most of the people in the group. So, even though he pulled through from the last stages of AIDS, the drug could not be marketed.

I can't speak for anyone else at all. I would definitely turn to homeopathy, but that isn't necessarily all that I would try.

[LostAngeles]

Quote:

Originally posted by Bowser
The solution is abstinence.

Perhaps you could post the relevant parts of the article (e.g., something that has to do with your title) for those of us uninterested in registering at that site. Thanks.

I went to the site and checked to see if registering was needed before I posted the link. It wasn't at the time, and this is the morning's paper.

Nevertheless, the whole article is actually relevant and I can't legally post the whole thing, but here's the gems.

Quote:

Flora Mogano has given up waiting for someone to come and help treat the people with AIDS in her township. When the government is slow, she makes do with miracles.

But judging by her patient records — laboriously handwritten in exercise books — the record on miracles here is patchy. On every page, many of the names are skewered with a fluorescent green line: the ones who have died. Of 377 people in her latest book, for last year and this, 100 are dead.

Free antiretroviral medicines, released in five hospitals two weeks before South Africa's recent elections, have not yet reached this township north of Johannesburg. But Mogano, 60, swears by a different medicine, an "immune booster" with plant-based vitamins and minerals, along with plenty of humble prayer.

"The majority of people spend their money looking for a better witch doctor," said Mogano, a traditional healer. "After they've tried their best and failed, they come to me."

...

Former President Nelson Mandela has acknowledged that he did not do enough to combat the epidemic, and his successor, Thabo Mbeki, has questioned whether the human immunodeficiency virus causes AIDS and whether the antiretroviral drugs widely used in the developed world help or hurt.

That has left many of the 5.3 million HIV-positive South Africans dependent on volunteers such as Mogano and other traditional healers, many pushing questionable remedies.

Asked whether she believed that antiretroviral drugs, rather than her "immune booster" capsules, could be a solution, Mogano pursed her lips and replied primly, "The solution is prayer."

Mogano claims to have cured many patients with prayer and sees the disease as a punishment for sin.

"Some say: 'Do you really think God is there? How can we suffer like this if God is there?' If you read the Bible, you read that when the Israelites were sinning, God punished them with different things," she said. "God said, 'If they are ashamed of their sins and come back to me and bow to the Lord, I'll hear their prayers in heaven and I'll relieve them.' That's why you'll find people who go to church and confess their sins and they're cured."

...

Although Mogano's sponsors pay for the pills, the immune booster capsules cost other AIDS victims about $37 a month — highly expensive in a country with 40% unemployment.

Her reliance on prayer and an untested medicine highlight the desperate remedies many seek out if they can't get free antiretroviral drugs, which otherwise cost about $100 a month.

Dr. Ashraf Coovadia, an HIV specialist pediatrician at Coronation Hospital in Johannesburg, said a rash of the so-called immune boosters had appeared on the market.

"Unfortunately, there are a lot of claims around that people should take this, that and the other. Many go under the term 'immune booster,' and patients buy them out of desperation," she said. "People will fall for these things, unfortunately. But if you are going to spend so much, you might as well spend the money on ARVs, which at least are known to help."

...

In key speeches, such as his state of the nation address or his recent victory speech after being reelected, President Mbeki refers to HIV and AIDS only in passing. He lumps AIDS in with other illnesses, such as tuberculosis and cholera, questioning why people don't make as much of a fuss about them.

...

Thirty percent had attended a funeral in the previous month, it found, and 26% had been to a doctor.

...

"Those ARVs are not a cure — there are implications of side effects and so on," she said in an interview a week after the rollout of the free drugs in Gauteng.

On the table next to Pumphile Ngcobo's bed is a forest of medicine bottles, their incomprehensible labels full of mysterious hope. But not one is the medicine she really needs. She does not even know where to go to get the free antiretrovirals that could keep her alive.

...

Ngcobo thinks she caught the virus caring for her sisters, not thinking that her husband, who died in a car accident, might have been HIV-positive.

These are the highlights of the ignorance on the part of the victims, the government denial, and the resultant market.

Mods: If I posted too much of the article, feel free to trim or let me know and I'll do it.

[Bowser]

LA, thanks for posting the article. I don't see anything in it that suggests there is anything even vaguely related to homeopathy going on.

[Ipecac]

Quote:

Originally posted by Bowser
I can't speak for anyone else at all. I would definitely turn to homeopathy . . .

And you would waste your time, your money and endanger your life.

[Bowser]

Ipecac, you intentionally took me out of context, I suppose? I said it wasn't necessarily all I would do.

[MRC_Hans]

Maybe not, but what makes you think homeopathy would help you at all?

Hans

[patnray]

Quote:

Originally posted by Bowser
The solution is abstinence.

Clearly you have no understanding of the religious and sociological climate in much of Africa.

This is a medical issue, not a moral one. Not that abstinence isn't effective in preventing the spread of HIV, but a program that ignores the culture and focuses solely on abstinence is not likely to be effective.

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ipecac


And you would waste your time, your money and endanger your life.

The costs of HIV treatments are out of reach for the majority of infected people. For tens of thousands it is unavailable. The lives of those people are already in danger; they don't have much money, and they are running out of time as the infection progresses to AIDS. If a homeopathic remedy gives them some comfort, I say let them have it, the damage is done.

WHO estimates that of the 40 million people now living with HIV/AIDS in developing countries, between 5 and 6 million in the advanced stages of the disease urgently need ART. However, only about 300 000 currently have access to it.

[drkitten]

Quote:

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Maybe not, but what makes you think homeopathy would help you at all?

A freak chance is better than none at all.

Had I a disease that I knew would kill me (such as AIDS), "endangering my life" isn't much of a deterrent, is it? And as for wasting my money, well,... there are no pockets in a shroud.

I can understand, and pity, the people who in desperate straits turn to ineffective treatment. I have little but contempt for those to whom they turn.

[Bowser]

Of course, the article had zero, zip, nada do to with homeopathy. (Maybe LA will do the honorable thing, assuming the forum software allows him to do so).

I didn't say anything about morals. I understand the culture is very different and that abstinence isn't realistic but it doesn't change it would have prevented the rampant epidemic that is brewing on that continent. This is a disease that screams to be prevented, not treated. Western medicine sure isn't accomplishing much - I hope it wasn't Western arrogance that resulted in that waste of time and resources in Africa.

drkitten, I haven't read enough to know if homeopathy is effective at curing AIDS. I don't doubt there are remedies that could ameliorate it. I know for a fact that homeopathy has cured me of "incurable" conditions (incurable being a euphemism for conditions that still stump the allopaths). I hard need your pity.

[MRC_Hans]

Quote:

Originally posted by Bowser
*snip*
drkitten, I haven't read enough to know if homeopathy is effective at curing AIDS.

It can't.

I don't doubt there are remedies that could ameliorate it. I know for a fact that homeopathy has cured me of "incurable" conditions (incurable being a euphemism for conditions that still stump the allopaths).

No, you beleive that homeoathy cured you.

I hard need your pity. [/b]

Time for another homeopathy discussion, perhaps? There are a couple of other homeopathy proponents here, currently (although olaf has been silent lately). Perhaps you should rally them. You won't lack qualified opposition .

Hans

[Bowser]

Hans, to be able to get off life-long allopathic drugs as a result of a homeopathic remedy is a cure. Belief has nothing to do with it.

As far as AIDS, I'm all for prevention. I have no interest at all in testing whether homeopathy or anything else can reverse either HIV or AIDS.

[Zombified]

Quote:

Originally posted by Bowser
I have no interest at all in testing whether homeopathy or anything else can reverse either HIV or AIDS.

Is this because you know in your heart homeopathy will fail the test, or simply because you lack compassion for the suffering of millions of people?

[Segnosaur]

Quote:

Originally posted by Bowser

As far as AIDS, I'm all for prevention. I have no interest at all in testing whether homeopathy or anything else can reverse either HIV or AIDS.

So let me get this straight... if someone already has AIDS (either through a mistake they made, or a bad blood transfusion, or through a partner they thought was faithful), you are quite happy to see them die? Even if homeopathy can cure them?

[LostAngeles]

Quote:

Originally posted by Bowser
Of course, the article had zero, zip, nada do to with homeopathy. (Maybe LA will do the honorable thing, assuming the forum software allows him to do so).

I didn't say anything about morals. I understand the culture is very different and that abstinence isn't realistic but it doesn't change it would have prevented the rampant epidemic that is brewing on that continent. This is a disease that screams to be prevented, not treated. Western medicine sure isn't accomplishing much - I hope it wasn't Western arrogance that resulted in that waste of time and resources in Africa.

drkitten, I haven't read enough to know if homeopathy is effective at curing AIDS. I don't doubt there are remedies that could ameliorate it. I know for a fact that homeopathy has cured me of "incurable" conditions (incurable being a euphemism for conditions that still stump the allopaths). I hard need your pity.

First off, I'm a her.

Second, I (most likely) misused homeopathy as a lump-all term for herbalism, snake-oil, and faith crap. If you read the bits I posted, that's what these people are being sold.

Third, Americans have no honor.

ETA: May we inquire as to what the "incurable" conditions are?

[Quasi]

Quote:

Originally posted by Zombified
Is this because you know in your heart homeopathy will fail the test, or simply because you lack compassion for the suffering of millions of people?

I think this is an excellent chance for the homeopaths to really show us allopaths, and the rest of the world what they can do. Bowser, I think the Nobel prize, plus the JREF one million dollars can be yours or any other homeopathy supporter quite easily it seems. Show us. Go ahead, I will gladly admit I am wrong if homeopathy can cure malaria, AIDS, or cancer. Any takers?

[Bowser]

First, apologies, I'll try to remember.

Second, snake oil or faith crap would have been more accurate. Meanwhile, I suppose there is a fair amount about AIDS and homeopathy in this thread at this point (apologies again, perhaps).

Third, allow me my moment of nostalgia.

The particular conditions don't matter. Nothing fatal, but d@mn incapacitating at times. BSM assumes I'm lying anyway. Allopathy could do nothing but suppress them. Homeopathy made them disappear, without introducing anything new.

[Bowser]

Gee, quasi, homeopathy evolved from the recognition of why quinine is effective in treating malaria ("like cures like"). So that's really old news.

Segnosaur, I meant I had no interest in testing *in me* whether homeopathy or any other treatment might work. I'm not volunteering to be an AIDS guinea pig. I'm not happy to see anyone die, especially from an avoidable condition. It's a horrible way to go, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I hope to avoid it.

[LostAngeles]

Quote:

Originally posted by Bowser
...

Third, allow me my moment of nostalgia.

The particular conditions don't matter. Nothing fatal, but d@mn incapacitating at times. BSM assumes I'm lying anyway. Allopathy could do nothing but suppress them. Homeopathy made them disappear, without introducing anything new.

"It's about supression."
Are you sure the homeopathy didn't do the same?

Your apology is accepted and if the nostalgia forms are filled out in triplicate and filed with the proper bureaus, then well, I suppose.

[Zombified]

Missed this the first time:

Quote:

Originally posted by Bowser
This is a disease that screams to be prevented, not treated. Western medicine sure isn't accomplishing much - I hope it wasn't Western arrogance that resulted in that waste of time and resources in Africa.

First, "western medicine" has been trying very hard to work on prevention, including altering sexual behavior and encouraging the use of condoms.

Second, medicine has accomplished much: drug treatment does extend life and improve the quality of life for HIV-positive people.

Furthermore, medicine has made a lot of progress in the basic science of HIV, which tells us a lot about how to properly proceed with both prevention and treatment.

Treat vs. prevent is a false dichotomy: western medicine is doing both. Not perfectly, but as well as can be done with current knowledge and resources, and if given the chance, medicine will continue to improve.

Since you are so keen on prevention, however, perhaps you can tell us what homeopaths are doing for AIDS in Africa, whether its prevention or treatment?

[Ipecac]

Quote:

Originally posted by Bowser
Ipecac, you intentionally took me out of context, I suppose? I said it wasn't necessarily all I would do.

I didn't take you out of context. My point was specifically referring to the part of your sentence where you said you would use homeopathy. Every moment, every penny you spent on homeopathy would be a waste. I'm glad you would use real treatments as well, but that doesn't mean the homeopathic treatments would be useful or productive.

[Rolfe]

Quote:

Originally posted by Zombified
Since you are so keen on prevention, however, perhaps you can tell us what homeopaths are doing for AIDS in Africa, whether its prevention or treatment?

They say they could cure AIDS, given the chance. When MRC_Hans asked them why they didn't go to Africa and make a difference, hey, there were all these people who'd never been near a suppressing allopathic drug to get going on, they told him that it was his duty to fund a homoeopathic AIDS clinic in Africa!

When someone else asked if homoeopathy was so all-fired great in this line, how come the death rate from AIDS only started to fall when combination therapy was introduced, the post was deleted.

I've heard of intellectual bankruptcy, but that lot make the National Debt look like a small overspend at the corner shop.

Rolfe.

[Ipecac]

Here's another question. How would you go about making a homeopathic remedy for AIDS? It has MANY symptoms. Which symptoms would you choose for the "like cures like" part of the equation?

[Bowser]

Zombified, none of your points about the progress AIDS research, treatment and prevention have made to date have much of anything to do with Africa, which was the subject of the article. Prevention isn't working there. The treatments are too expensive and not enough are available anyway. If you are so concerned about who is doing or not doing what in Africa, I'm sure you can research it yourself, that's not my job.

Please show me the statistics that the southern African continent is in significantly better shape as a result of the huge outpouring of funds and manpower to combat AIDS in that region. If I'm being overly pessimistic about it I would be delighted to be shown differently. We (westerners) may have pieces of the puzzle about what to do, but I haven't noticed it coming together yet. You sound as though you think I am personally to blame for that.

[Bowser]

Ipecac, that would be the job of the skilled and experienced homeopath to make that determination. And unless you are totally unfamiliar with homeopathy, please understand that it would have to reflect the symptoms of the individual at a moment in time, not the generalized symptoms of AIDS over time.

[Ipecac]

Quote:

Originally posted by Bowser
Ipecac, that would be the job of the skilled and experienced homeopath to make that determination. And unless you are totally unfamiliar with homeopathy, please understand that it would have to reflect the symptoms of the individual at a moment in time, not the generalized symptoms of AIDS over time.

So if 2 million people have AIDS, each of them would have to go to a homeopath who would concoct a unique solution for that individual?

Do you understand that that's not how medicine actually works? Aspirin works for nearly everyone, regardless of other factors.

Also, if this is true, why do they sell homeopathic solutions at drug stores?

[Bowser]

In treating a large number of people homeopathically who could not be treated individually because of limited resources, who were all going to die without treatment, then that might be a valid reason to choose the remedy or a small selection of remedies based on what was most likely statistically to be effective. It would not necessarily be the best treatment for a specific individual.

Actually, that's true in western medicine as well, isn't? At least, isn't that the rationale given for why there *aren't* 100% cures or suppressions for many drugs? They are approved by FDA based on being statistically significant compared to the placebo group, not based on working for nearly everyone. There wouldn't be the need for the double-blind studies if statistics weren't to play a huge part in it.

So, I guess I don't agree with your definition of "medicine" even if you had qualified it as "western medicine" instead.

[Bowser]

"Also, if this is true, why do they sell homeopathic solutions at drug stores?"

I guess because there isn't any active ingredient in them so they can't possibly do any harm.

[LostAngeles]

Quote:

Originally posted by Bowser
Zombified, none of your points about the progress AIDS research, treatment and prevention have made to date have much of anything to do with Africa, which was the subject of the article. Prevention isn't working there. The treatments are too expensive and not enough are available anyway. If you are so concerned about who is doing or not doing what in Africa, I'm sure you can research it yourself, that's not my job.

Please show me the statistics that the southern African continent is in significantly better shape as a result of the huge outpouring of funds and manpower to combat AIDS in that region. If I'm being overly pessimistic about it I would be delighted to be shown differently. We (westerners) may have pieces of the puzzle about what to do, but I haven't noticed it coming together yet. You sound as though you think I am personally to blame for that.

The free ARVs are just starting to come in there. As the article stated, it's an uphill battle to convince some of the folks in power about what HIV is. I say more pressure needs to be put on the drug companies.

I worked a bit at a recent AIDS conference doing registration, but I got to peek in on it at times. Among the topics dealt with, were the development of resistantces to the drugs and the emergence of drug resistant mutations and how do you deal with such patients. The AIDS crisis may have come down to a dull roar in the media, but in the medical world it's still huge.

To me, it sure as hell looked like more pieces were being put together. I think with most of us being layfolk at best and the complexities of these... entities, things, whatever you'd classify vrii as, we're not aware of how big the puzzle truly is and what can be done for HIV+ patients now as opposed to three years ago.

[hgc]

Quote:

Originally posted by geni


Nope there are other methos of transmition.

Like prayer for instance.

Dear God, please give that rat-bastard AIDS, and my soul is yours forever.

[Bowser]

LA, I'm glad to hear you think there has been a lot of progress with AIDS recently. Sorry to hear about the developing resistances - that would be another reason to explore what homeopathy might be able to add.

I'm not sure I quite follow what you were saying in the beginning of that post - you're talking about Africa there? Do you see an effective African program developing yet?

[BPSCG]

Quote:

Originally posted by Bowser
LA, I'm glad to hear you think there has been a lot of progress with AIDS recently. Sorry to hear about the developing resistances - that would be another reason to explore what homeopathy might be able to add.

Well, jeeze Louise, AIDS has only been around for twenty years or so. If homeopathy has anything to offer, what's it waiting for?

[Bowser]

BPSCG, there isn't anything additional that needs to be "discovered" to start treating AIDS with homeopathy so it isn't "waiting" for anything. It requires a patient to get in touch with a qualified homeopath. If the patient cares to do so, there is nothing stopping him or her, so I don't see what your question is.

[Prester John]

Quote:

Originally posted by Bowser
Gee, quasi, homeopathy evolved from the recognition of why quinine is effective in treating malaria ("like cures like"). So that's really old news.

Quote:

Chloroquine is a lysosomotropic drug. It is a weak base, uncharged at neutral pH while it carries a positive charge at acidic pH. Owing to this property chloroquine is selectively accumulated inside lysosomes. The uncharged compound rapidly diffuses through the plasma and lysosomal membranes, while once charged the compound becomes trapped inside the acidic lysosomal compartment of the parasite. This may lead to the generation of concentration gradient of several orders of
magnitude.

The intracellular trophozoite feeds on the haemoglobin of the red blood cell that serves as a source of amino acids. Digestion of the globin protein takes place inside the Plasmodium lysosome resulting in the generation of free haem (ferriprotoporphyrin IX, FP). The latter is insoluble and precipitates in the form of a black malaria pigment inside the lysosomes. Chloroquine in the lysosome interferes with pigment formation and the FP-chloroquine complex is highly toxic to the parasite.

http://www.icp.ucl.ac.be/~opperd/par..._o_action.html

Now explain the like cures like bit to me again......

[Corallinus]

The malarial remedy that Hahnemann first proved was Peruvian Bark - China. It is also known as the remedy CINCHONA OFFICIANALIS. He took this remedy is extremely small doses and then potentised it and this is how it cured malaria.

It is a cure for malaria when given in potentised form and when the full picture fits - the totality of the symptoms. That is the principle of 'like cures like'.

[Rolfe]

Hahnemann and cinchona bark.

Quote:

The vivid description of symptoms which Hahnemann experienced and described in 1790 after 'four drams of good China', is an excellent report of a hypersensivity state to quinine. Hahnemann's four drams of good China is fifteen grams of Cinchona bark powder, which contains between 400 to 500 milligrams of quinine. This represents the therapeutic or suppressive dose of quinine, a dose, which has been taken by millions of people in the past one hundred and fifty years with minimal, or no side effects.

It can be concluded that Hahnemann suffered from hypersensitivity to quinine. This means that the fundamental doctrine of homeopathy - Similia Similibus Curentur - is based on a pathological condition of its founder, Dr.Samuel Hahnemann, an allergy to quinine.

Note, this wasn't "extremely small doses", it was the normal dose. Hahnemann didn't start the infinitesimals thing until after he'd killed a few people by trying out "like cures like" with some pretty vicious substances in fairly large doses. (Reference is here.)

Quote:

Hahnemann's original records on his patients detail his prescribing many noxious substances according to the doctrine of similia similibus curentur ("like cures like"). For stomach pains he regularly prescribed quarter-ounce "doses" of mercury. He instructed one poor soul to take half an ounce of sulfuric acid in the morning and another half-ounce later that day. A purported healing system that Hahnemann asserted God had revealed to him was having devilish effects on his patients, who were "dropping like flies."

It's actually been known for more than 150 years that the effects of cinchona bark Hahnemann recorded were apparently peculiar to himself, and not experienced by the majority of people taking the same dose. (From "Homoeopathy and its Kindred Delusions".)

Quote:

M. Double, a well-known medical writer and a physician of high standing in Paris, had occasion so long ago as 1801, before he had heard of Homeopathy, to make experiments upon Cinchona, or Peruvian bark. He and several others took the drug in every kind of dose for four months, and the fever it is pretended by Hahnemann to excite never was produced.

M. Bonnet, President of the Royal Society of Medicine of Bordeaux, had occasion to observe many soldiers during the Peninsular War, who made use of Cinchona as a preservative against different diseases, - but he never found it to produce the pretended paroxysms.

Of course, once Hahnemann had moved on to proving magic water rather than the native substances, things got even more subjective....

Rolfe.

Edited to add most of it, as I was thinking as I went along.