If God does not exist, can anything be morally wrong? - Page 3

Myriad · 1st July 2012, 11:12 AM

Actually, in Christianity (at least, the Bible-literal versions), God's laws are not the direct source of human morality. That would be the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, conferring knowledge of good and evil (i.e. knowledge of morality), which God didn't even want humans to have!

Hence, the divine laws throughout the Old Testament aren't moral laws; they're just laws, enacted by right of might. So whether or not they happen to conform to any fruit-derived human notions of morality is basically irrelevant. That's why some do agree (do not steal), some don't (stone your children if they transgress), and some seem unrelated to any moral principle either way (don't mix fibers). Amazingly similar to the kinds of laws a powerful human king would enact.

The New Testament complicates things in that regard.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Ryokan · 1st July 2012, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by KlLLUMINATI

Most if not all belief systems that believe in a higher power have moral teaching or moral compass.

Most, if not all, belief systems that don't believe in a higher power have moral teachings or moral compasses as well.

Now what?

pakeha · 1st July 2012, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by KlLLUMINATI

It is not about whether or not "god" exists the question is if "god" does not exist can anything be morally wrong?

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

Yes. Many things can be morally wrong, because morality is a code of behavior that members of a community agree to....

I'll give a +1 to this answer.
KILLUMINATI, you've received a wide range of answers and I look forward to seeing your reactions to them.
Welcome to the Forum.

SezMe · 1st July 2012, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Twiler

I think that believers in objective morality think that point 2 only occurs because people are living in a state of denial.

Good point.

Jack by the hedge · 1st July 2012, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by KlLLUMINATI

Most if not all belief systems that believe in a higher power have moral teaching or moral compass.

Belief systems which do not involve any gods have moral teachings too. Buddhism seems like a good example.

simper · 1st July 2012, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by KlLLUMINATI

If God does not exist, can anything be morally wrong?

Discuss............

Are you a troll? Havnt read the thread, only opened it because it was on the recent threads list when I logged on. Your question just seems too stupid to even contemplate.

Aridas · 1st July 2012, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by simper

Are you a troll? Havnt read the thread, only opened it because it was on the recent threads list when I logged on. Your question just seems too stupid to even contemplate.

Likely not a troll. Intentionally, at least, just given the sheer number of theists that have been taught that without God, objective morality could not exist and that objective morality does exist.

simper · 1st July 2012, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

Likely not a troll. Intentionally, at least, just given the sheer number of theists that have been taught that without God, objective morality could not exist and that objective morality does exist.

Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Dennett etc have destoyed this argument. Why take a 3 thread argument just to say "Dont be a silly billy".

Gawdzilla · 1st July 2012, 02:23 PM

Take God away from moral and all you're left with is...

...everything you started with.

I Ratant · 1st July 2012, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

I imagine 'morals' will be defined as 'MY god says'.

.
ftfy.

Paulhoff · 1st July 2012, 05:11 PM

Well now, since there isn't any god and we have morals, the question means nothing.

Paul

Gawdzilla · 2nd July 2012, 03:24 AM

Anybody got a god that's more moral than the people who worship it?

tsig · 2nd July 2012, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Anybody got a god that's more moral than the people who worship it?

No, strangely enough people always seem to have a god that agrees totally with their morals.

Lamuella · 2nd July 2012, 08:10 AM

Somehow, I managed not to stab anyone in the face today.

I know, as someone who does not believe in any kind of god or any kind of ultimate justice, you'd think I would commit any horrible act I could, and yet somehow I didn't. I didn't steal anything either.

Why didn't I do any of these things?

Because there's no god. Because there's no ultimate justice. There's just me and several billion other people on a planet with a limited amount of resources, all breathing the same air and having an effect on each other.

I won't go to hell if I murder someone, I'll just make the world worse.
I won't go to heaven if I give money to charity, I'll just make the world a bit better (depending on the charity).

So, the only thing that will make this world good or bad is me and what I do. And you and what you do. Dad's not going to come home and ground us, so we have to keep order for ourselves.

I try not to hurt people, because I don't want to be hurt and I don't want other people to be hurt. There isn't a god, so I have the responsibility.

dlorde · 2nd July 2012, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by Lamuella

... I try not to hurt people, because I don't want to be hurt and I don't want other people to be hurt. There isn't a god, so I have the responsibility.

This ^

Lamuella · 2nd July 2012, 08:19 AM

I once heard an argument that I'm not sure if I agree with but I think brings up a good point.

I've heard it said that the measure of someone's morality is how they act when they think nobody's watching. It's why the difference between public morality and private vice is such a big deal. If you're a great guy until nobody's looking, you're not a great guy.

People who believe in a god who judges their behaviour think they are always being watched. Any action they take is, as far as they are concerned, in the sight of God.

So how can we say they are moral?

dlorde · 2nd July 2012, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by tsig

No, strangely enough people always seem to have a god that agrees totally with their morals.

There is actually research to support this.

Careyp74 · 2nd July 2012, 08:33 AM

I would like to play devil's advocate for a minute. Something just dawned on me, and went back and re-read the entire thread. It kinda makes more sense if you think of Killuminati as an Atheist that has a question about morals. (note, in the future, K, when posting a thread you should state your position on what you are posting.)

Where is it said that he is a christian, or that he believes in God? (perhaps he is either or both, that is why I am asking, I have not seen it)

He get's thrown in to the pile pretty quickly in this thread, without stating any of his own beliefs. The part I like the most is this one:

Originally Posted by JoeBentley

There's hundreds of Gods who's compasses all point in different directions. How do you know you're following the right one?

Originally Posted by KlLLUMINATI

You're assuming you know what God I follow but that does not matter in this discussion. Most if not all belief systems that believe in a higher power have moral teaching or moral compass. Either morality is subjective or objective.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Joe's question didn't depend on knowing which god you believe in.

No, his question didn't depend on it, but pretty much shows that he is assuming that K is theistic. K's response to me sounds like something I would say if everyone just immediately assumed I was theistic too. Perhap's his god is Richard Dawkins.

KingMerv00 · 2nd July 2012, 08:37 AM

Take your pick:

Potential "yes" answers to the OP:

1. Yes because humans define "morality".
2. Yes because there is an objective morality defined by biology.
3. Yes because if God didn't exist, a nonJudeo-Christian god might.

Potential "no" answer to the OP:

1. No. Morality cannot be determined objectively without God. Now what? (See Objection #3 below.)
2. No. We lack free will and thus the ability to be "moral" in any meaningful way. (This answer could apply whether God exists or not.)
3. No. The the interplay of our environment and personal perspective make it pragmatically impossible to judge something as right or wrong even if an objective standard exists.
4. No. God exists, has defined "objective morality" and encoded it into the universe but his definitions seem arbitrary and capricious to me so it is hard to be sure whether or not God is sane.

Potential objections to the title question itself:

1. God had no more authority to define "morality" than we do so the "if" clause of the question is not needed.
2. It is rude to ask a loaded question, ask for the opinions of others but fail to give your own because it is often seen as a cheap attempt to grab the rhetorical high ground. It allows you to attack the premises and conclusions and allows you to avoid the same level of scrutiny because you don't reveal any of your own premises or conclusions.
3. I suspect this is indirect attempt to prove the existence of God by appealing the consequences of an amoral universe. If that is true, please note that none of the above answers make God LIKELY to exist, only that you WISH he did.

Edit: To avoid being rude, I suppose I should say I most closely associate with "Yes #1". The others are posted as valid backup arguments with my personal favorite being objection #1.

Mister Agenda · 2nd July 2012, 08:52 AM

If God DOES exist, can anything he commands be morally wrong?

Welcome, Killuminati. I recommend choosing to respond only to the posts that make the best point. We don't expect you to reply to every single response, but it's best to skip the ones that don't advance the discussion.

laca · 2nd July 2012, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by Careyp74

I would like to play devil's advocate for a minute. Something just dawned on me, and went back and re-read the entire thread. It kinda makes more sense if you think of Killuminati as an Atheist that has a question about morals. (note, in the future, K, when posting a thread you should state your position on what you are posting.)

Where is it said that he is a christian, or that he believes in God? (perhaps he is either or both, that is why I am asking, I have not seen it)

He get's thrown in to the pile pretty quickly in this thread, without stating any of his own beliefs. The part I like the most is this one:

No, his question didn't depend on it, but pretty much shows that he is assuming that K is theistic. K's response to me sounds like something I would say if everyone just immediately assumed I was theistic too.

Well, maybe you better say something like "You're assuming you know that I follow a God" so that people don't misunderstand you.

Originally Posted by Careyp74

Perhap's his god is Richard Dawkins.

Perhaps, but that's highly unlikely, given this thread.

JJM 777 · 2nd July 2012, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by BStrong

Your actor does not have the authority to force their will upon the victim of the act.

Do any actors exist who have the authority to force their will upon the ~~victim~~ target of their act?

Originally Posted by Aridas

Is there any particular reason why you think that it would matter?

Caught by whom, and when, quite essentially defines what this captor considers to be right and wrong in life. Times they are a-changing.

IDB87 · 2nd July 2012, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by KlLLUMINATI

What is your moral grounding what makes an action right or wrong?

Empathy.

Careyp74 · 2nd July 2012, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by laca

Well, maybe you better say something like "You're assuming you know that I follow a God" so that people don't misunderstand you.

And maybe cats should just eat the mice without playing with them first.

Originally Posted by laca

Perhaps, but that's highly unlikely, given this thread.

What about the thread makes you think that?

KingMerv00 · 2nd July 2012, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by Mister Agenda

If God DOES exist, can anything he commands be morally wrong?

What if he commands you to disobey next command he gives you?

I Ratant · 2nd July 2012, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by KingMerv00

What if he commands you to disobey next command he gives you?

.
Considering the messengers used to get the commands to us, that is and probably has been an SOP for the big guy.

laca · 2nd July 2012, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by Careyp74

And maybe cats should just eat the mice without playing with them first.

Yeah, because that's just like expressing oneself clearly...

Originally Posted by Careyp74

What about the thread makes you think that?

Everything.

Hokulele · 2nd July 2012, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by Careyp74

I would like to play devil's advocate for a minute. Something just dawned on me, and went back and re-read the entire thread. It kinda makes more sense if you think of Killuminati as an Atheist that has a question about morals. (note, in the future, K, when posting a thread you should state your position on what you are posting.)

Where is it said that he is a christian, or that he believes in God? (perhaps he is either or both, that is why I am asking, I have not seen it)

He get's thrown in to the pile pretty quickly in this thread, without stating any of his own beliefs. The part I like the most is this one:

No, his question didn't depend on it, but pretty much shows that he is assuming that K is theistic. K's response to me sounds like something I would say if everyone just immediately assumed I was theistic too. Perhap's his god is Richard Dawkins.

In one of other threads, the OP makes it fairly clear that either he/she is a theist, or his/her sarcasm is very dry and straight-faced.

Careyp74 · 2nd July 2012, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by Hokulele

In one of other threads, the OP makes it fairly clear that either he/she is a theist, or his/her sarcasm is very dry and straight-faced.

OK, saw that now. Nevermind.

Careyp74 · 2nd July 2012, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by laca

Yeah, because that's just like expressing oneself clearly...

Everything.

Wasn't trying to say it isn't best to express yourself clearly, but when you are obviously having fun with the other posters, stopping it by expressing yourself clearly is counter effective. I was just wrongly attributing it to being misunderstood.

Aepervius · 2nd July 2012, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by KlLLUMINATI

It is not about whether or not "god" exists the question is if "god" does not exist can anything be morally wrong?

Rapind a child before torturing it to death.

I see that act as inherentely wrong whether there is a god or not.

Are you pretending that if you came to the conclusion that there is no god (in other word if you suddenly switched to atheism) suddenly those act would stop being wrong on their own ? Are you pretending that an atheist (say a budhist) would see such act as OK? After all they don't think you god exists no matter which you are trying NOT to disclose you might worship.

Because that is what your question amount "if "god" does not exist can anything be morally wrong?" the asnwer is pretty much obvious from my question above : independentely of religion people find some act abhorrent, that is a biological fact inrgained into us we want to protect our "litter" , or even other people "litter". Act of violence agaisnt kids is thus abhorrent to us on a so deep level.

Belz... · 2nd July 2012, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by KlLLUMINATI

If God does not exist, can anything be morally wrong?

Yes.

End thrad.

Belz... · 2nd July 2012, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Mister Agenda

If God DOES exist, can anything he commands be morally wrong?

A much better response than mine. Why is following the command of a supreme maker "moral" ? We already judge what's moral or not based on our upbringing and gut feelings, so god or no god, I see no difference.

Gord_in_Toronto · 2nd July 2012, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by KingMerv00

What if he commands you to disobey next command he gives you?

Or just to disobey Him? I get a headache.

Gord_in_Toronto · 2nd July 2012, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by dlorde

Originally Posted by Lamuella

. . .

I try not to hurt people, because I don't want to be hurt and I don't want other people to be hurt. There isn't a god, so I have the responsibility.

This ^

Philosophers (for whatever they are worth

) have given a lot of thought to this: Social_contract^WP.

TimCallahan · 2nd July 2012, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

KILLUMINATI: Regardless or whether or not any God exists, it's wrong to harm people and right to help them. I'll be happy to prove this to you - on one condition.

So, KILLUMINATI, are you interested in the condition?

Aridas · 2nd July 2012, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by JJM 777

Caught by whom, and when, quite essentially defines what this captor considers to be right and wrong in life. Times they are a-changing.

You... say that as if that wasn't a given in what I said, already. It was.

Lowpro · 2nd July 2012, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Careyp74

I would like to play devil's advocate for a minute. Something just dawned on me, and went back and re-read the entire thread. It kinda makes more sense if you think of Killuminati as an Atheist that has a question about morals. (note, in the future, K, when posting a thread you should state your position on what you are posting.)

Where is it said that he is a christian, or that he believes in God? (perhaps he is either or both, that is why I am asking, I have not seen it)

He get's thrown in to the pile pretty quickly in this thread, without stating any of his own beliefs. The part I like the most is this one:

No, his question didn't depend on it, but pretty much shows that he is assuming that K is theistic. K's response to me sounds like something I would say if everyone just immediately assumed I was theistic too. Perhap's his god is Richard Dawkins.

He's posted in another thread on his theistic position, though he hasn't directly mentioned a denomination but I'd bet my avatar it's Christian.

Gawdzilla · 2nd July 2012, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

No, strangely enough people always seem to have a god that agrees totally with their morals.

Almost as if they are wholly made-up?

zeggman · 2nd July 2012, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by KlLLUMINATI

Either morality is subjective or objective.

All morality is subjective. People who imagine gods which endorse their subjective morality like to pretend otherwise, but it's just pretend.

Without a subject which experiences pain and suffering, nothing is immoral. Cleaving in half a stone which no one cares about is not immoral. Blasting to dust statues which have deep cultural significance is immoral.

Often, an act which is itself immoral (cutting open a living creature) can be rendered moral because it prevents greater pain and suffering (the creature was cut to remove a tumor, thus saving the creature's life).

Gods are projections of human imaginations, but even if they were real their subjective opinions about what is right and wrong would still be subjective.

1st July 2012, 11:12 AM	#81
Myriad Hyperthetical Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 8,195	Actually, in Christianity (at least, the Bible-literal versions), God's laws are not the direct source of human morality. That would be the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, conferring knowledge of good and evil (i.e. knowledge of morality), which God didn't even want humans to have! Hence, the divine laws throughout the Old Testament aren't moral laws; they're just laws, enacted by right of might. So whether or not they happen to conform to any fruit-derived human notions of morality is basically irrelevant. That's why some do agree (do not steal), some don't (stone your children if they transgress), and some seem unrelated to any moral principle either way (don't mix fibers). Amazingly similar to the kinds of laws a powerful human king would enact. The New Testament complicates things in that regard. Respectfully, Myriad
	__________________ The cosmos is a vast Loom, with time the warp and space the weft. We are all fruit of the Loom, unaware.

1st July 2012, 11:49 AM	#83
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 7,957	Originally Posted by KlLLUMINATI It is not about whether or not "god" exists the question is if "god" does not exist can anything be morally wrong? Originally Posted by Foster Zygote Yes. Many things can be morally wrong, because morality is a code of behavior that members of a community agree to.... I'll give a +1 to this answer. KILLUMINATI, you've received a wide range of answers and I look forward to seeing your reactions to them. Welcome to the Forum.
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 7,957	__________________ To a conspiracy theorist, having double standards just means that they have twice as many standards. carlitos

1st July 2012, 01:11 PM	#86
simper Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 318	Originally Posted by KlLLUMINATI If God does not exist, can anything be morally wrong? Discuss............ Are you a troll? Havnt read the thread, only opened it because it was on the recent threads list when I logged on. Your question just seems too stupid to even contemplate.
simper Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 318

1st July 2012, 01:33 PM	#87
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,107	Originally Posted by simper Are you a troll? Havnt read the thread, only opened it because it was on the recent threads list when I logged on. Your question just seems too stupid to even contemplate. Likely not a troll. Intentionally, at least, just given the sheer number of theists that have been taught that without God, objective morality could not exist and that objective morality does exist.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

1st July 2012, 02:16 PM	#88
simper Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 318	Originally Posted by Aridas Likely not a troll. Intentionally, at least, just given the sheer number of theists that have been taught that without God, objective morality could not exist and that objective morality does exist. Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Dennett etc have destoyed this argument. Why take a 3 thread argument just to say "Dont be a silly billy".
simper Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 318

1st July 2012, 11:30 AM	#82
Ryokan Insert something funny here Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Norway Posts: 8,166	Originally Posted by KlLLUMINATI Most if not all belief systems that believe in a higher power have moral teaching or moral compass. Most, if not all, belief systems that don't believe in a higher power have moral teachings or moral compasses as well. Now what?

1st July 2012, 12:33 PM	#84
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,361	Originally Posted by Twiler I think that believers in objective morality think that point 2 only occurs because people are living in a state of denial. Good point.

1st July 2012, 01:00 PM	#85
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,399	Originally Posted by KlLLUMINATI Most if not all belief systems that believe in a higher power have moral teaching or moral compass. Belief systems which do not involve any gods have moral teachings too. Buddhism seems like a good example.

1st July 2012, 02:23 PM	#89
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,349	Take God away from moral and all you're left with is... ...everything you started with.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

1st July 2012, 04:13 PM	#90
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by tsig I imagine 'morals' will be defined as 'MY god says'. . ftfy.

1st July 2012, 05:11 PM	#91
Paulhoff You can't expect perfection. Join Date: May 2005 Location: South Florida Posts: 12,570	Well now, since there isn't any god and we have morals, the question means nothing. Paul
	__________________ For our money "IN WHICH GOD DO YOU TRUST" Much worse than the Question not asked, is the Answer not Given Don't accept an answer that can't be questioned - God is Surperfluous A society fails when ignorance outweighs knowledge Science doesn’t know everything, but religion doesn’t know anything Life is so horrent and also so beautiful, but without it there is nothing

2nd July 2012, 03:24 AM	#92
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,349	Anybody got a god that's more moral than the people who worship it?
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

2nd July 2012, 07:13 AM	#93
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,635	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Anybody got a god that's more moral than the people who worship it? No, strangely enough people always seem to have a god that agrees totally with their morals.

2nd July 2012, 08:10 AM	#94
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480	Somehow, I managed not to stab anyone in the face today. I know, as someone who does not believe in any kind of god or any kind of ultimate justice, you'd think I would commit any horrible act I could, and yet somehow I didn't. I didn't steal anything either. Why didn't I do any of these things? Because there's no god. Because there's no ultimate justice. There's just me and several billion other people on a planet with a limited amount of resources, all breathing the same air and having an effect on each other. I won't go to hell if I murder someone, I'll just make the world worse. I won't go to heaven if I give money to charity, I'll just make the world a bit better (depending on the charity). So, the only thing that will make this world good or bad is me and what I do. And you and what you do. Dad's not going to come home and ground us, so we have to keep order for ourselves. I try not to hurt people, because I don't want to be hurt and I don't want other people to be hurt. There isn't a god, so I have the responsibility.
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480

2nd July 2012, 08:15 AM	#95
dlorde Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,645	Originally Posted by Lamuella ... I try not to hurt people, because I don't want to be hurt and I don't want other people to be hurt. There isn't a god, so I have the responsibility. This ^
dlorde Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,645	__________________ Simple probability tells us that we should expect coincidences, and simple psychology tells us that we'll remember the ones we notice...

2nd July 2012, 08:19 AM	#96
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480	I once heard an argument that I'm not sure if I agree with but I think brings up a good point. I've heard it said that the measure of someone's morality is how they act when they think nobody's watching. It's why the difference between public morality and private vice is such a big deal. If you're a great guy until nobody's looking, you're not a great guy. People who believe in a god who judges their behaviour think they are always being watched. Any action they take is, as far as they are concerned, in the sight of God. So how can we say they are moral?
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480

2nd July 2012, 08:25 AM	#97
dlorde Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,645	Originally Posted by tsig No, strangely enough people always seem to have a god that agrees totally with their morals. There is actually research to support this.
dlorde Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,645	__________________ Simple probability tells us that we should expect coincidences, and simple psychology tells us that we'll remember the ones we notice...

2nd July 2012, 08:33 AM	#98
Careyp74 Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Trevose, PA Posts: 3,407	I would like to play devil's advocate for a minute. Something just dawned on me, and went back and re-read the entire thread. It kinda makes more sense if you think of Killuminati as an Atheist that has a question about morals. (note, in the future, K, when posting a thread you should state your position on what you are posting.) Where is it said that he is a christian, or that he believes in God? (perhaps he is either or both, that is why I am asking, I have not seen it) He get's thrown in to the pile pretty quickly in this thread, without stating any of his own beliefs. The part I like the most is this one: Originally Posted by JoeBentley There's hundreds of Gods who's compasses all point in different directions. How do you know you're following the right one? Originally Posted by KlLLUMINATI You're assuming you know what God I follow but that does not matter in this discussion. Most if not all belief systems that believe in a higher power have moral teaching or moral compass. Either morality is subjective or objective. Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Joe's question didn't depend on knowing which god you believe in. No, his question didn't depend on it, but pretty much shows that he is assuming that K is theistic. K's response to me sounds like something I would say if everyone just immediately assumed I was theistic too. Perhap's his god is Richard Dawkins.

2nd July 2012, 08:37 AM	#99
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA...USA Posts: 14,482	Take your pick: Potential "yes" answers to the OP: 1. Yes because humans define "morality". 2. Yes because there is an objective morality defined by biology. 3. Yes because if God didn't exist, a nonJudeo-Christian god might. Potential "no" answer to the OP: 1. No. Morality cannot be determined objectively without God. Now what? (See Objection #3 below.) 2. No. We lack free will and thus the ability to be "moral" in any meaningful way. (This answer could apply whether God exists or not.) 3. No. The the interplay of our environment and personal perspective make it pragmatically impossible to judge something as right or wrong even if an objective standard exists. 4. No. God exists, has defined "objective morality" and encoded it into the universe but his definitions seem arbitrary and capricious to me so it is hard to be sure whether or not God is sane. Potential objections to the title question itself: 1. God had no more authority to define "morality" than we do so the "if" clause of the question is not needed. 2. It is rude to ask a loaded question, ask for the opinions of others but fail to give your own because it is often seen as a cheap attempt to grab the rhetorical high ground. It allows you to attack the premises and conclusions and allows you to avoid the same level of scrutiny because you don't reveal any of your own premises or conclusions. 3. I suspect this is indirect attempt to prove the existence of God by appealing the consequences of an amoral universe. If that is true, please note that none of the above answers make God LIKELY to exist, only that you WISH he did. Edit: To avoid being rude, I suppose I should say I most closely associate with "Yes #1". The others are posted as valid backup arguments with my personal favorite being objection #1.
	__________________ If man came from dust, why is there still dust? Last edited by KingMerv00; 2nd July 2012 at 09:05 AM.

2nd July 2012, 08:52 AM	#100
Mister Agenda Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 2,619	If God DOES exist, can anything he commands be morally wrong? Welcome, Killuminati. I recommend choosing to respond only to the posts that make the best point. We don't expect you to reply to every single response, but it's best to skip the ones that don't advance the discussion.

2nd July 2012, 08:58 AM	#101
laca Illuminator Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 3,161	Originally Posted by Careyp74 I would like to play devil's advocate for a minute. Something just dawned on me, and went back and re-read the entire thread. It kinda makes more sense if you think of Killuminati as an Atheist that has a question about morals. (note, in the future, K, when posting a thread you should state your position on what you are posting.) Where is it said that he is a christian, or that he believes in God? (perhaps he is either or both, that is why I am asking, I have not seen it) He get's thrown in to the pile pretty quickly in this thread, without stating any of his own beliefs. The part I like the most is this one: No, his question didn't depend on it, but pretty much shows that he is assuming that K is theistic. K's response to me sounds like something I would say if everyone just immediately assumed I was theistic too. Well, maybe you better say something like "You're assuming you know that I follow a God" so that people don't misunderstand you. Originally Posted by Careyp74 Perhap's his god is Richard Dawkins. Perhaps, but that's highly unlikely, given this thread.
laca Illuminator Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 3,161

2nd July 2012, 09:06 AM	#102
JJM 777 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 3,175	Originally Posted by BStrong Your actor does not have the authority to force their will upon the victim of the act. Do any actors exist who have the authority to force their will upon the ~~victim~~ target of their act? Originally Posted by Aridas Is there any particular reason why you think that it would matter? Caught by whom, and when, quite essentially defines what this captor considers to be right and wrong in life. Times they are a-changing.
	Last edited by JJM 777; 2nd July 2012 at 09:07 AM.

2nd July 2012, 09:07 AM	#103
IDB87 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: In the Grass Posts: 3,414	Originally Posted by KlLLUMINATI What is your moral grounding what makes an action right or wrong? Empathy.
	__________________ It's guaranteed I'm overreacting.

2nd July 2012, 09:08 AM	#104
Careyp74 Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Trevose, PA Posts: 3,407	Originally Posted by laca Well, maybe you better say something like "You're assuming you know that I follow a God" so that people don't misunderstand you. And maybe cats should just eat the mice without playing with them first. Originally Posted by laca Perhaps, but that's highly unlikely, given this thread. What about the thread makes you think that?

2nd July 2012, 09:11 AM	#105
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA...USA Posts: 14,482	Originally Posted by Mister Agenda If God DOES exist, can anything he commands be morally wrong? What if he commands you to disobey next command he gives you?
	__________________ If man came from dust, why is there still dust?

2nd July 2012, 09:13 AM	#106
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by KingMerv00 What if he commands you to disobey next command he gives you? . Considering the messengers used to get the commands to us, that is and probably has been an SOP for the big guy.

2nd July 2012, 09:16 AM	#107
laca Illuminator Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 3,161	Originally Posted by Careyp74 And maybe cats should just eat the mice without playing with them first. Yeah, because that's just like expressing oneself clearly... Originally Posted by Careyp74 What about the thread makes you think that? Everything.
laca Illuminator Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 3,161

2nd July 2012, 09:18 AM	#108
Hokulele Official Nemesis Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Trying to decide whether to set defenses against an army, or against mole rats. Posts: 27,265	Originally Posted by Careyp74 I would like to play devil's advocate for a minute. Something just dawned on me, and went back and re-read the entire thread. It kinda makes more sense if you think of Killuminati as an Atheist that has a question about morals. (note, in the future, K, when posting a thread you should state your position on what you are posting.) Where is it said that he is a christian, or that he believes in God? (perhaps he is either or both, that is why I am asking, I have not seen it) He get's thrown in to the pile pretty quickly in this thread, without stating any of his own beliefs. The part I like the most is this one: No, his question didn't depend on it, but pretty much shows that he is assuming that K is theistic. K's response to me sounds like something I would say if everyone just immediately assumed I was theistic too. Perhap's his god is Richard Dawkins. In one of other threads, the OP makes it fairly clear that either he/she is a theist, or his/her sarcasm is very dry and straight-faced.

2nd July 2012, 09:42 AM	#109
Careyp74 Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Trevose, PA Posts: 3,407	Originally Posted by Hokulele In one of other threads, the OP makes it fairly clear that either he/she is a theist, or his/her sarcasm is very dry and straight-faced. OK, saw that now. Nevermind.

2nd July 2012, 09:45 AM	#110
Careyp74 Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Trevose, PA Posts: 3,407	Originally Posted by laca Yeah, because that's just like expressing oneself clearly... Everything. Wasn't trying to say it isn't best to express yourself clearly, but when you are obviously having fun with the other posters, stopping it by expressing yourself clearly is counter effective. I was just wrongly attributing it to being misunderstood.

2nd July 2012, 10:10 AM	#111
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,730	Originally Posted by KlLLUMINATI It is not about whether or not "god" exists the question is if "god" does not exist can anything be morally wrong? Rapind a child before torturing it to death. I see that act as inherentely wrong whether there is a god or not. Are you pretending that if you came to the conclusion that there is no god (in other word if you suddenly switched to atheism) suddenly those act would stop being wrong on their own ? Are you pretending that an atheist (say a budhist) would see such act as OK? After all they don't think you god exists no matter which you are trying NOT to disclose you might worship. Because that is what your question amount "if "god" does not exist can anything be morally wrong?" the asnwer is pretty much obvious from my question above : independentely of religion people find some act abhorrent, that is a biological fact inrgained into us we want to protect our "litter" , or even other people "litter". Act of violence agaisnt kids is thus abhorrent to us on a so deep level.
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life.

2nd July 2012, 10:31 AM	#112
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,397	Originally Posted by KlLLUMINATI If God does not exist, can anything be morally wrong? Yes. End thrad.
	__________________ The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za: "In the interests of time and space, it is not unreasonable to cite one point at a time. Citing 30 is the equivalent of citing none. Obviously." - Robert Prey "Physical evidence must be observed and interpreted by witnesses which makes it subjective and subject to mistakes and to fraud." - Robert Prey

2nd July 2012, 10:32 AM	#113
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,397	Originally Posted by Mister Agenda If God DOES exist, can anything he commands be morally wrong? A much better response than mine. Why is following the command of a supreme maker "moral" ? We already judge what's moral or not based on our upbringing and gut feelings, so god or no god, I see no difference.
	__________________ The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za: "In the interests of time and space, it is not unreasonable to cite one point at a time. Citing 30 is the equivalent of citing none. Obviously." - Robert Prey "Physical evidence must be observed and interpreted by witnesses which makes it subjective and subject to mistakes and to fraud." - Robert Prey

2nd July 2012, 10:49 AM	#114
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,409	Originally Posted by KingMerv00 What if he commands you to disobey next command he gives you? Or just to disobey Him? I get a headache.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

2nd July 2012, 10:54 AM	#115
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,409	Originally Posted by dlorde Originally Posted by Lamuella . . . I try not to hurt people, because I don't want to be hurt and I don't want other people to be hurt. There isn't a god, so I have the responsibility. This ^ Philosophers (for whatever they are worth ) have given a lot of thought to this: Social_contract^WP.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick