Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father

[Rrose Selavy]

Originally Posted by Justinian2

Again, you put a different spin on the story than by people who knew him. He was sick. His wife was put in jail.

Here is a quote from Wikipedia:



This was the era that we lived in. It's actually not too different now.

Ah yes funny you mention McCarthyism. Not that LRH ever stooped that low.....

Quote:

Apart from what he considered to be inherent dangers in allowing anyone to audit anyone, Winter had also begun to doubt whether the state of 'clear' was realistically obtainable. Finally, he was frustrated by the fact that the Research Foundation was making absolutely no attempt to conduct any serious scientific research, which was one of its avowed aims. He had voiced his growing concern on several occasions, only to be airily dismissed by Hubbard. It became clear to Winter that he had no alternative but to resign.[7]
Art Ceppos was largely in sympathy with Winter and also submitted his resignation. Hubbard's reaction was typically immoderate. Angry and bitter at what he considered to be a betrayal by two of his earliest supporters, he spread the word that Winter and Ceppos had been plotting to seize
control of the Foundation and had consequently been 'forced' to resign.[8]
It was not Hubbard's style to be satisfied with simply blackening the reputation of his enemies - he wanted revenge. An opportunity presented itself in the unlovely form of Senator Joe McCarthy, the self-seeking demagogue who, in February 1950, had accused the State Department of being riddled with Communists and Communist sympathizers. The atmosphere of fear and suspicion generated during the witch-hunts that followed cast a shadow across America; almost nothing was worse, during the era of McCarthyism, than to be a 'Commie', or be thought to be a 'Commie'. On 3 November 1950, the general counsel of the Hubbard Dianetic Research Foundation in Elizabeth contacted the FBI and said that Art Ceppos, president of Hermitage House, was a Communist sympathizer who had recently tried to get hold of the Foundation's mailing list of sixteen thousand names which would be 'valuable to anyone interested in circulating Communist party literature'.[9]

from Russell Miller's Biog.

[Chris L]

Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy

Ah yes funny you mention McCarthyism. Not that LRH ever stooped that low.....



from Russell Miller's Biog.

I guess when you're saving the planet, the phrase "morally repugnant" has no meaning.

[Justinian2]

Originally Posted by Chris L

All of which has nothing to do with what we are talking about, as Hubbard died about 30 years after that. His wife was indicted on organizing an effort to spy on those looking into what the CoS was getting into. She did it on his behalf and with his permission. He is also the one who wrote the infamous Fair Play memo where he tells the faithful that silencing critics by any means necessary is perfectly fine. You really need to read a genuine (not church scrubbed) biography of LRH, otherwise you will be lost in this conversation.

I've talked to thirty people that met Hubbard personally. Without reservation, they thought highly of Hubbard.

If you read any police-type report, you realize that their total intent is to be 100% negative with exaggerations, and speculation galore. Unfortunately we live in a world of dishonest government. The CIA term for partial dishonesty is called plausible deniability.

[Brainache]

Originally Posted by Justinian2

I've talked to thirty people that met Hubbard personally. Without reservation, they thought highly of Hubbard.

If you read any police-type report, you realize that their total intent is to be 100% negative with exaggerations, and speculation galore. Unfortunately we live in a world of dishonest government. The CIA term for partial dishonesty is called plausible deniability.

And the Scientology term for total dishonesty is apparently "Fair Play".

[Justinian2]

Originally Posted by Brainache

And the Scientology term for total dishonesty is apparently "Fair Play".

I have actually not seen that term used by Scientology. I've seen "Fair Play" used a lot by government, lawyers, police and judges. However, Scientologists don't as a rule believe in punishment.

Police officers will shoot someone dead and frequently get away with it by saying "I was afraid for my life". That's a sort of fair play, isn't it?

Scientologists at the level of clear or above think punishment is a manifestation of being stuck in the past which they call psychotic. Scientologists think that punishing or controlling bodies is VERY low on the tone scale. Consequently, a clear doesn't punish. He will support restitution, but he will not punish.

The irony is that the term "Fair Play" is used against Scientologists more than it is used by them simply because "Fair Play" is the game non Scientologists use every day.

[Justinian2]

Originally Posted by Chris L

I guess when you're saving the planet, the phrase "morally repugnant" has no meaning.

I would think that the planet is "morally repugnant". Any planet that allows the sale of AK47s is "morally repugnant" in my book.

[DuvalHMFIC]

Holy hell reading through all of Justinian's responses, am I ever glad that I ran away from the Church like a cheetah when I did.

You spit out these obviously pre-fabricated lines, all of which have undertones of Hubbard's "philosophy." I'm not sure I've seen one unique thought that was your own.

Again man, if it works for you, great (I guess). I'm just extremely happy I didn't walk down that road.

[hgc]

Originally Posted by Justinian2

Scientologists at the level of clear or above think punishment is a manifestation of being stuck in the past which they call psychotic.

Do Scientologists at that level not realize that the word "psychotic" already means something else entirely? Why not make up a new word to describe your punishment fantasy?

[Krikkiter]

Originally Posted by Justinian2

The most objectionable part to me was the Miscavige era timeshare sales type techniques the Church of Miscavige employed.

The next objectionable thing was the Miscavige era 'Sec checking' the main church would use. The tortorous part of this was it was called "NOT AUDITING" which is not "Nots Auditing" but is actually the reverse of auditing. The auditor waits for you to confess to a crime/overt while you are paying the hundreds of dollars an hour for his services.

The Freezone has never done any of the above.

The Church of Scientology under Hubbard and before the FBI infiltration and MisCavige, did this much differently and even got good results. Comparing these processes under Hubbard to those under Miscavige is like comparing the use of pepper as a spice instead of as the main course.

Miscavige was never an auditor and never a clear or OT. He rose to the top possibly with a forged signature. LRH may have granted him the right to sign his signature in order to escape prosecution for Scientology's counter espionage against the FBI.

No no, you missed my point. Scientology - so-called freezone or not - is objectionable. That's it. Done. It doesn't matter who's interpreting what, the basic ideas are the same and it's all a massive con (to pull chicks and make money by the looks of it - what's that saying..? In this country, you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power... ahh never mind).

You crazy freezone people still use those silly electronic dead ends don't you?

And worse even than that, you pretend that it was all great back in the day when good ole Ron was a preachin the truth about alien invasions and brainwashing implants. Damned Miscarriage just corrupted all the great ideas.

FSM

[Krikkiter]

Originally Posted by Justinian2

I would think that the planet is "morally repugnant". Any planet that allows the sale of AK47s is "morally repugnant" in my book.

So you find the sale of automatic firearms morally repugnant. And what are you doing about that?

[Justinian2]

Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC

Holy hell reading through all of Justinian's responses, am I ever glad that I ran away from the Church like a cheetah when I did.

You spit out these obviously pre-fabricated lines, all of which have undertones of Hubbard's "philosophy." I'm not sure I've seen one unique thought that was your own.

Again man, if it works for you, great (I guess). I'm just extremely happy I didn't walk down that road.

To avoid the Miscavige's Church of Scientology is one thing - although it can be good if you sufficient wealth to pay for enough auditing to release you from the addictive need for their church. [If you don't think that was an original thought ("I'm not sure I've seen one unique thought that was your own.") then the dark side is with you.]

It's quite another thing to call all Scientologists the same (A=A) or to lump all Scientology together (the Freezone and the Church).

I was talking prevously about the desire of non-clears for punishment when you replied. If that implies that you love to punish people you classify as bad, then I'm glad that I'm not your friend.

[Justinian2]

Originally Posted by hgc

Do Scientologists at that level not realize that the word "psychotic" already means something else entirely? Why not make up a new word to describe your punishment fantasy?

Now you criticize Scientology for not making up their own word?

[Krikkiter]

Originally Posted by Justinian2

Now you criticize Scientology for not making up their own word?

"Psychotic" already has an accepted, generally understood meaning. Get your own word and stop trying to corrupt ours.

[DuvalHMFIC]

Originally Posted by Justinian2

To avoid the Miscavige's Church of Scientology is one thing - although it can be good if you sufficient wealth to pay for enough auditing to release you from the addictive need for their church. [If you don't think that was an original thought ("I'm not sure I've seen one unique thought that was your own.") then the dark side is with you.]

It's quite another thing to call all Scientologists the same (A=A) or to lump all Scientology together (the Freezone and the Church).

I was talking prevously about the desire of non-clears for punishment when you replied. If that implies that you love to punish people you classify as bad, then I'm glad that I'm not your friend.

Sounds to me like Freezone propaganda, but maybe I'm wrong. And even still, you feel the need to defend it to the bitter end "although it can be good..." Audited to release you from the addictive need for the church? Do you actually see what you just typed there? The church can fix the problem-that THEY created.

[Justinian2]

Originally Posted by Krikkiter

So you find the sale of automatic firearms morally repugnant. And what are you doing about that?

I communicate to newspapers and politicians more that most others and I have a blog.

Politicians just do what they think their constituents want. Newspapers just do what their readers want. Unfortunately, the constituents and readers are very non-clear, so I work towards making people more clear in a very tiny way.

[hgc]

Originally Posted by Justinian2

Now you criticize Scientology for not making up their own word?

Yes. When you have a new concept for which there isn't a word, make up a new one. Don't re-purpose an existing word that means something else entirely.

[Krikkiter]

Originally Posted by Justinian2

I communicate to newspapers and politicians more that most others and I have a blog.

Politicians just do what they think their constituents want. Newspapers just do what their readers want. Unfortunately, the constituents and readers are very non-clear, so I work towards making people more clear in a very tiny way.

Yeah but by doing that you're kinda saying "listen to me... I'm nuts." Why don't you leave the Scientology crap out of it. You know, up until I saw saw the highlighted words I almost had some respect for you.

[Justinian2]

Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC

Sounds to me like Freezone propaganda, but maybe I'm wrong. And even still, you feel the need to defend it to the bitter end "although it can be good..." Audited to release you from the addictive need for the church? Do you actually see what you just typed there? The church can fix the problem-that THEY created.

That's what I meant. Miscavige's church has/had problems.

The Freezone doesn't have the problem of cultish addiction. You fly in for a week, get some services and return home for a couple of months. The Freezone doesn't have the group addiction that a cult you are with 24-7 would have.

The Freezone is quite a bit less expensive, but they need to have larger classes. If I were a kid, I would do exactly what I did. I would go to first to the COS and then switch to the Freezone.

Yours is an example of propaganda. Freezone auditing is exactly the opposite. Freezone auditing frees a person from the effects of propaganda. In the Freezone you discuss the effects that life has had on you and decide on the best way they should have handled that problem or piece of propaganda.

[Krikkiter]

Originally Posted by Justinian2

That's what I meant. Miscavige's church has/had problems.

The Freezone doesn't have the problem of cultish addiction. You fly in for a week, get some services and return home for a couple of months. The Freezone doesn't have the group addiction that a cult you are with 24-7 would have.

The Freezone is quite a bit less expensive, but they need to have larger classes. If I were a kid, I would do exactly what I did. I would go to first to the COS and then switch to the Freezone.

Yours is an example of propaganda. Freezone auditing is exactly the opposite. Freezone auditing frees a person from the effects of propaganda. In the Freezone you discuss the effects that life has had on you and decide on the best way they should have handled that problem or piece of propaganda.

Soooo.... much.... woo. Must... log... out...

[Justinian2]

Originally Posted by Krikkiter

Yeah but by doing that you're kinda saying "listen to me... I'm nuts." Why don't you leave the Scientology crap out of it. You know, up until I saw saw the highlighted words I almost had some respect for you.

Clear is a term that I'm using to mean more sane than normal. A lot of people have clear moments, especially at their job. James Holmes was thought to be sane before he exhibited his insanity. I'm trying to use a term that would exclude people that aren't sane even if society brands them as sane.

What does sanity mean to you?
What does insanity mean to you?
You would probably use alternate words. What are they?

[shuttlt]

Hi Justinian,

I've got a naive question. I hope it hasn't been asked already.

Do you claim that Scientology is "True" in some way that is different and perhaps goes beyond the way Catholocism, or Islam, or New Age woo etc are "True"? For myself, I see them as "True" at a personal or community level, but not as True desciption of physical reality. Does that make sense? Is the claim that Scientology is one of many spiritual paths that may have some personal validity, and may help you find your way in life, improve your interactions with others, give you a community, teach you some practical skills. Or is the claim that there are in fact real things called Thetans (or what ever it is that Freezone people believe in) and that there is a reason for believing in them over and above the reasons for beliving in Thor?

I'm curious.

Personally I'm perfectly willing to believe that some people find auditing helpful.

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by Justinian2

Clear is a term that I'm using to mean more sane than normal. A lot of people have clear moments, especially at their job. James Holmes was thought to be sane before he exhibited his insanity. I'm trying to use a term that would exclude people that aren't sane even if society brands them as sane.

What does sanity mean to you?
What does insanity mean to you?
You would probably use alternate words. What are they?

Is the origin of "clear" the expression "a moment of clarity". That's the vibe I'm getting at the moment. To me that isn't really about sanity, or insanity, so much as a moment where you feel your awareness of your situation, or some problem is heightened and you achieve a God's eye view as it were.

[marplots]

Originally Posted by shuttlt

Is the origin of "clear" the expression "a moment of clarity". That's the vibe I'm getting at the moment. To me that isn't really about sanity, or insanity, so much as a moment where you feel your awareness of your situation, or some problem is heightened and you achieve a God's eye view as it were.

Try it this way. If someone is suffering delusions (and "psychotic" does fit) and then abandons those delusions, they are experiencing the world clearly. Hence, "clear."

Alternatively, I like the word "clean". As in scrubbing out the junk and revealing the person underneath. Clarity, cleanliness, being lucid -- all of these are getting at the same idea.

Scientology is often framed by outsiders as adding a layer of bunk. From the inside, it is removing a layer (or many) of bunk that already exists.

Instead of focusing on perceived damage that Scientology does, it might be better to look at why people join, what they get out of it, and whether or not it improves their lives. "When the patient is ready, the physician appears."

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by marplots

Try it this way. If someone is suffering delusions (and "psychotic" does fit) and then abandons those delusions, they are experiencing the world clearly. Hence, "clear."

Alternatively, I like the word "clean". As in scrubbing out the junk and revealing the person underneath. Clarity, cleanliness, being lucid -- all of these are getting at the same idea.

Scientology is often framed by outsiders as adding a layer of bunk. From the inside, it is removing a layer (or many) of bunk that already exists.

Instead of focusing on perceived damage that Scientology does, it might be better to look at why people join, what they get out of it, and whether or not it improves their lives. "When the patient is ready, the physician appears."

Sounds kind of like Sufism to me, at least what little I know of it, or Buddhism. Strip away all the baggage and attain some promised ideal state.

Is it more "True" than Sufism?

[InkBlotTest]

So does all this mean that "Auditing" is another word for psychological counselling and "Clear" is another way of saying that you have come to terms with the crap life throws at you?

If it is, why wouldn't you go to a profressional and not bother with the bad spaceman story? I'm sure it would cost a lot less.

IBT

[Justinian2]

People in Scientology sessions spontaneously started going past track to earlier lives. If you believe in past lives, then the existence of the thetan or spirit is natural.

It's easy to believe that you lived a previous life while in session. Later, you are skeptical about the past life you visited. Then you do it again and you are sure. But later you again become skeptical. At any rate, using my own words and ideas, auditing does seem to access your inner 'program'/'programming' and is beneficial.

In this day and age of computers, designing a virtual reality is possible. If the virtual reality is possible and equal to this life, then thetans, past lives, heaven, hell, angels and spirits are all possible. How probable are they? Nobody can yet say.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Justinian2

To avoid the Miscavige's Church of Scientology is one thing - although it can be good if you sufficient wealth to pay for enough auditing to release you from the addictive need for their church. [If you don't think that was an original thought ("I'm not sure I've seen one unique thought that was your own.") then the dark side is with you.]

It's quite another thing to call all Scientologists the same (A=A) or to lump all Scientology together (the Freezone and the Church).

I was talking prevously about the desire of non-clears for punishment when you replied. If that implies that you love to punish people you classify as bad, then I'm glad that I'm not your friend.

Auditing to escape Scientology?

[Chris L]

Originally Posted by marplots

Instead of focusing on perceived damage that Scientology does, it might be better to look at why people join, what they get out of it, and whether or not it improves their lives. "When the patient is ready, the physician appears."

In the case of Lisa McPherson, the damage was more than just a perception. A group of grown ups stood around and watched a woman die, all because what little powers of critical thinking they had were crushed under the weight of church dogma. None of the people responsible for looking after her had the common sense to see what was happening or the courage to do something about it. They preferred to stick their thumbs up their asses and chant buzz words created by a hack Sci Fi writer.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC

Holy hell reading through all of Justinian's responses, am I ever glad that I ran away from the Church like a cheetah when I did.

You spit out these obviously pre-fabricated lines, all of which have undertones of Hubbard's "philosophy." I'm not sure I've seen one unique thought that was your own.

Again man, if it works for you, great (I guess). I'm just extremely happy I didn't walk down that road.

The fun thing is to get them so far off message that they have to return to the mothership for a mind tune.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by marplots

Try it this way. If someone is suffering delusions (and "psychotic" does fit) and then abandons those delusions, they are experiencing the world clearly. Hence, "clear."

Alternatively, I like the word "clean". As in scrubbing out the junk and revealing the person underneath. Clarity, cleanliness, being lucid -- all of these are getting at the same idea.

Scientology is often framed by outsiders as adding a layer of bunk. From the inside, it is removing a layer (or many) of bunk that already exists.

Instead of focusing on perceived damage that Scientology does, it might be better to look at why people join, what they get out of it, and whether or not it improves their lives. "When the patient is ready, the physician appears."

So it's brainwashing.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Justinian2

I would think that the planet is "morally repugnant". Any planet that allows the sale of AK47s is "morally repugnant" in my book.

Maybe Xenu should just wish us all into the volcanoes. Again.

[InkBlotTest]

Originally Posted by Justinian2

People in Scientology sessions spontaneously started going past track to earlier lives. If you believe in past lives, then the existence of the thetan or spirit is natural.

It's easy to believe that you lived a previous life while in session. Later, you are skeptical about the past life you visited. Then you do it again and you are sure. But later you again become skeptical. At any rate, using my own words and ideas, auditing does seem to access your inner 'program'/'programming' and is beneficial.

In this day and age of computers, designing a virtual reality is possible. If the virtual reality is possible and equal to this life, then thetans, past lives, heaven, hell, angels and spirits are all possible. How probable are they? Nobody can yet say.

Para 1 - "Past track" - Gibberish phrase that means nothing
Para 2 - How can you be sure and then not be sure? I looked up the word sure and it means "in no doubt". Also, I ask again is Auditing another word for psycological evaluation?
Para 3 - Woo gibberish

IBT

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by Justinian2

People in Scientology sessions spontaneously started going past track to earlier lives. If you believe in past lives, then the existence of the thetan or spirit is natural.

It's easy to believe that you lived a previous life while in session. Later, you are skeptical about the past life you visited. Then you do it again and you are sure. But later you again become skeptical. At any rate, using my own words and ideas, auditing does seem to access your inner 'program'/'programming' and is beneficial.

In this day and age of computers, designing a virtual reality is possible. If the virtual reality is possible and equal to this life, then thetans, past lives, heaven, hell, angels and spirits are all possible. How probable are they? Nobody can yet say.

But none of this is any Truer than Sufism, it just happens to be the Truth that you have chosen, no? Past life regression done by Scientologists can't be done in a way that brings back any evidence any more than past life regression done by a hypnotist can. Isn't it just like Geller - Scientology can do all kinds for incredible things (past lives, go clear, etc...) that happen to coincide exactly with what would be possible if it was all achieved by boring, everyday means - wishful thinking, etc...

What do you think the likelihood is that Scientology is wishful thinking and a random pile of techniques some of which work (and the rest don't work at all) in a boring every day way, like any other talking cure, and in fact Sufism is the Truth?

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by Justinian2

People in Scientology sessions spontaneously started going past track to earlier lives. If you believe in past lives, then the existence of the thetan or spirit is natural.

It's easy to believe that you lived a previous life while in session. Later, you are skeptical about the past life you visited. Then you do it again and you are sure. But later you again become skeptical. At any rate, using my own words and ideas, auditing does seem to access your inner 'program'/'programming' and is beneficial.

In this day and age of computers, designing a virtual reality is possible. If the virtual reality is possible and equal to this life, then thetans, past lives, heaven, hell, angels and spirits are all possible. How probable are they? Nobody can yet say.

I don't think it moves things forwards to say that Thetans are probably true if past life regression is true, or that Thetans are true if the world as we know it is in fact virtual reality being artifically simulated somehow in the true reality.

I might as well defend a belief in Islam by saying that it makes perfect sense if you believe that there is no God but Allah. Taking one claim that your audience doesn't accept and linking it to another claim you know they won't accept either doesn't help much. At best it allows us to empathise a bit, but it brings us no closer to agreeing with you.

[marplots]

Originally Posted by shuttlt

Sounds kind of like Sufism to me, at least what little I know of it, or Buddhism. Strip away all the baggage and attain some promised ideal state.

Is it more "True" than Sufism?

I don't know. I'm not familiar with Sufism. I would guess that truth and falsehood aren't good metrics though.

[marplots]

Originally Posted by tsig

So it's brainwashing.

How about a word with less baggage? "Brain cleansing" comes to mind.

Surely you are familiar with the notion of suddenly understanding something that was previously obscured? Perhaps calculus suddenly 'clicked' or you turned some inner switch and understood your parents in a new way. It is very personal, but I think it happens now and again to most of us.

[marplots]

Originally Posted by InkBlotTest

Para 1 - "Past track" - Gibberish phrase that means nothing
Para 2 - How can you be sure and then not be sure? I looked up the word sure and it means "in no doubt". Also, I ask again is Auditing another word for psycological evaluation?
Para 3 - Woo gibberish

IBT

Hubbard clicked on an important thing that's embodied in the new-speak. The purpose is to create words that don't come with the connections familiar words have. It's similar to how each scientific discipline creates its own terms as a kind of shorthand and with the desired specificity. I think physics runs into problems because it so often reuses terms that have everyday meanings, so that "force", "energy" and others are the cause of some miscommunication.

The price paid is that adherents run the risk of triggering a feeling of "woo gibberish" when speaking to those outside the discipline. "Tone scale" is as confusing as "Hilbert space" to someone who doesn't have the conceptual background. It's also why Scientologists so often avoid discussing things with non-Scientologists -- two different languages.

[Chris L]

Originally Posted by marplots

How about a word with less baggage? "Brain cleansing" comes to mind.

Surely you are familiar with the notion of suddenly understanding something that was previously obscured? Perhaps calculus suddenly 'clicked' or you turned some inner switch and understood your parents in a new way. It is very personal, but I think it happens now and again to most of us.

The difference is that calculus is something you demonstrate to other people. Past lives and other "epiphanies" are not. So as far as the rest of the universe is concerned, you are still just imagining things.

[hgc]

Originally Posted by marplots

How about a word with less baggage? "Brain cleansing" comes to mind.

Surely you are familiar with the notion of suddenly understanding something that was previously obscured? Perhaps calculus suddenly 'clicked' or you turned some inner switch and understood your parents in a new way. It is very personal, but I think it happens now and again to most of us.

So by learning Calculus, you become more sane?

[hgc]

Originally Posted by marplots

It's similar to how each scientific discipline creates its own terms as a kind of shorthand and with the desired specificity. I think physics runs into problems because it so often reuses terms that have everyday meanings, so that "force", "energy" and others are the cause of some miscommunication.

In scientific disciplines and other groups of common interest, jargon arises out of a need to communicate efficiently about concepts with which group members are all likely familiar.

Physics has no problem with the terms "force" and "energy." It's no problem that these terms have meanings much less rigorous and specific in everyday speech. It's only when the ignorati apply those words in their everyday meaning to explicit scientific concepts that things go haywire. Read: Fashionable Nonsense.

Quote:

The price paid is that adherents run the risk of triggering a feeling of "woo gibberish" when speaking to those outside the discipline. "Tone scale" is as confusing as "Hilbert space" to someone who doesn't have the conceptual background. It's also why Scientologists so often avoid discussing things with non-Scientologists -- two different languages.

"Tone scale" is a fine term, with a very specific meaning that is well understood by members and observers Scientology. I'm not too bothered by the re-use of "tone" in this context -- it already has broad variations in meaning in common speech (as opposed to, say, "psychotic"). The problem with "tone scale" is that it describes a completely non-existent entity that is believed by Scn adherents to be real. It is woo gibberish. I say that not because I don't understand it, but because I do.