Proof that Christians are being persecuted; or------

kedo1981 · 7th July 2012, 04:06 PM

Proof that Christians are being persecuted;
or proof that they should stop acting like they are above the law just because they serve the Jesus flavored kool-aid (raspberry with a hint of cherry).
This from one of those “right of Fox news” web sights.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/chri...bible-studies/

My godless take
It' a ongoing cat fight between the city and a “holier that thou” who thinks he can just build a church on his property with out complying with building codes and hold loud Jesus feists any time he wants in a residential neighborhood.
Course the real fun is reading the whack job commits that follow the story.

fuelair · 7th July 2012, 05:31 PM

feasts? fights? feistys? fists? farts?(ok, it's a stretch)

fuelair · 7th July 2012, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by kedo1981

Proof that Christians are being persecuted;
or proof that they should stop acting like they are above the law just because they serve the Jesus flavored kool-aid (raspberry with a hint of cherry).
This from one of those “right of Fox news” web sights.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/chri...bible-studies/

My godless take
It' a ongoing cat fight between the city and a “holier that thou” who thinks he can just build a church on his property with out complying with building codes and hold loud Jesus feists any time he wants in a residential neighborhood.
Course the real fun is reading the whack job commits that follow the story.

Silly xtians - they'll be prosecuted, not persecuted. Though there are some I do not at all mind persecuting - at least verbally.

ehcks · 7th July 2012, 05:35 PM

He built a church in his backyard then lied to the city about what it would be used for.

When enough neighbors complained about cars parked in the street, they investigated and found he broke 67 different building codes, including a few fire codes.

Travis · 7th July 2012, 05:39 PM

Christians will complain they are oppressed even as they turn America into a theocracy where speaking ill of Jesus gets you a bullet to the head.

PhantomWolf · 7th July 2012, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by kedo1981

Proof that Christians are being persecuted;
or proof that they should stop acting like they are above the law just because they serve the Jesus flavored kool-aid (raspberry with a hint of cherry).
This from one of those “right of Fox news” web sights.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/chri...bible-studies/

My godless take
It' a ongoing cat fight between the city and a “holier that thou” who thinks he can just build a church on his property with out complying with building codes and hold loud Jesus feists any time he wants in a residential neighborhood.
Course the real fun is reading the whack job commits that follow the story.

Assuming the article detailed is correct, and there isn't more to the story (both rather big assumptions) then your take involved speculation not in evidence. A Bilble study group is not the same as a church.

Would the city react the same way to someone hosting monday night football parties for 15-20 people every week? I doubt it.

I'd love to see the other regulations he was charged with. I'm pretty sure that if I was hosting poker games for 20 people in a shed out the back here, I wouldn't be expected to have exit and handicapped signs up.

Since the issue seems to, by the article, predate the building, I'd suspect that, assuming the article is correct, he's PO'ed someone in office somehow.

PhantomWolf · 7th July 2012, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by ehcks

He built a church in his backyard then lied to the city about what it would be used for.

Evidence?

ehcks · 7th July 2012, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Evidence?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ity-rules.html

Quote:

However, Miss Hill, the chief assistant city prosecutor, said Salman has ‘mischaracterized the facts’ of the permit. She said that he was given a permit to convert a garage into a game room, not a church or anything else for that matter.

psionl0 · 7th July 2012, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Salman is the owner of Mighty Mike’s Burgers — and he is also an ordained pastor. He and his wife have been hosting Bible studies on their 4.6-acre property since 2005. The gatherings were originally attended by as many as 15 people.

In 2007, they received a letter from the city informing them that the Bible studies were not permitted in their living room because it was in violation of the construction code.

A few months later, members of the Phoenix Fire Dept. broke up the family’s Good Friday fellowship. As many as 20 people were in their backyard eating a meal when firefighters threatened to call the police – unless their guests left the premises.

I know Salman won't get any sympathy here but . . . . . unbelievable!

BStrong · 7th July 2012, 06:09 PM

He's not being targeted because of faith, he's being targeted because he wants to thumb his nose at city and county government.

We had our share in the city and county, and a percentage of them wanted to play the god card.

Didn't work any better in California than it does in Arizona.

PhantomWolf · 7th July 2012, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by ehcks

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ity-rules.html

Thanks for the further info. It'd be nice to know the definition of a "church" too. I would have thought that a building would have to be a public building to require handicapped parking and ramps, since there is no point in having those things unless someone coming to the building requires them, and if as stated in the article, those coming where merely family and friends, then the building was not open to the pubic.

I still suspect that he has managed to PO someone, possibly a neighbour with a friend on the council.

psionl0 · 7th July 2012, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by BStrong

He's not being targeted because of faith, he's being targeted because he wants to thumb his nose at city and county government.

Yeah! Fancy thinking that you can have a private gathering in your own home without first getting the permission of the authorities.

BStrong · 7th July 2012, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Yeah! Fancy thinking that you can have a private gathering in your own home without first getting the permission of the authorities.

I'd bet that there's more to the story than what is included in the link, but I don't gas enough to whip out the google fu.

Manopolus · 7th July 2012, 07:27 PM

The other part of the story...

PhantomWolf · 7th July 2012, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by Manopolus

The other part of the story...

Hmmm, now that is interesting, and well worth the read. My final conclusion. They're all in the wrong. From this article it's clear we're not talking a small garage for bible study, he wants a church, and thus if it's to be a public building, which seems to be the case, he has to follow the rules. However, having said that, it's also clear that he's PO'ed the neighbours and that the actions the city has been taking against him have been a direct result of them not liking him, the way he practices religion, or his past, and quite frankly the city should not be acting like a bunch of bully boys for his neighbours.

Truely a rather sad situation all around.

UnrepentantSinner · 7th July 2012, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by kedo1981

This from one of those “right of Fox news” web sights.

The Blaze is Glenn Beck's version of Wing Nut Daily or Free Republic.

kedo1981 · 8th July 2012, 06:24 AM

Funny that, the guys family emigrated from Jordan and were Christians.
If he was Jordanian Muslim emigrant wanting to build a “church” in his back yard, how would that change Glen Becks perspective.

Manopolus · 8th July 2012, 07:06 AM

I think the biggest question as to whether it's a "home Bible study" or a public church would have to do with whether he's taken money/donations from his little congregation, for the building or otherwise.

Next on my list of questions would be whether the general public was invited, by advertising or inference, or if it was invitation only.

Using someone else's metaphor: A gathering to watch Monday Night Football and drink beer every week would be by invitation only. If you take money for the beer, let anybody show up, and possibly even advertise in some way, you're running a sports bar and need a liquor license, proper zoning, etc.

Ladewig · 8th July 2012, 08:54 AM

If you try to file a letter with the city government claiming that you have diplomatic immunity from all US law because you are an ambassador from Heaven, then it is appropriate to label you as a crackpot

If you impersonate a police officer to scare the boyfriend of a congregant's daughter, then you are a chucklehead as well.

But, even crackpots and chuckleheads have certain rights in this country. As it stands, the line is too blurry for me to say who is right and who is wrong.

Nosi · 8th July 2012, 10:35 AM

This guy did something to SERIOUSLY cheese off the neighbors. There's a reason why zoning laws exist.

Ladewig · 8th July 2012, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Nosi

This guy did something to SERIOUSLY cheese off the neighbors. There's a reason why zoning laws exist.

But he did call the city to ask if his neighborhood was zoned in such a way as to prevent churches and he was told that the neighborhood could have churches.

As for cheesing off neighbors, I am pretty sure that if your neighbors say "hey, let's reconsider the building a church thing because it is going to hurt everyone's property values" and you say "if you folks were real Christians you wouldn't mind lower property values as long as God's Word is being spread" then you have reached the point where Bugs Bunny stands up and says "of course, you know: this means war."

which was snagged from the Marx Brothers, but nobody does it like the Bugs.

Marduk · 8th July 2012, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Travis

Christians will complain they are oppressed even as they turn America into a theocracy where speaking ill of Jesus gets you a bullet to the head.

Nail em up I say
nail some sense into them

Lowpro · 8th July 2012, 02:51 PM

Seems more the story of two asshats colliding.

commandlinegamer · 8th July 2012, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by ehcks

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ity-rules.html

Rule 94*: Thou shalt not cite any Associated Newspapers publication, inc. Daily Mail, Mail on Sunday, Metro, Mailonline as evidence.

* - proposed. Seconders please?

Lowpro · 8th July 2012, 06:34 PM

I'd support it but then it's also fun to disintegrate Daily Fail claims too.

psionl0 · 8th July 2012, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by Marduk

Nail em up I say
nail some sense into them

Today, the christians.
Tomorrow . . . . . . ?

ehcks · 8th July 2012, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by commandlinegamer

Rule 94*: Thou shalt not cite any Associated Newspapers publication, inc. Daily Mail, Mail on Sunday, Metro, Mailonline as evidence.

* - proposed. Seconders please?

I just thought it was interesting that the Daily Fail had a more balanced article than this thread started with.

Manopolus posted the one I should have looked for.

AvalonXQ · 8th July 2012, 07:45 PM

The last few years, I attended a large church with a building that could only be accessed by driving through a residential area. It is a major hassle on the residents, even though we followed all local and zoning laws, had our own on-site lots for cars, and worked hard to try to reduce the negative impact.

Zoning laws exist for a reason. Your use of your land can affect your neighbors, and it's reasonable for your neighbors to have certain expectations as to the uses of nearby properties when they choose to move there.

I have little sympathy for a man trying to turn a residential property into a large church without regard for local laws.

Ladewig · 8th July 2012, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

The last few years, I attended a large church with a building that could only be accessed by driving through a residential area. It is a major hassle on the residents, even though we followed all local and zoning laws, had our own on-site lots for cars, and worked hard to try to reduce the negative impact.

Zoning laws exist for a reason. Your use of your land can affect your neighbors, and it's reasonable for your neighbors to have certain expectations as to the uses of nearby properties when they choose to move there.

But building a church on his land is not necessarily in violation of the zoning codes. He called the city before breaking ground.

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

I have little sympathy for a man trying to turn a residential property into a large church without regard for local laws.

Part of the problem was he was trying to build a little church and the city said that churches are allowed only if they are the primary structure on the property, so to complete the plan, he had to increase the size of his building.

I am not saying he is in the right. I'm starting to believe that the best perspective might be to say everyone is wrong.

Nosi · 9th July 2012, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

But he did call the city to ask if his neighborhood was zoned in such a way as to prevent churches and he was told that the neighborhood could have churches.

As for cheesing off neighbors, I am pretty sure that if your neighbors say "hey, let's reconsider the building a church thing because it is going to hurt everyone's property values" and you say "if you folks were real Christians you wouldn't mind lower property values as long as God's Word is being spread" then you have reached the point where Bugs Bunny stands up and says "of course, you know: this means war."

which was snagged from the Marx Brothers, but nobody does it like the Bugs.

There's more to this than mere religion I think. Consider, there are more flavors of Christians than there are ice creams. If you want to nit pick the bottom of the garbage can, Warren Jeffs is 'Christian'.

dafydd · 9th July 2012, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Nosi

Warren Jeffs is 'Christian'.

So is Charles Manson.

Spindrift · 9th July 2012, 01:42 PM

The guy is a douche but he does have a right to legally build his church. It is allowed within the zoning code of Phoenix. And with RLUIPA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...ed_Persons_Act) the Feds will back him up.

The kicker to the whole thing, for those who didn't read the article, is that he doesn't have the money to build the church and won't unless his congregation gets bigger or he can sue Phoenix under RLUIPA and win himself a nice judgment.

Robrob · 9th July 2012, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Spindrift

The kicker to the whole thing, for those who didn't read the article, is that he doesn't have the money to build the church and won't unless his congregation gets bigger or he can sue Phoenix under RLUIPA and win himself a nice judgment.

A time honored economic plan. I think it's in the Bible somewhere...

Ladewig · 9th July 2012, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by Nosi

There's more to this than mere religion I think. Consider, there are more flavors of Christians than there are ice creams.

I can easily imagine replacing this guy's wanting to build a church with this guy wanting to build a 40-foot statue of George Washington and neither of the positions changing much.

"If you were a real American you wouldn't mind losing some of your property value to honor America's first president."

Ladewig · 9th July 2012, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by Robrob

A time honored economic plan. I think it's in the Bible somewhere...

Of course, Matthew 5:40 "And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well."

The tricky bit is getting the city to follow Jesus's words.

Spindrift · 9th July 2012, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

I can easily imagine replacing this guy's wanting to build a church with this guy wanting to build a 40-foot statue of George Washington and neither of the positions changing much.

"If you were a real American you wouldn't mind losing some of your property value to honor America's first president."

There positions wouldn't change much but there is the slight detail that churches ARE permitted in the neighborhood under the zoming regs, while I would doubt that 40 ft statues are.

I don't agree with him wanting to build his church in the middle of the neighborhood, but he is within the rules to do so.

psionl0 · 9th July 2012, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

I have little sympathy for a man trying to turn a residential property into a large church without regard for local laws.

Salmon's troubles with the city began long before he thought of putting a church building on his property.

The city was banning private meetings in his living room and even broke up a good friday gathering. I can understand something like that happening in communist Russia but the USA?

ponderingturtle · 10th July 2012, 03:11 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Salmon's troubles with the city began long before he thought of putting a church building on his property.

The city was banning private meetings in his living room and even broke up a good friday gathering. I can understand something like that happening in communist Russia but the USA?

Yea next you will need government approval to run a business or build something.on your own property.

psionl0 · 10th July 2012, 04:05 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Yea next you will need government approval to run a business or build something.on your own property.

Did you even read what you quoted?

ponderingturtle · 10th July 2012, 04:30 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Did you even read what you quoted?

Yes. There are all kinds of reasons why he could well legitimately run afoul of the law that was not accounted for in that blanket statement.

It could also be not legitimate. We don't have enough information about the details and history.

7th July 2012, 04:06 PM	#1
kedo1981 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: ohio Posts: 2,083	Proof that Christians are being persecuted; or------ Proof that Christians are being persecuted; or proof that they should stop acting like they are above the law just because they serve the Jesus flavored kool-aid (raspberry with a hint of cherry). This from one of those “right of Fox news” web sights. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/chri...bible-studies/ My godless take It' a ongoing cat fight between the city and a “holier that thou” who thinks he can just build a church on his property with out complying with building codes and hold loud Jesus feists any time he wants in a residential neighborhood. Course the real fun is reading the whack job commits that follow the story.
	__________________ "Prove all things, hold fast that which is good" (I Thessalonians 5:21) I readily admit I don’t know enough to say for sure that there is no God. But I do know enough so say that anyone who claims to know the mind and will of a being such as God is a liar. I have no problem with Jesus, but his fan club sucks!

7th July 2012, 05:31 PM	#2
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961	feasts? fights? feistys? fists? farts?(ok, it's a stretch)
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

7th July 2012, 05:33 PM	#3
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961	Originally Posted by kedo1981 Proof that Christians are being persecuted; or proof that they should stop acting like they are above the law just because they serve the Jesus flavored kool-aid (raspberry with a hint of cherry). This from one of those “right of Fox news” web sights. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/chri...bible-studies/ My godless take It' a ongoing cat fight between the city and a “holier that thou” who thinks he can just build a church on his property with out complying with building codes and hold loud Jesus feists any time he wants in a residential neighborhood. Course the real fun is reading the whack job commits that follow the story. Silly xtians - they'll be prosecuted, not persecuted. Though there are some I do not at all mind persecuting - at least verbally.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

7th July 2012, 05:35 PM	#4
ehcks Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,694	He built a church in his backyard then lied to the city about what it would be used for. When enough neighbors complained about cars parked in the street, they investigated and found he broke 67 different building codes, including a few fire codes.
ehcks Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,694	__________________ Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

7th July 2012, 05:39 PM	#5
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,954	Christians will complain they are oppressed even as they turn America into a theocracy where speaking ill of Jesus gets you a bullet to the head.
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Zingiber Officinale The Humor blog of some not crazy guy

7th July 2012, 05:48 PM	#6
PhantomWolf Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 9,962	Originally Posted by kedo1981 Proof that Christians are being persecuted; or proof that they should stop acting like they are above the law just because they serve the Jesus flavored kool-aid (raspberry with a hint of cherry). This from one of those “right of Fox news” web sights. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/chri...bible-studies/ My godless take It' a ongoing cat fight between the city and a “holier that thou” who thinks he can just build a church on his property with out complying with building codes and hold loud Jesus feists any time he wants in a residential neighborhood. Course the real fun is reading the whack job commits that follow the story. Assuming the article detailed is correct, and there isn't more to the story (both rather big assumptions) then your take involved speculation not in evidence. A Bilble study group is not the same as a church. Would the city react the same way to someone hosting monday night football parties for 15-20 people every week? I doubt it. I'd love to see the other regulations he was charged with. I'm pretty sure that if I was hosting poker games for 20 people in a shed out the back here, I wouldn't be expected to have exit and handicapped signs up. Since the issue seems to, by the article, predate the building, I'd suspect that, assuming the article is correct, he's PO'ed someone in office somehow.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics.

7th July 2012, 05:51 PM	#7
PhantomWolf Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 9,962	Originally Posted by ehcks He built a church in his backyard then lied to the city about what it would be used for. Evidence?
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics.

7th July 2012, 05:58 PM	#8
ehcks Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,694	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf Evidence? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ity-rules.html Quote: However, Miss Hill, the chief assistant city prosecutor, said Salman has ‘mischaracterized the facts’ of the permit. She said that he was given a permit to convert a garage into a game room, not a church or anything else for that matter.
ehcks Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,694	__________________ Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

7th July 2012, 06:04 PM	#9
psionl0 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°58'S 115°57'E Posts: 4,791	Quote: Salman is the owner of Mighty Mike’s Burgers — and he is also an ordained pastor. He and his wife have been hosting Bible studies on their 4.6-acre property since 2005. The gatherings were originally attended by as many as 15 people. In 2007, they received a letter from the city informing them that the Bible studies were not permitted in their living room because it was in violation of the construction code. A few months later, members of the Phoenix Fire Dept. broke up the family’s Good Friday fellowship. As many as 20 people were in their backyard eating a meal when firefighters threatened to call the police – unless their guests left the premises. I know Salman won't get any sympathy here but . . . . . unbelievable!

7th July 2012, 06:09 PM	#10
BStrong Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: California Posts: 3,825	He's not being targeted because of faith, he's being targeted because he wants to thumb his nose at city and county government. We had our share in the city and county, and a percentage of them wanted to play the god card. Didn't work any better in California than it does in Arizona.

7th July 2012, 06:12 PM	#11
PhantomWolf Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 9,962	Originally Posted by ehcks http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ity-rules.html Thanks for the further info. It'd be nice to know the definition of a "church" too. I would have thought that a building would have to be a public building to require handicapped parking and ramps, since there is no point in having those things unless someone coming to the building requires them, and if as stated in the article, those coming where merely family and friends, then the building was not open to the pubic. I still suspect that he has managed to PO someone, possibly a neighbour with a friend on the council.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics.

7th July 2012, 06:14 PM	#12
psionl0 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°58'S 115°57'E Posts: 4,791	Originally Posted by BStrong He's not being targeted because of faith, he's being targeted because he wants to thumb his nose at city and county government. Yeah! Fancy thinking that you can have a private gathering in your own home without first getting the permission of the authorities.

7th July 2012, 07:05 PM	#13
BStrong Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: California Posts: 3,825	Originally Posted by psionl0 Yeah! Fancy thinking that you can have a private gathering in your own home without first getting the permission of the authorities. I'd bet that there's more to the story than what is included in the link, but I don't gas enough to whip out the google fu.

7th July 2012, 07:27 PM	#14
Manopolus Metaphorical Anomaly Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Linn, Kansas (a.k.a. Dead center of Nowhere) Posts: 3,038	The other part of the story...

7th July 2012, 08:57 PM	#15
PhantomWolf Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 9,962	Originally Posted by Manopolus The other part of the story... Hmmm, now that is interesting, and well worth the read. My final conclusion. They're all in the wrong. From this article it's clear we're not talking a small garage for bible study, he wants a church, and thus if it's to be a public building, which seems to be the case, he has to follow the rules. However, having said that, it's also clear that he's PO'ed the neighbours and that the actions the city has been taking against him have been a direct result of them not liking him, the way he practices religion, or his past, and quite frankly the city should not be acting like a bunch of bully boys for his neighbours. Truely a rather sad situation all around.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics.

7th July 2012, 09:09 PM	#16
UnrepentantSinner A post by Alan Smithee Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: USAian is not a word Posts: 26,361	Originally Posted by kedo1981 This from one of those “right of Fox news” web sights. The Blaze is Glenn Beck's version of Wing Nut Daily or Free Republic.
	__________________ I am an American citizen who is part of American society and briefly served in the American armed forces. I use American dollars and pay taxes that support the American government. And yes, despite the editorial decison to change American politics to the nonsensical "USA politics" subforum, I follow and comment on American politics.

8th July 2012, 06:24 AM	#17
kedo1981 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: ohio Posts: 2,083	Funny that, the guys family emigrated from Jordan and were Christians. If he was Jordanian Muslim emigrant wanting to build a “church” in his back yard, how would that change Glen Becks perspective.
	__________________ "Prove all things, hold fast that which is good" (I Thessalonians 5:21) I readily admit I don’t know enough to say for sure that there is no God. But I do know enough so say that anyone who claims to know the mind and will of a being such as God is a liar. I have no problem with Jesus, but his fan club sucks! Last edited by kedo1981; 8th July 2012 at 08:24 AM.

8th July 2012, 07:06 AM	#18
Manopolus Metaphorical Anomaly Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Linn, Kansas (a.k.a. Dead center of Nowhere) Posts: 3,038	I think the biggest question as to whether it's a "home Bible study" or a public church would have to do with whether he's taken money/donations from his little congregation, for the building or otherwise. Next on my list of questions would be whether the general public was invited, by advertising or inference, or if it was invitation only. Using someone else's metaphor: A gathering to watch Monday Night Football and drink beer every week would be by invitation only. If you take money for the beer, let anybody show up, and possibly even advertise in some way, you're running a sports bar and need a liquor license, proper zoning, etc.
	Last edited by Manopolus; 8th July 2012 at 07:16 AM.

8th July 2012, 08:54 AM	#19
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,827	If you try to file a letter with the city government claiming that you have diplomatic immunity from all US law because you are an ambassador from Heaven, then it is appropriate to label you as a crackpot If you impersonate a police officer to scare the boyfriend of a congregant's daughter, then you are a chucklehead as well. But, even crackpots and chuckleheads have certain rights in this country. As it stands, the line is too blurry for me to say who is right and who is wrong.
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

8th July 2012, 10:35 AM	#20
Nosi Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 2,731	This guy did something to SERIOUSLY cheese off the neighbors. There's a reason why zoning laws exist.
Nosi Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 2,731	__________________ __________ Hiding from the

8th July 2012, 01:56 PM	#21
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,827	Originally Posted by Nosi This guy did something to SERIOUSLY cheese off the neighbors. There's a reason why zoning laws exist. But he did call the city to ask if his neighborhood was zoned in such a way as to prevent churches and he was told that the neighborhood could have churches. As for cheesing off neighbors, I am pretty sure that if your neighbors say "hey, let's reconsider the building a church thing because it is going to hurt everyone's property values" and you say "if you folks were real Christians you wouldn't mind lower property values as long as God's Word is being spread" then you have reached the point where Bugs Bunny stands up and says "of course, you know: this means war." which was snagged from the Marx Brothers, but nobody does it like the Bugs.
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board. Last edited by Ladewig; 8th July 2012 at 01:59 PM.

8th July 2012, 02:03 PM	#22
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by Travis Christians will complain they are oppressed even as they turn America into a theocracy where speaking ill of Jesus gets you a bullet to the head. Nail em up I say nail some sense into them

8th July 2012, 02:51 PM	#23
Lowpro Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 4,536	Seems more the story of two asshats colliding.
	__________________ "If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers

8th July 2012, 02:59 PM	#24
commandlinegamer Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Mazes of Menace Posts: 5,905	Originally Posted by ehcks http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ity-rules.html Rule 94: Thou shalt not cite any Associated Newspapers publication, inc. Daily Mail, Mail on Sunday, Metro, Mailonline as evidence. - proposed. Seconders please?
	__________________ He bade me take any rug in the house.

8th July 2012, 06:34 PM	#25
Lowpro Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 4,536	I'd support it but then it's also fun to disintegrate Daily Fail claims too.
	__________________ "If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers

8th July 2012, 06:36 PM	#26
psionl0 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°58'S 115°57'E Posts: 4,791	Originally Posted by Marduk Nail em up I say nail some sense into them Today, the christians. Tomorrow . . . . . . ?

8th July 2012, 07:34 PM	#27
ehcks Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,694	Originally Posted by commandlinegamer Rule 94: Thou shalt not cite any Associated Newspapers publication, inc. Daily Mail, Mail on Sunday, Metro, Mailonline as evidence. - proposed. Seconders please? I just thought it was interesting that the Daily Fail had a more balanced article than this thread started with. Manopolus posted the one I should have looked for.
ehcks Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,694	__________________ Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

8th July 2012, 07:45 PM	#28
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	The last few years, I attended a large church with a building that could only be accessed by driving through a residential area. It is a major hassle on the residents, even though we followed all local and zoning laws, had our own on-site lots for cars, and worked hard to try to reduce the negative impact. Zoning laws exist for a reason. Your use of your land can affect your neighbors, and it's reasonable for your neighbors to have certain expectations as to the uses of nearby properties when they choose to move there. I have little sympathy for a man trying to turn a residential property into a large church without regard for local laws.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

8th July 2012, 09:25 PM	#29
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,827	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ The last few years, I attended a large church with a building that could only be accessed by driving through a residential area. It is a major hassle on the residents, even though we followed all local and zoning laws, had our own on-site lots for cars, and worked hard to try to reduce the negative impact. Zoning laws exist for a reason. Your use of your land can affect your neighbors, and it's reasonable for your neighbors to have certain expectations as to the uses of nearby properties when they choose to move there. But building a church on his land is not necessarily in violation of the zoning codes. He called the city before breaking ground. Originally Posted by AvalonXQ I have little sympathy for a man trying to turn a residential property into a large church without regard for local laws. Part of the problem was he was trying to build a little church and the city said that churches are allowed only if they are the primary structure on the property, so to complete the plan, he had to increase the size of his building. I am not saying he is in the right. I'm starting to believe that the best perspective might be to say everyone is wrong.
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

9th July 2012, 11:32 AM	#30
Nosi Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 2,731	Originally Posted by Ladewig But he did call the city to ask if his neighborhood was zoned in such a way as to prevent churches and he was told that the neighborhood could have churches. As for cheesing off neighbors, I am pretty sure that if your neighbors say "hey, let's reconsider the building a church thing because it is going to hurt everyone's property values" and you say "if you folks were real Christians you wouldn't mind lower property values as long as God's Word is being spread" then you have reached the point where Bugs Bunny stands up and says "of course, you know: this means war." which was snagged from the Marx Brothers, but nobody does it like the Bugs. There's more to this than mere religion I think. Consider, there are more flavors of Christians than there are ice creams. If you want to nit pick the bottom of the garbage can, Warren Jeffs is 'Christian'.
Nosi Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 2,731	__________________ __________ Hiding from the

9th July 2012, 01:36 PM	#31
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,478	Originally Posted by Nosi Warren Jeffs is 'Christian'. So is Charles Manson.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

9th July 2012, 01:42 PM	#32
Spindrift Enturbulator Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 8,460	The guy is a douche but he does have a right to legally build his church. It is allowed within the zoning code of Phoenix. And with RLUIPA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...ed_Persons_Act) the Feds will back him up. The kicker to the whole thing, for those who didn't read the article, is that he doesn't have the money to build the church and won't unless his congregation gets bigger or he can sue Phoenix under RLUIPA and win himself a nice judgment.
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9th July 2012, 01:44 PM	#33
Robrob Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,660	Originally Posted by Spindrift The kicker to the whole thing, for those who didn't read the article, is that he doesn't have the money to build the church and won't unless his congregation gets bigger or he can sue Phoenix under RLUIPA and win himself a nice judgment. A time honored economic plan. I think it's in the Bible somewhere...
Robrob Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,660

9th July 2012, 08:19 PM	#34
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,827	Originally Posted by Nosi There's more to this than mere religion I think. Consider, there are more flavors of Christians than there are ice creams. I can easily imagine replacing this guy's wanting to build a church with this guy wanting to build a 40-foot statue of George Washington and neither of the positions changing much. "If you were a real American you wouldn't mind losing some of your property value to honor America's first president."
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

9th July 2012, 08:21 PM	#35
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,827	Originally Posted by Robrob A time honored economic plan. I think it's in the Bible somewhere... Of course, Matthew 5:40 "And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well." The tricky bit is getting the city to follow Jesus's words.
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.