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BenBurch · 30th July 2012, 06:51 AM

Joe, occurs to me that getting elected might be how Romney avoids taxes on that $100 Million. If he can get a tax bill making Ira withdrawal tax free (helps the little guys, doncha' know?) he can skate on those taxes.

DavidJames · 30th July 2012, 07:01 AM

Why doesn't Romney simply release his records and defend them. I doubt he did anything illegal. He could say, for example, I have a lot of money because I found a lucrative career, worked hard and made intelligent decisions.

Rather then hide, he could say he is the epitome of the American dream. As for tax issues, he could either defend his situation by saying it's designed to reward good choices and hard work or perhaps as an example of why he needs to be president to improve the tax situation.

BenBurch · 30th July 2012, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Why doesn't Romney simply release his records and defend them. I doubt he did anything illegal. He could say, for example, I have a lot of money because I found a lucrative career, worked hard and made intelligent decisions.

Rather then hide, he could say he is the epitome of the American dream. As for tax issues, he could either defend his situation by saying it's designed to reward good choices and hard work or perhaps as an example of why he needs to be president to improve the tax situation.

It's pretty plain that either he decided he doesn't respect us enough believe we deserve to know, or that the damage from not being honest with us is less bad than the damage disclosure would cause.

eeyore1954 · 30th July 2012, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Joe, occurs to me that getting elected might be how Romney avoids taxes on that $100 Million. If he can get a tax bill making Ira withdrawal tax free (helps the little guys, doncha' know?) he can skate on those taxes.

That could happen but do you really think that would fly in light of the fact the value of his IRA is known and it also goes against the theory of the IRA or any deferred plan.

eeyore1954 · 30th July 2012, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Why doesn't Romney simply release his records and defend them. I doubt he did anything illegal. He could say, for example, I have a lot of money because I found a lucrative career, worked hard and made intelligent decisions.

Rather then hide, he could say he is the epitome of the American dream. As for tax issues, he could either defend his situation by saying it's designed to reward good choices and hard work or perhaps as an example of why he needs to be president to improve the tax situation.

In my opinion he should have been releasing while he was governor.

BenBurch · 30th July 2012, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by eeyore1954

That could happen but do you really think that would fly in light of the fact the value of his IRA is known and it also goes against the theory of the IRA or any deferred plan.

Well, I don't think we were initially supposed to know about his IRA.

And I think how you sell it is you say, look, all these people were deprived of their IRA growth by the financial crisis, so they need help getting through retirement.

Unabogie · 30th July 2012, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

But remember, Bain dealt with other companies' stocks. His IRA could have been payment in the form of seriously undervalued stock in a company they knew would prosper. So it's not Bain stock we're necessarily talking about.

Bloomberg provides an example:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...gical-ira.html

So I looked up SEP IRAs just to make sure I understood them, and I concede that the money isn't tax free to withdraw, but there are MANY tax advantages to having $100M in one.

The way they work, as far as I can tell, is that the company makes those contributions at a maximum of around $50K a year (that's the current number). So that's tax free money from the company to you. That money then grows tax free. Meaning, that every year, had Mitt had that $100M in a normal investment account, he'd have owed taxes paid at normal income tax rates. I'm not a tax expert, but I believe he'd have gotten a 1099 INT every year, and that would have been for millions of dollars every year. Having the money stashed in a SEP IRA, means he's never paid a dime in taxes so far. Now when he does withdraw, which he must do starting next year, he will pay at normal income tax rates. But he's paying that rate on money that has grown tax free for 25 years or whatever.

So yeah, not tax free 100%, but a damn fine deal for people who can parlay $50K a year into $100M through the use of trickery in buying equity at rock bottom prices, and not something the rest of us get to take advantage of.

Skeptic Ginger · 30th July 2012, 07:59 AM

Mitt Romney’s $100M IRA: Gaming the System at Bain

It gives the rundown.

Unabogie · 30th July 2012, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Mitt Romney’s $100M IRA: Gaming the System at Bain

It gives the rundown.

From the article.

Quote:

However, if the plan was to fund one’s religious tithing with those tax-deferred dollars; that would be a really cheap way to fund the tithe with tax-privileged, false cost basis, taxpayer-subsidized dollars. And that is a hard-core benefit no matter how you cut it. It is almost as if the government is covering the bill.

So he could have done his LDS "payments" from this account, and since that money is tax deductible, he was essentially getting free money to the LDS?

BenBurch · 30th July 2012, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

From the article.

So he could have done his LDS "payments" from this account, and since that money is tax deductible, he was essentially getting free money to the LDS?

Leads me to ask how deeply the LDS expects to sup from the government trough once this crook is elected?

JoeTheJuggler · 30th July 2012, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

So he could have done his LDS "payments" from this account, and since that money is tax deductible, he was essentially getting free money to the LDS?

I don't get what this has to do with the issue of tax on the IRA. Any money he donates to the LDS is deductible.

Even if he actually worked and earned it the way most of us do. (I can hardly say that with a straight face.)

But that deduction is really a separate issue from whether or not he gets tax free money from the IRA.

JoeTheJuggler · 30th July 2012, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

So I looked up SEP IRAs just to make sure I understood them, and I concede that the money isn't tax free to withdraw, but there are MANY tax advantages to having $100M in one.

Of course there is. There's an important tax advantage to people who have very modest amounts of money in one as well. That's kind of the point. It encourages retirement savings.

JoeTheJuggler · 30th July 2012, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Joe, occurs to me that getting elected might be how Romney avoids taxes on that $100 Million. If he can get a tax bill making Ira withdrawal tax free (helps the little guys, doncha' know?) he can skate on those taxes.

I'm an opponent and critic of Romney's but this is a pretty thin argument. It's kind of on par with the argument that Obama wants to take away your guns.

And frankly, I don't think Romney would do any such thing now that he's on the national stage. (Especially if he were elected.) He's so wealthy, that the tax he would pay on liquidating his IRA for income would not be the least bit burdensome. I understand that you don't get so wealthy by blithely treating any tax burden as "not the least bit burdensome", but apparently he's after the office of POTUS now and not just wealth. If his only goal were to continue paying the least amount of tax he possibly can, he'd have done a lot better not to throw his hat in the ring.

JoeTheJuggler · 30th July 2012, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Why doesn't Romney simply release his records and defend them. I doubt he did anything illegal. He could say, for example, I have a lot of money because I found a lucrative career, worked hard and made intelligent decisions.

Rather then hide, he could say he is the epitome of the American dream. As for tax issues, he could either defend his situation by saying it's designed to reward good choices and hard work or perhaps as an example of why he needs to be president to improve the tax situation.

I can think of two good reasons that are both lumped in the calculation that the political damage of releasing them is probably greater than the political damage of continuing not to.

The first specific is: the "mountains" that can be made of "molehills" such as having $100 million in an IRA. He probably can explain how achieving this was all on the up and up, but it's not the sort of thing most people are very sympathetic to, and it seems like an abuse of something set up to help encourage personal retirement accounts (as opposed to relying only on Social Security or conventional employee pensions).

The second is the point I've made that in some instances his own personal finances belie the proposals he has made as a candidate for the POTUS. I mentioned, for example, that he continues to talk about a radical simplification of the tax code. His returns show that he is someone who has taken best advantage of the complexities of the tax code, and even argues for the necessity of such complexity (since it has to cover such a huge array of different situations). Also, his foreign investments argue against the idea that cutting taxes on the wealthy necessarily leads to U.S. job creation.

eeyore1954 · 30th July 2012, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

So I looked up SEP IRAs just to make sure I understood them, and I concede that the money isn't tax free to withdraw, but there are MANY tax advantages to having $100M in one.

The way they work, as far as I can tell, is that the company makes those contributions at a maximum of around $50K a year (that's the current number). So that's tax free money from the company to you. That money then grows tax free. Meaning, that every year, had Mitt had that $100M in a normal investment account, he'd have owed taxes paid at normal income tax rates. I'm not a tax expert, but I believe he'd have gotten a 1099 INT every year, and that would have been for millions of dollars every year. Having the money stashed in a SEP IRA, means he's never paid a dime in taxes so far. Now when he does withdraw, which he must do starting next year, he will pay at normal income tax rates. But he's paying that rate on money that has grown tax free for 25 years or whatever.

So yeah, not tax free 100%, but a damn fine deal for people who can parlay $50K a year into $100M through the use of trickery in buying equity at rock bottom prices, and not something the rest of us get to take advantage of.

But it is likely the overwhelming majority of the growth has been in capital appreciation. If he had bought shares in Bain or Dominoes or other stock and held it outside of an IRA he would not pay any gains until it is disposed anyway. He would have owed taxes on any dividends paid while he held it.
It is possible the stock/investments in the IRA has been sold and now is being held as cash in that case the interest would have avoided tax. But I would be surprised if large amounts of cash were being held in the IRA.

Most of us can have the luxury of investing in stocks at rock bottom and then enjoying great gains if we are both knowledgable and lucky enough to make the right choices. I believe he was both.

eeyore1954 · 30th July 2012, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

I can think of two good reasons that are both lumped in the calculation that the political damage of releasing them is probably greater than the political damage of continuing not to.

The first specific is: the "mountains" that can be made of "molehills" such as having $100 million in an IRA. He probably can explain how achieving this was all on the up and up, but it's not the sort of thing most people are very sympathetic to, and it seems like an abuse of something set up to help encourage personal retirement accounts (as opposed to relying only on Social Security or conventional employee pensions).

The second is the point I've made that in some instances his own personal finances belie the proposals he has made as a candidate for the POTUS. I mentioned, for example, that he continues to talk about a radical simplification of the tax code. His returns show that he is someone who has taken best advantage of the complexities of the tax code, and even argues for the necessity of such complexity (since it has to cover such a huge array of different situations). Also, his foreign investments argue against the idea that cutting taxes on the wealthy necessarily leads to U.S. job creation.

To me the problem with the second argument is even if someone is in favor of radical simplication that should in no way imply they wouldn't use the code as it is today to legally lower their bill.

I know the analogy fails but if you believe the designated hitter is not good for baseball would you send you pitcher to bat as an American League manager. You might try to get it changed but you would use the rules.
Look at Warren Buffett he says the code is unfair and would like to see it change but it looks to me as if he takes advantage of it as it is and then some. As he should in my opinion.
I am pretty sure Bill Gates is in favor of raising taxes and Bill Gates taxes are never revealed but you can see enough from the Bill and Melinda Gates charity to be pretty sure all advantages available in donating appreciated capital to charities etc have been used by him (Buffett I believe also has donated a lot of appreciated stock to the Gates Foundation). Once again as I believe he should. Apparently he feels he can put the money to better use than the government and makes sure more goes there and less goes to taxes.

BenBurch · 30th July 2012, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

I'm an opponent and critic of Romney's but this is a pretty thin argument. It's kind of on par with the argument that Obama wants to take away your guns.

...

Fair enough. I wonder at anybody with that much money seeking public office rather than just buying favors. There must be something he wants that he cannot buy.

eeyore1954 · 30th July 2012, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

From the article.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger
Mitt Romney’s $100M IRA: Gaming the System at Bain

It gives the rundown.
From the article.

Quote:
However, if the plan was to fund one’s religious tithing with those tax-deferred dollars; that would be a really cheap way to fund the tithe with tax-privileged, false cost basis, taxpayer-subsidized dollars. And that is a hard-core benefit no matter how you cut it. It is almost as if the government is covering the bill.
So he could have done his LDS "payments" from this account, and since that money is tax deductible, he was essentially getting free money to the LDS?

Does the article say how he was able to donate from his IRA to charity? Does the article have any thing other than some baseless speculation about the purpose of the IRA.

The tax code is already very generous on donations of appreciated property without having to put it into an IRA.
There is a provision for donating distributions from an IRA to charity but I believe you have to be 71 1/2 to do it.

eeyore1954 · 30th July 2012, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Mitt Romney’s $100M IRA: Gaming the System at Bain

It gives the rundown.

A very unbiased article. Look at the unfounded statement that Unaboogie copied.

TellyKNeasuss · 30th July 2012, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Fair enough. I wonder at anybody with that much money seeking public office rather than just buying favors. There must be something he wants that he cannot buy.

To me, Romney comes across as a guy who NEEDS to be in charge. Being POTUS is the ultimate being in charge. I doubt that there are any financial considerations. If Romney wanted more money, he could have kept working at, oops, gone back to working at Bain.

JoeTheJuggler · 30th July 2012, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by eeyore1954

To me the problem with the second argument is even if someone is in favor of radical simplication that should in no way imply they wouldn't use the code as it is today to legally lower their bill.

I understand that, and I agree with it, but it doesn't refute quite the point I'm making.

For example, the very complicated issues surrounding the losses the Romneys were allowed to take on their dressage horse (only $50 due to the passive activity loss limit) are necessary for covering situations like that. His own very complicated personal finances point out the very rationale for such a complicated tax code.

I'm not faulting him (in this argument) for taking advantage of the complicated tax code. Instead, I'm saying that his personal finances demonstrate the need for a complicated tax code.

So does the case of a working lower-middle class single mom who really needs that day-care expense deduction. A radically simplified plan just wouldn't cover these diverse situations.

The other point I mentioned is that his personal finances also argue against a tax plan that presumes that tax cuts to the wealthy necessarily results in job creation (as if we needed more evidence to debunk that idea!)

JoeTheJuggler · 30th July 2012, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Fair enough. I wonder at anybody with that much money seeking public office rather than just buying favors. There must be something he wants that he cannot buy.

Well I wonder at anyone who seems to think they need more money than multiple millions. (Pujols turning down the $220 million deal the Cardinals offered, for example. What could any more money than that possibly mean to anyone? How many houses, boats and cars can a person even have time to enjoy?)

But I can see fame and power being something motivating other than wealth.

Also, to be fair, I think Romney probably believes in fiscal conservatism and he probably has an ideological belief that he would be good for the country. (So much so that, as with most successful politicians at that level, he is willing to flip flop or shake the Etch-a-Sketch to be anything to anyone just to win the office.)

Solitaire · 30th July 2012, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

So, speculation time;

What is Romney hiding?

Since he will not tell the truth, we are free to imagine anything at all.

Couldn't you just torrent search for them?
I remember a guy who said he found his tax returns on servers in dot-ng and dot-ru.
Surely they've got back up copies of everyone's forms there.

NG – Net Government, RU – Returns Utility, probably...

Bob001 · 30th July 2012, 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by Solitaire

Couldn't you just torrent search for them?
I remember a guy who said he found his tax returns on servers in dot-ng and dot-ru.
Surely they've got back up copies of everyone's forms there.

NG – Net Government, RU – Returns Utility, probably...

Tax returns are not public. .ru is the web domain for Russia; .ng is the domain for Nigeria. If you somehow find your financial information on such a site someone very likely is stealing it and you should be very alarmed.
http://www.101domain.com/country_domain.htm

(This was a joke, right?)

Solitaire · 1st August 2012, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Bob001

Tax returns are not public. .ru is the web domain for Russia; .ng is the domain for Nigeria. If you somehow find your financial information on such a site someone very likely is stealing it and you should be very alarmed.
http://www.101domain.com/country_domain.htm

(This was a joke, right?)

A small joke.

I wonder.

With all the hacking into the major secure internet sites of major corporations, why hasn't the IRS been hacked?

Quote:

IRS Found Lax In Protecting Taxpayer Data

The Privacy Rights Clearinghouse, a nonprofit research and advocacy group in San Diego, says more than 100 million records of U.S. residents have been exposed by security breaches since February 2005.

Okay. That answer's the question.

Maybe taxpayer forms aren't valuable in themselves. Maybe you need other things.

P.S. If the average family size is 3.1415926535 what percentage of the population does this affect?

Skeptic Ginger · 1st August 2012, 01:20 PM

The Daily Kos speculates:

Quote:

Today's idea: he's got $100M in his IRA. There's no way in hell he did that in any normal manner.

Other diaries in the series.

He didn't tithe
Nothing, he's just pathologically secretive
Hiding stuff from Ann Romney
Rich people write-offs
Olympics corruptions
Medical expenses
Political contributions
Foreign investments
Church contributions exceed taxes

thaiboxerken · 2nd August 2012, 07:09 PM

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/...fcL/story.html

Romney is upset that Reid claimed that Romney may not have paid taxes for about 10 yrs while at Bain.

He's telling Reid to "put up or shut up."

HA! That's comedy there.

BenBurch · 2nd August 2012, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/...fcL/story.html

Romney is upset that Reid claimed that Romney may not have paid taxes for about 10 yrs while at Bain.

He's telling Reid to "put up or shut up."

HA! That's comedy there.

Go REID!

thaiboxerken · 2nd August 2012, 07:30 PM

If only Romney had some way to make Reid shut up with some kind of evidence that he did pay taxes in those ten years....

BenBurch · 2nd August 2012, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

If only Romney had some way to make Reid shut up with some kind of evidence that he did pay taxes in those ten years....

It's a shame that one of the reasons he might not be able to show us his taxes is because he might never have filed them...

...he can prove me wrong. I dare him.

deaman · 2nd August 2012, 07:49 PM

Heaven forbid he gets elected if this is his usual stance on his own finances:

"I don't manage them," Romney said. "I don't even know where they are."

Oliver · 3rd August 2012, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by Solitaire

A small joke.

I wonder.

With all the hacking into the major secure internet sites of major corporations, why hasn't the IRS been hacked?

Okay. That answer's the question.

Maybe taxpayer forms aren't valuable in themselves. Maybe you need other things.

P.S. If the average family size is 3.1415926535 what percentage of the population does this affect?

Why even hack the IRS? They should release those files themselves for anyone running for congress, presidency, etc.

mhaze · 3rd August 2012, 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by deaman

Heaven forbid he gets elected if this is his usual stance on his own finances:

"I don't manage them," Romney said. "I don't even know where they are."

No, that's not fair if he's put the assets in a (sort of ) blind trust, because he HAD TO to run for office, then you make this criticism?

BenBurch · 3rd August 2012, 06:01 AM

Originally Posted by deaman

Heaven forbid he gets elected if this is his usual stance on his own finances:

"I don't manage them," Romney said. "I don't even know where they are."

Like his tax filings!

eeyore1954 · 3rd August 2012, 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/...fcL/story.html

Romney is upset that Reid claimed that Romney may not have paid taxes for about 10 yrs while at Bain.

He's telling Reid to "put up or shut up."

HA! That's comedy there.

At least Reid is in favor of financial "transparency" like most other lawmakers.

Bob001 · 3rd August 2012, 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by mhaze

No, that's not fair if he's put the assets in a (sort of ) blind trust, because he HAD TO to run for office, then you make this criticism?

Not so blind that it can't invest in his son's business:
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/p...se-blind-trust

timhau · 3rd August 2012, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by Bob001

Not so blind that it can't invest in his son's business:
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/p...se-blind-trust

Let me get this straight: Mitt Romney has a son called Tagg?!?

Bob001 · 3rd August 2012, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by timhau

Let me get this straight: Mitt Romney has a son called Tagg?!?

Short for Taggart:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/jpmoore/the-romney-sons-a-guide

Bob001 · 3rd August 2012, 06:53 AM

One of Romney's tax strategies has been to acquire cheap stock through Bain, then donate it to his church and deduct the full appreciated value:

Quote:

Romney was eligible to invest in the stock of companies that were being restructured by Bain. Romney and other Bain investors usually were able to purchase the stock at very low prices.

Through the years, such stock may appreciate in value, sometimes considerably.

The analysts said that if Romney and others at Bain got a stock cheap and eventually donated it to a church or charity without cashing in the stock, then they could get two tax benefits.

First, they would not have to pay capital gains tax on the appreciated value of the stock, which they would have to do if they sold the stock and either pocketed or donated the proceeds.

Second, they might be able to deduct all, or at least part of, the value of the donated stock from their taxable income.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...80H28B20120119

Dymanic · 3rd August 2012, 07:24 AM

In an interview last Sunday, Romney was asked by an ABC reporter whether he had ever paid a lower tax rate than the 13.9% on his 2010 return. His response was "I haven’t calculated that. I’m happy to go back and look, but my view is I’ve paid all the taxes required by law."

ABC is still waiting for him to make good on his promise to "go back and look", but so far all they've gotten is a rehashing of the "I've paid all the taxes required by law" bit. That's not a direct answer to the question that was asked, but, indirectly, it sort of is, because it makes it rather obvious that the answer is "yes".

30th July 2012, 06:51 AM	#681
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,500	Joe, occurs to me that getting elected might be how Romney avoids taxes on that $100 Million. If he can get a tax bill making Ira withdrawal tax free (helps the little guys, doncha' know?) he can skate on those taxes.
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30th July 2012, 07:01 AM	#682
DavidJames Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Front Range, CO Posts: 7,118	Why doesn't Romney simply release his records and defend them. I doubt he did anything illegal. He could say, for example, I have a lot of money because I found a lucrative career, worked hard and made intelligent decisions. Rather then hide, he could say he is the epitome of the American dream. As for tax issues, he could either defend his situation by saying it's designed to reward good choices and hard work or perhaps as an example of why he needs to be president to improve the tax situation.
	__________________ I will no longer respond to those who choose to have tools of murder as their avatars. Everyone is a skeptic except, of course, for the stuff that they believe Beaver Hateman: Is your argument that human life loses value proportionate to the number of humans available? Malcolm Kirkpatrick: That's part of the argument. Value is determined by supply and demand.

30th July 2012, 07:11 AM	#683
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,500	Originally Posted by DavidJames Why doesn't Romney simply release his records and defend them. I doubt he did anything illegal. He could say, for example, I have a lot of money because I found a lucrative career, worked hard and made intelligent decisions. Rather then hide, he could say he is the epitome of the American dream. As for tax issues, he could either defend his situation by saying it's designed to reward good choices and hard work or perhaps as an example of why he needs to be president to improve the tax situation. It's pretty plain that either he decided he doesn't respect us enough believe we deserve to know, or that the damage from not being honest with us is less bad than the damage disclosure would cause.
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30th July 2012, 07:27 AM	#684
eeyore1954 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,181	Originally Posted by BenBurch Joe, occurs to me that getting elected might be how Romney avoids taxes on that $100 Million. If he can get a tax bill making Ira withdrawal tax free (helps the little guys, doncha' know?) he can skate on those taxes. That could happen but do you really think that would fly in light of the fact the value of his IRA is known and it also goes against the theory of the IRA or any deferred plan.
eeyore1954 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,181

30th July 2012, 07:29 AM	#685
eeyore1954 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,181	Originally Posted by DavidJames Why doesn't Romney simply release his records and defend them. I doubt he did anything illegal. He could say, for example, I have a lot of money because I found a lucrative career, worked hard and made intelligent decisions. Rather then hide, he could say he is the epitome of the American dream. As for tax issues, he could either defend his situation by saying it's designed to reward good choices and hard work or perhaps as an example of why he needs to be president to improve the tax situation. In my opinion he should have been releasing while he was governor.
eeyore1954 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,181

30th July 2012, 07:35 AM	#686
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,500	Originally Posted by eeyore1954 That could happen but do you really think that would fly in light of the fact the value of his IRA is known and it also goes against the theory of the IRA or any deferred plan. Well, I don't think we were initially supposed to know about his IRA. And I think how you sell it is you say, look, all these people were deprived of their IRA growth by the financial crisis, so they need help getting through retirement.
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30th July 2012, 07:56 AM	#687
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,921	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler But remember, Bain dealt with other companies' stocks. His IRA could have been payment in the form of seriously undervalued stock in a company they knew would prosper. So it's not Bain stock we're necessarily talking about. Bloomberg provides an example: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...gical-ira.html So I looked up SEP IRAs just to make sure I understood them, and I concede that the money isn't tax free to withdraw, but there are MANY tax advantages to having $100M in one. The way they work, as far as I can tell, is that the company makes those contributions at a maximum of around $50K a year (that's the current number). So that's tax free money from the company to you. That money then grows tax free. Meaning, that every year, had Mitt had that $100M in a normal investment account, he'd have owed taxes paid at normal income tax rates. I'm not a tax expert, but I believe he'd have gotten a 1099 INT every year, and that would have been for millions of dollars every year. Having the money stashed in a SEP IRA, means he's never paid a dime in taxes so far. Now when he does withdraw, which he must do starting next year, he will pay at normal income tax rates. But he's paying that rate on money that has grown tax free for 25 years or whatever. So yeah, not tax free 100%, but a damn fine deal for people who can parlay $50K a year into $100M through the use of trickery in buying equity at rock bottom prices, and not something the rest of us get to take advantage of.

30th July 2012, 07:59 AM	#688
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,799	Mitt Romney’s $100M IRA: Gaming the System at Bain It gives the rundown.
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30th July 2012, 08:11 AM	#689
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,921	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Mitt Romney’s $100M IRA: Gaming the System at Bain It gives the rundown. From the article. Quote: However, if the plan was to fund one’s religious tithing with those tax-deferred dollars; that would be a really cheap way to fund the tithe with tax-privileged, false cost basis, taxpayer-subsidized dollars. And that is a hard-core benefit no matter how you cut it. It is almost as if the government is covering the bill. So he could have done his LDS "payments" from this account, and since that money is tax deductible, he was essentially getting free money to the LDS?

30th July 2012, 08:17 AM	#690
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,500	Originally Posted by Unabogie From the article. So he could have done his LDS "payments" from this account, and since that money is tax deductible, he was essentially getting free money to the LDS? Leads me to ask how deeply the LDS expects to sup from the government trough once this crook is elected?
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30th July 2012, 09:02 AM	#691
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 27,173	Originally Posted by Unabogie So he could have done his LDS "payments" from this account, and since that money is tax deductible, he was essentially getting free money to the LDS? I don't get what this has to do with the issue of tax on the IRA. Any money he donates to the LDS is deductible. Even if he actually worked and earned it the way most of us do. (I can hardly say that with a straight face.) But that deduction is really a separate issue from whether or not he gets tax free money from the IRA.
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30th July 2012, 09:04 AM	#692
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 27,173	Originally Posted by Unabogie So I looked up SEP IRAs just to make sure I understood them, and I concede that the money isn't tax free to withdraw, but there are MANY tax advantages to having $100M in one. Of course there is. There's an important tax advantage to people who have very modest amounts of money in one as well. That's kind of the point. It encourages retirement savings.
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30th July 2012, 09:09 AM	#693
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 27,173	Originally Posted by BenBurch Joe, occurs to me that getting elected might be how Romney avoids taxes on that $100 Million. If he can get a tax bill making Ira withdrawal tax free (helps the little guys, doncha' know?) he can skate on those taxes. I'm an opponent and critic of Romney's but this is a pretty thin argument. It's kind of on par with the argument that Obama wants to take away your guns. And frankly, I don't think Romney would do any such thing now that he's on the national stage. (Especially if he were elected.) He's so wealthy, that the tax he would pay on liquidating his IRA for income would not be the least bit burdensome. I understand that you don't get so wealthy by blithely treating any tax burden as "not the least bit burdensome", but apparently he's after the office of POTUS now and not just wealth. If his only goal were to continue paying the least amount of tax he possibly can, he'd have done a lot better not to throw his hat in the ring.
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30th July 2012, 09:15 AM	#694
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 27,173	Originally Posted by DavidJames Why doesn't Romney simply release his records and defend them. I doubt he did anything illegal. He could say, for example, I have a lot of money because I found a lucrative career, worked hard and made intelligent decisions. Rather then hide, he could say he is the epitome of the American dream. As for tax issues, he could either defend his situation by saying it's designed to reward good choices and hard work or perhaps as an example of why he needs to be president to improve the tax situation. I can think of two good reasons that are both lumped in the calculation that the political damage of releasing them is probably greater than the political damage of continuing not to. The first specific is: the "mountains" that can be made of "molehills" such as having $100 million in an IRA. He probably can explain how achieving this was all on the up and up, but it's not the sort of thing most people are very sympathetic to, and it seems like an abuse of something set up to help encourage personal retirement accounts (as opposed to relying only on Social Security or conventional employee pensions). The second is the point I've made that in some instances his own personal finances belie the proposals he has made as a candidate for the POTUS. I mentioned, for example, that he continues to talk about a radical simplification of the tax code. His returns show that he is someone who has taken best advantage of the complexities of the tax code, and even argues for the necessity of such complexity (since it has to cover such a huge array of different situations). Also, his foreign investments argue against the idea that cutting taxes on the wealthy necessarily leads to U.S. job creation.
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30th July 2012, 10:42 AM	#695
eeyore1954 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,181	Originally Posted by Unabogie So I looked up SEP IRAs just to make sure I understood them, and I concede that the money isn't tax free to withdraw, but there are MANY tax advantages to having $100M in one. The way they work, as far as I can tell, is that the company makes those contributions at a maximum of around $50K a year (that's the current number). So that's tax free money from the company to you. That money then grows tax free. Meaning, that every year, had Mitt had that $100M in a normal investment account, he'd have owed taxes paid at normal income tax rates. I'm not a tax expert, but I believe he'd have gotten a 1099 INT every year, and that would have been for millions of dollars every year. Having the money stashed in a SEP IRA, means he's never paid a dime in taxes so far. Now when he does withdraw, which he must do starting next year, he will pay at normal income tax rates. But he's paying that rate on money that has grown tax free for 25 years or whatever. So yeah, not tax free 100%, but a damn fine deal for people who can parlay $50K a year into $100M through the use of trickery in buying equity at rock bottom prices, and not something the rest of us get to take advantage of. But it is likely the overwhelming majority of the growth has been in capital appreciation. If he had bought shares in Bain or Dominoes or other stock and held it outside of an IRA he would not pay any gains until it is disposed anyway. He would have owed taxes on any dividends paid while he held it. It is possible the stock/investments in the IRA has been sold and now is being held as cash in that case the interest would have avoided tax. But I would be surprised if large amounts of cash were being held in the IRA. Most of us can have the luxury of investing in stocks at rock bottom and then enjoying great gains if we are both knowledgable and lucky enough to make the right choices. I believe he was both.
eeyore1954 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,181	Last edited by eeyore1954; 30th July 2012 at 10:44 AM.

30th July 2012, 10:48 AM	#696
eeyore1954 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,181	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler I can think of two good reasons that are both lumped in the calculation that the political damage of releasing them is probably greater than the political damage of continuing not to. The first specific is: the "mountains" that can be made of "molehills" such as having $100 million in an IRA. He probably can explain how achieving this was all on the up and up, but it's not the sort of thing most people are very sympathetic to, and it seems like an abuse of something set up to help encourage personal retirement accounts (as opposed to relying only on Social Security or conventional employee pensions). The second is the point I've made that in some instances his own personal finances belie the proposals he has made as a candidate for the POTUS. I mentioned, for example, that he continues to talk about a radical simplification of the tax code. His returns show that he is someone who has taken best advantage of the complexities of the tax code, and even argues for the necessity of such complexity (since it has to cover such a huge array of different situations). Also, his foreign investments argue against the idea that cutting taxes on the wealthy necessarily leads to U.S. job creation. To me the problem with the second argument is even if someone is in favor of radical simplication that should in no way imply they wouldn't use the code as it is today to legally lower their bill. I know the analogy fails but if you believe the designated hitter is not good for baseball would you send you pitcher to bat as an American League manager. You might try to get it changed but you would use the rules. Look at Warren Buffett he says the code is unfair and would like to see it change but it looks to me as if he takes advantage of it as it is and then some. As he should in my opinion. I am pretty sure Bill Gates is in favor of raising taxes and Bill Gates taxes are never revealed but you can see enough from the Bill and Melinda Gates charity to be pretty sure all advantages available in donating appreciated capital to charities etc have been used by him (Buffett I believe also has donated a lot of appreciated stock to the Gates Foundation). Once again as I believe he should. Apparently he feels he can put the money to better use than the government and makes sure more goes there and less goes to taxes.
eeyore1954 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,181	Last edited by eeyore1954; 30th July 2012 at 10:58 AM.

30th July 2012, 10:52 AM	#697
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,500	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler I'm an opponent and critic of Romney's but this is a pretty thin argument. It's kind of on par with the argument that Obama wants to take away your guns. ... Fair enough. I wonder at anybody with that much money seeking public office rather than just buying favors. There must be something he wants that he cannot buy.
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30th July 2012, 11:25 AM	#698
eeyore1954 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,181	Originally Posted by Unabogie From the article. Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Mitt Romney’s $100M IRA: Gaming the System at Bain It gives the rundown. From the article. Quote: However, if the plan was to fund one’s religious tithing with those tax-deferred dollars; that would be a really cheap way to fund the tithe with tax-privileged, false cost basis, taxpayer-subsidized dollars. And that is a hard-core benefit no matter how you cut it. It is almost as if the government is covering the bill. So he could have done his LDS "payments" from this account, and since that money is tax deductible, he was essentially getting free money to the LDS? Does the article say how he was able to donate from his IRA to charity? Does the article have any thing other than some baseless speculation about the purpose of the IRA. The tax code is already very generous on donations of appreciated property without having to put it into an IRA. There is a provision for donating distributions from an IRA to charity but I believe you have to be 71 1/2 to do it.
eeyore1954 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,181

30th July 2012, 11:28 AM	#699
eeyore1954 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,181	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Mitt Romney’s $100M IRA: Gaming the System at Bain It gives the rundown. A very unbiased article. Look at the unfounded statement that Unaboogie copied.
eeyore1954 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,181

30th July 2012, 11:28 AM	#700
TellyKNeasuss Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Thornton, CO, USA Posts: 1,540	Originally Posted by BenBurch Fair enough. I wonder at anybody with that much money seeking public office rather than just buying favors. There must be something he wants that he cannot buy. To me, Romney comes across as a guy who NEEDS to be in charge. Being POTUS is the ultimate being in charge. I doubt that there are any financial considerations. If Romney wanted more money, he could have kept working at, oops, gone back to working at Bain.
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30th July 2012, 11:35 AM	#701
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 27,173	Originally Posted by eeyore1954 To me the problem with the second argument is even if someone is in favor of radical simplication that should in no way imply they wouldn't use the code as it is today to legally lower their bill. I understand that, and I agree with it, but it doesn't refute quite the point I'm making. For example, the very complicated issues surrounding the losses the Romneys were allowed to take on their dressage horse (only $50 due to the passive activity loss limit) are necessary for covering situations like that. His own very complicated personal finances point out the very rationale for such a complicated tax code. I'm not faulting him (in this argument) for taking advantage of the complicated tax code. Instead, I'm saying that his personal finances demonstrate the need for a complicated tax code. So does the case of a working lower-middle class single mom who really needs that day-care expense deduction. A radically simplified plan just wouldn't cover these diverse situations. The other point I mentioned is that his personal finances also argue against a tax plan that presumes that tax cuts to the wealthy necessarily results in job creation (as if we needed more evidence to debunk that idea!)
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30th July 2012, 11:42 AM	#702
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 27,173	Originally Posted by BenBurch Fair enough. I wonder at anybody with that much money seeking public office rather than just buying favors. There must be something he wants that he cannot buy. Well I wonder at anyone who seems to think they need more money than multiple millions. (Pujols turning down the $220 million deal the Cardinals offered, for example. What could any more money than that possibly mean to anyone? How many houses, boats and cars can a person even have time to enjoy?) But I can see fame and power being something motivating other than wealth. Also, to be fair, I think Romney probably believes in fiscal conservatism and he probably has an ideological belief that he would be good for the country. (So much so that, as with most successful politicians at that level, he is willing to flip flop or shake the Etch-a-Sketch to be anything to anyone just to win the office.)
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30th July 2012, 08:46 PM	#703
Solitaire Neoclinus blanchardi Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Johnson City, Tennessee Posts: 1,746	Originally Posted by BenBurch So, speculation time; What is Romney hiding? Since he will not tell the truth, we are free to imagine anything at all. Couldn't you just torrent search for them? I remember a guy who said he found his tax returns on servers in dot-ng and dot-ru. Surely they've got back up copies of everyone's forms there. NG – Net Government, RU – Returns Utility, probably...
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30th July 2012, 09:31 PM	#704
Bob001 Muse Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 943	Originally Posted by Solitaire Couldn't you just torrent search for them? I remember a guy who said he found his tax returns on servers in dot-ng and dot-ru. Surely they've got back up copies of everyone's forms there. NG – Net Government, RU – Returns Utility, probably... Tax returns are not public. .ru is the web domain for Russia; .ng is the domain for Nigeria. If you somehow find your financial information on such a site someone very likely is stealing it and you should be very alarmed. http://www.101domain.com/country_domain.htm (This was a joke, right?)
Bob001 Muse Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 943	Last edited by Bob001; 30th July 2012 at 09:33 PM.

1st August 2012, 12:18 PM	#705
Solitaire Neoclinus blanchardi Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Johnson City, Tennessee Posts: 1,746	Originally Posted by Bob001 Tax returns are not public. .ru is the web domain for Russia; .ng is the domain for Nigeria. If you somehow find your financial information on such a site someone very likely is stealing it and you should be very alarmed. http://www.101domain.com/country_domain.htm (This was a joke, right?) A small joke. I wonder. With all the hacking into the major secure internet sites of major corporations, why hasn't the IRS been hacked? Quote: IRS Found Lax In Protecting Taxpayer Data The Privacy Rights Clearinghouse, a nonprofit research and advocacy group in San Diego, says more than 100 million records of U.S. residents have been exposed by security breaches since February 2005. Okay. That answer's the question. Maybe taxpayer forms aren't valuable in themselves. Maybe you need other things. P.S. If the average family size is 3.1415926535 what percentage of the population does this affect?
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1st August 2012, 01:20 PM	#706
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,799	The Daily Kos speculates: Quote: Today's idea: he's got $100M in his IRA. There's no way in hell he did that in any normal manner. Other diaries in the series. He didn't tithe Nothing, he's just pathologically secretive Hiding stuff from Ann Romney Rich people write-offs Olympics corruptions Medical expenses Political contributions Foreign investments Church contributions exceed taxes
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2nd August 2012, 07:09 PM	#707
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 21,090	http://www.boston.com/news/politics/...fcL/story.html Romney is upset that Reid claimed that Romney may not have paid taxes for about 10 yrs while at Bain. He's telling Reid to "put up or shut up." HA! That's comedy there.
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2nd August 2012, 07:26 PM	#708
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,500	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken http://www.boston.com/news/politics/...fcL/story.html Romney is upset that Reid claimed that Romney may not have paid taxes for about 10 yrs while at Bain. He's telling Reid to "put up or shut up." HA! That's comedy there. Go REID!
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2nd August 2012, 07:30 PM	#709
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 21,090	If only Romney had some way to make Reid shut up with some kind of evidence that he did pay taxes in those ten years....
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

2nd August 2012, 07:34 PM	#710
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,500	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken If only Romney had some way to make Reid shut up with some kind of evidence that he did pay taxes in those ten years.... It's a shame that one of the reasons he might not be able to show us his taxes is because he might never have filed them... ...he can prove me wrong. I dare him.
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2nd August 2012, 07:49 PM	#711
deaman Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,781	Heaven, help us..... Heaven forbid he gets elected if this is his usual stance on his own finances: "I don't manage them," Romney said. "I don't even know where they are."
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3rd August 2012, 04:42 AM	#712
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,370	Originally Posted by Solitaire A small joke. I wonder. With all the hacking into the major secure internet sites of major corporations, why hasn't the IRS been hacked? Okay. That answer's the question. Maybe taxpayer forms aren't valuable in themselves. Maybe you need other things. P.S. If the average family size is 3.1415926535 what percentage of the population does this affect? Why even hack the IRS? They should release those files themselves for anyone running for congress, presidency, etc.
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3rd August 2012, 05:47 AM	#713
mhaze Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Woo*(+-1.10)^20=AGWwoo Posts: 15,400	Originally Posted by deaman Heaven forbid he gets elected if this is his usual stance on his own finances: "I don't manage them," Romney said. "I don't even know where they are." No, that's not fair if he's put the assets in a (sort of ) blind trust, because he HAD TO to run for office, then you make this criticism?
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3rd August 2012, 06:01 AM	#714
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,500	Originally Posted by deaman Heaven forbid he gets elected if this is his usual stance on his own finances: "I don't manage them," Romney said. "I don't even know where they are." Like his tax filings!
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3rd August 2012, 06:06 AM	#715
eeyore1954 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,181	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken http://www.boston.com/news/politics/...fcL/story.html Romney is upset that Reid claimed that Romney may not have paid taxes for about 10 yrs while at Bain. He's telling Reid to "put up or shut up." HA! That's comedy there. At least Reid is in favor of financial "transparency" like most other lawmakers.
eeyore1954 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,181