Islamophobia the socially acceptable hatred? - Page 2

Ryokan · 11th July 2012, 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller

I really don't like that my country suddenly has to thwart more than one terrorist attack because of some BS Muhammed drawings. If that doesn't show that Islam pose a threat I don't know what does?

Since my country has experienced terrorism done by a Christian, I should feel that Christianity poses a threat?

Hercules Rockefeller · 11th July 2012, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Since my country has experienced terrorism done by a Christian, I should feel that Christianity poses a threat?

You should be afraid of all religious fanaticism. There's also a difference between a lone nutter and organized terrorism.

Chaos · 11th July 2012, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller

You should be afraid of all religious fanaticism. There's also a difference between a lone nutter and organized terrorism.

There´s also a difference between a lone nutter - or organized terrorism - and a religion consisting of over 1 billion innocent people.

But, apparently, minor details like that don´t count when there´s hatred to indulge in.

ANTPogo · 11th July 2012, 06:15 AM

Hercules Rockefeller · 11th July 2012, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by Chaos

There´s also a difference between a lone nutter - or organized terrorism - and a religion consisting of over 1 billion innocent people.

But, apparently, minor details like that don´t count when there´s hatred to indulge in.

Yes, let's skip the rational discussion and go right to the hyperbole.

The fact is still that religion and terrorism are linked and in this case found the way to my country. I don't think there's a positive angle to that.

Ryokan · 11th July 2012, 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller

The fact is still that religion and terrorism are linked and in this case found the way to my country. I don't think there's a positive angle to that.

No, there aren't any positive angles to that.

However, that doesn't make it right to blame all Muslims for it, no more than it's right to blame all Christians for Anders Breivik, Timothy McVeigh or the IRA. Or all Hindus for the Tamil Tigers, for that matter.

DC · 11th July 2012, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller

Yes, let's skip the rational discussion and go right to the hyperbole.

The fact is still that religion and terrorism are linked and in this case found the way to my country. I don't think there's a positive angle to that.

terrorism is linked to humans.

Hercules Rockefeller · 11th July 2012, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by Ryokan

No, there aren't any positive angles to that.

However, that doesn't make it right to blame all Muslims for it, no more than it's right to blame all Christians for Anders Breivik, Timothy McVeigh or the IRA. Or all Hindus for the Tamil Tigers, for that matter.

I never said I blame all Muslims for it? I still don't like Islam as I don't like any religion, but right now it's pretty much the only one linked to terrorism where I live. I believe I feel no different about it than had it been American bible belters planning a massacre on Jyllands Posten (the newspaper that printed the Muhammed Drawings.)

Ryokan · 11th July 2012, 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller

I never said I blame all Muslims for it? I still don't like Islam as I don't like any religion, but right now it's pretty much the only one linked to terrorism where I live. I believe I feel no different about it than had it been American bible belters planning a massacre on Jyllands Posten (the newspaper that printed the Muhammed Drawings.)

Newspapers in my country have been threatened for printing those too. And Norwegian embassies burned to the ground because of it. But how on Earth this is linked to my Bosnian neighbour or the guys running the Turkish pizza restaurant across the street from me is beyond me.

If you're not blaming all Muslims for these actions, what do you mean by Islam being 'linked' to terrorism? And how is that not painting all Muslims with the brush of terrorism? You can't say they're linked to terrorism, and at the same time say you don't put any blame on them.

You're a white European from a culturally Christian country, so why shouldn't I link you to terrorism via Anders Breivik, considering where I live? Do you feel that link would be fair?

Hercules Rockefeller · 11th July 2012, 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Newspapers in my country have been threatened for printing those too. And Norwegian embassies burned to the ground because of it. But how on Earth this is linked to my Bosnian neighbour or the guys running the Turkish pizza restaurant across the street from me is beyond me.

If you're not blaming all Muslims for these actions, what do you mean by Islam being 'linked' to terrorism? And how is that not painting all Muslims with the brush of terrorism? You can't say they're linked to terrorism, and at the same time say you don't put any blame on them.

You're a white European from a culturally Christian country, so why shouldn't I link you to terrorism via Anders Breivik, considering where I live? Do you feel that link would be fair?

Do I really have to explain how Islam is linked to terrorism? My point is that religion is at best neutral and I really don't see that Islam has brought anything good to society where I live. Some Muslims have, absolutely, but not because of their religion. Do you see the differnce?

Hilited part: No, cause I'm not religious.

angrysoba · 11th July 2012, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/r...1905047898.jpg

How do you make those things?

DC · 11th July 2012, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

How do you make those things?

photoshop and a bit rhetoric

ANTPogo · 11th July 2012, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

How do you make those things?

Stealing them, mostly.

baron · 11th July 2012, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Newspapers in my country have been threatened for printing those too. And Norwegian embassies burned to the ground because of it. But how on Earth this is linked to my Bosnian neighbour or the guys running the Turkish pizza restaurant across the street from me is beyond me.

If you're not blaming all Muslims for these actions, what do you mean by Islam being 'linked' to terrorism? And how is that not painting all Muslims with the brush of terrorism? You can't say they're linked to terrorism, and at the same time say you don't put any blame on them.

You're a white European from a culturally Christian country, so why shouldn't I link you to terrorism via Anders Breivik, considering where I live? Do you feel that link would be fair?

You seem to not understand the difference between Islam and Muslims. To support your argument that Islam and terrorism are not linked you would need to demonstrate that no act of terrorism has ever been carried out in the name of Islam. This is demonstrable nonsense and proven as such on a day-to-day basis. You don't even need to speculate on the link because in many cases it's given to you by the perpetrators of the act. If a fatwa is drawn up against a person for insulting the prophet and that person is then beheaded in the street by a Muslim shouting "Allahu Akbar" then I challenge you to disprove the link between Islam and the ensuing murder. Arguments of wider Muslim support and misinterpretation of scripture can all be had but they are necessarily subsequent to acceptance of the blatantly obvious, that Islam and terrorism are linked. This holds true for all religions.

DC · 11th July 2012, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by baron

You seem to not understand the difference between Islam and Muslims. To support your argument that Islam and terrorism are not linked you would need to demonstrate that no act of terrorism has ever been carried out in the name of Islam. This is demonstrable nonsense and proven as such on a day-to-day basis. You don't even need to speculate on the link because in many cases it's given to you by the perpetrators of the act. If a fatwa is drawn up against a person for insulting the prophet and that person is then beheaded in the street by a Muslim shouting "Allahu Akbar" then I challenge you to disprove the link between Islam and the ensuing murder. Arguments of wider Muslim support and misinterpretation of scripture can all be had but they are necessarily subsequent to acceptance of the blatantly obvious, that Islam and terrorism are linked. This holds true for all religions.

what does it say about Islam when a few nuts claim to do their crimes in the name of Islam?
what does it say about enviromentalism when a few nuts claim to do their crimes in the name of enviromentalism?

terrorism is linked to many things. and in every case, it is linked to humans. what does that say about humans?

Hercules Rockefeller · 11th July 2012, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by DC

what does it say about Islam when a few nuts claim to do their crimes in the name of Islam?
what does it say about enviromentalism when a few nuts claim to do their crimes in the name of enviromentalism?

terrorism is linked to many things. and in every case, it is linked to humans. what does that say about humans?

We can try and turn it around. How do you think Islam is making a positive contribution to modern society?

DC · 11th July 2012, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller

We can try and turn it around. How do you think Islam is making a positive contribution to modern society?

it doesn't, no religion does. but that doesn't mean all they do is negative.

Belz... · 11th July 2012, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Dcdrac

I am am an aethiast

A what ?

Hercules Rockefeller · 11th July 2012, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

A what ?

It's when you don't believe in Isam.

baron · 11th July 2012, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by DC

what does it say about Islam when a few nuts claim to do their crimes in the name of Islam?

So you agree there's a link? If there is no link then your question doesn't make sense.

And I think you need to define what you mean by "a few nuts". I have no figures for the number of Islamic terrorists worldwide but consider this; in one single country (Pakistan), in the past ten years alone, 25,000 Islamic terrorists have been killed by armed forces. That's just killed, not in existence, so we can assume the latter figure is orders of magnitudes higher. Extrapolating that figure across Afghanistan and Africa and other Islamic terrorism hotbeds and I get to thinking your definition of 'a few' does not coincide with mine.

But as I said this is not relevant to my argument, which is that a clear link exists.

Originally Posted by DC

what does it say about enviromentalism when a few nuts claim to do their crimes in the name of enviromentalism?

If this is true then there is a link between the environmental movement and violence. The analogy to Islam tends to stop there, however, as to my knowledge there is no doctrine of environmentalism that can be assessed for culpability.

Originally Posted by DC

terrorism is linked to many things. and in every case, it is linked to humans. what does that say about humans?

Nothing of relevance.

baron · 11th July 2012, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

A what ?

I tend to side with Michelson and Morley so that makes me an anti-aethiast.

ANTPogo · 11th July 2012, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by baron

in one single country (Pakistan), in the past ten years alone, 25,000 Islamic terrorists have been killed by armed forces.

That's not the number of terrorists killed in Pakistan in the last decade. That's the number of civilians killed by terrorists in Pakistan in the last decade.

See here.

Darat · 11th July 2012, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by baron

You seem to not understand the difference between Islam and Muslims. To support your argument that Islam and terrorism are not linked you would need to demonstrate that no act of terrorism has ever been carried out in the name of Islam. This is demonstrable nonsense and proven as such on a day-to-day basis. You don't even need to speculate on the link because in many cases it's given to you by the perpetrators of the act. If a fatwa is drawn up against a person for insulting the prophet and that person is then beheaded in the street by a Muslim shouting "Allahu Akbar" then I challenge you to disprove the link between Islam and the ensuing murder. Arguments of wider Muslim support and misinterpretation of scripture can all be had but they are necessarily subsequent to acceptance of the blatantly obvious, that Islam and terrorism are linked. This holds true for all religions.

Problem with your reasoning is that it is just saying "humans are linked to terrorism" which is true but of very little utility. When most folks claim that Islam and terrorism are linked they are implying that there is something specific to Islam which creates that link.

baron · 11th July 2012, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

That's not the number of terrorists killed in Pakistan in the last decade. That's the number of civilians killed by terrorists in Pakistan in the last decade.

See here.

Not according to this site -

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countr...casualties.htm

It gives the figures as 24257 terrorists, 13614 civilians and 4525 forces. But if the site you quoted is correct then I'd suggest your figures indicate a higher number of actual terrorists than mine.

DC · 11th July 2012, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by baron

So you agree there's a link? If there is no link then your question doesn't make sense.

And I think you need to define what you mean by "a few nuts". I have no figures for the number of Islamic terrorists worldwide but consider this; in one single country (Pakistan), in the past ten years alone, 25,000 Islamic terrorists have been killed by armed forces. That's just killed, not in existence, so we can assume the latter figure is orders of magnitudes higher. Extrapolating that figure across Afghanistan and Africa and other Islamic terrorism hotbeds and I get to thinking your definition of 'a few' does not coincide with mine.

But as I said this is not relevant to my argument, which is that a clear link exists.

If this is true then there is a link between the environmental movement and violence. The analogy to Islam tends to stop there, however, as to my knowledge there is no doctrine of environmentalism that can be assessed for culpability.

Nothing of relevance.

so why do you accept a link between Islam and terrorism, but other links to terrorism you ignore, why?

here in europe far more terrorist atacks are done by non muslims than by muslims.

https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/...te-sat2011.pdf

Dcdrac · 11th July 2012, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by DC

terrorism is linked to humans.

Seconded, thirded and fourthed

DC · 11th July 2012, 09:25 AM

how can you conclude that 25k terrorists have been killed by armed forces when the statistics shown say "Fatalities in Terrorist Violence in Pakistan 2003-2012"

also how do they accuratly differentiate between civilian and terrorists when its compiled from news articles?
a strange homepage.

ANTPogo · 11th July 2012, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by baron

But if the site you quoted is correct then I'd suggest your figures indicate a higher number of actual terrorists than mine.

No, they don't. There's no relationship between the number of terrorists killed and the number of people killed by terrorists, such that knowing one number would let you calculate the other.

Dcdrac · 11th July 2012, 09:31 AM

Online racist abuse: we've all suffered it too Mehdi Hasan revealed the Islamophobic abuse he's endured online. It's something all racial minority writers face

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...e-writers-face

baron · 11th July 2012, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Problem with your reasoning is that it is just saying "humans are linked to terrorism" which is true but of very little utility. When most folks claim that Islam and terrorism are linked they are implying that there is something specific to Islam which creates that link.

I'm doing more than implying it, I'm asserting it as fact. You might argue about the validity of the flavours of Islam that call for terrorism and you might debate the extent to which they are observed in the Muslim world, but the link is self-evidently present.

Originally Posted by DC

so why do you accept a link between Islam and terrorism, but other links to terrorism you ignore, why?

Because the topic of this thread is Islam. Should I arrive at a thread concerning environmental terrorism or Christian atrocities then I wager I'll address those issues too, assuming I'm sufficiently interested to participate.

As an aside, when you yourself are on such a thread do you protest that nobody is mentioning Islamic terrorism or is your apologist protestation a one-way street?

Originally Posted by DC

how can you conclude that 25k terrorists have been killed by armed forces when the statistics shown say "Fatalities in Terrorist Violence in Pakistan 2003-2012"

I don't care who they were killed by, it makes no difference to my point.

Originally Posted by DC

also how do they accuratly differentiate between civilian and terrorists when its compiled from news articles?

If that's the case I imagine that the information was in the news articles. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, however. If it turned out that the figures are actually not 25,000 terrorists and 13,000 civilians killed, but 15,000 terrorists and 23,000 civilians, is this somehow helping your point that it's only a 'few nuts' who are responsible?

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

No, they don't. There's no relationship between the number of terrorists killed and the number of people killed by terrorists, such that knowing one number would let you calculate the other.

In that case we'll just go with my figures until other figures emerge, at which point we can assess which ones are more evidential.

DC · 11th July 2012, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by baron

I'm doing more than implying it, I'm asserting it as fact. You might argue about the validity of the flavours of Islam that call for terrorism and you might debate the extent to which they are observed in the Muslim world, but the link is self-evidently present.

Because the topic of this thread is Islam. Should I arrive at a thread concerning environmental terrorism or Christian atrocities then I wager I'll address those issues too, assuming I'm sufficiently interested to participate.

As an aside, when you yourself are on such a thread do you protest that nobody is mentioning Islamic terrorism or is your apologist protestation a one-way street?

I don't care who they were killed by, it makes no difference to my point.

If that's the case I imagine that the information was in the news articles. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, however. If it turned out that the figures are actually not 25,000 terrorists and 13,000 civilians killed, but 15,000 terrorists and 23,000 civilians, is this somehow helping your point that it's only a 'few nuts' who are responsible?

In that case we'll just go with my figures until other figures emerge, at which point we can assess which ones are more evidential.

sounds like you accidnetly landed in the wrong thread, the topic here is Islamophobia.

also it seem you do not read your sources carefully, there is no dispute that their numbers are from news articles.

baron · 11th July 2012, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by Dcdrac

Online racist abuse: we've all suffered it too Mehdi Hasan revealed the Islamophobic abuse he's endured online. It's something all racial minority writers face

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...e-writers-face

Interesting that you defend a man who declared that atheists are cattle and of "no intelligence" and that non-Muslims are immoral and "live their lives like animals".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4hpfqFt-0Q

baron · 11th July 2012, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by DC

sounds like you accidnetly landed in the wrong thread, the topic here is Islamophobia.

Take the trouble to follow the thread and you will find my points are on topic.

Originally Posted by DC

also it seem you do not read your sources carefully, there is no dispute that their numbers are from news articles.

I don't care in the slightest as it's not relevant to my point.

You appear to be very confused and your posts are incoherent.

DC · 11th July 2012, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by baron

Interesting that you defend a man who declared that atheists are cattle and of "no intelligence" and that non-Muslims are immoral and "live their lives like animals".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4hpfqFt-0Q

oh well, the Koran is even harder on us atheists, we are actually lower than animals.

all religions believe that those not part of their cult are living the wrong way. So what? i think the religious are living their live in the wrong way.

DC · 11th July 2012, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by baron

Take the trouble to follow the thread and you will find my points are on topic.

I don't care in the slightest as it's not relevant to my point.

You appear to be very confused and your posts are incoherent.

yes i agree your posts are on topic, a the topic is Islamaphobia. no preoblem there.

so you don't really care for the accuracy of the numbers you base your believes on?

baron · 11th July 2012, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by DC

so you don't really care for the accuracy of the numbers you base your believes on?

We can allow a vast margin of error before the figures fail to support my point that Islamic terrorism is not the product of "a few nutjobs", so in this instance a high level of accuracy is not needed. Then again it's always worth posting correct data if it's available so if you have evidence regarding the inaccuracy of those figures please post it.

Dcdrac · 11th July 2012, 09:58 AM

Baron you are missing the point and helping makie th epoint that blindly hating all of a group of people fo rhte actions of one person is irrational.

ANd do not say I am defending anyone I am jsut pointing to the fact that there is an undecurrent of hating a whole group of people for the views and actions of a tiny minority, which appears to be acceptable.

Why finger just the one group if you are to be consistant you should examine all religious groups and as has been pointed out time and again you will find in all of them minorities that are dangerous and extreme, but somehow that does not count somehow it is only Isalm that you seem to have a prticulr vitriol for why is that?

Why hate an entire singel religion for extreme acts carried out in its name but not all the others too?

DC · 11th July 2012, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by baron

We can allow a vast margin of error before the figures fail to support my point that Islamic terrorism is not the product of "a few nutjobs", so in this instance a high level of accuracy is not needed. Then again it's always worth posting correct data if it's available so if you have evidence regarding the inaccuracy of those figures please post it.

compared to the over a billion moslems, 25k is indeed only a few.

ANTPogo · 11th July 2012, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by baron

We can allow a vast margin of error before the figures fail to support my point that Islamic terrorism is not the product of "a few nutjobs",

There are 177 million people in Pakistan. So even if your numbers are correct, that's still only 0.01% of the population.

I'm pretty sure one hundredth of one percent counts as "a few".

Darat · 11th July 2012, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by baron

I'm doing more than implying it, I'm asserting it as fact. You might argue about the validity of the flavours of Islam that call for terrorism and you might debate the extent to which they are observed in the Muslim world, but the link is self-evidently present.

...snip....

But it doesn't follow from the reasoning you gave above.

11th July 2012, 05:46 AM	#42
Hercules Rockefeller Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Ponylandistan Posts: 1,384	Originally Posted by Ryokan Since my country has experienced terrorism done by a Christian, I should feel that Christianity poses a threat? You should be afraid of all religious fanaticism. There's also a difference between a lone nutter and organized terrorism.
	__________________ Quantum physics means that anything can happen at anytime and for no reason. Also, eat plenty of oatmeal, and animals never had a war! - Deepak Chopra

11th July 2012, 06:12 AM	#43
Chaos TAM Chocolate Dispenser Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Heart of Old Europe Posts: 9,778	Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller You should be afraid of all religious fanaticism. There's also a difference between a lone nutter and organized terrorism. There´s also a difference between a lone nutter - or organized terrorism - and a religion consisting of over 1 billion innocent people. But, apparently, minor details like that don´t count when there´s hatred to indulge in.
	__________________ Grand Master, Knights of the Question Mark Illusion: too good to be true - Reality: too true to be good Authors build castles in the sky, readers live in them and publishers collect the rent. - Maxim Gorki Folks enjoy a witch-hunt as long as they are on the blunt end of the pitchfork. - Suezoled You can't use logic to talk a man out of a position that he didn't use logic to get himself into - passed down by Nyarlathotep Kids these days are better than their parents since they constitute the newest edition, the beta version of our societies - Cleopatra YouÂ´ll have to accept the fact that some people are just plain nuts. - Paul C. Anagnostopolous

11th July 2012, 06:15 AM	#44
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,408
	__________________ "A nation can survive with kufr, but not with zulm." - ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib "No more hurting people" - Martin William Richard Currently Reading: Righteous Victims, by Benny Morris

11th July 2012, 06:19 AM	#45
Hercules Rockefeller Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Ponylandistan Posts: 1,384	Originally Posted by Chaos There´s also a difference between a lone nutter - or organized terrorism - and a religion consisting of over 1 billion innocent people. But, apparently, minor details like that don´t count when there´s hatred to indulge in. Yes, let's skip the rational discussion and go right to the hyperbole. The fact is still that religion and terrorism are linked and in this case found the way to my country. I don't think there's a positive angle to that.
	__________________ Quantum physics means that anything can happen at anytime and for no reason. Also, eat plenty of oatmeal, and animals never had a war! - Deepak Chopra

11th July 2012, 06:45 AM	#47
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,654	Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller Yes, let's skip the rational discussion and go right to the hyperbole. The fact is still that religion and terrorism are linked and in this case found the way to my country. I don't think there's a positive angle to that. terrorism is linked to humans.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

11th July 2012, 05:37 AM	#41
Ryokan Insert something funny here Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Norway Posts: 8,190	Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller I really don't like that my country suddenly has to thwart more than one terrorist attack because of some BS Muhammed drawings. If that doesn't show that Islam pose a threat I don't know what does? Since my country has experienced terrorism done by a Christian, I should feel that Christianity poses a threat?

11th July 2012, 06:42 AM	#46
Ryokan Insert something funny here Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Norway Posts: 8,190	Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller The fact is still that religion and terrorism are linked and in this case found the way to my country. I don't think there's a positive angle to that. No, there aren't any positive angles to that. However, that doesn't make it right to blame all Muslims for it, no more than it's right to blame all Christians for Anders Breivik, Timothy McVeigh or the IRA. Or all Hindus for the Tamil Tigers, for that matter.

11th July 2012, 06:57 AM	#48
Hercules Rockefeller Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Ponylandistan Posts: 1,384	Originally Posted by Ryokan No, there aren't any positive angles to that. However, that doesn't make it right to blame all Muslims for it, no more than it's right to blame all Christians for Anders Breivik, Timothy McVeigh or the IRA. Or all Hindus for the Tamil Tigers, for that matter. I never said I blame all Muslims for it? I still don't like Islam as I don't like any religion, but right now it's pretty much the only one linked to terrorism where I live. I believe I feel no different about it than had it been American bible belters planning a massacre on Jyllands Posten (the newspaper that printed the Muhammed Drawings.)
	__________________ Quantum physics means that anything can happen at anytime and for no reason. Also, eat plenty of oatmeal, and animals never had a war! - Deepak Chopra

11th July 2012, 07:05 AM	#49
Ryokan Insert something funny here Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Norway Posts: 8,190	Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller I never said I blame all Muslims for it? I still don't like Islam as I don't like any religion, but right now it's pretty much the only one linked to terrorism where I live. I believe I feel no different about it than had it been American bible belters planning a massacre on Jyllands Posten (the newspaper that printed the Muhammed Drawings.) Newspapers in my country have been threatened for printing those too. And Norwegian embassies burned to the ground because of it. But how on Earth this is linked to my Bosnian neighbour or the guys running the Turkish pizza restaurant across the street from me is beyond me. If you're not blaming all Muslims for these actions, what do you mean by Islam being 'linked' to terrorism? And how is that not painting all Muslims with the brush of terrorism? You can't say they're linked to terrorism, and at the same time say you don't put any blame on them. You're a white European from a culturally Christian country, so why shouldn't I link you to terrorism via Anders Breivik, considering where I live? Do you feel that link would be fair?

11th July 2012, 07:14 AM	#50
Hercules Rockefeller Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Ponylandistan Posts: 1,384	Originally Posted by Ryokan Newspapers in my country have been threatened for printing those too. And Norwegian embassies burned to the ground because of it. But how on Earth this is linked to my Bosnian neighbour or the guys running the Turkish pizza restaurant across the street from me is beyond me. If you're not blaming all Muslims for these actions, what do you mean by Islam being 'linked' to terrorism? And how is that not painting all Muslims with the brush of terrorism? You can't say they're linked to terrorism, and at the same time say you don't put any blame on them. You're a white European from a culturally Christian country, so why shouldn't I link you to terrorism via Anders Breivik, considering where I live? Do you feel that link would be fair? Do I really have to explain how Islam is linked to terrorism? My point is that religion is at best neutral and I really don't see that Islam has brought anything good to society where I live. Some Muslims have, absolutely, but not because of their religion. Do you see the differnce? Hilited part: No, cause I'm not religious.
	__________________ Quantum physics means that anything can happen at anytime and for no reason. Also, eat plenty of oatmeal, and animals never had a war! - Deepak Chopra

11th July 2012, 07:39 AM	#51
angrysoba Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 8,549	Originally Posted by ANTPogo http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/r...1905047898.jpg How do you make those things?

11th July 2012, 07:40 AM	#52
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,654	Originally Posted by angrysoba How do you make those things? photoshop and a bit rhetoric
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

11th July 2012, 07:50 AM	#53
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,408	Originally Posted by angrysoba How do you make those things? Stealing them, mostly.
	__________________ "A nation can survive with kufr, but not with zulm." - ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib "No more hurting people" - Martin William Richard Currently Reading: Righteous Victims, by Benny Morris

11th July 2012, 08:34 AM	#54
baron Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Hill Posts: 1,910	Originally Posted by Ryokan Newspapers in my country have been threatened for printing those too. And Norwegian embassies burned to the ground because of it. But how on Earth this is linked to my Bosnian neighbour or the guys running the Turkish pizza restaurant across the street from me is beyond me. If you're not blaming all Muslims for these actions, what do you mean by Islam being 'linked' to terrorism? And how is that not painting all Muslims with the brush of terrorism? You can't say they're linked to terrorism, and at the same time say you don't put any blame on them. You're a white European from a culturally Christian country, so why shouldn't I link you to terrorism via Anders Breivik, considering where I live? Do you feel that link would be fair? You seem to not understand the difference between Islam and Muslims. To support your argument that Islam and terrorism are not linked you would need to demonstrate that no act of terrorism has ever been carried out in the name of Islam. This is demonstrable nonsense and proven as such on a day-to-day basis. You don't even need to speculate on the link because in many cases it's given to you by the perpetrators of the act. If a fatwa is drawn up against a person for insulting the prophet and that person is then beheaded in the street by a Muslim shouting "Allahu Akbar" then I challenge you to disprove the link between Islam and the ensuing murder. Arguments of wider Muslim support and misinterpretation of scripture can all be had but they are necessarily subsequent to acceptance of the blatantly obvious, that Islam and terrorism are linked. This holds true for all religions.
	__________________

11th July 2012, 08:39 AM	#55
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,654	Originally Posted by baron You seem to not understand the difference between Islam and Muslims. To support your argument that Islam and terrorism are not linked you would need to demonstrate that no act of terrorism has ever been carried out in the name of Islam. This is demonstrable nonsense and proven as such on a day-to-day basis. You don't even need to speculate on the link because in many cases it's given to you by the perpetrators of the act. If a fatwa is drawn up against a person for insulting the prophet and that person is then beheaded in the street by a Muslim shouting "Allahu Akbar" then I challenge you to disprove the link between Islam and the ensuing murder. Arguments of wider Muslim support and misinterpretation of scripture can all be had but they are necessarily subsequent to acceptance of the blatantly obvious, that Islam and terrorism are linked. This holds true for all religions. what does it say about Islam when a few nuts claim to do their crimes in the name of Islam? what does it say about enviromentalism when a few nuts claim to do their crimes in the name of enviromentalism? terrorism is linked to many things. and in every case, it is linked to humans. what does that say about humans?
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

11th July 2012, 08:56 AM	#56
Hercules Rockefeller Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Ponylandistan Posts: 1,384	Originally Posted by DC what does it say about Islam when a few nuts claim to do their crimes in the name of Islam? what does it say about enviromentalism when a few nuts claim to do their crimes in the name of enviromentalism? terrorism is linked to many things. and in every case, it is linked to humans. what does that say about humans? We can try and turn it around. How do you think Islam is making a positive contribution to modern society?
	__________________ Quantum physics means that anything can happen at anytime and for no reason. Also, eat plenty of oatmeal, and animals never had a war! - Deepak Chopra

11th July 2012, 08:58 AM	#57
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,654	Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller We can try and turn it around. How do you think Islam is making a positive contribution to modern society? it doesn't, no religion does. but that doesn't mean all they do is negative.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

11th July 2012, 09:01 AM	#58
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,516	Originally Posted by Dcdrac I am am an aethiast A what ?
	__________________ The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za: "In the interests of time and space, it is not unreasonable to cite one point at a time. Citing 30 is the equivalent of citing none. Obviously." - Robert Prey "Physical evidence must be observed and interpreted by witnesses which makes it subjective and subject to mistakes and to fraud." - Robert Prey

11th July 2012, 09:06 AM	#59
Hercules Rockefeller Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Ponylandistan Posts: 1,384	Originally Posted by Belz... A what ? It's when you don't believe in Isam.
	__________________ Quantum physics means that anything can happen at anytime and for no reason. Also, eat plenty of oatmeal, and animals never had a war! - Deepak Chopra

11th July 2012, 09:08 AM	#60
baron Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Hill Posts: 1,910	Originally Posted by DC what does it say about Islam when a few nuts claim to do their crimes in the name of Islam? So you agree there's a link? If there is no link then your question doesn't make sense. And I think you need to define what you mean by "a few nuts". I have no figures for the number of Islamic terrorists worldwide but consider this; in one single country (Pakistan), in the past ten years alone, 25,000 Islamic terrorists have been killed by armed forces. That's just killed, not in existence, so we can assume the latter figure is orders of magnitudes higher. Extrapolating that figure across Afghanistan and Africa and other Islamic terrorism hotbeds and I get to thinking your definition of 'a few' does not coincide with mine. But as I said this is not relevant to my argument, which is that a clear link exists. Originally Posted by DC what does it say about enviromentalism when a few nuts claim to do their crimes in the name of enviromentalism? If this is true then there is a link between the environmental movement and violence. The analogy to Islam tends to stop there, however, as to my knowledge there is no doctrine of environmentalism that can be assessed for culpability. Originally Posted by DC terrorism is linked to many things. and in every case, it is linked to humans. what does that say about humans? Nothing of relevance.
	__________________

11th July 2012, 09:14 AM	#61
baron Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Hill Posts: 1,910	Originally Posted by Belz... A what ? I tend to side with Michelson and Morley so that makes me an anti-aethiast.
	__________________

11th July 2012, 09:15 AM	#62
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,408	Originally Posted by baron in one single country (Pakistan), in the past ten years alone, 25,000 Islamic terrorists have been killed by armed forces. That's not the number of terrorists killed in Pakistan in the last decade. That's the number of civilians killed by terrorists in Pakistan in the last decade. See here.
	__________________ "A nation can survive with kufr, but not with zulm." - ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib "No more hurting people" - Martin William Richard Currently Reading: Righteous Victims, by Benny Morris

11th July 2012, 09:17 AM	#63
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,783	Originally Posted by baron You seem to not understand the difference between Islam and Muslims. To support your argument that Islam and terrorism are not linked you would need to demonstrate that no act of terrorism has ever been carried out in the name of Islam. This is demonstrable nonsense and proven as such on a day-to-day basis. You don't even need to speculate on the link because in many cases it's given to you by the perpetrators of the act. If a fatwa is drawn up against a person for insulting the prophet and that person is then beheaded in the street by a Muslim shouting "Allahu Akbar" then I challenge you to disprove the link between Islam and the ensuing murder. Arguments of wider Muslim support and misinterpretation of scripture can all be had but they are necessarily subsequent to acceptance of the blatantly obvious, that Islam and terrorism are linked. This holds true for all religions. Problem with your reasoning is that it is just saying "humans are linked to terrorism" which is true but of very little utility. When most folks claim that Islam and terrorism are linked they are implying that there is something specific to Islam which creates that link.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

11th July 2012, 09:18 AM	#64
baron Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Hill Posts: 1,910	Originally Posted by ANTPogo That's not the number of terrorists killed in Pakistan in the last decade. That's the number of civilians killed by terrorists in Pakistan in the last decade. See here. Not according to this site - http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countr...casualties.htm It gives the figures as 24257 terrorists, 13614 civilians and 4525 forces. But if the site you quoted is correct then I'd suggest your figures indicate a higher number of actual terrorists than mine.
	__________________

11th July 2012, 09:18 AM	#65
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,654	Originally Posted by baron So you agree there's a link? If there is no link then your question doesn't make sense. And I think you need to define what you mean by "a few nuts". I have no figures for the number of Islamic terrorists worldwide but consider this; in one single country (Pakistan), in the past ten years alone, 25,000 Islamic terrorists have been killed by armed forces. That's just killed, not in existence, so we can assume the latter figure is orders of magnitudes higher. Extrapolating that figure across Afghanistan and Africa and other Islamic terrorism hotbeds and I get to thinking your definition of 'a few' does not coincide with mine. But as I said this is not relevant to my argument, which is that a clear link exists. If this is true then there is a link between the environmental movement and violence. The analogy to Islam tends to stop there, however, as to my knowledge there is no doctrine of environmentalism that can be assessed for culpability. Nothing of relevance. so why do you accept a link between Islam and terrorism, but other links to terrorism you ignore, why? here in europe far more terrorist atacks are done by non muslims than by muslims. https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/...te-sat2011.pdf
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

11th July 2012, 09:19 AM	#66
Dcdrac Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,678	Originally Posted by DC terrorism is linked to humans. Seconded, thirded and fourthed
Dcdrac Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,678

11th July 2012, 09:25 AM	#67
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,654	how can you conclude that 25k terrorists have been killed by armed forces when the statistics shown say "Fatalities in Terrorist Violence in Pakistan 2003-2012" also how do they accuratly differentiate between civilian and terrorists when its compiled from news articles? a strange homepage.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

11th July 2012, 09:26 AM	#68
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,408	Originally Posted by baron But if the site you quoted is correct then I'd suggest your figures indicate a higher number of actual terrorists than mine. No, they don't. There's no relationship between the number of terrorists killed and the number of people killed by terrorists, such that knowing one number would let you calculate the other.
	__________________ "A nation can survive with kufr, but not with zulm." - ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib "No more hurting people" - Martin William Richard Currently Reading: Righteous Victims, by Benny Morris

11th July 2012, 09:31 AM	#69
Dcdrac Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,678	Online racist abuse: we've all suffered it too Mehdi Hasan revealed the Islamophobic abuse he's endured online. It's something all racial minority writers face http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...e-writers-face
Dcdrac Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,678

11th July 2012, 09:38 AM	#70
baron Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Hill Posts: 1,910	Originally Posted by Darat Problem with your reasoning is that it is just saying "humans are linked to terrorism" which is true but of very little utility. When most folks claim that Islam and terrorism are linked they are implying that there is something specific to Islam which creates that link. I'm doing more than implying it, I'm asserting it as fact. You might argue about the validity of the flavours of Islam that call for terrorism and you might debate the extent to which they are observed in the Muslim world, but the link is self-evidently present. Originally Posted by DC so why do you accept a link between Islam and terrorism, but other links to terrorism you ignore, why? Because the topic of this thread is Islam. Should I arrive at a thread concerning environmental terrorism or Christian atrocities then I wager I'll address those issues too, assuming I'm sufficiently interested to participate. As an aside, when you yourself are on such a thread do you protest that nobody is mentioning Islamic terrorism or is your apologist protestation a one-way street? Originally Posted by DC how can you conclude that 25k terrorists have been killed by armed forces when the statistics shown say "Fatalities in Terrorist Violence in Pakistan 2003-2012" I don't care who they were killed by, it makes no difference to my point. Originally Posted by DC also how do they accuratly differentiate between civilian and terrorists when its compiled from news articles? If that's the case I imagine that the information was in the news articles. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, however. If it turned out that the figures are actually not 25,000 terrorists and 13,000 civilians killed, but 15,000 terrorists and 23,000 civilians, is this somehow helping your point that it's only a 'few nuts' who are responsible? Originally Posted by ANTPogo No, they don't. There's no relationship between the number of terrorists killed and the number of people killed by terrorists, such that knowing one number would let you calculate the other. In that case we'll just go with my figures until other figures emerge, at which point we can assess which ones are more evidential.
	__________________

11th July 2012, 09:42 AM	#71
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,654	Originally Posted by baron I'm doing more than implying it, I'm asserting it as fact. You might argue about the validity of the flavours of Islam that call for terrorism and you might debate the extent to which they are observed in the Muslim world, but the link is self-evidently present. Because the topic of this thread is Islam. Should I arrive at a thread concerning environmental terrorism or Christian atrocities then I wager I'll address those issues too, assuming I'm sufficiently interested to participate. As an aside, when you yourself are on such a thread do you protest that nobody is mentioning Islamic terrorism or is your apologist protestation a one-way street? I don't care who they were killed by, it makes no difference to my point. If that's the case I imagine that the information was in the news articles. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, however. If it turned out that the figures are actually not 25,000 terrorists and 13,000 civilians killed, but 15,000 terrorists and 23,000 civilians, is this somehow helping your point that it's only a 'few nuts' who are responsible? In that case we'll just go with my figures until other figures emerge, at which point we can assess which ones are more evidential. sounds like you accidnetly landed in the wrong thread, the topic here is Islamophobia. also it seem you do not read your sources carefully, there is no dispute that their numbers are from news articles.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it Last edited by DC; 11th July 2012 at 09:43 AM.

11th July 2012, 09:45 AM	#72
baron Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Hill Posts: 1,910	Originally Posted by Dcdrac Online racist abuse: we've all suffered it too Mehdi Hasan revealed the Islamophobic abuse he's endured online. It's something all racial minority writers face http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...e-writers-face Interesting that you defend a man who declared that atheists are cattle and of "no intelligence" and that non-Muslims are immoral and "live their lives like animals". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4hpfqFt-0Q
	__________________

11th July 2012, 09:48 AM	#73
baron Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Hill Posts: 1,910	Originally Posted by DC sounds like you accidnetly landed in the wrong thread, the topic here is Islamophobia. Take the trouble to follow the thread and you will find my points are on topic. Originally Posted by DC also it seem you do not read your sources carefully, there is no dispute that their numbers are from news articles. I don't care in the slightest as it's not relevant to my point. You appear to be very confused and your posts are incoherent.
	__________________

11th July 2012, 09:48 AM	#74
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,654	Originally Posted by baron Interesting that you defend a man who declared that atheists are cattle and of "no intelligence" and that non-Muslims are immoral and "live their lives like animals". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4hpfqFt-0Q oh well, the Koran is even harder on us atheists, we are actually lower than animals. all religions believe that those not part of their cult are living the wrong way. So what? i think the religious are living their live in the wrong way.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

11th July 2012, 09:49 AM	#75
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,654	Originally Posted by baron Take the trouble to follow the thread and you will find my points are on topic. I don't care in the slightest as it's not relevant to my point. You appear to be very confused and your posts are incoherent. yes i agree your posts are on topic, a the topic is Islamaphobia. no preoblem there. so you don't really care for the accuracy of the numbers you base your believes on?
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it Last edited by DC; 11th July 2012 at 09:51 AM.