"Magic" Tai Chi Powers

[Wudang]

Oh and the stooge is pushing, right? So his legs are straightening so why do his legs suddenly contract unless he's jumping?

And there's material and teaching traditions on fajing going back many years, all well understood and publicly taught so why do so many people say it's a big secret? Doug Wile's books are available on Amazon.

[Wudang]

As regards the protocol - "within styles like Tai Chi Chuan fajin is regarded as a paranormal ability" - this demonstrably untrue. See any number of teaching materials by the Chen family(founders of tai chi but don't quote me to my teacher) , or Wile's books above. It is most definitely a physical biomechanical force based on the "ground strength". See http://ismag.iay.org.uk/peng-index.htm

[wardenclyffe]

Stigweard,

I suggest you to start a protocol negotiation with the "demonstrators." You can use what you've got as a starting point. You will soon discover whether they are taking you seriously or whether you should be taking them seriously. Are they interested in just being tested or being tested for the prize money? What is motivating them to agree (in principle) to a test? If they are after the prize money (and there's nothing wrong with that---if I could win the prize, I'd go for it) it might change your role in the negotiations.

Ward

[wardenclyffe]

Originally Posted by Wudang

As regards the protocol - "within styles like Tai Chi Chuan fajin is regarded as a paranormal ability" - this demonstrably untrue. See any number of teaching materials by the Chen family(founders of tai chi but don't quote me to my teacher) , or Wile's books above. It is most definitely a physical biomechanical force based on the "ground strength". See http://ismag.iay.org.uk/peng-index.htm

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what the majority of practitioners think. It only really matters what an applicant claims. If the claim is that they are doing something paranormal and a protocol is developed that excludes other mundane causes for the effect, then it's go time. I agree though that that info in the protocol is unnecessary, but it opens an interesting discussion on a topic that I know very little about.

Ward

P.S. My prediction is that when Stigweard tries to pin them down to a real protocol, they will become far less interested in being tested.

[Lamuella]

Tai Chi is no more magical than Chai tea.

[rjh01]

Yellow bamboo anyone?

[Horatius]

Reading the protocol, I'm unclear as to the intent of this section:

Quote:

If the coin flip result is ‘tails’ then the Demonstrator makes no attempt HOWEVER the test subject must still take up the test stance and touch the forearms of the Demonstrator as if a test was to take place. Only the Demonstrator will make NO attempt to demonstrate fajin.

After either an attempt or a non-attempt the test subject will be escorted from the room (via another door – i.e. the test subject will not be permitted to have any interaction with other possible test subjects) by an Adjudicator.

The test will be repeated with a different test subject until a total of 10 actual (i.e. the Demonstrator does attempt to physically move the test subject) attempts have been conducted.

What is the point of showing he can stand there doing nothing?

[SumDood]

Originally Posted by Horatius

What is the point of showing he can stand there doing nothing?

I believe to weed out any 'ringers' who will fake being pushed back by the Tai Chi master. My first idea was to have the test subjects blind folded so they won't know if its the master or someone else 'pushing' them back.

[crimresearch]

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate

At first that’s what I thought he was trying to demonstrate. The principal makes sense. Image a wall, or just a big steel plate. It has some hydraulics behind it that will push the plate forward an inch or two. If you push lightly on the plate, then when it jumps forward, all that happens is that your arms bend and maybe your shoulders move back a bit. A worst you get a bit of a jarring bump on your wrists. But if you move and heave ho good and strong against the wall, then you have no flexibility to absorb the energy from the wall. When the wall moves forward, your whole body gets a jolt, and you might even get knocked back a step.

But you won’t get hoppy toads. To get a hoppy toad you need some kind of upward force, So the person would have to be pushing down. And with the stances in the video, it would be almost impossible. The force is being applied to hands or fists on out stretched arms. What would happen is that the arms would rotate at the shoulders. You would have to have a person pushing almost straight down and with incredible strength to keep the arms and shoulders locked in order to transfer the force up on the whole body and get even a little skip off the floor. I’m not sure if it would even be possible without tearing an arm out of the socket, although my hunch is that in the right conditions it would be possible to get a very small bump off the floor with minor or even no damage to the body.

But that is not what is in the video. Take, for example, the demonstration where the guy has his fist on his back. Think about that steel plate. Image a person with their fists out at chest level against a steel plate. The steel plate has hydraulics that can apply any amount of force, and amount many times that capable by any human being. No matter what angle you move that plate forward and no matter how much force you apply, you are not going to push that person up like it shows in the video. No hoppy toad.

I would tend to think that the students are creating or at least adding to, the 'upward force' themselves by hopping backwards to avoid the jolt, rather than that this particular person has gotten the results shown in the videos entirely through his 'power'.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by SumDood

I believe to weed out any 'ringers' who will fake being pushed back by the Tai Chi master. My first idea was to have the test subjects blind folded so they won't know if its the master or someone else 'pushing' them back.

If that's the case, then the coin flip and decision should be made before the test subject enters the room, so they don't know what the flip was.

Also, if you're worried about ringers getting into the test pool, you'd need some way to prevent communication via the touching. I'm sure with practice I could come up with a subtle move that would tell someone touching me they should fake the jump, that wouldn't be readily apparent to an outside observer. Touch is much more sensitive than eyesight.

I'm not sure what you could do to detect that, though.

[crimresearch]

Originally Posted by Stigweard

Wow ... great responses all ... breath of fresh air actually to get some critical thinking rather than the carry on the Tai Chi folks make about this.

I apologize in advance if I don't address your comments directly here...

OK so here is the "claim":

Michael Phillips, and those of the same persuasion, claim that through the "non-bio-mechanical" power of Fajin they can "bounce" opponents away (regardless of opponent size or environmental factors) with ONLY the lightest touch of the opponent's fingertips touching the forearms of the demonstrator (see 8:15 Mysteries of Tai Chi Chuan - Part 1 of 3).

To be clear this is Michael's description:

“The outward sign of fajin is that the wrists and elbows of the person issuing fa-jin do not follow the opponent, as they would if one were merely "pushing" with the muscles - in Chinese, this is called "The arrow is fired, but the bow remains." The real test is to stand with one's feet parallel with someone at least your own size facing you in a well-rooted bow-stance, and instantly shear him off his feet, both feet clear off the ground in a single moment, and send him backwards 3-4 feet with his feet ending in the same alignment. All of this done with the demonstrator having no discernible tension in one's shoulders, elbows, or wrists.

Whilst there may be a visible "pulse-wave" passing thru the body-system, if someones elbow accelerates forward and follows the trajectory of the opponent as he is thrown backwards, what has just occurred is definitely NOT [Tai Chi] fajin!"

Michael claims that this is NOT based on "normal" bio-mechanics (see 8:43 Mysteries of Tai Chi Chuan - Part 1 of 3) and that there is absolutely no muscular strength (commonly called "external strength" as opposed to the "internal strength" fajin that Michael claims to be proficient at) being used in the technique.

In conversation with Michael and other "believers" they claim repeatedly, and rather obtusely, that this fajin is beyond the scope of normal scientific understanding or explanation thus, at least in my mind, fulfilling the requirement of it being a claim of paranormal ability.

I would say do not let those who are claiming this isn't a purely bio-mechanical process, create the definitions.

Have them produce a force against a measuring device.

Get a mechanical source to produce the same levels of force.

Have both sources apply said force against test subjects and see if the claimed observable phenomenon occurs.

[Wudang]

may I suggest :
demonstrator weights shorts so leg motions can be seen
demonstrator does not get to pick who to work with from the pool (not sure if that was clear) as I know a couple of tai chi fakers who are very good at picking patsies from an audience.
And I'll see you yellow bamboo and raise you Pathgate

[Lanzy]

As a mental exercise I suppose this has some merit, but the fakers will never agree to be tested if the fake can be revealed. I suppose someone will agree just to "prove" he isn't faking and wants whatever publicity this will get them.

I really like the idea of using weights/dummies/inanimate objects to be the things being moved. In all my years of martial arts experience no one has ever done this.

As an irrelevant side note, I have over 25 years of Hapkido, Jujitsu, Judo, and general MMA training, coaching and in ring experience. I have also won one national breaking competetion.

[jsfisher]

Having the assistant stand on pressure sensors should do the trick. Heck, even the right sort of shock-absorbing foam could probably be used to eliminate fakery.

[Stigweard]

Great work folks, I am reading and taking notes ... I will edit the original draft shortly with some of your excellent suggestions

[wardenclyffe]

I'm glad you are excited about this, but I'm afraid you might be doing a lot of work for nothing. Ultimately, the testing protocol must be negotiated between the applicant (or demonstrator in your case) and the testing organization (JREF, IIG, whoever). At this point you are sort of a middle-man and your work could be rejected at any point by either side. It might be better for you to get one of the demonstrators to actually apply for one of the prizes. Then you can be in on the negotiations assuming one side or the other allows it. I would think if they were going for one of the prizes with finder's fee, you'd have more right to be involved. I still think your protocol is a good starting point for both sides, but ultimately those are the people who have to sign off on everything and I think it would be smart to get them involved sooner rather than later to avoid having a whole bunch of work potentially thrown out the window.

Ward

[Robrob]

Quote:

The counterintuitive part is how can a smaller/older person make a slight twitch, and get such an explosive reaction from a larger/younger person?

Certainly would look like it. I've had some experience with martial arts demonstrations and tournaments.

My experience is presumably the same as used in the video. The opponent "cooperates" with the attack in a Hollywood style. In college I studied Yoshukai Karate. Because I had a previous background in Japanese Ju-Jitsu (more like Judo than what you see in MMA), I was everyone's favorite "Uke" (fall guy opponent) in tournament competitions. I could be thrown through the air with minimal effort (I didn't fight the move) and land with a resounding theatrical "SLAM!"

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally Posted by crimresearch

I would tend to think that the students are creating or at least adding to, the 'upward force' themselves by hopping backwards to avoid the jolt, rather than that this particular person has gotten the results shown in the videos entirely through his 'power'.

What "jolt"? Watch part 2 at 0:46. When Phillips moves his back, the guys arms bend, then he jumps. If he had kept his feet flat on the floor, all that would have happened would have been that his arms would have bent a little bit. There is no “jolt” there to jump away from.

[DevilsAdvocate]

I see lots of problems with the protocol.

Why do 10 “actual” attempts? Does the Demonstrator have to successfully move all 10 in order to pass? So as soon as 1 “actual” attempt fails, the applicant fails? What about the “fake” attempts? If the Demonstrator moves the person on one of the fake attempts, does the applicant fail? What if the Demonstrator claims that he is such a powerful Tai Chi master that sometimes in that pose his Fa Jin goes off even when he doesn’t want it to?

Exactly how far back does a person have to be moved to count as a pass of a “actual” test? How is this measured? How is it determined whether or not both feet came off the ground? Do they have to be off the ground at the same time? What if the person is pushed back, but instead of hopping they sort of leap with one foot and then the other, but at some point both feet are off the ground; does that count?

How are the random subjects selected? If the subjects don’t know what it is that is expected to be done to them, how do you make sure none of them have health or physical issues that could cause them problems, whether the Fa Jin works or not? How do you make sure that none of the “randomly” selected subjects are not in cahoots with the Demonstrator?

And as Horatius pointed out, if any of the subjects are secretly in league with the Demonstrator, limiting noises that could be used as communication is pointless. They could easily come up with all kinds of complex methods of communication that could not be detected: looking in a certain direction, touching a certain place on the body, bending a finger in a certain way, placing the feet in a certain direction, moving an arm or a leg a certain way, or any combination of such things that could be different for each trial.

I appreciate the work you have done here, but it is better to keep it simple. All you need is one reliable subject who you know won’t cheat. Then the test is simple. Really all you need is a narrow cardboard box, a board, and a tape measure.

The box is placed between the Demonstrator and the Subject. The Demonstrator has to stay on his side of the box (and of course the Subject will stay on his side). The purpose is to limit the Demonstrator ‘s forward movement so that he does use any “illegal moves” such as just barreling into the Subject like a defensive lineman or trying to grab the Subject and pick him up and throw him backward. Any simple barrier would do: small table, stool, chair, trash can, fence, or even just a bar at about waist height.

The other element is the board. About 3/4 inch thick, 3 long, and 6 inches high. This is set up at, say, 6 inches behind the Subject’s feet. This little hurdle is our measuring device. The objective of the test is for the Demonstrator to stand on his side of the barrier and turn the Subject into a hoppy toad and bounce him up and over the hurdle. To pass the test, he must move the Subject’s feet to the other side of the hurdle without knocking the hurdle over.

That’s it. The Demonstrator could have maybe 3 tries at 30 seconds each. Maybe a couple minutes break between each try. And, of course, before the test the Demonstrator could work with one of his students to make sure the set up and his Fa Jin and life force energy and so forth is working properly.

And I still like my idea of getting the Subject’s toes off the ground. Maybe get another one of those 3/4 inch boards and have the Subject stand with his toes up on the board. That would make it very difficult to even involuntarily jump back over the hurdle.

[Stigweard]

Originally Posted by wardenclyffe

I'm glad you are excited about this, but I'm afraid you might be doing a lot of work for nothing. Ultimately, the testing protocol must be negotiated between the applicant (or demonstrator in your case) and the testing organization (JREF, IIG, whoever). At this point you are sort of a middle-man and your work could be rejected at any point by either side. It might be better for you to get one of the demonstrators to actually apply for one of the prizes. Then you can be in on the negotiations assuming one side or the other allows it. I would think if they were going for one of the prizes with finder's fee, you'd have more right to be involved. I still think your protocol is a good starting point for both sides, but ultimately those are the people who have to sign off on everything and I think it would be smart to get them involved sooner rather than later to avoid having a whole bunch of work potentially thrown out the window.

Ward

Heya Ward, no risk of wasted work here. I have a long-term reason for this so all efforts here will be used in one way or another. At the moment I am very happy to work with you good folk first. You are independent of the issue and thus you are providing the objectivity I need for this stage of things. Once I have something that can pass judgement here as fair and effective, then I will move onto the next stage and get folks who want to give the test a go involved. Cheers

[wardenclyffe]

That's your call to make. I doubt you'll ever get everyone here to agree on anything, much less a final protocol, but take the criticism you get here and use what makes sense and discard the rest. Again, the work you do now with or without the help of forum members might be rejected by the Fa Jin guys or by the testing organizations at any time. Be prepared for the possibility of that rejection.

Ward

P.S. Looking forward to a second draft.

[Stigweard]

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate

I see lots of problems with the protocol.

Why do 10 “actual” attempts? Does the Demonstrator have to successfully move all 10 in order to pass? So as soon as 1 “actual” attempt fails, the applicant fails? What about the “fake” attempts? If the Demonstrator moves the person on one of the fake attempts, does the applicant fail? What if the Demonstrator claims that he is such a powerful Tai Chi master that sometimes in that pose his Fa Jin goes off even when he doesn’t want it to?

Exactly how far back does a person have to be moved to count as a pass of a “actual” test? How is this measured? How is it determined whether or not both feet came off the ground? Do they have to be off the ground at the same time? What if the person is pushed back, but instead of hopping they sort of leap with one foot and then the other, but at some point both feet are off the ground; does that count?

How are the random subjects selected? If the subjects don’t know what it is that is expected to be done to them, how do you make sure none of them have health or physical issues that could cause them problems, whether the Fa Jin works or not? How do you make sure that none of the “randomly” selected subjects are not in cahoots with the Demonstrator?

And as Horatius pointed out, if any of the subjects are secretly in league with the Demonstrator, limiting noises that could be used as communication is pointless. They could easily come up with all kinds of complex methods of communication that could not be detected: looking in a certain direction, touching a certain place on the body, bending a finger in a certain way, placing the feet in a certain direction, moving an arm or a leg a certain way, or any combination of such things that could be different for each trial.

I appreciate the work you have done here, but it is better to keep it simple. All you need is one reliable subject who you know won’t cheat. Then the test is simple. Really all you need is a narrow cardboard box, a board, and a tape measure.

The box is placed between the Demonstrator and the Subject. The Demonstrator has to stay on his side of the box (and of course the Subject will stay on his side). The purpose is to limit the Demonstrator ‘s forward movement so that he does use any “illegal moves” such as just barreling into the Subject like a defensive lineman or trying to grab the Subject and pick him up and throw him backward. Any simple barrier would do: small table, stool, chair, trash can, fence, or even just a bar at about waist height.

The other element is the board. About 3/4 inch thick, 3 long, and 6 inches high. This is set up at, say, 6 inches behind the Subject’s feet. This little hurdle is our measuring device. The objective of the test is for the Demonstrator to stand on his side of the barrier and turn the Subject into a hoppy toad and bounce him up and over the hurdle. To pass the test, he must move the Subject’s feet to the other side of the hurdle without knocking the hurdle over.

That’s it. The Demonstrator could have maybe 3 tries at 30 seconds each. Maybe a couple minutes break between each try. And, of course, before the test the Demonstrator could work with one of his students to make sure the set up and his Fa Jin and life force energy and so forth is working properly.

And I still like my idea of getting the Subject’s toes off the ground. Maybe get another one of those 3/4 inch boards and have the Subject stand with his toes up on the board. That would make it very difficult to even involuntarily jump back over the hurdle.

Great stuff matey, lots of things to consider:

Q: Why do 10 “actual” attempts? Does the Demonstrator have to successfully move all 10 in order to pass? So as soon as 1 “actual” attempt fails, the applicant fails?

A: The protocol says that 10 actual attempts are made and a successfull test is 6 "hits" out of 10

Q: If the Demonstrator moves the person on one of the fake attempts, does the applicant fail? What if the Demonstrator claims that he is such a powerful Tai Chi master that sometimes in that pose his Fa Jin goes off even when he doesn’t want it to?

A: Fair point. The idea with the coin toss is, as correctly pointed out above, to further randomize the test subjects to minimize the possible skewed results from "stooges" infiltrating the test sample. That the purpose so is there a better way??

Q: How are the random subjects selected?

A: Yup good question. If the test was say at a university it could come from the student body. Any suggestions??

Q: If the subjects don’t know what it is that is expected to be done to them, how do you make sure none of them have health or physical issues that could cause them problems, whether the Fa Jin works or not?

A: A pre-test screening questionnaire could work. Or else just recruit a local football team

Q: How do you make sure that none of the “randomly” selected subjects are not in cahoots with the Demonstrator?

A: Firstly by not letting the Demonstrator know where the test subjects are being being source from before the test. And again, even if one or two cohorts get through the door, the coin toss would further randomize results.

Q: Exactly how far back does a person have to be moved to count as a pass of a “actual” test? How is this measured?

A: Under "Definition of Fajin" in the draft it says quite clearly "and send him backwards 3-4 feet". This could be measured with pre-test markings on the floor.

Q: How is it determined whether or not both feet came off the ground? Do they have to be off the ground at the same time? What if the person is pushed back, but instead of hopping they sort of leap with one foot and then the other, but at some point both feet are off the ground; does that count?

A: Michael Phillips is quite clear that he "can instantly shear the opponent off their feet, both feet clear off the ground in a single moment". Thus both feet leave the ground at the same time and land at the same time. A side-on camera angle will be sufficient to determine this. Both feet have to be clearly off the floor at the same time.

I appreciate the simplicity of having only one test subject. But how do you know with 100% that they wont be compliant? Perhaps recruiting MMA fighters like they did when investigating Tom Cameron (search "The Human Stun Gun Investigation" on Youtube). MMA lads can be trusted to "keep it real".

The barrier idea is fine but I don't see that it is necessary, and the hurdle idea is to much of a hazard risk in terms of the subject stumbling backwards accidentally.

Cheers for your input matey, keep those objective thoughts rolling

[Stigweard]

Originally Posted by crimresearch

I would say do not let those who are claiming this isn't a purely bio-mechanical process, create the definitions.

Have them produce a force against a measuring device.

Get a mechanical source to produce the same levels of force.

Have both sources apply said force against test subjects and see if the claimed observable phenomenon occurs.

Would be nice if it was that easy. Intrinsic with the claim is that the fajiner actually projects an energy into the opponent (Jin) which reacts with their nervous system to create the effect. In this sense it has been likened to an electric shock. So it is "said" that it only works against flesh and bone not mechanical instruments.

My wife, bless her, replied "Well maybe they should try and fajin a horse !! ""

[Stigweard]

Originally Posted by Scopedog

I forgot to mention, don't read the skeptical comments in the article and don't look at the videos where the tai chi masters get their butts kicked. Only look at the videos where the masters demonstrate their tai chi power. Those videos prove the undeniable paranormal power of tai chi. The other videos in the link are fake.

LOL did you just say "Don't look at the evidence that proves them wrong but just focus on the hogwash BS claims" ???

Have I missed some sublimely subtle humor here ??

[Stigweard]

Originally Posted by wardenclyffe

Not a bad start. Has Michael Phillips already agreed to this specific protocol or has he just agreed to be tested in general?

Also, these types of tests should have self-evident results that do not require "adjudicators." There might be some people who can do measurments, etc., but there should be no judges who make subjective decisions. The results should be obvious to everyone in the room and everyone watching a live video feed or subequent recording.

Also, there would have to be a more exact agreement about what is a "hit." Actually your description of a "hit" is pretty good, but it should probably include what is not a hit, as well. It should be made clear that stepping back doesn't count, hopping back two feet doesn't count, etc. This prevents applicants (if they should fail the test) from successfully retro-fitting misses into hits. They still try, but it helps a lot if they've already agreed to what counts as a miss.

I also think it will be hard to find test subjects who will be willing to go in as blind as you are suggesting. I know if I were a test subject and I were asked to walk into a room and touch a man I'd never met (and who was standing in a strange posture) lightly on the forearm, I'd be worried that I was in store for some sort of electric shock or something. I'd be extremely apprehensive.

So those are things that I think need to be worked out, but I still think you have a fairly reasonable start, assuming the demonstrators are on board, which is not clear at this point.

Ward

Excellent points which will be taken into consideration

[Stigweard]

Originally Posted by jsfisher

Having the assistant stand on pressure sensors should do the trick. Heck, even the right sort of shock-absorbing foam could probably be used to eliminate fakery.

Pressure sensors are a fair thought ... adds to the complexity and difficulty of setting up a test ... but still a fair thought

[jsfisher]

Originally Posted by Stigweard

Pressure sensors are a fair thought ... adds to the complexity and difficulty of setting up a test ... but still a fair thought

No, it simplifies things greatly. Collusion is not longer a concern. No coin flips. None of that. Either the assistant is lifted up then back by some seemingly paranormal force or he jumps. The sensors would detect which.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by Stigweard

LOL did you just say "Don't look at the evidence that proves them wrong but just focus on the hogwash BS claims" ???

Have I missed some sublimely subtle humor here ??

Yeah, you did. Happens a lot around here!

Originally Posted by Stigweard

Would be nice if it was that easy. Intrinsic with the claim is that the fajiner actually projects an energy into the opponent (Jin) which reacts with their nervous system to create the effect. In this sense it has been likened to an electric shock. So it is "said" that it only works against flesh and bone not mechanical instruments.

My wife, bless her, replied "Well maybe they should try and fajin a horse !! ""

Originally Posted by jsfisher

No, it simplifies things greatly. Collusion is not longer a concern. No coin flips. None of that. Either the assistant is lifted up then back by some seemingly paranormal force or he jumps. The sensors would detect which.

Problem with the sensors idea: if the claim is as above, that they're somehow causing an involuntary reaction in the target's "nervous system", then they actually are "jumping", they're just doing it involuntarily because of the "energy". So you'd expect the sensors to detect a jumping action.



Perhaps we should expand the pool of targets: keep 10 of the random people, but then also do it with 10 of his own students, and 10 selected skeptical martial artists. His 10 students would establish a baseline of what it is he is really doing (establish a profile of what the sensors "should" output), then let him try it with the other 20 people (but don't tell him who is who). See if there's any detectable differences in reaction and/or sensor output between the three groups.

[crimresearch]

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate

What "jolt"? Watch part 2 at 0:46. When Phillips moves his back, the guys arms bend, then he jumps. If he had kept his feet flat on the floor, all that would have happened would have been that his arms would have bent a little bit. There is no “jolt” there to jump away from.

If you are claiming that the teacher is standing absolutely still and not applying force in any way shape or form, then we are looking at 2 different things.

[wardenclyffe]

I think the demonstrator would be able to tell who had martial arts training and who didn't fairly easily. I expect there'd be a number of "tells" that a martial arts student would have based on how they walked and carried themselves and even their stance when they touched the forearm. I'd think an experienced teacher would be able to spot them from a mile away.

Ward

[Pope130]

If I understand the claim correctly the force applied is said to be irresistible. The target is lifted up and projected backward without any effort on his part. There should be no need for the targets to be ignorant of the purpose and details of the test, only that they not try to assist the demonstrator.
Why not use members of the testing organization who will consciously resist the effort. If the power is real it will work anyway.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by Pope130

Why not use members of the testing organization who will consciously resist the effort. If the power is real it will work anyway.

The problem there is you open up the possibility of George Dillman-like excuses about why it didn't work. "Oh, because you used nothing but trained Bullshido forum members, they unconsciously knew the trick to deflect the Magic Tai Chi Power!"

We wouldn't buy that line, but others might, so we have to design the test to try to eliminate that excuse.

[xtifr]

Seems like a cheap sort of martial art that can be defeated simply by wanting to!

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by xtifr

Seems like a cheap sort of martial art that can be defeated simply by wanting to!

It's not cheap at all. Just ask Mr. Dillman!

[crimresearch]

Originally Posted by Horatius

It's not cheap at all. Just ask Mr. Dillman!

Ahh yes... 'Light Force'. as in lightening the customer's wallets.

Remember this is a mixture of show biz/circus tricks, building a congregation of followers, cowing the superstitious, and outright scamming.

Somewhere at the bottom is a real physical factor of at least a minimal effect, but the job is to make it look like magic.

[Stigweard]

A recent video by Michael Phillips ... search Youtube:

"Michael Phillips 2011 youtube video"

And another proponent of fajin Adam Mizner

"Adam Mizner Fajin demo at the Texas School of Tai Chi 2010"

[crimresearch]

Originally Posted by Stigweard

A recent video by Michael Phillips ... search Youtube:

"Michael Phillips 2011 youtube video"

And another proponent of fajin Adam Mizner

"Adam Mizner Fajin demo at the Texas School of Tai Chi 2010"

You do realize that not everyone doing Taiji and talking about jin is talking about mystical energy forces don't you? Only 99% of them are.

Since I have no clue as to who Michael Phillips is, and he's got about an hour of stuff up on You Tube (15 minutes under your last post alone), would you specify exactly where he in particular says mystical energy forces lift people off the ground with no bio-mechanical factors? A time stamp or website would be nice.

[Pope130]

Originally Posted by xtifr

Seems like a cheap sort of martial art that can be defeated simply by wanting to!

That was my feeling on this. A combat technique which only works on people who don't oppose you seems to lack any real value.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally Posted by crimresearch

Since I have no clue as to who Michael Phillips is, and he's got about an hour of stuff up on You Tube (15 minutes under your last post alone), would you specify exactly where he in particular says mystical energy forces lift people off the ground with no bio-mechanical factors? A time stamp or website would be nice.

I'm not sure if you are trolling or joking or haven't watched the videos or what. You clearly have some “clue as to who Michael Phillips is” from your 2nd post in this thread:

Originally Posted by crimresearch

If those videos are the Michael Phillips ones, 'bounce jin' and so on are real things.

As far as "no bio-mechanical factors":

Mysteries of Tai Chi Chuan - Part 1 of 3, time stamp 8:44.

Quote:

In case you think this is a case of bio-mechanics I'm using, I'm going to...if you grab a chair...I'm going to put myself in a chair and sit down and pick up my two feet. So you can see I’m not using a system of bars and levers, or something, or some normal bio-mechanical thing.

And throughout this video series he speaks of the "mystery” of Tai Chi, and the “energy” and being able to “lift” the person off the ground. Phillips even explains (Part 1, 6:50) that this is not just applying force that pushes somebody over where they stumble back, but rather actually where

Quote:

“both feet are sheared off the ground at the same second, there is clear space under the person’s feet, and the person lands in approximately the same position that they take off. They don’t go all “blooey” and twisted up [makes motions like someone being pushed back at the shoulders and stepping back]. It’s so quick [finger snap] that they don’t have time to readjust, and so strong that their nervous system pretty much freezes them in place.”

[Orphia Nay]

"Methods used The test is structured as close to a double-blind as possible. The main test subject, referred to as the Demonstrator, will be attempting to perform fajin on randomly selected, unknowing and unprepared test subjects within a controlled environment.

...

"Test subjects would be asked a simply lead-in questionnaire as to their knowledge and experience of martial arts, in particular Chinese IMA. This will be used to correlate post-test data."


Asking them questions about martial arts is preparing them.

I'm pretty sure I'd be nervous about any approach from a stranger if I stepped into that room after being asked such questions, making it highly likely that I'd jump back - no paranormal powers would be required.