The End of Money and the Liberation of Exchange

!Kaggen · 11th July 2012, 02:24 AM

Thomas H. Greco talks about the next stage of money - credit clearing.
A way to organize reciprocal exchanges of goods and services which don't cost the earth.

Part 1

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I AGREE

Part2

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Part 3

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Part 4

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I AGREE

Darat · 11th July 2012, 02:26 AM

And?

psionl0 · 11th July 2012, 02:35 AM

11:22 + 10:02 + 8:34 + 9:13 = 39:11 or, as some would say, yt;dw.

(I might put it on the TV tonight if my family doesn't protest).

JJM 777 · 11th July 2012, 03:30 AM

Originally Posted by !Kaggen

reciprocal exchanges of goods and services which don't cost the earth

Hmm.

I am doubtful about the production costs in this scenario, because production of most things is dramatically cheaper and higher quality, if prduction is large-scale to a large (national or global) market area, and the labour force specializes in deep understanding of a specific narrow skill. Money is necessary to evaluate and share the costs and profits between all the numerous people participating in effective and highly specialized large-scale production.

That is why money is not going away soon, or ever.

!Kaggen · 11th July 2012, 04:21 AM

website
http://www.reinventingmoney.com/index.html
blog
http://beyondmoney.net/

!Kaggen · 11th July 2012, 04:30 AM

Originally Posted by JJM 777

Hmm.

I am doubtful about the production costs in this scenario, because production of most things is dramatically cheaper and higher quality, if prduction is large-scale to a large (national or global) market area, and the labour force specializes in deep understanding of a specific narrow skill. Money is necessary to evaluate and share the costs and profits between all the numerous people participating in effective and highly specialized large-scale production.

That is why money is not going away soon, or ever.

Depends.
Cheaper in isolation to every other "cost" factor such as social disintegration, environmental degradation, energy costs skewed by subsidies, etc... Of course these "costs" are born by society as a whole rather than accounted for by the companies that benefit from mass production.
Quality is mostly associated with handmade, low production runs. So this is not correct.

Careyp74 · 11th July 2012, 05:17 AM

Those are all good examples of the need for public speaking skills when speaking in public. I found it very hard to stay focused on the subject while the guy droned on.

One thing that I like to do is memorize the key points of what I was trying to say. Using memory palaces and association is a good way to handle this.

Once you have everything memorized, the entire speech has been emblazoned into the memory, and you no longer need to read from a script. Also, there is more spontaneity in what you are saying.

psionl0 makes another good point. The total running time of the videos were close to 40 minutes. Had he been speaking at a normal pace, he could have knocked it down to maybe 25, or even 20 minutes. This would help keep the interest of the viewer. Memorization would help in this area as well.

Careyp74 · 11th July 2012, 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by !Kaggen

Quality is mostly associated with handmade, low production runs. So this is not correct.

That comment is what is not correct. People might perceive an extra value in hand made items, but that value is not quality.

Quality comes from standards, which newer technologies are able to exact with proficiency that low running hand made production methods cannot.

Careyp74 · 11th July 2012, 05:24 AM

I want to ask about a point in the second video.

When banks make a loan, they are not using deposited money (whether it is the cash handed in at the teller, or the values of the accounts that the people have with the bank) they are creating new money.

If this is so, why can't I just create my own bank, and start loaning out my created money?

DrDave · 11th July 2012, 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by !Kaggen

Thomas H. Greco talks nonsense

yt;dw

But I bet I'm right

Careyp74 · 11th July 2012, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by DrDave

yt;dw

But I bet I'm right

My last post was one of his talking points. Is that how it really is?

psionl0 · 11th July 2012, 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by Careyp74

I want to ask about a point in the second video.

When banks make a loan, they are not using deposited money (whether it is the cash handed in at the teller, or the values of the accounts that the people have with the bank) they are creating new money.

If this is so, why can't I just create my own bank, and start loaning out my created money?

You can. Bank account balances are just IOUs issued by the bank. You can also exchange IOUs with someone else if you want to.

The difference is that while "bank IOUs" are almost universally accepted, you will have trouble finding any strangers to accept your IOU - especially a third party IOU.

!Kaggen · 11th July 2012, 05:56 AM

Originally Posted by DrDave

yt;dw

But I bet I'm right

Great argument, I am convinced.

DrDave · 11th July 2012, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by !Kaggen

Great argument, I am convinced.

Should have asked me before you watched them. Would have saved you 40 minutes

!Kaggen · 11th July 2012, 06:10 AM

Originally Posted by Careyp74

That comment is what is not correct. People might perceive an extra value in hand made items, but that value is not quality.

Quality comes from standards, which newer technologies are able to exact with proficiency that low running hand made production methods cannot.

Tell that to the owners of a Stradivarius violin or a Michelin 3 star chef or a Katana maker.

Sceptic-PK · 11th July 2012, 06:42 AM

Lord knows katana sales drive the world economy.

Startz · 11th July 2012, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by Careyp74

When banks make a loan, they are not using deposited money (whether it is the cash handed in at the teller, or the values of the accounts that the people have with the bank) they are creating new money.

If this is so, why can't I just create my own bank, and start loaning out my created money?

You can, after all people start new banks all the time. However, there might be a few gotchya's.

1. If you're in the United States, you'll need a license.
2. You have to have a fraction of loans in capital, invested in approved assets.
3. You have to have a fraction of deposits in a reserve "checking" account, either at the Federal Reserve or, in some circumstances, at another bank.
4. Presumably the new money you create is by giving borrowers checking accounts or the equivalent at your bank. People borrow money to spend. So when they write checks on the accounts you give them, you're going to have to have money to transfer to other banks to cover the withdrawals.

Careyp74 · 11th July 2012, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by Startz

You can, after all people start new banks all the time. However, there might be a few gotchya's.

1. If you're in the United States, you'll need a license.
2. You have to have a fraction of loans in capital, invested in approved assets.
3. You have to have a fraction of deposits in a reserve "checking" account, either at the Federal Reserve or, in some circumstances, at another bank.
4. Presumably the new money you create is by giving borrowers checking accounts or the equivalent at your bank. People borrow money to spend. So when they write checks on the accounts you give them, you're going to have to have money to transfer to other banks to cover the withdrawals.

Your post gives me the idea that it really isn't new money at all that is being created. Is this a fair assessment?

Startz · 11th July 2012, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by Startz

You can, after all people start new banks all the time. However, there might be a few gotchya's.

1. If you're in the United States, you'll need a license.
2. You have to have a fraction of loans in capital, invested in approved assets.
3. You have to have a fraction of deposits in a reserve "checking" account, either at the Federal Reserve or, in some circumstances, at another bank.
4. Presumably the new money you create is by giving borrowers checking accounts or the equivalent at your bank. People borrow money to spend. So when they write checks on the accounts you give them, you're going to have to have money to transfer to other banks to cover the withdrawals.

Originally Posted by Careyp74

Your post gives me the idea that it really isn't new money at all that is being created. Is this a fair assessment?

Not exactly. There's no new wealth being created. There is an equal expansion of both assets (the loans) and liabilities (the money). So money does increase, but it's offset by a corresponding debt to the bank.

Careyp74 · 11th July 2012, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by !Kaggen

Tell that to the owners of a Stradivarius violin

collectors items go up in price all the time, no surprise there. Other similar hand made instruments do not have that value, perhaps the Stradivarius value is because of the maker, and not from being hand made.

I see it in pool cues too. The name is what gives it the value, long after the cues go from being hand made to machined. Quality actually goes up once they are machined, because of control and consistency.

I bet you Stradivarius made some pretty crappy violins at one time, or another, but they get trashed instead of sold.

Originally Posted by !Kaggen

or a Michelin 3 star chef

Are you trying to say that food is hand made? Ok, I will buy that, but what food is not hand made that loses the quality? Packaged food is not fresh, there is the difference. Pretty much every restaurant uses chefs, so why aren't ALL restaurants given the 3 star rating?

Originally Posted by !Kaggen

or a Katana maker.

It is pretty hard to make a katana any other way than by hand. Either way, there are many poor quality hand made katanas, so you still don't have a valid point.

Careyp74 · 11th July 2012, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by Startz

Not exactly. There's no new wealth being created. There is an equal expansion of both assets (the loans) and liabilities (the money). So money does increase, but it's offset by a corresponding debt to the bank.

That is what I thought, but I don't have the knowledge to argue it.

NewtonTrino · 11th July 2012, 08:15 AM

It's hard to talk about "quality" without accurately defining it. I think the range of quality varies across both mass manufactured and hand made goods quite dramatically.

It's pretty hard to make something like a computer by hand at all, you simply need big expensive machines in which case making a bunch of chips at once is dramatically cheaper and there is no comparable hand made good that has any quality level at all even existing.

Careyp74 · 11th July 2012, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by NewtonTrino

It's hard to talk about "quality" without accurately defining it. I think the range of quality varies across both mass manufactured and hand made goods quite dramatically.

It's pretty hard to make something like a computer by hand at all, you simply need big expensive machines in which case making a bunch of chips at once is dramatically cheaper and there is no comparable hand made good that has any quality level at all even existing.

Yes, you are right, making one think that it isn't the "hand made" factor which automatically contributes to quality.

As far as the computer goes, at least with circuit boards, I can personally attest to your statement from having seen far less quality from hand made components than from machine made ones. While not every process in the production is hand made, there can be much done by hand. Human error can be removed in that area to give much better quality.

Spindrift · 11th July 2012, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by !Kaggen

Tell that to the owners of a Stradivarius violin or a Michelin 3 star chef or a Katana maker.

My neighbor had an addition put on by hand. It was a crappy job. Another neighbor tore down his house and bought a factory made house. It's well-made, gorgeous and cheaper.

BTW: Technically Michelin gives stars to restaurants not chefs.

Belz... · 11th July 2012, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by !Kaggen

Tell that to the owners of a Stradivarius violin or a Michelin 3 star chef or a Katana maker.

Argument from single-point statistic.

sam84 · 11th July 2012, 12:56 PM

regarding the starting your own bank idea, might find this interesting :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2012...-dave-fishwick

Quote:

David Buik of City brokers BGC Partners, swiftly dismissed the idea of Bank of Dave obtaining a licence, saying: "You don't have a chance."

Another expert told him that, in the past, "if you went to the right school and had the right parents you might be considered a fit and proper person to go into the banking industry ... there is no evidence you are."

Humes fork · 11th July 2012, 01:13 PM

Why does so much crackpottery get posted here?

You can't do away with money, people will simply replace it with something else (which then becomes money), because it's so convenient to have a medium of exchange. During the Yugoslav Wars cigarettes were used as the medium of exchange.

Almo · 11th July 2012, 01:29 PM

yt; dw.

Kaggen, please don't just post big long videos. Summarize them for us so we know if we're interested in watching or not. It's easy to skim text at a link to see if it is interesting, but you can't do that with video. It's not time I'm willing to spend for something that, judging by the title of the thread, is probably more crackpot economics.

Earthborn · 11th July 2012, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by !Kaggen

Part 1 (snip) Part2 (snip) Part 3 (snip) Part 4

These are not parts of the same video. Part 1 is "Part 1" of a 3 part video titled: "Thomas H. Greco: The End of Money and the Liberation of Exchange", while part 2, 3, 4 are part 2, 3, 4 of a completely different video titled "Tom Greco Daniel Pinchbeck".

GodMark2 · 11th July 2012, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by !Kaggen

Tell that to the owners of a Stradivarius violin or a Michelin 3 star chef or a Katana maker.

I know I'm totally digging my handcrafted hard drive. Those manually polished mahogany read heads make all the difference. It totally makes my digital audio collection sound so much better.

psionl0 · 11th July 2012, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by !Kaggen

Thomas H. Greco talks about the next stage of money - credit clearing.
A way to organize reciprocal exchanges of goods and services which don't cost the earth.

Originally Posted by !Kaggen

website
http://www.reinventingmoney.com/index.html
blog
http://beyondmoney.net/

Following http://www.reinventingmoney.com/index.html lead me to barternews.com and a blog titled: THE ORIGINAL MEANING OF TRADE MEETS THE FUTURE IN BARTER .

If this is about the same thing then it is pretty much describing a LETS style system.

psionl0 · 11th July 2012, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by JJM 777

Hmm.

I am doubtful about the production costs in this scenario, because production of most things is dramatically cheaper and higher quality, if prduction is large-scale to a large (national or global) market area, and the labour force specializes in deep understanding of a specific narrow skill. Money is necessary to evaluate and share the costs and profits between all the numerous people participating in effective and highly specialized large-scale production.

That is why money is not going away soon, or ever.

There is no proposal to do away with money here.

Sceptic-PK · 12th July 2012, 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by Careyp74

I want to ask about a point in the second video.

When banks make a loan, they are not using deposited money (whether it is the cash handed in at the teller, or the values of the accounts that the people have with the bank) they are creating new money.

If this is so, why can't I just create my own bank, and start loaning out my created money?

Originally Posted by psionl0

You can. Bank account balances are just IOUs issued by the bank. You can also exchange IOUs with someone else if you want to.

No he can't. He first needs his reserve funds to do the actual lending. I know you know this and this isn't a correction of you, just saying.

...

You can virtually guarantee that anyone that memes "banks create money out of thin air" is not worth 40 mins of youtube.

kevsta · 12th July 2012, 01:48 AM

Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK

No he can't. He first needs his reserve funds to do the actual lending. I know you know this and this isn't a correction of you, just saying.

...

You can virtually guarantee that anyone that memes "banks create money out of thin air" is not worth 40 mins of youtube.

in all of yours and psionl0's discussions on this subject, I assume that you have fully taken into account the shadow banking system which is as big as the conventional system you discuss, but entirely without deposits?

edit, a little reading for in case youre not totally familiar with how it works these days

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/verge-...shadow-banking

Sceptic-PK · 12th July 2012, 02:13 AM

No, we've never delved into the shadow banking system when discussing fractional lending (the shadow banking system that comprises of 25%-30% of the financial system according to these people: http://www.financialstabilityboard.org/ FYI).

kevsta · 12th July 2012, 02:16 AM

Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK

No, we've never delved into the shadow banking system when discussing fractional lending (the shadow banking system that comprises of 25%-30% of the financial system according to these people: http://www.financialstabilityboard.org/ FYI).

well don't you think you're missing a big part of the picture arguing semantics about the way it supposedly used to all work?

and lol at the oxymoron url

Sceptic-PK · 12th July 2012, 02:55 AM

What's the shadow banking system got to do with fractional lending and its impacts on deposit expansion?

kevsta · 12th July 2012, 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK

What's the shadow banking system got to do with fractional lending ..?

really?

I cant phrase it any better than this, so I'll use theirs.

Quote:

However, unlike traditional banks, shadow banking has one huge deficiency: it has no deposits! In other words, the entire rickety shadow banking system is based simply on the good faith and credit that rehypothecated assets, converted into liabilities, and so on (think repos and reverse repos) courtesy of fractional reserve credit formation (recall rehypothecation), are valid and credible sources of liquidity.

here's a nice easy to follow schematic of how it all works. well maybe not that easy, but i'm sure it's all real kosher wealth, not just a giant ponzi scheme or anything.

Sceptic-PK · 12th July 2012, 03:09 AM

That's just the kind of dishonest edit I'd expect from you.

kevsta · 12th July 2012, 03:30 AM

Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK

That's just the kind of dishonest edit I'd expect from you.

lol, I dont follow? - genuinely? do you mean editing of your quote?

or from the article?

please explain my dishonest editing more fully so i can either defend myself or apologise and (try

) not to do it again.

11th July 2012, 02:26 AM	#2
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,770	And?
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

11th July 2012, 04:21 AM	#5
!Kaggen Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Cape Town Posts: 3,437	website http://www.reinventingmoney.com/index.html blog http://beyondmoney.net/
	__________________ "Anyway, why is a finely-engineered machine of wire and silicon less likely to be conscious than two pounds of warm meat?" Pixy Misa http://bokashiworld.wordpress.com/

11th July 2012, 04:30 AM	#6
!Kaggen Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Cape Town Posts: 3,437	Originally Posted by JJM 777 Hmm. I am doubtful about the production costs in this scenario, because production of most things is dramatically cheaper and higher quality, if prduction is large-scale to a large (national or global) market area, and the labour force specializes in deep understanding of a specific narrow skill. Money is necessary to evaluate and share the costs and profits between all the numerous people participating in effective and highly specialized large-scale production. That is why money is not going away soon, or ever. Depends. Cheaper in isolation to every other "cost" factor such as social disintegration, environmental degradation, energy costs skewed by subsidies, etc... Of course these "costs" are born by society as a whole rather than accounted for by the companies that benefit from mass production. Quality is mostly associated with handmade, low production runs. So this is not correct.
	__________________ "Anyway, why is a finely-engineered machine of wire and silicon less likely to be conscious than two pounds of warm meat?" Pixy Misa http://bokashiworld.wordpress.com/

11th July 2012, 05:56 AM	#13
!Kaggen Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Cape Town Posts: 3,437	Originally Posted by DrDave yt;dw But I bet I'm right Great argument, I am convinced.
	__________________ "Anyway, why is a finely-engineered machine of wire and silicon less likely to be conscious than two pounds of warm meat?" Pixy Misa http://bokashiworld.wordpress.com/

11th July 2012, 06:10 AM	#15
!Kaggen Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Cape Town Posts: 3,437	Originally Posted by Careyp74 That comment is what is not correct. People might perceive an extra value in hand made items, but that value is not quality. Quality comes from standards, which newer technologies are able to exact with proficiency that low running hand made production methods cannot. Tell that to the owners of a Stradivarius violin or a Michelin 3 star chef or a Katana maker.
	__________________ "Anyway, why is a finely-engineered machine of wire and silicon less likely to be conscious than two pounds of warm meat?" Pixy Misa http://bokashiworld.wordpress.com/

11th July 2012, 02:35 AM	#3
psionl0 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°58'S 115°57'E Posts: 4,768	11:22 + 10:02 + 8:34 + 9:13 = 39:11 or, as some would say, yt;dw. (I might put it on the TV tonight if my family doesn't protest).

11th July 2012, 03:30 AM	#4
JJM 777 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 3,175	Originally Posted by !Kaggen reciprocal exchanges of goods and services which don't cost the earth Hmm. I am doubtful about the production costs in this scenario, because production of most things is dramatically cheaper and higher quality, if prduction is large-scale to a large (national or global) market area, and the labour force specializes in deep understanding of a specific narrow skill. Money is necessary to evaluate and share the costs and profits between all the numerous people participating in effective and highly specialized large-scale production. That is why money is not going away soon, or ever.

11th July 2012, 05:17 AM	#7
Careyp74 Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Trevose, PA Posts: 3,407	Those are all good examples of the need for public speaking skills when speaking in public. I found it very hard to stay focused on the subject while the guy droned on. One thing that I like to do is memorize the key points of what I was trying to say. Using memory palaces and association is a good way to handle this. Once you have everything memorized, the entire speech has been emblazoned into the memory, and you no longer need to read from a script. Also, there is more spontaneity in what you are saying. psionl0 makes another good point. The total running time of the videos were close to 40 minutes. Had he been speaking at a normal pace, he could have knocked it down to maybe 25, or even 20 minutes. This would help keep the interest of the viewer. Memorization would help in this area as well.

11th July 2012, 05:21 AM	#8
Careyp74 Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Trevose, PA Posts: 3,407	Originally Posted by !Kaggen Quality is mostly associated with handmade, low production runs. So this is not correct. That comment is what is not correct. People might perceive an extra value in hand made items, but that value is not quality. Quality comes from standards, which newer technologies are able to exact with proficiency that low running hand made production methods cannot.

11th July 2012, 05:24 AM	#9
Careyp74 Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Trevose, PA Posts: 3,407	I want to ask about a point in the second video. When banks make a loan, they are not using deposited money (whether it is the cash handed in at the teller, or the values of the accounts that the people have with the bank) they are creating new money. If this is so, why can't I just create my own bank, and start loaning out my created money?

11th July 2012, 05:42 AM	#10
DrDave Guest Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 3,110	Originally Posted by !Kaggen Thomas H. Greco talks nonsense yt;dw But I bet I'm right

11th July 2012, 05:48 AM	#11
Careyp74 Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Trevose, PA Posts: 3,407	Originally Posted by DrDave yt;dw But I bet I'm right My last post was one of his talking points. Is that how it really is?

11th July 2012, 05:51 AM	#12
psionl0 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°58'S 115°57'E Posts: 4,768	Originally Posted by Careyp74 I want to ask about a point in the second video. When banks make a loan, they are not using deposited money (whether it is the cash handed in at the teller, or the values of the accounts that the people have with the bank) they are creating new money. If this is so, why can't I just create my own bank, and start loaning out my created money? You can. Bank account balances are just IOUs issued by the bank. You can also exchange IOUs with someone else if you want to. The difference is that while "bank IOUs" are almost universally accepted, you will have trouble finding any strangers to accept your IOU - especially a third party IOU.

11th July 2012, 05:57 AM	#14
DrDave Guest Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 3,110	Originally Posted by !Kaggen Great argument, I am convinced. Should have asked me before you watched them. Would have saved you 40 minutes

11th July 2012, 06:42 AM	#16
Sceptic-PK Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 2,402	Lord knows katana sales drive the world economy.

11th July 2012, 06:50 AM	#17
Startz Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 388	Originally Posted by Careyp74 When banks make a loan, they are not using deposited money (whether it is the cash handed in at the teller, or the values of the accounts that the people have with the bank) they are creating new money. If this is so, why can't I just create my own bank, and start loaning out my created money? You can, after all people start new banks all the time. However, there might be a few gotchya's. 1. If you're in the United States, you'll need a license. 2. You have to have a fraction of loans in capital, invested in approved assets. 3. You have to have a fraction of deposits in a reserve "checking" account, either at the Federal Reserve or, in some circumstances, at another bank. 4. Presumably the new money you create is by giving borrowers checking accounts or the equivalent at your bank. People borrow money to spend. So when they write checks on the accounts you give them, you're going to have to have money to transfer to other banks to cover the withdrawals.

11th July 2012, 07:47 AM	#18
Careyp74 Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Trevose, PA Posts: 3,407	Originally Posted by Startz You can, after all people start new banks all the time. However, there might be a few gotchya's. 1. If you're in the United States, you'll need a license. 2. You have to have a fraction of loans in capital, invested in approved assets. 3. You have to have a fraction of deposits in a reserve "checking" account, either at the Federal Reserve or, in some circumstances, at another bank. 4. Presumably the new money you create is by giving borrowers checking accounts or the equivalent at your bank. People borrow money to spend. So when they write checks on the accounts you give them, you're going to have to have money to transfer to other banks to cover the withdrawals. Your post gives me the idea that it really isn't new money at all that is being created. Is this a fair assessment?

11th July 2012, 07:51 AM	#19
Startz Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 388	Originally Posted by Startz You can, after all people start new banks all the time. However, there might be a few gotchya's. 1. If you're in the United States, you'll need a license. 2. You have to have a fraction of loans in capital, invested in approved assets. 3. You have to have a fraction of deposits in a reserve "checking" account, either at the Federal Reserve or, in some circumstances, at another bank. 4. Presumably the new money you create is by giving borrowers checking accounts or the equivalent at your bank. People borrow money to spend. So when they write checks on the accounts you give them, you're going to have to have money to transfer to other banks to cover the withdrawals. Originally Posted by Careyp74 Your post gives me the idea that it really isn't new money at all that is being created. Is this a fair assessment? Not exactly. There's no new wealth being created. There is an equal expansion of both assets (the loans) and liabilities (the money). So money does increase, but it's offset by a corresponding debt to the bank.

11th July 2012, 07:59 AM	#20
Careyp74 Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Trevose, PA Posts: 3,407	Originally Posted by !Kaggen Tell that to the owners of a Stradivarius violin collectors items go up in price all the time, no surprise there. Other similar hand made instruments do not have that value, perhaps the Stradivarius value is because of the maker, and not from being hand made. I see it in pool cues too. The name is what gives it the value, long after the cues go from being hand made to machined. Quality actually goes up once they are machined, because of control and consistency. I bet you Stradivarius made some pretty crappy violins at one time, or another, but they get trashed instead of sold. Originally Posted by !Kaggen or a Michelin 3 star chef Are you trying to say that food is hand made? Ok, I will buy that, but what food is not hand made that loses the quality? Packaged food is not fresh, there is the difference. Pretty much every restaurant uses chefs, so why aren't ALL restaurants given the 3 star rating? Originally Posted by !Kaggen or a Katana maker. It is pretty hard to make a katana any other way than by hand. Either way, there are many poor quality hand made katanas, so you still don't have a valid point.

11th July 2012, 08:00 AM	#21
Careyp74 Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Trevose, PA Posts: 3,407	Originally Posted by Startz Not exactly. There's no new wealth being created. There is an equal expansion of both assets (the loans) and liabilities (the money). So money does increase, but it's offset by a corresponding debt to the bank. That is what I thought, but I don't have the knowledge to argue it.

11th July 2012, 08:15 AM	#22
NewtonTrino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bothell, WA Posts: 3,782	It's hard to talk about "quality" without accurately defining it. I think the range of quality varies across both mass manufactured and hand made goods quite dramatically. It's pretty hard to make something like a computer by hand at all, you simply need big expensive machines in which case making a bunch of chips at once is dramatically cheaper and there is no comparable hand made good that has any quality level at all even existing.

11th July 2012, 08:49 AM	#23
Careyp74 Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Trevose, PA Posts: 3,407	Originally Posted by NewtonTrino It's hard to talk about "quality" without accurately defining it. I think the range of quality varies across both mass manufactured and hand made goods quite dramatically. It's pretty hard to make something like a computer by hand at all, you simply need big expensive machines in which case making a bunch of chips at once is dramatically cheaper and there is no comparable hand made good that has any quality level at all even existing. Yes, you are right, making one think that it isn't the "hand made" factor which automatically contributes to quality. As far as the computer goes, at least with circuit boards, I can personally attest to your statement from having seen far less quality from hand made components than from machine made ones. While not every process in the production is hand made, there can be much done by hand. Human error can be removed in that area to give much better quality.

11th July 2012, 11:44 AM	#24
Spindrift Enturbulator Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 8,449	Originally Posted by !Kaggen Tell that to the owners of a Stradivarius violin or a Michelin 3 star chef or a Katana maker. My neighbor had an addition put on by hand. It was a crappy job. Another neighbor tore down his house and bought a factory made house. It's well-made, gorgeous and cheaper. BTW: Technically Michelin gives stars to restaurants not chefs.
	__________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.

11th July 2012, 11:58 AM	#25
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,500	Originally Posted by !Kaggen Tell that to the owners of a Stradivarius violin or a Michelin 3 star chef or a Katana maker. Argument from single-point statistic.
	__________________ The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za: "In the interests of time and space, it is not unreasonable to cite one point at a time. Citing 30 is the equivalent of citing none. Obviously." - Robert Prey "Physical evidence must be observed and interpreted by witnesses which makes it subjective and subject to mistakes and to fraud." - Robert Prey

11th July 2012, 12:56 PM	#26
sam84 Scholar Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 52	regarding the starting your own bank idea, might find this interesting : http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2012...-dave-fishwick Quote: David Buik of City brokers BGC Partners, swiftly dismissed the idea of Bank of Dave obtaining a licence, saying: "You don't have a chance." Another expert told him that, in the past, "if you went to the right school and had the right parents you might be considered a fit and proper person to go into the banking industry ... there is no evidence you are."
sam84 Scholar Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 52	Last edited by sam84; 11th July 2012 at 02:08 PM.

11th July 2012, 01:13 PM	#27
Humes fork Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,356	Why does so much crackpottery get posted here? You can't do away with money, people will simply replace it with something else (which then becomes money), because it's so convenient to have a medium of exchange. During the Yugoslav Wars cigarettes were used as the medium of exchange.
	__________________ "Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated." - Christopher Hitchens

11th July 2012, 01:29 PM	#28
Almo Masterblazer Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 6,406	yt; dw. Kaggen, please don't just post big long videos. Summarize them for us so we know if we're interested in watching or not. It's easy to skim text at a link to see if it is interesting, but you can't do that with video. It's not time I'm willing to spend for something that, judging by the title of the thread, is probably more crackpot economics.
	__________________ Almo! My Blog "No society ever collapsed because the poor had too much." — LeftySergeant "It may be that there is no body really at rest, to which the places and motions of others may be referred." –Issac Newton in the Principia

11th July 2012, 01:42 PM	#29
Earthborn Terrestrial Intelligence Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Terra Firma Posts: 5,647	Originally Posted by !Kaggen Part 1 (snip) Part2 (snip) Part 3 (snip) Part 4 These are not parts of the same video. Part 1 is "Part 1" of a 3 part video titled: "Thomas H. Greco: The End of Money and the Liberation of Exchange", while part 2, 3, 4 are part 2, 3, 4 of a completely different video titled "Tom Greco Daniel Pinchbeck".
	__________________ Perhaps nothing is entirely true; and not even that! Multatuli

11th July 2012, 04:18 PM	#30
GodMark2 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 1,042	Originally Posted by !Kaggen Tell that to the owners of a Stradivarius violin or a Michelin 3 star chef or a Katana maker. I know I'm totally digging my handcrafted hard drive. Those manually polished mahogany read heads make all the difference. It totally makes my digital audio collection sound so much better.
	__________________ Knowing that we do not know, it does not necessarily follow that we can not know.

11th July 2012, 07:12 PM	#31
psionl0 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°58'S 115°57'E Posts: 4,768	Originally Posted by !Kaggen Thomas H. Greco talks about the next stage of money - credit clearing. A way to organize reciprocal exchanges of goods and services which don't cost the earth. Originally Posted by !Kaggen website http://www.reinventingmoney.com/index.html blog http://beyondmoney.net/ Following http://www.reinventingmoney.com/index.html lead me to barternews.com and a blog titled: THE ORIGINAL MEANING OF TRADE MEETS THE FUTURE IN BARTER . If this is about the same thing then it is pretty much describing a LETS style system.

11th July 2012, 07:14 PM	#32
psionl0 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°58'S 115°57'E Posts: 4,768	Originally Posted by JJM 777 Hmm. I am doubtful about the production costs in this scenario, because production of most things is dramatically cheaper and higher quality, if prduction is large-scale to a large (national or global) market area, and the labour force specializes in deep understanding of a specific narrow skill. Money is necessary to evaluate and share the costs and profits between all the numerous people participating in effective and highly specialized large-scale production. That is why money is not going away soon, or ever. There is no proposal to do away with money here.

12th July 2012, 01:20 AM	#33
Sceptic-PK Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 2,402	Originally Posted by Careyp74 I want to ask about a point in the second video. When banks make a loan, they are not using deposited money (whether it is the cash handed in at the teller, or the values of the accounts that the people have with the bank) they are creating new money. If this is so, why can't I just create my own bank, and start loaning out my created money? Originally Posted by psionl0 You can. Bank account balances are just IOUs issued by the bank. You can also exchange IOUs with someone else if you want to. No he can't. He first needs his reserve funds to do the actual lending. I know you know this and this isn't a correction of you, just saying. ... You can virtually guarantee that anyone that memes "banks create money out of thin air" is not worth 40 mins of youtube.

12th July 2012, 01:48 AM	#34
kevsta RBL CHeck Failed Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: in the shadows Posts: 2,404	Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK No he can't. He first needs his reserve funds to do the actual lending. I know you know this and this isn't a correction of you, just saying. ... You can virtually guarantee that anyone that memes "banks create money out of thin air" is not worth 40 mins of youtube. in all of yours and psionl0's discussions on this subject, I assume that you have fully taken into account the shadow banking system which is as big as the conventional system you discuss, but entirely without deposits? edit, a little reading for in case youre not totally familiar with how it works these days http://www.zerohedge.com/news/verge-...shadow-banking
	__________________ "The world will soon wake up to the reality that everyone is broke and can collect nothing from the bankrupt, who are owed unlimited amounts by the insolvent, who are attempting to make late payments on a bank holiday in the wrong country, with an unacceptable currency, against defaulted collateral, of which nobody is sure who holds title." - Anonymous Last edited by kevsta; 12th July 2012 at 02:07 AM.

12th July 2012, 02:13 AM	#35
Sceptic-PK Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 2,402	No, we've never delved into the shadow banking system when discussing fractional lending (the shadow banking system that comprises of 25%-30% of the financial system according to these people: http://www.financialstabilityboard.org/ FYI).

12th July 2012, 02:16 AM	#36
kevsta RBL CHeck Failed Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: in the shadows Posts: 2,404	Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK No, we've never delved into the shadow banking system when discussing fractional lending (the shadow banking system that comprises of 25%-30% of the financial system according to these people: http://www.financialstabilityboard.org/ FYI). well don't you think you're missing a big part of the picture arguing semantics about the way it supposedly used to all work? and lol at the oxymoron url
	__________________ "The world will soon wake up to the reality that everyone is broke and can collect nothing from the bankrupt, who are owed unlimited amounts by the insolvent, who are attempting to make late payments on a bank holiday in the wrong country, with an unacceptable currency, against defaulted collateral, of which nobody is sure who holds title." - Anonymous