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Old 11th July 2012, 02:24 AM   #1
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The End of Money and the Liberation of Exchange

Thomas H. Greco talks about the next stage of money - credit clearing.
A way to organize reciprocal exchanges of goods and services which don't cost the earth.

Part 1
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Old 11th July 2012, 02:26 AM   #2
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And?
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Old 11th July 2012, 02:35 AM   #3
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11:22 + 10:02 + 8:34 + 9:13 = 39:11 or, as some would say, yt;dw.

(I might put it on the TV tonight if my family doesn't protest).
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Old 11th July 2012, 03:30 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by !Kaggen View Post
reciprocal exchanges of goods and services which don't cost the earth
Hmm.

I am doubtful about the production costs in this scenario, because production of most things is dramatically cheaper and higher quality, if prduction is large-scale to a large (national or global) market area, and the labour force specializes in deep understanding of a specific narrow skill. Money is necessary to evaluate and share the costs and profits between all the numerous people participating in effective and highly specialized large-scale production.

That is why money is not going away soon, or ever.
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Old 11th July 2012, 04:21 AM   #5
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Old 11th July 2012, 04:30 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
Hmm.

I am doubtful about the production costs in this scenario, because production of most things is dramatically cheaper and higher quality, if prduction is large-scale to a large (national or global) market area, and the labour force specializes in deep understanding of a specific narrow skill. Money is necessary to evaluate and share the costs and profits between all the numerous people participating in effective and highly specialized large-scale production.

That is why money is not going away soon, or ever.
Depends.
Cheaper in isolation to every other "cost" factor such as social disintegration, environmental degradation, energy costs skewed by subsidies, etc... Of course these "costs" are born by society as a whole rather than accounted for by the companies that benefit from mass production.
Quality is mostly associated with handmade, low production runs. So this is not correct.
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Old 11th July 2012, 05:17 AM   #7
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Those are all good examples of the need for public speaking skills when speaking in public. I found it very hard to stay focused on the subject while the guy droned on.

One thing that I like to do is memorize the key points of what I was trying to say. Using memory palaces and association is a good way to handle this.

Once you have everything memorized, the entire speech has been emblazoned into the memory, and you no longer need to read from a script. Also, there is more spontaneity in what you are saying.

psionl0 makes another good point. The total running time of the videos were close to 40 minutes. Had he been speaking at a normal pace, he could have knocked it down to maybe 25, or even 20 minutes. This would help keep the interest of the viewer. Memorization would help in this area as well.
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Old 11th July 2012, 05:21 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by !Kaggen View Post
Quality is mostly associated with handmade, low production runs. So this is not correct.
That comment is what is not correct. People might perceive an extra value in hand made items, but that value is not quality.

Quality comes from standards, which newer technologies are able to exact with proficiency that low running hand made production methods cannot.
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Old 11th July 2012, 05:24 AM   #9
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I want to ask about a point in the second video.

When banks make a loan, they are not using deposited money (whether it is the cash handed in at the teller, or the values of the accounts that the people have with the bank) they are creating new money.

If this is so, why can't I just create my own bank, and start loaning out my created money?
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Old 11th July 2012, 05:42 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by !Kaggen View Post
Thomas H. Greco talks nonsense
yt;dw

But I bet I'm right
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Old 11th July 2012, 05:48 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by DrDave View Post
yt;dw

But I bet I'm right
My last post was one of his talking points. Is that how it really is?
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Old 11th July 2012, 05:51 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Careyp74 View Post
I want to ask about a point in the second video.

When banks make a loan, they are not using deposited money (whether it is the cash handed in at the teller, or the values of the accounts that the people have with the bank) they are creating new money.

If this is so, why can't I just create my own bank, and start loaning out my created money?
You can. Bank account balances are just IOUs issued by the bank. You can also exchange IOUs with someone else if you want to.

The difference is that while "bank IOUs" are almost universally accepted, you will have trouble finding any strangers to accept your IOU - especially a third party IOU.
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Old 11th July 2012, 05:56 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by DrDave View Post
yt;dw

But I bet I'm right
Great argument, I am convinced.
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Old 11th July 2012, 05:57 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by !Kaggen View Post
Great argument, I am convinced.
Should have asked me before you watched them. Would have saved you 40 minutes
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Old 11th July 2012, 06:10 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Careyp74 View Post
That comment is what is not correct. People might perceive an extra value in hand made items, but that value is not quality.

Quality comes from standards, which newer technologies are able to exact with proficiency that low running hand made production methods cannot.
Tell that to the owners of a Stradivarius violin or a Michelin 3 star chef or a Katana maker.
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Old 11th July 2012, 06:42 AM   #16
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Lord knows katana sales drive the world economy.
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Old 11th July 2012, 06:50 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Careyp74 View Post
When banks make a loan, they are not using deposited money (whether it is the cash handed in at the teller, or the values of the accounts that the people have with the bank) they are creating new money.

If this is so, why can't I just create my own bank, and start loaning out my created money?
You can, after all people start new banks all the time. However, there might be a few gotchya's.

1. If you're in the United States, you'll need a license.
2. You have to have a fraction of loans in capital, invested in approved assets.
3. You have to have a fraction of deposits in a reserve "checking" account, either at the Federal Reserve or, in some circumstances, at another bank.
4. Presumably the new money you create is by giving borrowers checking accounts or the equivalent at your bank. People borrow money to spend. So when they write checks on the accounts you give them, you're going to have to have money to transfer to other banks to cover the withdrawals.
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Old 11th July 2012, 07:47 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Startz View Post
You can, after all people start new banks all the time. However, there might be a few gotchya's.

1. If you're in the United States, you'll need a license.
2. You have to have a fraction of loans in capital, invested in approved assets.
3. You have to have a fraction of deposits in a reserve "checking" account, either at the Federal Reserve or, in some circumstances, at another bank.
4. Presumably the new money you create is by giving borrowers checking accounts or the equivalent at your bank. People borrow money to spend. So when they write checks on the accounts you give them, you're going to have to have money to transfer to other banks to cover the withdrawals.
Your post gives me the idea that it really isn't new money at all that is being created. Is this a fair assessment?
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Old 11th July 2012, 07:51 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Startz View Post
You can, after all people start new banks all the time. However, there might be a few gotchya's.

1. If you're in the United States, you'll need a license.
2. You have to have a fraction of loans in capital, invested in approved assets.
3. You have to have a fraction of deposits in a reserve "checking" account, either at the Federal Reserve or, in some circumstances, at another bank.
4. Presumably the new money you create is by giving borrowers checking accounts or the equivalent at your bank. People borrow money to spend. So when they write checks on the accounts you give them, you're going to have to have money to transfer to other banks to cover the withdrawals.
Originally Posted by Careyp74 View Post
Your post gives me the idea that it really isn't new money at all that is being created. Is this a fair assessment?
Not exactly. There's no new wealth being created. There is an equal expansion of both assets (the loans) and liabilities (the money). So money does increase, but it's offset by a corresponding debt to the bank.
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Old 11th July 2012, 07:59 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by !Kaggen View Post
Tell that to the owners of a Stradivarius violin
collectors items go up in price all the time, no surprise there. Other similar hand made instruments do not have that value, perhaps the Stradivarius value is because of the maker, and not from being hand made.

I see it in pool cues too. The name is what gives it the value, long after the cues go from being hand made to machined. Quality actually goes up once they are machined, because of control and consistency.

I bet you Stradivarius made some pretty crappy violins at one time, or another, but they get trashed instead of sold.

Originally Posted by !Kaggen View Post
or a Michelin 3 star chef
Are you trying to say that food is hand made? Ok, I will buy that, but what food is not hand made that loses the quality? Packaged food is not fresh, there is the difference. Pretty much every restaurant uses chefs, so why aren't ALL restaurants given the 3 star rating?

Originally Posted by !Kaggen View Post
or a Katana maker.
It is pretty hard to make a katana any other way than by hand. Either way, there are many poor quality hand made katanas, so you still don't have a valid point.
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Old 11th July 2012, 08:00 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Startz View Post
Not exactly. There's no new wealth being created. There is an equal expansion of both assets (the loans) and liabilities (the money). So money does increase, but it's offset by a corresponding debt to the bank.
That is what I thought, but I don't have the knowledge to argue it.
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Old 11th July 2012, 08:15 AM   #22
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It's hard to talk about "quality" without accurately defining it. I think the range of quality varies across both mass manufactured and hand made goods quite dramatically.

It's pretty hard to make something like a computer by hand at all, you simply need big expensive machines in which case making a bunch of chips at once is dramatically cheaper and there is no comparable hand made good that has any quality level at all even existing.
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Old 11th July 2012, 08:49 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
It's hard to talk about "quality" without accurately defining it. I think the range of quality varies across both mass manufactured and hand made goods quite dramatically.

It's pretty hard to make something like a computer by hand at all, you simply need big expensive machines in which case making a bunch of chips at once is dramatically cheaper and there is no comparable hand made good that has any quality level at all even existing.
Yes, you are right, making one think that it isn't the "hand made" factor which automatically contributes to quality.

As far as the computer goes, at least with circuit boards, I can personally attest to your statement from having seen far less quality from hand made components than from machine made ones. While not every process in the production is hand made, there can be much done by hand. Human error can be removed in that area to give much better quality.
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Old 11th July 2012, 11:44 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by !Kaggen View Post
Tell that to the owners of a Stradivarius violin or a Michelin 3 star chef or a Katana maker.
My neighbor had an addition put on by hand. It was a crappy job. Another neighbor tore down his house and bought a factory made house. It's well-made, gorgeous and cheaper.

BTW: Technically Michelin gives stars to restaurants not chefs.
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Old 11th July 2012, 11:58 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by !Kaggen View Post
Tell that to the owners of a Stradivarius violin or a Michelin 3 star chef or a Katana maker.
Argument from single-point statistic.
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Old 11th July 2012, 12:56 PM   #26
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regarding the starting your own bank idea, might find this interesting :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2012...-dave-fishwick

Quote:
David Buik of City brokers BGC Partners, swiftly dismissed the idea of Bank of Dave obtaining a licence, saying: "You don't have a chance."

Another expert told him that, in the past, "if you went to the right school and had the right parents you might be considered a fit and proper person to go into the banking industry ... there is no evidence you are."

Last edited by sam84; 11th July 2012 at 02:08 PM.
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Old 11th July 2012, 01:13 PM   #27
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Why does so much crackpottery get posted here?

You can't do away with money, people will simply replace it with something else (which then becomes money), because it's so convenient to have a medium of exchange. During the Yugoslav Wars cigarettes were used as the medium of exchange.
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Old 11th July 2012, 01:29 PM   #28
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yt; dw.

Kaggen, please don't just post big long videos. Summarize them for us so we know if we're interested in watching or not. It's easy to skim text at a link to see if it is interesting, but you can't do that with video. It's not time I'm willing to spend for something that, judging by the title of the thread, is probably more crackpot economics.
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Old 11th July 2012, 01:42 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by !Kaggen View Post
Part 1 (snip) Part2 (snip) Part 3 (snip) Part 4
These are not parts of the same video. Part 1 is "Part 1" of a 3 part video titled: "Thomas H. Greco: The End of Money and the Liberation of Exchange", while part 2, 3, 4 are part 2, 3, 4 of a completely different video titled "Tom Greco Daniel Pinchbeck".
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Old 11th July 2012, 04:18 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by !Kaggen View Post
Tell that to the owners of a Stradivarius violin or a Michelin 3 star chef or a Katana maker.
I know I'm totally digging my handcrafted hard drive. Those manually polished mahogany read heads make all the difference. It totally makes my digital audio collection sound so much better.
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Old 11th July 2012, 07:12 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by !Kaggen View Post
Thomas H. Greco talks about the next stage of money - credit clearing.
A way to organize reciprocal exchanges of goods and services which don't cost the earth.
Originally Posted by !Kaggen View Post
Following http://www.reinventingmoney.com/index.html lead me to barternews.com and a blog titled: THE ORIGINAL MEANING OF TRADE MEETS THE FUTURE IN BARTER .

If this is about the same thing then it is pretty much describing a LETS style system.
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Old 11th July 2012, 07:14 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
Hmm.

I am doubtful about the production costs in this scenario, because production of most things is dramatically cheaper and higher quality, if prduction is large-scale to a large (national or global) market area, and the labour force specializes in deep understanding of a specific narrow skill. Money is necessary to evaluate and share the costs and profits between all the numerous people participating in effective and highly specialized large-scale production.

That is why money is not going away soon, or ever.
There is no proposal to do away with money here.
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Old 12th July 2012, 01:20 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Careyp74 View Post
I want to ask about a point in the second video.

When banks make a loan, they are not using deposited money (whether it is the cash handed in at the teller, or the values of the accounts that the people have with the bank) they are creating new money.

If this is so, why can't I just create my own bank, and start loaning out my created money?
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You can. Bank account balances are just IOUs issued by the bank. You can also exchange IOUs with someone else if you want to.
No he can't. He first needs his reserve funds to do the actual lending. I know you know this and this isn't a correction of you, just saying.

...

You can virtually guarantee that anyone that memes "banks create money out of thin air" is not worth 40 mins of youtube.
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Old 12th July 2012, 01:48 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK View Post
No he can't. He first needs his reserve funds to do the actual lending. I know you know this and this isn't a correction of you, just saying.

...

You can virtually guarantee that anyone that memes "banks create money out of thin air" is not worth 40 mins of youtube.
in all of yours and psionl0's discussions on this subject, I assume that you have fully taken into account the shadow banking system which is as big as the conventional system you discuss, but entirely without deposits?

edit, a little reading for in case youre not totally familiar with how it works these days

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/verge-...shadow-banking
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Old 12th July 2012, 02:13 AM   #35
Sceptic-PK
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No, we've never delved into the shadow banking system when discussing fractional lending (the shadow banking system that comprises of 25%-30% of the financial system according to these people: http://www.financialstabilityboard.org/ FYI).
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Old 12th July 2012, 02:16 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK View Post
No, we've never delved into the shadow banking system when discussing fractional lending (the shadow banking system that comprises of 25%-30% of the financial system according to these people: http://www.financialstabilityboard.org/ FYI).
well don't you think you're missing a big part of the picture arguing semantics about the way it supposedly used to all work?

and lol at the oxymoron url
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"The world will soon wake up to the reality that everyone is broke and can collect nothing from the bankrupt, who are owed unlimited amounts by the insolvent, who are attempting to make late payments on a bank holiday in the wrong country, with an unacceptable currency, against defaulted collateral, of which nobody is sure who holds title." - Anonymous
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Old 12th July 2012, 02:55 AM   #37
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What's the shadow banking system got to do with fractional lending and its impacts on deposit expansion?
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Old 12th July 2012, 03:03 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK View Post
What's the shadow banking system got to do with fractional lending ..?
really?

I cant phrase it any better than this, so I'll use theirs.

Quote:
However, unlike traditional banks, shadow banking has one huge deficiency: it has no deposits! In other words, the entire rickety shadow banking system is based simply on the good faith and credit that rehypothecated assets, converted into liabilities, and so on (think repos and reverse repos) courtesy of fractional reserve credit formation (recall rehypothecation), are valid and credible sources of liquidity.
here's a nice easy to follow schematic of how it all works. well maybe not that easy, but i'm sure it's all real kosher wealth, not just a giant ponzi scheme or anything.
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Old 12th July 2012, 03:09 AM   #39
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That's just the kind of dishonest edit I'd expect from you.

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Old 12th July 2012, 03:30 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK View Post
That's just the kind of dishonest edit I'd expect from you.
lol, I dont follow? - genuinely? do you mean editing of your quote?

or from the article?

please explain my dishonest editing more fully so i can either defend myself or apologise and (try ) not to do it again.
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