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Kilaak Kommander · 6th August 2012, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

Didn't the NCAA already state that it is not subject to appeal?

On what grounds are they going to appeal? That other schools that have had extensive child molestation coverup scandals have gotten lighter punishments?

Even if they know an appeal is fruitless, it could still be a good PR decision. The Penn State faithful are bitter that the university submitted to the will of the NCAA. The trustees are throwing a bone to the big donors here.

dudalb · 6th August 2012, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by Kilaak Kommander

Even if they know an appeal is fruitless, it could still be a good PR decision. The Penn State faithful are bitter that the university submitted to the will of the NCAA. The trustees are throwing a bone to the big donors here.

If they are not careful, they might make things worse.
Frankly, you have to wonder if a lot of Politicians in Pennslyvania are not concerned about how bad Penn State and it's apparent inability to get the message about how a massive change of culture is needed is maing the whole state look bad. And in a time when all state budgets are being slashed, Penn State might just be moving to the front of the list of targets....

Quad4_72 · 7th August 2012, 03:28 AM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

Didn't the NCAA already state that it is not subject to appeal?

On what grounds are they going to appeal? That other schools that have had extensive child molestation coverup scandals have gotten lighter punishments?

I believe the board of trustees feels that Rodney Erickson did not have the legal authority to enter into an agreement with the NCAA without the consent of the board. If you ask me, they should just shut up and go back to coloring, because they got off very easy.

halides1 · 7th August 2012, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

Didn't the NCAA already state that it is not subject to appeal?

On what grounds are they going to appeal? That other schools that have had extensive child molestation coverup scandals have gotten lighter punishments?

The judicial system should deal with the question of whether or not there was a coverup, not the NCAA. And the Freeh report would have been better if it had been written after the courts (which have subpoena power) determined whether the individuals in question were guilty or not guilty (both of the above statements are strictly IMO). I posted a link upthread from a lawyer who implied that the NCAA might be challenged on legal grounds.

Spindrift · 7th August 2012, 05:52 AM

Originally Posted by halides1

The judicial system should deal with the question of whether or not there was a coverup, not the NCAA. And the Freeh report would have been better if it had been written after the courts (which have subpoena power) determined whether the individuals in question were guilty or not guilty (both of the above statements are strictly IMO). I posted a link upthread from a lawyer who implied that the NCAA might be challenged on legal grounds.

It's a good thing that Penn State didn't commission the Freeh report. Oh, they did.

At least PSU didn't agree to abide by the NCAA sanctions so they can fight it. Oh wait, they did that too.

halides1 · 7th August 2012, 06:14 AM

Originally Posted by Spindrift

At least PSU didn't agree to abide by the NCAA sanctions so they can fight it. Oh wait, they did that too.

Director of an institute on sports law, Michael McCann wrote at CNN, "The severe penalties are probably appropriate, but I question whether the NCAA overstepped its legal authority in issuing them so hastily...Penn State supporters have reason to insist that the NCAA lacks the jurisdiction to punish its members for off-field, nonplayer related crimes."

Spindrift · 7th August 2012, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by halides1

Director of an institute on sports law, Michael McCann wrote at CNN, "The severe penalties are probably appropriate, but I question whether the NCAA overstepped its legal authority in issuing them so hastily...Penn State supporters have reason to insist that the NCAA lacks the jurisdiction to punish its members for off-field, nonplayer related crimes."

Quote:

"Today, Penn State takes another step forward in changing the culture at the institution as we accept the penalties of the NCAA for the failure of leadership that occurred on our campus," Penn State acting athletic director David Joyner said in the release. "We are deeply disappointed that some of our leaders could have turned a blind eye to such abuse, and agree that the culture at Penn State must change."

Bolding mine.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...ncaa-president

halides1 · 7th August 2012, 06:56 AM

Your story is old news. "Several members of the Penn State University Board of Trustees have filed an appeal with the NCAA over the sanctions handed down in the aftermath of the Jerry Sandusky-sex abuse scandal, and they could ultimately file a federal lawsuit." Link here. Good on them for checking the power grab by the NCAA's president.

dudalb · 7th August 2012, 07:37 AM

What part of "The NCAA is a private organization,and are not bound by the same rules that a court is" does not Halides Understand
ANd what part of "The NCAA charter gives the Presdient of the NCAA the power to act the way he did" does Halides not understand?
For somebody who is acting like Perry Mason, there is a lot that Halides does not understand.

Spindrift · 7th August 2012, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by halides1

Your story is old news. "Several members of the Penn State University Board of Trustees have filed an appeal with the NCAA over the sanctions handed down in the aftermath of the Jerry Sandusky-sex abuse scandal, and they could ultimately file a federal lawsuit." Link here. Good on them for checking the power grab by the NCAA's president.

It may be old news, but it is still what matters, not some grandstanding by trustees.

They may was well file their federal lawsuit, because the NCAA has already said the sanctions cannot be appealed.

ETA: And Penn State agreed that there would be no appeal.

Checkmite · 7th August 2012, 07:47 AM

Not sure who they "filed an appeal" with, since the NCAA has stated there would not be a process for appeal, and individual trustees wouldn't have the standing to appeal on behalf of the university anyway.

Like with Paterno's family, I think "filed an appeal" in the case of the trustees is media-code for "has said they'd really like to appeal".

halides1 · 7th August 2012, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

What part of "The NCAA is a private organization,and are not bound by the same rules that a court is" does not Halides Understand
ANd what part of "The NCAA charter gives the Presdient of the NCAA the power to act the way he did" does Halides not understand?
For somebody who is acting like Perry Mason, there is a lot that Halides does not understand.

I suggest that you read some of the links I provided. Then you will learn what you do not presently understand.

halides1 · 7th August 2012, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Not sure who they "filed an appeal" with, since the NCAA has stated there would not be a process for appeal, and individual trustees wouldn't have the standing to appeal on behalf of the university anyway.

ESPN reported, "Three other trustees joined the appeal, which states that the consent decree university president Rodney Erickson signed with the NCAA agreeing to the sanctions is 'null and void' because Erickson 'lacked the legal authority' to enter into such an agreement without the board's approval." highlighting mine. If I were a member of the BofT at Iowa, I would join with the PSU board.

Spindrift · 7th August 2012, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by halides1

ESPN reported, "Three other trustees joined the appeal, which states that the consent decree university president Rodney Erickson signed with the NCAA agreeing to the sanctions is 'null and void' because Erickson 'lacked the legal authority' to enter into such an agreement without the board's approval." highlighting mine. If I were a member of the BofT at Iowa, I would join with the PSU board.

Guess what? Four trustees of the board can say whatever they want, it doesn't make it so, no matter how much you want it to be.

When and if a court of law agrees when them, then come back.

halides1 · 7th August 2012, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Spindrift

Guess what? Four trustees of the board can say whatever they want, it doesn't make it so, no matter how much you want it to be.

When and if a court of law agrees when them, then come back.

If you had any links or quotations to support your point of view, it might be more convincing. NJ.com reported:
"Some trustees have expressed concern that Erickson violated a board rule that says the board must authorize the signing of 'contracts, legal documents, and other obligations.'"

Checkmite · 7th August 2012, 09:18 AM

Interesting battle to pick. If PSU's consent is revoked then the NCAA will likely cancel their football team entirely for one or more years - the so-called "death penalty", which is what agreeing to these sanctions avoided.

Rather pointless at this stage anyway; more than half of their first string players are cozily settled at other schools now.

Suddenly · 7th August 2012, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Not sure who they "filed an appeal" with, since the NCAA has stated there would not be a process for appeal, and individual trustees wouldn't have the standing to appeal on behalf of the university anyway.

Like with Paterno's family, I think "filed an appeal" in the case of the trustees is media-code for "has said they'd really like to appeal".

They need to file an appeal with the NCAA and have it refused in order to show they exhausted all available NCAA remedies before filing a lawsuit against the NCAA. The NCAA appeal is pretty clearly just a formality.

Spindrift · 7th August 2012, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by halides1

If you had any links or quotations to support your point of view, it might be more convincing. NJ.com reported:
"Some trustees have expressed concern that Erickson violated a board rule that says the board must authorize the signing of 'contracts, legal documents, and other obligations.'"

Cites for what? That Penn State already agreed to the sanctions? I've provided that.

As far as trustees "expressing concern", that doesn't mean anything until they actually do something about it. The NCAA is already on record saying there is no appeal process for the sanctions. The only venue left for those concern expressing trustees is to go to court. When that happens, then the situation might change but I wouldn't bet on it.

dudalb · 7th August 2012, 11:34 AM

Going to court over the NCAA sanctions would be a public relations disaster for Penn State and destroy what little creditbilty they have left except for The Faithful.
It would alienate everybody except the Happy Valley Faithful and the Members of the Paterno Cult and I suspect have severe political repurcussions for the school in Pennslyvania.

Polaris · 7th August 2012, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Going to court over the NCAA sanctions would be a public relations disaster for Penn State and destroy what little creditbilty they have left except for The Faithful.
It would alienate everybody except the Happy Valley Faithful and the Members of the Paterno Cult and I suspect have severe political repurcussions for the school in Pennslyvania.

Please let PSU go to court over the NCAA sanctions! Pretty pretty please with sugar on top!

Quad4_72 · 7th August 2012, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Going to court over the NCAA sanctions would be a public relations disaster for Penn State and destroy what little creditbilty they have left except for The Faithful.
It would alienate everybody except the Happy Valley Faithful and the Members of the Paterno Cult and I suspect have severe political repurcussions for the school in Pennslyvania.

This is a good assumption. The fact that they are even attempting to fight the sanctions shows that they have yet to learn anything from the whole debacle.

RandFan · 7th August 2012, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Going to court over the NCAA sanctions would be a public relations disaster for Penn State and destroy what little creditbilty they have left except for The Faithful.
It would alienate everybody except the Happy Valley Faithful and the Members of the Paterno Cult and I suspect have severe political repurcussions for the school in Pennslyvania.

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

This is a good assumption. The fact that they are even attempting to fight the sanctions shows that they have yet to learn anything from the whole debacle.

Yes, lets not move on. Let's keep the whole seedy mess in the public eye. Dumb, dumb, dumb. In the long run no good can come of it. Cut your loses and move on.

halides1 · 7th August 2012, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by Spindrift

Guess what? Four trustees of the board can say whatever they want, it doesn't make it so, no matter how much you want it to be.

When and if a court of law agrees when them, then come back.

Can you back up your implied assertion that your understanding of either the law or the rules by which PSU operates is better than the Board of Trustees' understanding is? BTW, I would be grateful if you did not make statements about what I do or do not want that are based your misunderstanding of my position. Thanks in advance.

Spindrift · 7th August 2012, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by halides1

Can you back up your implied assertion that your understanding of either the law or the rules by which PSU operates is better than the Board of Trustees' understanding is? BTW, I would be grateful if you did not make statements about what I do or do not want that are based your misunderstanding of my position. Thanks in advance.

The NCAA has publicly stated that there is NO appeal process. Do you dispute that?

If the NCAA is not going to consider an appeal, then the only venue left for the "concerned" trustees is the court. Do you know of anything else they can do?

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your postion. Do you not want what those trustees said to be true?

halides1 · 7th August 2012, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by Spindrift

The NCAA has publicly stated that there is NO appeal process. Do you dispute that?

If the NCAA is not going to consider an appeal, then the only venue left for the "concerned" trustees is the court. Do you know of anything else they can do?

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your postion. Do you not want what those trustees said to be true?

No I don't dispute that, but I think that the trustees have to go to the NCAA first, before going to court, as another commenter here pointed out. IANAL but the trustee's position makes sense to me. If the trustees go to court and lose, and if the consensus of legal opinion is that they should lose, then I am fine with that result. What I think would be a shame is if PSU did not challenge the NCAA on this because of their fear of bad publicity.

RandFan · 7th August 2012, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by halides1

What I think would be a shame is if PSU did not challenge the NCAA on this because of their fear of bad publicity.

Their public image isn't important I'm sure.

tsig · 7th August 2012, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by halides1

No I don't dispute that, but I think that the trustees have to go to the NCAA first, before going to court, as another commenter here pointed out. IANAL but the trustee's position makes sense to me. If the trustees go to court and lose, and if the consensus of legal opinion is that they should lose, then I am fine with that result. What I think would be a shame is if PSU did not challenge the NCAA on this because of their fear of bad publicity.

Why should Penn State trustees worry that they're looking like defenders of a child abuser.

Spindrift · 7th August 2012, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by halides1

No I don't dispute that, but I think that the trustees have to go to the NCAA first, before going to court, as another commenter here pointed out. IANAL but the trustee's position makes sense to me. If the trustees go to court and lose, and if the consensus of legal opinion is that they should lose, then I am fine with that result. What I think would be a shame is if PSU did not challenge the NCAA on this because of their fear of bad publicity.

Yes they will attempt to appeal to the NCAA but unless the NCAA suddenly changes its mind that will be futile.

mikedenk · 7th August 2012, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

Yes, lets not move on. Let's keep the whole seedy mess in the public eye. Dumb, dumb, dumb. In the long run no good can come of it. Cut your loses and move on.

Reading PSU message boards can give some insight into their thinking:

Scout

Rivals

Black Shoe Diaries

Now, I can't say that this is a completely fair assessment of the PSU "culture" as a whole since the boards are football-oriented, but I do think it's fair to say that there is a significant segment of the PSU faithful that are definitely NOT prepared to cut their losses and move on. They are furious about the unfairness of it all and want to fight this thing until the name of JoePa and the university are cleared (read: indefinitely). Page back to around the time the NCAA handed down their sanctions to get the full flavor:

- Louis Freeh is a incompetent liar hired by the PSU BOT to perform a smear job on Paterno.
- The corrupt NCAA should be sued by anybody involved with PSU (Alumni, season ticket holders, former players, Paterno family, etc.) regardless of standing.
- What about all the good things Paterno did? (Hitler built great roads!)
- My personal favorite: "USA should probably be banned from the Olympics since Sandusky was an American"

Their reaction following the release of the Freeh Report could be summed up thusly: "Well thank God we got that CRAP over with, now let's get back to the real business of FOOTBALL! WHOOOOO!" I wasn't sorry at all to see the NCAA lay the smack down after that... and I generally think very poorly of the NCAA.

Kilaak Kommander · 7th August 2012, 09:51 PM

Here's another interesting site:

The Framing of Joe Paterno

They're commissioning a public opinion poll about the Sandusky scandal by "a very reputable pollster" and for every $1000 donated they'll add another question to the poll. They reached their funding goal in less than a day! (Note to self: commission some polls.)

The idea that Paterno was framed seems to be pretty common among the PSU faithful. The only evidence FramingPaterno.com offers is an extensive list of links to blog posts. Who framed Paterno and why is another question altogether. Maybe with further donations they can get to the bottom of this. I suspect Lex Luthor, or maybe Doctor Doom.

halides1 · 8th August 2012, 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by RandFan

Their public image isn't important I'm sure.

RandFan,

Public image is what drove the NCAA to bypass its rules about the appeal process and to act on the Freeh report before the judicial system ruled on the issue of whether or not there was a criminal conspiracy. The sanctions hurt a great many people who had nothing to do with Sandusky's crimes, and that is one of several reasons I have questioned them.

halides1 · 8th August 2012, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Going to court over the NCAA sanctions would be a public relations disaster for Penn State and destroy what little creditbilty they have left except for The Faithful.
It would alienate everybody except the Happy Valley Faithful and the Members of the Paterno Cult and I suspect have severe political repurcussions for the school in Pennslyvania.

There are a number of people who don't fall into either category and yet question some aspect of the sanctions.

Resume · 8th August 2012, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by halides1

There are a number of people who don't fall into either category and yet question some aspect of the sanctions.

Such as?

halides1 · 8th August 2012, 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by Resume

Such as?

Resume,

I provided links to articles by sports journalists and one sports lawyer in various comments upthread. Here is one that I may or may not have linked to before: The Nation's sports columnist Dave Zirin wrote, "He [Emmert] has no right, and every school under the auspices of the NCAA should be terrified that he believes he does." Zirin draws a distinction between the actions of the NCAA's Emmert and the NFL's Goodell.

ANTPogo · 8th August 2012, 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by halides1

Public image is what drove the NCAA to bypass its rules about the appeal process and to act on the Freeh report before the judicial system ruled on the issue of whether or not there was a criminal conspiracy.

The NCAA does not have to wait for the judicial system before they can act (which is why, of course, they pretty much never wait for the judicial system).

Quote:

The sanctions hurt a great many people who had nothing to do with Sandusky's crimes, and that is one of several reasons I have questioned them.

See mikedenk's post above. There are a great many people who may not have actively participated in the coverup, but their attitudes towards Paterno and Penn State football are exactly why those who committed the coverup did what they did.

Skeptical Greg · 8th August 2012, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by halides1

RandFan,

Public image is what drove the NCAA to bypass its rules about the appeal process and to act on the Freeh report before the judicial system ruled on the issue of whether or not there was a criminal conspiracy.

Criminal negligence.

So, business as usual ( for god knows how many years )l, while everyone plays judicial patty-cake.
Send the message that the over-all image of the school is more important than the children entrusted with it's care and well being.

Quote:

The sanctions hurt a great many people who had nothing to do with Sandusky's crimes, and that is one of several reasons I have questioned them.

Collateral damage. It happens.

halides1 · 8th August 2012, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

The NCAA does not have to wait for the judicial system before they can act (which is why, of course, they pretty much never wait for the judicial system).

The NCAA usually acts much more slowly than they did in this case (see upthread). The Freeh report would have been more complete if it had had the benefit of information from the criminal trials that are forthcoming, and the NCAA should have waited for this information, IMO.

Skeptical Greg · 8th August 2012, 06:47 AM

Quote:

The NCAA usually acts much more slowly than they did in this case..

You mean the other cases where 10 years of sexual abuse took place on various campuses ?

ANTPogo · 8th August 2012, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by halides1

The NCAA usually acts much more slowly than they did in this case (see upthread).

They also have never had to deal with a situation like this before. Plus, they almost never have the convenience of the school commissioning its own investigation of itself and publicly presenting the details of the extent of its own wrongdoing.

That kind of simplified matters considerably.

Quote:

The Freeh report would have been more complete if it had had the benefit of information from the criminal trials that are forthcoming, and the NCAA should have waited for this information, IMO.

Why? What would the benefit have been? What could possibly have been learned in the criminal trials that would have impacted the NCAA's decision and the penalty they applied?

Checkmite · 8th August 2012, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

So, business as usual ( for god knows how many years )l, while everyone plays judicial patty-cake.
Send the message that the over-all image of the school is more important than the children entrusted with it's care and well being.

Since that seems to have been Paterno's thoughts on the matter, it is no surprise his supporters feel that way.

All those people talking about what Paterno "taught his players" and what he "gave to the community" - that attitude is what they're talking about. They will likely dress it up as "team spirit" or some such; but "the group is more important than the individual" is what it is.

7th August 2012, 03:28 AM	#523
Quad4_72 AI-EE-YAH! Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: USA Posts: 5,830	Originally Posted by pgwenthold Didn't the NCAA already state that it is not subject to appeal? On what grounds are they going to appeal? That other schools that have had extensive child molestation coverup scandals have gotten lighter punishments? I believe the board of trustees feels that Rodney Erickson did not have the legal authority to enter into an agreement with the NCAA without the consent of the board. If you ask me, they should just shut up and go back to coloring, because they got off very easy.
	__________________ Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken

7th August 2012, 05:46 AM	#524
halides1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 5,595	upthread Originally Posted by pgwenthold Didn't the NCAA already state that it is not subject to appeal? On what grounds are they going to appeal? That other schools that have had extensive child molestation coverup scandals have gotten lighter punishments? The judicial system should deal with the question of whether or not there was a coverup, not the NCAA. And the Freeh report would have been better if it had been written after the courts (which have subpoena power) determined whether the individuals in question were guilty or not guilty (both of the above statements are strictly IMO). I posted a link upthread from a lawyer who implied that the NCAA might be challenged on legal grounds.
halides1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 5,595	__________________ “Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.” – Winston Churchill

7th August 2012, 05:52 AM	#525
Spindrift Enturbulator Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 8,661	Originally Posted by halides1 The judicial system should deal with the question of whether or not there was a coverup, not the NCAA. And the Freeh report would have been better if it had been written after the courts (which have subpoena power) determined whether the individuals in question were guilty or not guilty (both of the above statements are strictly IMO). I posted a link upthread from a lawyer who implied that the NCAA might be challenged on legal grounds. It's a good thing that Penn State didn't commission the Freeh report. Oh, they did. At least PSU didn't agree to abide by the NCAA sanctions so they can fight it. Oh wait, they did that too.
	__________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.

7th August 2012, 06:14 AM	#526
halides1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 5,595	Originally Posted by Spindrift At least PSU didn't agree to abide by the NCAA sanctions so they can fight it. Oh wait, they did that too. Director of an institute on sports law, Michael McCann wrote at CNN, "The severe penalties are probably appropriate, but I question whether the NCAA overstepped its legal authority in issuing them so hastily...Penn State supporters have reason to insist that the NCAA lacks the jurisdiction to punish its members for off-field, nonplayer related crimes."
halides1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 5,595	__________________ “Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.” – Winston Churchill Last edited by halides1; 7th August 2012 at 06:16 AM.

7th August 2012, 06:38 AM	#527
Spindrift Enturbulator Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 8,661	Originally Posted by halides1 Director of an institute on sports law, Michael McCann wrote at CNN, "The severe penalties are probably appropriate, but I question whether the NCAA overstepped its legal authority in issuing them so hastily...Penn State supporters have reason to insist that the NCAA lacks the jurisdiction to punish its members for off-field, nonplayer related crimes." Quote: "Today, Penn State takes another step forward in changing the culture at the institution as we accept the penalties of the NCAA for the failure of leadership that occurred on our campus," Penn State acting athletic director David Joyner said in the release. "We are deeply disappointed that some of our leaders could have turned a blind eye to such abuse, and agree that the culture at Penn State must change." Bolding mine. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...ncaa-president
	__________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.

6th August 2012, 08:00 PM	#521
Kilaak Kommander Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Happy Valley Posts: 317	Originally Posted by pgwenthold Didn't the NCAA already state that it is not subject to appeal? On what grounds are they going to appeal? That other schools that have had extensive child molestation coverup scandals have gotten lighter punishments? Even if they know an appeal is fruitless, it could still be a good PR decision. The Penn State faithful are bitter that the university submitted to the will of the NCAA. The trustees are throwing a bone to the big donors here.

6th August 2012, 10:02 PM	#522
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 23,023	Originally Posted by Kilaak Kommander Even if they know an appeal is fruitless, it could still be a good PR decision. The Penn State faithful are bitter that the university submitted to the will of the NCAA. The trustees are throwing a bone to the big donors here. If they are not careful, they might make things worse. Frankly, you have to wonder if a lot of Politicians in Pennslyvania are not concerned about how bad Penn State and it's apparent inability to get the message about how a massive change of culture is needed is maing the whole state look bad. And in a time when all state budgets are being slashed, Penn State might just be moving to the front of the list of targets....

7th August 2012, 06:56 AM	#528
halides1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 5,595	more recent development Your story is old news. "Several members of the Penn State University Board of Trustees have filed an appeal with the NCAA over the sanctions handed down in the aftermath of the Jerry Sandusky-sex abuse scandal, and they could ultimately file a federal lawsuit." Link here. Good on them for checking the power grab by the NCAA's president.
halides1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 5,595	__________________ “Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.” – Winston Churchill

7th August 2012, 07:37 AM	#529
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 23,023	What part of "The NCAA is a private organization,and are not bound by the same rules that a court is" does not Halides Understand ANd what part of "The NCAA charter gives the Presdient of the NCAA the power to act the way he did" does Halides not understand? For somebody who is acting like Perry Mason, there is a lot that Halides does not understand.

7th August 2012, 07:40 AM	#530
Spindrift Enturbulator Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 8,661	Originally Posted by halides1 Your story is old news. "Several members of the Penn State University Board of Trustees have filed an appeal with the NCAA over the sanctions handed down in the aftermath of the Jerry Sandusky-sex abuse scandal, and they could ultimately file a federal lawsuit." Link here. Good on them for checking the power grab by the NCAA's president. It may be old news, but it is still what matters, not some grandstanding by trustees. They may was well file their federal lawsuit, because the NCAA has already said the sanctions cannot be appealed. ETA: And Penn State agreed that there would be no appeal.
	__________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black. Last edited by Spindrift; 7th August 2012 at 07:50 AM.

7th August 2012, 07:47 AM	#531
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,981	Not sure who they "filed an appeal" with, since the NCAA has stated there would not be a process for appeal, and individual trustees wouldn't have the standing to appeal on behalf of the university anyway. Like with Paterno's family, I think "filed an appeal" in the case of the trustees is media-code for "has said they'd really like to appeal".
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

7th August 2012, 08:34 AM	#532
halides1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 5,595	thought for the day Originally Posted by dudalb What part of "The NCAA is a private organization,and are not bound by the same rules that a court is" does not Halides Understand ANd what part of "The NCAA charter gives the Presdient of the NCAA the power to act the way he did" does Halides not understand? For somebody who is acting like Perry Mason, there is a lot that Halides does not understand. I suggest that you read some of the links I provided. Then you will learn what you do not presently understand.
halides1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 5,595	__________________ “Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.” – Winston Churchill Last edited by halides1; 7th August 2012 at 08:43 AM.

7th August 2012, 08:39 AM	#533
halides1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 5,595	No authority Originally Posted by Checkmite Not sure who they "filed an appeal" with, since the NCAA has stated there would not be a process for appeal, and individual trustees wouldn't have the standing to appeal on behalf of the university anyway. ESPN reported, "Three other trustees joined the appeal, which states that the consent decree university president Rodney Erickson signed with the NCAA agreeing to the sanctions is 'null and void' because Erickson 'lacked the legal authority' to enter into such an agreement without the board's approval." highlighting mine. If I were a member of the BofT at Iowa, I would join with the PSU board.
halides1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 5,595	__________________ “Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.” – Winston Churchill

7th August 2012, 08:41 AM	#534
Spindrift Enturbulator Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 8,661	Originally Posted by halides1 ESPN reported, "Three other trustees joined the appeal, which states that the consent decree university president Rodney Erickson signed with the NCAA agreeing to the sanctions is 'null and void' because Erickson 'lacked the legal authority' to enter into such an agreement without the board's approval." highlighting mine. If I were a member of the BofT at Iowa, I would join with the PSU board. Guess what? Four trustees of the board can say whatever they want, it doesn't make it so, no matter how much you want it to be. When and if a court of law agrees when them, then come back.
	__________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black. Last edited by Spindrift; 7th August 2012 at 08:42 AM.

7th August 2012, 09:06 AM	#535
halides1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 5,595	Got cites? Originally Posted by Spindrift Guess what? Four trustees of the board can say whatever they want, it doesn't make it so, no matter how much you want it to be. When and if a court of law agrees when them, then come back. If you had any links or quotations to support your point of view, it might be more convincing. NJ.com reported: "Some trustees have expressed concern that Erickson violated a board rule that says the board must authorize the signing of 'contracts, legal documents, and other obligations.'"
halides1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 5,595	__________________ “Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.” – Winston Churchill

7th August 2012, 09:18 AM	#536
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,981	Interesting battle to pick. If PSU's consent is revoked then the NCAA will likely cancel their football team entirely for one or more years - the so-called "death penalty", which is what agreeing to these sanctions avoided. Rather pointless at this stage anyway; more than half of their first string players are cozily settled at other schools now.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

7th August 2012, 09:47 AM	#537
Suddenly No Punting Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Montani Semper Liberi Posts: 2,645	Originally Posted by Checkmite Not sure who they "filed an appeal" with, since the NCAA has stated there would not be a process for appeal, and individual trustees wouldn't have the standing to appeal on behalf of the university anyway. Like with Paterno's family, I think "filed an appeal" in the case of the trustees is media-code for "has said they'd really like to appeal". They need to file an appeal with the NCAA and have it refused in order to show they exhausted all available NCAA remedies before filing a lawsuit against the NCAA. The NCAA appeal is pretty clearly just a formality.
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7th August 2012, 10:29 AM	#538
Spindrift Enturbulator Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 8,661	Originally Posted by halides1 If you had any links or quotations to support your point of view, it might be more convincing. NJ.com reported: "Some trustees have expressed concern that Erickson violated a board rule that says the board must authorize the signing of 'contracts, legal documents, and other obligations.'" Cites for what? That Penn State already agreed to the sanctions? I've provided that. As far as trustees "expressing concern", that doesn't mean anything until they actually do something about it. The NCAA is already on record saying there is no appeal process for the sanctions. The only venue left for those concern expressing trustees is to go to court. When that happens, then the situation might change but I wouldn't bet on it.
	__________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.

7th August 2012, 11:34 AM	#539
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 23,023	Going to court over the NCAA sanctions would be a public relations disaster for Penn State and destroy what little creditbilty they have left except for The Faithful. It would alienate everybody except the Happy Valley Faithful and the Members of the Paterno Cult and I suspect have severe political repurcussions for the school in Pennslyvania.
	Last edited by dudalb; 7th August 2012 at 11:38 AM.

7th August 2012, 11:46 AM	#540
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,229	Originally Posted by dudalb Going to court over the NCAA sanctions would be a public relations disaster for Penn State and destroy what little creditbilty they have left except for The Faithful. It would alienate everybody except the Happy Valley Faithful and the Members of the Paterno Cult and I suspect have severe political repurcussions for the school in Pennslyvania. Please let PSU go to court over the NCAA sanctions! Pretty pretty please with sugar on top!
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,229	__________________ "There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Roy Moore of Alabama. The world would absolutely benefit by him being run over by any vehicle." - Lowpro

7th August 2012, 12:05 PM	#541
Quad4_72 AI-EE-YAH! Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: USA Posts: 5,830	Originally Posted by dudalb Going to court over the NCAA sanctions would be a public relations disaster for Penn State and destroy what little creditbilty they have left except for The Faithful. It would alienate everybody except the Happy Valley Faithful and the Members of the Paterno Cult and I suspect have severe political repurcussions for the school in Pennslyvania. This is a good assumption. The fact that they are even attempting to fight the sanctions shows that they have yet to learn anything from the whole debacle.
	__________________ Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken

7th August 2012, 12:50 PM	#542
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,970	Originally Posted by dudalb Going to court over the NCAA sanctions would be a public relations disaster for Penn State and destroy what little creditbilty they have left except for The Faithful. It would alienate everybody except the Happy Valley Faithful and the Members of the Paterno Cult and I suspect have severe political repurcussions for the school in Pennslyvania. Originally Posted by Quad4_72 This is a good assumption. The fact that they are even attempting to fight the sanctions shows that they have yet to learn anything from the whole debacle. Yes, lets not move on. Let's keep the whole seedy mess in the public eye. Dumb, dumb, dumb. In the long run no good can come of it. Cut your loses and move on.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

7th August 2012, 04:52 PM	#543
halides1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 5,595	implication Originally Posted by Spindrift Guess what? Four trustees of the board can say whatever they want, it doesn't make it so, no matter how much you want it to be. When and if a court of law agrees when them, then come back. Can you back up your implied assertion that your understanding of either the law or the rules by which PSU operates is better than the Board of Trustees' understanding is? BTW, I would be grateful if you did not make statements about what I do or do not want that are based your misunderstanding of my position. Thanks in advance.
halides1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 5,595	__________________ “Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.” – Winston Churchill

7th August 2012, 05:10 PM	#544
Spindrift Enturbulator Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 8,661	Originally Posted by halides1 Can you back up your implied assertion that your understanding of either the law or the rules by which PSU operates is better than the Board of Trustees' understanding is? BTW, I would be grateful if you did not make statements about what I do or do not want that are based your misunderstanding of my position. Thanks in advance. The NCAA has publicly stated that there is NO appeal process. Do you dispute that? If the NCAA is not going to consider an appeal, then the only venue left for the "concerned" trustees is the court. Do you know of anything else they can do? I'm sorry if I misunderstood your postion. Do you not want what those trustees said to be true?
	__________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.

7th August 2012, 06:36 PM	#545
halides1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 5,595	Originally Posted by Spindrift The NCAA has publicly stated that there is NO appeal process. Do you dispute that? If the NCAA is not going to consider an appeal, then the only venue left for the "concerned" trustees is the court. Do you know of anything else they can do? I'm sorry if I misunderstood your postion. Do you not want what those trustees said to be true? No I don't dispute that, but I think that the trustees have to go to the NCAA first, before going to court, as another commenter here pointed out. IANAL but the trustee's position makes sense to me. If the trustees go to court and lose, and if the consensus of legal opinion is that they should lose, then I am fine with that result. What I think would be a shame is if PSU did not challenge the NCAA on this because of their fear of bad publicity.
halides1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 5,595	__________________ “Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.” – Winston Churchill

7th August 2012, 06:51 PM	#546
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,970	Originally Posted by halides1 What I think would be a shame is if PSU did not challenge the NCAA on this because of their fear of bad publicity. Their public image isn't important I'm sure.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

7th August 2012, 08:09 PM	#547
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 27,257	Originally Posted by halides1 No I don't dispute that, but I think that the trustees have to go to the NCAA first, before going to court, as another commenter here pointed out. IANAL but the trustee's position makes sense to me. If the trustees go to court and lose, and if the consensus of legal opinion is that they should lose, then I am fine with that result. What I think would be a shame is if PSU did not challenge the NCAA on this because of their fear of bad publicity. Why should Penn State trustees worry that they're looking like defenders of a child abuser.

7th August 2012, 08:11 PM	#548
Spindrift Enturbulator Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 8,661	Originally Posted by halides1 No I don't dispute that, but I think that the trustees have to go to the NCAA first, before going to court, as another commenter here pointed out. IANAL but the trustee's position makes sense to me. If the trustees go to court and lose, and if the consensus of legal opinion is that they should lose, then I am fine with that result. What I think would be a shame is if PSU did not challenge the NCAA on this because of their fear of bad publicity. Yes they will attempt to appeal to the NCAA but unless the NCAA suddenly changes its mind that will be futile.
	__________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.

7th August 2012, 09:34 PM	#549
mikedenk Muse Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Midsouth, USA Posts: 816	Originally Posted by RandFan Yes, lets not move on. Let's keep the whole seedy mess in the public eye. Dumb, dumb, dumb. In the long run no good can come of it. Cut your loses and move on. Reading PSU message boards can give some insight into their thinking: Scout Rivals Black Shoe Diaries Now, I can't say that this is a completely fair assessment of the PSU "culture" as a whole since the boards are football-oriented, but I do think it's fair to say that there is a significant segment of the PSU faithful that are definitely NOT prepared to cut their losses and move on. They are furious about the unfairness of it all and want to fight this thing until the name of JoePa and the university are cleared (read: indefinitely). Page back to around the time the NCAA handed down their sanctions to get the full flavor: - Louis Freeh is a incompetent liar hired by the PSU BOT to perform a smear job on Paterno. - The corrupt NCAA should be sued by anybody involved with PSU (Alumni, season ticket holders, former players, Paterno family, etc.) regardless of standing. - What about all the good things Paterno did? (Hitler built great roads!) - My personal favorite: "USA should probably be banned from the Olympics since Sandusky was an American" Their reaction following the release of the Freeh Report could be summed up thusly: "Well thank God we got that CRAP over with, now let's get back to the real business of FOOTBALL! WHOOOOO!" I wasn't sorry at all to see the NCAA lay the smack down after that... and I generally think very poorly of the NCAA.
	Last edited by mikedenk; 7th August 2012 at 09:35 PM.

7th August 2012, 09:51 PM	#550
Kilaak Kommander Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Happy Valley Posts: 317	Here's another interesting site: The Framing of Joe Paterno They're commissioning a public opinion poll about the Sandusky scandal by "a very reputable pollster" and for every $1000 donated they'll add another question to the poll. They reached their funding goal in less than a day! (Note to self: commission some polls.) The idea that Paterno was framed seems to be pretty common among the PSU faithful. The only evidence FramingPaterno.com offers is an extensive list of links to blog posts. Who framed Paterno and why is another question altogether. Maybe with further donations they can get to the bottom of this. I suspect Lex Luthor, or maybe Doctor Doom.

8th August 2012, 05:24 AM	#551
halides1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 5,595	public image Originally Posted by RandFan Their public image isn't important I'm sure. RandFan, Public image is what drove the NCAA to bypass its rules about the appeal process and to act on the Freeh report before the judicial system ruled on the issue of whether or not there was a criminal conspiracy. The sanctions hurt a great many people who had nothing to do with Sandusky's crimes, and that is one of several reasons I have questioned them.
halides1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 5,595	__________________ “Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.” – Winston Churchill

8th August 2012, 05:28 AM	#552
halides1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 5,595	Happy Valley Faithful Originally Posted by dudalb Going to court over the NCAA sanctions would be a public relations disaster for Penn State and destroy what little creditbilty they have left except for The Faithful. It would alienate everybody except the Happy Valley Faithful and the Members of the Paterno Cult and I suspect have severe political repurcussions for the school in Pennslyvania. There are a number of people who don't fall into either category and yet question some aspect of the sanctions.
halides1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 5,595	__________________ “Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.” – Winston Churchill

8th August 2012, 05:55 AM	#553
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,144	Originally Posted by halides1 There are a number of people who don't fall into either category and yet question some aspect of the sanctions. Such as?
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,144

8th August 2012, 06:30 AM	#554
halides1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 5,595	Dave Zirin's take Originally Posted by Resume Such as? Resume, I provided links to articles by sports journalists and one sports lawyer in various comments upthread. Here is one that I may or may not have linked to before: The Nation's sports columnist Dave Zirin wrote, "He [Emmert] has no right, and every school under the auspices of the NCAA should be terrified that he believes he does." Zirin draws a distinction between the actions of the NCAA's Emmert and the NFL's Goodell.
halides1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 5,595	__________________ “Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.” – Winston Churchill

8th August 2012, 06:35 AM	#555
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,616	Originally Posted by halides1 Public image is what drove the NCAA to bypass its rules about the appeal process and to act on the Freeh report before the judicial system ruled on the issue of whether or not there was a criminal conspiracy. The NCAA does not have to wait for the judicial system before they can act (which is why, of course, they pretty much never wait for the judicial system). Quote: The sanctions hurt a great many people who had nothing to do with Sandusky's crimes, and that is one of several reasons I have questioned them. See mikedenk's post above. There are a great many people who may not have actively participated in the coverup, but their attitudes towards Paterno and Penn State football are exactly why those who committed the coverup did what they did.
	__________________ "A nation can survive with kufr, but not with zulm." - ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib "No more hurting people" - Martin William Richard Currently Reading: Righteous Victims, by Benny Morris