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triadboy · 30th May 2004, 10:53 AM

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...ssion_nun_dc_3

Quote:

The Vatican suspended an earlier bid to beatify Emmerich in 1928 out of concern that Clemens Brentano, the German Romantic poet who wrote down her visions, had embellished her account with his own details.

Wait a minute! There was embellishment going on?!

hgc · 31st May 2004, 06:18 PM

Remember, this pope is manufacturing saints on an very sped-up assembly line, on a very demanding schedule. You can't worry about little things like the wheels not fitting on.

triadboy · 31st May 2004, 08:52 PM

Don't Catholics treat these Saints like minor deities of the Hindu religion?...As manisfestations of the larger god?

ceo_esq · 1st June 2004, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by triadboy
Don't Catholics treat these Saints like minor deities of the Hindu religion?...As manisfestations of the larger god?

I don't think so. From the HarperCollins Encyclopedia of Catholicism (1995):

Quote:

saints, in a strict sense, those officially recognized (canonized) by the Church as persons who have lived a holy life, who now share in the Beatific Vision (i.e., face-to-face experience of the presence of God), and who may be publicly venerated by the faithful. To be sure, there are countless more saints than those who have been formally offered for public veneration. Anyone who may reasonably be believed to have lived a good life and who, therefore, may be presumed to be enjoying eternal life with God can be considered a saint.

...

saints, devotion to, private and public practices that honor or venerate holy men and women. ... At certain junctures in the Church's history, confusion about the relationship between the saints and Christ caused the misconception that Catholics actually worship the saints. Church teaching retains the important distinction: God is worshiped; Mary and the [other] saints are venerated and appropriately honored in private and public devotion.

A_Feeble_Mind · 1st June 2004, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by triadboy
Don't Catholics treat these Saints like minor deities of the Hindu religion?...As manisfestations of the larger god?

Technically, no. But in reality, I know Catholics who say they are going to "pray to" a certain saint for this or that. My mom is still really big into that; she know which saint is good for every possible situation you can think of.

When I was a Catholic, it always bothered me when she said she was going to pray to one of these saints. I always felt it was important to specify that she really intended to ask the saint to intercede for her, instead of giving the impression she was praying to these saints. Now, however, it is obvious that the prayers really are directed toward the saint, with thanks to the saint if the desired outcome is met.

ceo_esq · 1st June 2004, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by A_Feeble_Mind

Technically, no. But in reality, I know Catholics who say they are going to "pray to" a certain saint for this or that. My mom is still really big into that; she know which saint is good for every possible situation you can think of.

When I was a Catholic, it always bothered me when she said she was going to pray to one of these saints. I always felt it was important to specify that she really intended to ask the saint to intercede for her, instead of giving the impression she was praying to these saints. Now, however, it is obvious that the prayers really are directed toward the saint, with thanks to the saint if the desired outcome is met.

Interesting point. Again, from the HarperCollins Encyclopedia of Catholicism article on "saints":

Quote:

Catholics pray only to God; they ask the saints to intercede for them with God. They do not believe that healing, forgiveness, or other blessings come through the power of the saint, but from God through the saint's intercession.

Yet it is obvious from Catholic literature that they often refer to themselves as "praying" to saints. This suggests that two different senses of the word pray are in play here: one referring specifically to communion with God; and another, less theologically strict sense referring to beseeching or entreating saints (in much the same way, I suppose, that pray was formerly to be used in English to mean "to request earnestly" in a general sense - the part of a legal complaint, for example, where one asks the court for relief is still called the "prayer").

30th May 2004, 10:53 AM	#1
triadboy Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 2,556	Pope to Beatify Mel Gibson's 'Passion' Muse http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...ssion_nun_dc_3 Quote: The Vatican suspended an earlier bid to beatify Emmerich in 1928 out of concern that Clemens Brentano, the German Romantic poet who wrote down her visions, had embellished her account with his own details. Wait a minute! There was embellishment going on?!

31st May 2004, 06:18 PM	#2
hgc Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 13,128	Remember, this pope is manufacturing saints on an very sped-up assembly line, on a very demanding schedule. You can't worry about little things like the wheels not fitting on.
	__________________ Bowel-shaking earthquakes of doubt and remorse assail him and wail him with monster truck force. - Cake, The Distance Was there a second singer on the grassy Knowles? - Stephen Colbert

1st June 2004, 06:10 AM	#4
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940	Quote: Originally posted by triadboy Don't Catholics treat these Saints like minor deities of the Hindu religion?...As manisfestations of the larger god? I don't think so. From the HarperCollins Encyclopedia of Catholicism (1995): Quote: saints, in a strict sense, those officially recognized (canonized) by the Church as persons who have lived a holy life, who now share in the Beatific Vision (i.e., face-to-face experience of the presence of God), and who may be publicly venerated by the faithful. To be sure, there are countless more saints than those who have been formally offered for public veneration. Anyone who may reasonably be believed to have lived a good life and who, therefore, may be presumed to be enjoying eternal life with God can be considered a saint. ... saints, devotion to, private and public practices that honor or venerate holy men and women. ... At certain junctures in the Church's history, confusion about the relationship between the saints and Christ caused the misconception that Catholics actually worship the saints. Church teaching retains the important distinction: God is worshiped; Mary and the [other] saints are venerated and appropriately honored in private and public devotion.
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940

1st June 2004, 06:29 AM	#5
A_Feeble_Mind Thinker Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 218	Quote: Originally posted by triadboy Don't Catholics treat these Saints like minor deities of the Hindu religion?...As manisfestations of the larger god? Technically, no. But in reality, I know Catholics who say they are going to "pray to" a certain saint for this or that. My mom is still really big into that; she know which saint is good for every possible situation you can think of. When I was a Catholic, it always bothered me when she said she was going to pray to one of these saints. I always felt it was important to specify that she really intended to ask the saint to intercede for her, instead of giving the impression she was praying to these saints. Now, however, it is obvious that the prayers really are directed toward the saint, with thanks to the saint if the desired outcome is met.
A_Feeble_Mind Thinker Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 218	__________________ "(your) mind is a terrible thing..." -UNCF "The Bible is not true..." - LCBOY "God is...(nothing)" - LightPiercingDarkness Why it is important to question what you read.

1st June 2004, 08:11 AM	#6
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940	Quote: Originally posted by A_Feeble_Mind Technically, no. But in reality, I know Catholics who say they are going to "pray to" a certain saint for this or that. My mom is still really big into that; she know which saint is good for every possible situation you can think of. When I was a Catholic, it always bothered me when she said she was going to pray to one of these saints. I always felt it was important to specify that she really intended to ask the saint to intercede for her, instead of giving the impression she was praying to these saints. Now, however, it is obvious that the prayers really are directed toward the saint, with thanks to the saint if the desired outcome is met. Interesting point. Again, from the HarperCollins Encyclopedia of Catholicism article on "saints": Quote: Catholics pray only to God; they ask the saints to intercede for them with God. They do not believe that healing, forgiveness, or other blessings come through the power of the saint, but from God through the saint's intercession. Yet it is obvious from Catholic literature that they often refer to themselves as "praying" to saints. This suggests that two different senses of the word pray are in play here: one referring specifically to communion with God; and another, less theologically strict sense referring to beseeching or entreating saints (in much the same way, I suppose, that pray was formerly to be used in English to mean "to request earnestly" in a general sense - the part of a legal complaint, for example, where one asks the court for relief is still called the "prayer").
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940

31st May 2004, 08:52 PM	#3
triadboy Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 2,556	Don't Catholics treat these Saints like minor deities of the Hindu religion?...As manisfestations of the larger god?