Quis Custodiet Quacki

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Have a look at this thread;

http://homeopathyforums.hpathy.com//...s.asp?TID=1528

We have various big claims from the woos saying how their regulation is just the same as for real doctors including reference to legislation controlling them in the US and the societies to which they can belong in the UK.

The UK groups really are no more than clubs, but can anyone give a brief summary of the limits of their statutory recognition in the UK and the USA? What limits are placed on people wishing to call themselves 'homeopath'? What limits are placed on anyone just wanting to put up a brass plate and hand out homeopathic remedies in our respective jurisdictions?

[Rolfe]

Quote:

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
The UK groups really are no more than clubs, but can anyone give a brief summary of the limits of their statutory recognition in the UK and the USA? What limits are placed on people wishing to call themselves 'homeopath'? What limits are placed on anyone just wanting to put up a brass plate and hand out homeopathic remedies in our respective jurisdictions?

I note Naturalhealth's typical obfuscatory reply.

Quote:

In England, practicing homeopaths are registered with either the Society, the HMA or the ARH. If a patient suffers as a result of treatment or they wish to make a complaint about a homeopath, then the patients recourse is to the registering body that the
homeopath is registered with.

Forgot about the Faculty, didn't she, in spite of all that lying guff about being an MFHom!

Of course, as you said yourself, there's no requirement to be in any of these clubs in order to practise. And I don't suppose any of the "patients" knows any better. Of course, if you or I got struck off, that would be that. No can touch patient.

You know, I do with Bach would just dry up and blow away. His mind-blowing and closed-minded illogic, combined with an overweening conceit of himself, simply clutters up all of their threads and negates any points anyone else might possibly be making. Remember him saying he felt we should acknowledge he made some good points? While he was running that brain-dead stuff about the placebo-controlled trial not being the right tool to measure homoeopathy, like measuring time with a ruler! He has said several times that he will never even entertain the hypothesis that homoeopathy doesn't work, and frankly I don't know what they gave him instead of a brain, but I think the needle got stuck.

But what about that other thread you showed me? The cat who needs to see a real vet. How come "Wim" can claim to be a

Quote:

qualified classical+clinical homeopath for people+animals

?

Don't they have a Veterinary Surgeons Act in Holland? At least in this country (and I gather in the US) animals are better protected than humans because non-vets are prohibited from diagnosing ot treating animals. Doesn't completely protect from the charlatans, and not at all from our delusional/fraudulent colleagues, but at least it's something.

I can't tell what that cat has without seeing it, or hearing a description of the case from someone who knows what they're talking about (which is how I usually work), and I'm sure you can't either, but does that faze Wim? Course not, trust me, I have magic water!

Rolfe.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Look, NH popped up again to say;

"Also, registering bodies are not clubs at all. They
are full registering bodies for the profession and
require the payment of a registration fee. They also
provide indemnity insurance."


Sounds like a club to me, just like the AA (AAA in US)- you can join by paying a fee, they can provide you with insurance to pay if you damage someone with your car and equivalently with the homeopaths' clubs they can do nothing to take your driving licence away and keep you off the road.

[Rolfe]

I see they've locked the thread "by popular demand". Typical homoeopaths - this discussion is touching uncomfortable nerves, please stop it.

Rolfe.

[Prester John]

What NH is not acknowleding is that you do NOT have to be a member of the club as a prerequisite for trading as a homeopath. Unlike the health proffessions where you do have to be registered in order to practice.

Part of the problem with the upcoming regulation of acupuncture and herbalists is that all it is doing is protecting titles. You can still be an unregistered acupuncturist/herbalist, you just can't use some specific titles to describe yourself. All this will add is a veneer of respectability. Its important to note that this registration is for public health protection and in no way addresses efficacy, although i can't see the general public understanding this, or the registering body being particuarly fortcoming on this point.

[Prester John]

and just a reminder, the consulation for acupuncture/herbalists statutory regualtion (NB no homeopaths, NH see the word Statutory, look it up) ends on 7th June.

The questionaire is here: (pdf)

http://www.dh.gov.uk/assetRoot/04/07/48/16/04074816.pdf


For UK citizens only. I have an answer sheet that i can email if you want to send a caustic response to send without reading through it all. PM me.

PJ

[Soapy Sam]

BSM- (Very) dim and distant recall suggests the word you want is "circulator" . Don't ask me what the accusative plural is though. ("circulatores"?)

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Quote:

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
BSM- (Very) dim and distant recall suggests the word you want is "circulator" . Don't ask me what the accusative plural is though. ("circulatores"?)

Sorry Soapy, you've lost me. Please expand a little on your post.

[Soapy Sam]

"circulator" (I believe) was Latin for "quack" in the medical sense, as in your phrase "Quis custodiet Quacki".

Sorry for the confusion. I'm packing for a trip to Wales, reading two books, browsing the forum and dithering simultaneously. I'm rarely cryptic, except by accident.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Quote:

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
"circulator" (I believe) was Latin for "quack" in the medical sense

Very appropriate for persons who make a living by agitating and distributing water.

[Soapy Sam]

I just dug out the olde skoole Latinne Dikshunary, (which has a sticker on the front saying "Basil Brush for P.M." ) , blew off the dust and dead beetles and found that "circulator" does indeed mean a quack doctor and also a pedlar.*

So there we have it. Conclusive proof that my skool was just as good as Rolfe's, the Scottish Educashon system rains supreme and all's rite with the wold.

*Pity it's not "paddler", but we can't have everything.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Quote:

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
I just dug out the olde skoole Latinne Dikshunary, (which has a sticker on the front saying "Basil Brush for P.M." ) , blew off the dust and dead beetles and found that "circulator" does indeed mean a quack doctor and also a pedlar.*

So there we have it. Conclusive proof that my skool was just as good as Rolfe's, the Scottish Educashon system rains supreme and all's rite with the wold.

*Pity it's not "paddler", but we can't have everything.

Wizzerd!

[Homeoskeptic]

Well, at least our water works!!

O, Monkey. Come back to your own and more basic environment to swing around in the trees, ha,ha

It is a real shame that all your threads have been closed and that nobody seems remotely interested in replying to them. I wonder why? Perhaps because you should ask a sensible question in the first place and then you may start to get sensible replies.

Too much like hard work with the big boys huh?!!!!!

If you want to play with the big boys you need to start acting like one too!!

Perhaps that is impossible for you though isn't it!!

O, well, just have a nice sheltered and blinkered life swinging through the trees with all your little monkey friends and do drop in again when you feel like a grown up discussion for once.

O, by the way, thanks for the great laugh that you have given us over at Hpathy. We have all been greatly amused by your idiotic comments. Full marks to Bach - he really had you tied up in knots by the end with his eloquent posting.

[Rolfe]

Still claiming to be "an MFHom and proud of it", Naturalhealth? Or has that one gone the same way as the wife dabbling in dangerous nonsense and the degree in Modern Languages?

Rolfe.

[Pantastic]

Jeez, I must say BSM you've got a lot more patience than me. Just reading that thread made me crazy.
They just evade and evade until they're backed so far into a corner out comes the padlock and the thread is terminated.
Kudos for trying to get straight answers out of them, no surprise they all ran away.

[Rolfe]

Yes, but just look at Homeoskeptic/Naturalhealth's bumptious comments here. Complete failure to address any of the serious points, doesn't even try to cover up her obvious lie about the MFHom, reappraises Bach's nonsensical drivel as "eloquent posting", and simply carries on in her own little world where "it works" (by defining any possible outcome as "worked") as if she hadn't been stripped naked and forensically shredded.

Still no sign of her going for the million, even though she says she's certain that it's possible to tell potentised water from non-potentised water by analysis.

Do you think there's some special requirement in the homoeopathy intake screening for "congenital liar"?

Rolfe.

[Anders]

Quote:

Originally posted by Homeoskeptic
Well, at least our water works!!

Now, wasn't it alcohol? Or sugar? Well, any way, prove it!

Oh BTW, in my home country, Sweden that is, all healthcare personal would swiftly be relived of their license if they were caught practicing homeopathy, and that applies to doctors as well as to nurses. So by law, doctors can’t practice homeopathy.

[edit to add:]
And, yes your water as well as mine, works perfectly, as a thirst quencher. When will you understand that water is water and we know a lot about it? Water can’t store anything, not information in the amount H’paths claim that it do. NMR studies that can’t be reproduced isn’t enough. I don’t know what you know about water. Water is a small molecule, two hydrogen atoms connected to an oxygen atom by mostly covalent bindings but there is some ionic binding as well(as in all molecules), and the arc is a bit less than 180 degrees. In liquids water the molecules sometimes form a ring or chain of in average 4(four) molecules. These rings are short lived though. In ice though, one slab of ice is one single molecule. Water has one triple point, and a very rare backwards leaning pressure/temperature curve in the state-diagram.

Please, please tell me how you fit memory in to water!!

[Soapy Sam]

Please, please tell me how you fit memory in to water!!

Anders- Freeze it, then write on the ice.

[Anders]

Quote:

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
Please, please tell me how you fit memory in to water!!

Anders- Freeze it, then write on the ice.

Yes, finally, the enigma of h'pathy is solved!

[Pantastic]

Quote:

Originally posted by Rolfe
Yes, but just look at Homeoskeptic/Naturalhealth's bumptious comments here. Complete failure to address any of the serious points, doesn't even try to cover up her obvious lie about the MFHom, reappraises Bach's nonsensical drivel as "eloquent posting", and simply carries on in her own little world where "it works" (by defining any possible outcome as "worked") as if she hadn't been stripped naked and forensically shredded.

Still no sign of her going for the million, even though she says she's certain that it's possible to tell potentised water from non-potentised water by analysis.

Do you think there's some special requirement in the homoeopathy intake screening for "congenital liar"?

Rolfe.

No, but they are all delusional. The definition of a delusion, is a belief that is:

1) False
2) Held with complete conviction
3) Not altered by reason, experience or evidence to the contrary

Fits homeopathy quite well, methinks.

[Eos of the Eons]

Quote:

Originally posted by Anders

Yes, finally, the enigma of h'pathy is solved!

Erm, but it melts! All that memory lost. Pity.

I just can't get the ice to carry the message to wherever it needs to go in my body. Heck, where is this memory utilized in the body supposedly anyways? I seem to have misplaced my homeopath water memory deciphering whachamathingys for my blood and tissues to utilize. Hmm, maybe some enzyme type system hey?

***mind wanders off into more homeopath type reality***

Oh yeah, it's not for blood and tissues, it's for my 'energy' right? Aw heck, my energy intertwingles with the the 'water memory' eh? It's funny how they can communicate. So magical! Why do I have to drink the water then? I guess some sites on the net understand that you don't. ***scratches head*** Hmmm, must should just need to sprinkle it on oneself...unless you can only access your energy orally?

I'm so confuseded!!

[Soapy Sam]

"Erm, but it melts! All that memory lost. Pity. "

Eos- Remember Josephson Junctions? You have to keep it cool! The fact it melts and can be refrozen makes it erasable flash memory. We can charge extra for that.

D'uh! Sceptics! Constantly letting stupid facts stand in the way of business opportunities.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Quote:

Originally posted by Anders

Now, wasn't it alcohol? Or sugar? Well, any way, prove it!

Oh BTW, in my home country, Sweden that is, all healthcare personal would swiftly be relived of their license if they were caught practicing homeopathy, and that applies to doctors as well as to nurses. So by law, doctors can’t practice homeopathy.

This raises one of the issues I want to explore further. Do you know how they define homeopathy in a legally strict way so that they manage to ban professionals from exercising their (defective) judgement and choosing to use magic water?

[Rolfe]

Quote:

Originally posted by Pantastic
No, but they are all delusional. The definition of a delusion, is a belief that is:

1) False
2) Held with complete conviction
3) Not altered by reason, experience or evidence to the contrary

Fits homeopathy quite well, methinks.

Mmmmm, so Naturalhealth is sincerely deluded that she is a qualified doctor and a Member of the Faculty of Homoeopaths?

I know BSM has more strident views on this one than I have, but the more you engage these people, and the more you press them on the blatant inconsistencies, the more you have to wonder. In particular, debating with colleagues who have what was described in today's Vet Times as "the single best biomedical degree", and who nevertheless witter on about energy medicine and like curing like, it usually isn't long before at least the suspicion begins to dawn that nobody can be quite that mad, and he's making a very nice living at it.

I'm sure there are specimens of both types, but especially in the professional arena, I spy an eye for the fast buck. Without any of the overheads the rest of us have to pay for.

Though I have to say I was really talking more about the specific, obvious lies like the one about the MFHom. It's been obvious since the first day Naturalhealth came here that she was just typing whatever suited her case with no regard at all for whether or not it was true (homoeopathy can cure chronic renal failure, for a start). That and the persistent ignoring and evasion of obvious points (like the fact that getting chucked out of any of the homoeopaths clubs is no barrier to going on practising) really does come over as dishonest. Xanta is just the same, happily repeating the same lies again and again even after it's been pointed out to her repeatedly that what she is saying isn't true.

With attitudes like that, how deeply do they really believe the basic tenets as well? Who knows?

Rolfe.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Quote:

Originally posted by Homeoskeptic
Well, at least our water works!!

O, Monkey. Come back to your own and more basic environment to swing around in the trees, ha,ha

It is a real shame that all your threads have been closed and that nobody seems remotely interested in replying to them. I wonder why? Perhaps because you should ask a sensible question in the first place and then you may start to get sensible replies.

Too much like hard work with the big boys huh?!!!!!

If you want to play with the big boys you need to start acting like one too!!

Perhaps that is impossible for you though isn't it!!

O, well, just have a nice sheltered and blinkered life swinging through the trees with all your little monkey friends and do drop in again when you feel like a grown up discussion for once.

O, by the way, thanks for the great laugh that you have given us over at Hpathy. We have all been greatly amused by your idiotic comments. Full marks to Bach - he really had you tied up in knots by the end with his eloquent posting.

Since you've decide to show up here, perhaps you can explain how ejection by th Faculty of Homeopathy would remove your ability to practise. complain successfully about me to the RCVS and it becomes illegal for me to diagnose or treat animals, ditto doctors and the GMC. That's the difference between a statutory authority and a club. You are a member of a club (or at least you claim to be).

Does the GMC still any have power over you (since you did claim to be a doctor)?

Yes I did notice that JanZy arrogated to herself last word on my thread and then locked it. Very good debating tactic. You'll notice that threads don't get locked here just because the residents don't like you.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

NH

Did you also notice how Bach (who is he kidding) avoided the issue of who regulates him? He is not a homeopath, but prescribes homeopathic remedies. He is some kind of psychotherapist, but not a doctor, who has a limited right to prescribe real drugs. So, the honest answer that he was afraid to give is that no one has any hold over him prescribing magic water whatever damage he might cause and in the good old US of A he just says, "So, sue me".

Would you like to play 'Let's Spot Who Failed to Get Into Med School'?

Should we give our health into the hands of someone whose only higher education is a degres in literature and semiotics? (For people who have been following this there is a small prize for identifying the Woo that fits this description)

[geni]

The ezine is "interesting" this mounth. Firstly in the poll they are coming right out and claiming to be able to cure cancer.

For another article they use mothering magzine as the only source of information http://www.hpathy.com/health/soy.asp . Not even a quick google search to add to it.

They then have a load of stuff on the The Peregrine Falcon which takes sympathic magic to new extreams

http://www.hpathy.com/materia_medica...ine_Falcon.asp

Their mircal cure breaks seveal rules of clasical homeopathy

http://www.hpathy.com/cures/baby_fever.asp

They have a shot at answering one of kumars questions

http://www.hpathy.com/askb/latestq.asp?Id=310

There is a rare mention of hannemann favoring magnetic thearpy

http://www.hpathy.com/philosophy/org..._medicine1.asp

The attack on real medcine come in the interview

http://www.hpathy.com/interviews/joelillard.asp

There ignorce of basic desease processes is frightening.

eddited to fix link

[Rolfe]

Quote:

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
complain successfully about me to the RCVS and it becomes illegal for me to diagnose or treat animals, ditto doctors and the GMC.

Not true, actually. It would stop the struck-off delinquent from claiming to be a doctor, but she could still go on practising as a lay homoeopath or any other sort of woo-woo she favours.

Hey, might this explain our Naturalhealth? Nah, I don't see any sign of a medical education there, even a struck-off one. Didn't even rate the Faculty a mention when going through the various clubs, either. So proud of being a member, doncha know?

I thought the denizens were quite willing to post to your threads at H'pathy, BSM (I'm not sure I would dignify the content as "debating"), until JanZy decided it was all too embarrassing and locked them. Interesting how Naturalhealth now cites the lack of activity on the locked threads as evidence that nobody is interested in you (I'm getting used to this sort of "logic" from homoeopaths, it's like reading Alice), but has to come here to carry on the conversation without moderatorial censorship.

Face it, Naturalheath, you can do what you like to anyone stupid enough to let you (and pay you for it), and nobody can lift a finger to stop you.

Some accountability.

Rolfe.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Quote:

Originally posted by Rolfe
Not true, actually. It would stop the struck-off delinquent from claiming to be a doctor, but she could still go on practising as a lay homoeopath or any other sort of woo-woo she favours

Now, now Rolfe. [Gets on high horse in a homeopath stylee]Can't you comprehend anything you read? I meant that a doctor might get struck off by the GMC. I did not exclude the possibility that struck-off 'Dr'-NH could keep passing out magically-enhanced Evian[/dismounts high horse]

[Rolfe]

Quote:

Originally posted by geni
They have a shot at answering one of kumars questions

http://www.hpathy.com/cures/baby_fever.asp

Geni, you've repeated the baby cure link here, can you give the one you really had in mind?

I loved Sigi's analysis of the Peregrine Falcon proving - it's been my favourite example of how the master prover cherry-picks the bits of the proving diaries that match the essential nature of the remedy. And he's only just noticed?

Rolfe.

[geni]

Quote:

Originally posted by Rolfe
Geni, you've repeated the baby cure link here, can you give the one you really had in mind?

Fixed

[Rolfe]

Quote:

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Now, now Rolfe. [Gets on high horse in a homeopath stylee]Can't you comprehend anything you read? I meant that a doctor might get struck off by the GMC. I did not exclude the possibility that struck-off 'Dr'-NH could keep passing out magically-enhanced Evian[/dismounts high horse]

Well, word your points better! You do have to be a vet to diagnose or treat an animal. You don't have to be a doctor to diagnose or treat a human.

So even if Naturalhealth is/was a doctor (which I don't believe for a microsecond), getting struck off by the GMC and chucked out of the Faculty wouldn't necessarily crimp her style for longer than it took to get a different brass plate made up.

Anyway, they don't shell out for Evian, with or without antifreeze, they use nuclear water/spring water/tap water/distilled water/the purest water there is/a water-alcohol mixture/whatever pops into their head when you ask the question. You know, I'd really like to know what this magic solvent that holds this magic memory actually is, but nobody will tell me!

Rolfe.

[Anders]

Quote:

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey


This raises one of the issues I want to explore further. Do you know how they define homeopathy in a legally strict way so that they manage to ban professionals from exercising their (defective) judgement and choosing to use magic water?

H'path is treated as any treament that has no evidence in neither science nor proved expierence. H'path falls in the same catagory as all quacks, like reflexology, magnetic treatment, and the lot. They are not treated differently. The National Health Board decides what is quackary and whats not, and so far the only alternative treatment that has been granted not beeing a quackary is accupuncture, no more. And the rules apply to all medical personal, doctors, nurses, assistents, etc.

In Sweden h'pathy is not very popular, probably because good and real medical treatment is very good an cheap.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Quote:

Originally posted by Anders
The National Health Board decides what is quackary and whats not

We have no equivalent to this. The National Institute of Clinical Excellence seems to have a rather haphazard remit to decide to look at the quality of medical treatments and recommend whether they should be paid for by the NHS, but I think it is piecemeal. As far as I know there is no over-arching authority to say what is and is not medicine.

[Rolfe]

And I still think the Swedish lot have made a mistake with acupuncture. Having listened to Andrew Moore going on about it in no uncertain terms at a meeting of the Association of Clinical Biochemists, of all places. "It doesn't work, and it can kill you, but if you want to pay for it fine. Just don't expect me to subsidise you."

Still, one slipped through the net and the rest blocked is a fine record overall.

Rolfe.

[Anders]

Quote:

Originally posted by Rolfe
And I still think the Swedish lot have made a mistake with acupuncture. Having listened to Andrew Moore going on about it in no uncertain terms at a meeting of the Association of Clinical Biochemists, of all places. "It doesn't work, and it can kill you, but if you want to pay for it fine. Just don't expect me to subsidise you."

Still, one slipped through the net and the rest blocked is a fine record overall.

Rolfe.

I definitely agree about acupuncture. There are very few indications that it actually works and as you know there is a falling effect when the quality of the studies increases. Basically acupuncture is no more than an occult theory which is a bit hard to fit in to the knowledge we have about the biochemistry in our human bodies.

[Rolfe]

Isn't it pathetic the way Naturalhealth comes along, shouts "nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah", sticks her tongue out, sticks her fingers in her ears, and then vanishes again?

Come on, tell us how anyone can stop you from practising should you manage to kill someone with that oh-so-powerful magic water of yours!

Rolfe.

[Anders]

About NH:

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Rolfe

Do you know what regulates the upstart universities and their novelty degrees?

http://homeopathyforums.hpathy.com/f...s.asp?TID=1517


Universty of Central Lancashire/Lancaster(?) is hardly Oxbridge, but my tax money is payng for this rubbish.

[geni]

Quote:

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Rolfe

Do you know what regulates the upstart universities and their novelty degrees?

http://homeopathyforums.hpathy.com/f...s.asp?TID=1517


Universty of Central Lancashire/Lancaster(?) is hardly Oxbridge, but my tax money is payng for this rubbish.

you are also paying for the university of westminster

http://search.ucas.co.uk/cgi-bin/hsr...28&button1.y=5

However there are still only 3 courses nationwide. There are 12 for hairdressing

http://search.ucas.co.uk/cgi-bin/hsr...d=HAIRDRESSING