[Ed] Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB) - Page 3

16.5 · 23rd August 2012, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by Acleron

I don't think we have to worry too much about FTB.

Richard Carrier

Intellectual artillery?

"In the meantime, I call everyone now to pick sides (not in comments here, but publicly, via Facebook or other social media): are you with us, or with them; are you now a part of the Atheism+ movement, or are you going to stick with Atheism Less?

Then at least we’ll know who to work with. And who to avoid."

Sounds like a Beer Hall in Munich.

By the way, nice of Mr. Carrier to co-opt Jen's idea, with a false dichotomy no less.

Typical male.

Shun me Mr. Carrier, because I am with you AND with them.

Mister Agenda · 23rd August 2012, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by Merton

Yeah, I kind of figured that (hence the question mark). 'Twas just a thought I had.

Exactly. I'd say people have a duty to correct their misunderstanding, but the group could easily pick a new name that avoids this confusion altogether, especially since it is in its formative phase.

My experience is that groups in their formative phase are unwilling to reconsider their name because the project is somebody's or a few people's baby and they are attached to the name they've already decided on. Which is a shame, because names are important and input from people not in the in-group can be valuable. If the National Atheist Party had called itself something like the Secular Progressive Party it would probably have been able to get many more atheists (and theists) to support it than have done so. There were voices right at the beginning saying things like 'hey, this is identity politics'; and 'hey, you say you welcome theists, but you chose a name that automatically excludes them'.

Dinwar · 23rd August 2012, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by Mister Agenda

Which is a shame, because names are important and input from people not in the in-group can be valuable.

Well, apparently Atheism+ doesn't see it that way. They're already talking uniforms for members, and actively shunning anyone who disagrees with them after minor offenses. Even Ayn Rand accepted people who made what she considered repeated and significant errors, and the Inquisition gave you every opportunity to confess and be absolved while they tortured you (that they'd still kill you was a quirk of their philosophy).

It really is disturbing that a bunch of adults can think this way.

squealpiggy · 23rd August 2012, 07:55 AM

Hey people! IT'S TIME TO PICK SIDES.

OK. Picked.

Dinwar · 23rd August 2012, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by squealpiggy

Hey people! IT'S TIME TO PICK SIDES.

OK. Picked.

I have a standard response to "You're either with me or against me": I choose "against". Anyone who has so little respect for me as to make such an asinine statement isn't someone I want to associate with.

Originally Posted by Carrier

1. We believe in being reasonable. This means, first, that we believe in being logical and rational in forming beliefs and opinions. Which means anyone who makes a fallacious argument and, when shown that they have, does not admit it, is not one of us, and is to be marginalized and kicked out, as not part of our movement, and not anyone we any longer wish to deal with.

In Skyrim there's a religious organization that goes around attacking anyone who has Daedric artifacts. They serve, ironically, the god of mercy in the game--their logic being that the most merciful thing they can do to someone who's fallen so low as to consort with Daedra is to turn them into a ragged pile of amorphous meat. This quote could have come directly from them.

westprog · 23rd August 2012, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by RockNroll

Not even that: I've met atheists who claims that religion has benefits as regards social cohesion, morality, etc., and therefore it should be promoted by the state.
An incredibly misguided view in my opinion, but there are indeed atheists who hold it.

Also, I've met plenty of theists who are secularists. The smart/non-totalitarian ones tend to recognize the fact that the separation of religion and state is beneficial to everyone, whether they be theists or atheists.

It's a fascinating little social experiment. Get a bunch of people together who agree about one thing. Then you find that some of them are acting badly. Rather than institute a few simple rules of behaviour, do an analysis of the problem and decide that the issue isn't behaviour, it's ideological stance. Start a new sub-group with a set of values that aren't up for debate or even precise examination, and subject anyone querying it to the kind of abuse that characterised the problem in the first place. It's like a mini-version of the Cultural Revolution.

"So you're against tolerance and civility? Get lost, douchebag!"

16.5 · 23rd August 2012, 08:44 AM

By the way, the intellectual howitzer of the Atheism Plusalittlebitofthoughtcontrol, the pop gun of Plus, the A-Bomb of the atheists, the Daisy Cuuter to the deists, Rich Carrier opens up with this charming turn of phrase:

"There is a new atheism brewing, and it’s the rift we need, to cut free the dead weight so we can kick the C.H.U.D.’s back into the sewers and finally disown them, once and for all."

Is C.H.U.D. an acronym that the cool kids at FtB use or is really a reference to that 80's movie C.H.U.D Canibalistic Humanoid Underground Dweller?

I either case, it is ridiculously juvenile.

RebeccaBradley · 23rd August 2012, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by 16.5

Is C.H.U.D. an acronym that the cool kids at FtB use or is really a reference to that 80's movie C.H.U.D Canibalistic Humanoid Underground Dweller?

I either case, it is ridiculously juvenile.

Oh, so that's what it means. One of the commenters asked Richard that, and he said something like Cannibalistic Mutant Sewer Dweller, which I noticed did not add up to CHUD. More like CMSD. Thanks for the illumination!

zeggman · 23rd August 2012, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley

Oh, so that's what it means. One of the commenters asked Richard that, and he said something like Cannibalistic Mutant Sewer Dweller, which I noticed did not add up to CHUD. More like CMSD. Thanks for the illumination!

I recognized the acronym from that movie I've never seen, but I was sure the A+sters had assigned it to some hip new set of insulting terms.

How disappointing.

Dinwar · 23rd August 2012, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by zeggman

I recognized the acronym from that movie I've never seen, but I was sure the A+sters had assigned it to some hip new set of insulting terms.

How disappointing.

I say, as soon as we see A+ pins the rest of us start wearing CHUD pins. I mean, in the USA how many of our national symbols started as insults?

KoihimeNakamura · 23rd August 2012, 09:05 AM

Guys,I'm starting Skeptics*, so we can always take precedence in operations.

Merton · 23rd August 2012, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura

Guys,I'm starting Skeptics*, so we can always take precedence in operations.

And everyone knows that splats (*) are more inclusive than pluses (+) anyway.

[/REGEX JOKE]

zeggman · 23rd August 2012, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Dinwar

I say, as soon as we see A+ pins the rest of us start wearing CHUD pins. I mean, in the USA how many of our national symbols started as insults?

Well, if I'm going to wear one, it's going to stand for Cool Humanist Upsetting Douchebags. I've never eaten a human in my life.

16.5 · 23rd August 2012, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura

Guys,I'm starting Skeptics*, so we can always take precedence in operations.

I'm goint to start Aaathiesm Plus so I'm first in the freaking yellow pages.

El_Spectre · 23rd August 2012, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by squealpiggy

Hey people! IT'S TIME TO PICK SIDES.

OK. Picked.

Splitter!

RebeccaBradley · 23rd August 2012, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by Dinwar

I say, as soon as we see A+ pins the rest of us start wearing CHUD pins. I mean, in the USA how many of our national symbols started as insults?

I love it! How about some fake Surlyramic CHUD necklaces....?

16.5 · 23rd August 2012, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley

I love it! How about some fake Surlyramic CHUD necklaces....?

Should be pretty simple, just a dab of paint or two to transform this:

CHO

Myriad · 23rd August 2012, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley

I love it! How about some fake Surlyramic CHUD necklaces....?

How about real ones? I'm sure Amy would make them if enough requests came in. Carrier should approve, because it serves the valuable purpose of flagging the impure and unholy.

westprog · 23rd August 2012, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by 16.5

By the way, the intellectual howitzer of the Atheism Plusalittlebitofthoughtcontrol, the pop gun of Plus, the A-Bomb of the atheists, the Daisy Cuuter to the deists, Rich Carrier opens up with this charming turn of phrase:

"There is a new atheism brewing, and it’s the rift we need, to cut free the dead weight so we can kick the C.H.U.D.’s back into the sewers and finally disown them, once and for all."

Is C.H.U.D. an acronym that the cool kids at FtB use or is really a reference to that 80's movie C.H.U.D Canibalistic Humanoid Underground Dweller?

I either case, it is ridiculously juvenile.

Strangely enough, the supposed problems of the atheist community - abusiveness, sexism, racism - don't seem to apply on this forum. Gender and race are as visible as people want them to be. Enforcement of the no-abuse rule is very imperfect, but it's existence tends to damp down personalisation. Especially annoying people can be put on ignore. Nobody seems to feel the need to find a JREF+ where there is consensus and friendship.

dasmiller · 23rd August 2012, 09:31 AM

I'm a charter member of AANAFD, or Atheists Against Naziism and False Dichotomies.

Anyone who isn't a member is a Nazi who agrees with false dichotomies.

RebeccaBradley · 23rd August 2012, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by westprog

Strangely enough, the supposed problems of the atheist community - abusiveness, sexism, racism - don't seem to apply on this forum. Gender and race are as visible as people want them to be. Enforcement of the no-abuse rule is very imperfect, but it's existence tends to damp down personalisation. Especially annoying people can be put on ignore. Nobody seems to feel the need to find a JREF+ where there is consensus and friendship.

I guess that means this forum is not a "safe space".

Good.

Walter Wayne · 23rd August 2012, 09:47 AM

If the comments on Greta's most recent post are any indication, there are a fair number of people who hope other Atheists+ distances themselves from Carrier's post.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/20...-atheism-plus/

Dinwar · 23rd August 2012, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by zeggman

Well, if I'm going to wear one, it's going to stand for Cool Humanist Upsetting Douchebags. I've never eaten a human in my life.

There's a crude joke here, I know it....

Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley

I love it! How about some fake Surlyramic CHUD necklaces....?

I typed "chud" into Google and searched for pictures. They're still prettier than a borophagus. Plus, if it gets really nasty, we can buy masks!

Kochanski · 23rd August 2012, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley

I love it! How about some fake Surlyramic CHUD necklaces....?

Oh, I think we can do better than that

This etsy shop does lovely silver stuff that is about the same price as surly and they do custom work http://www.etsy.com/listing/85653294...moticon-unisex

That way we don't have to give the drama llamas more amunition

16.5 · 23rd August 2012, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by westprog

Strangely enough, the supposed problems of the atheist community - abusiveness, sexism, racism - don't seem to apply on this forum. Gender and race are as visible as people want them to be. Enforcement of the no-abuse rule is very imperfect, but it's existence tends to damp down personalisation. Especially annoying people can be put on ignore. Nobody seems to feel the need to find a JREF+ where there is consensus and friendship.

JREF+? Holy crap, that was my idea! and I was going to write a blog about it in June but the Cubs were in town, and now I am going to write a 10,000 word manifesto about it where the conclusion will ask are you for or against me, but adding a Planet X option, you know, for the kids.

Yours in Double Plus Goodness

~~Richie Carrier~~ 16.5

westprog · 23rd August 2012, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley

I guess that means this forum is not a "safe space".

Good.

JREF+ will be a very, very safe space. Think a cushion-filled nuclear bunker with a full fridge.

El_Spectre · 23rd August 2012, 10:07 AM

[Removed silly joke, I got all excited about a nuke and a fridge...]

RebeccaBradley · 23rd August 2012, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by westprog

JREF+ will be a very, very safe space. Think a cushion-filled nuclear bunker with a full fridge.

And a beer fridge? Perhaps I should reconsider...

qayak · 23rd August 2012, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

"I+"?

More like "I^n"

westprog · 23rd August 2012, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley

And a beer fridge? Perhaps I should reconsider...

An extensive library of books, CD's and DVD's, with all potentially offensive material removed.

zeggman · 23rd August 2012, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by qayak

More like "I^n"

I'm I^n with the I^n crowd
I know what the I^n crowd knows
I'm I^n with the I^n crowd
I go where the I^n crowd goes

qayak · 23rd August 2012, 10:22 AM

Been thinking about this whole A+ thing and I am confused to the point that I don't know how to react... and then I realized... That makes me A(non+).

I think I'll start my own group. Anyone interested? Alcohol will be in the mission statement!

Resume · 23rd August 2012, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by qayak

Been thinking about this whole A+ thing and I am confused to the point that I don't know how to react... and then I realized... That makes me A(non+).

I think I'll start my own group. Anyone interested? Alcohol will be in the mission statement!

So that would be Atheist + Alcohol = ?

qayak · 23rd August 2012, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Resume

So that would be Atheist + Alcohol = ?

I'm not sure you have what it takes to join. The official logo will be"

A(non+)^Alcohol > G+O+D!

Humes fork · 23rd August 2012, 11:35 AM

Can some American please vote for the Libertarian Party in November and tell these clowns that it's because of them? Lots of beers promised when we are together in the dungeons of Carrier and Myers.

On a more serious note, I get the impression that what they don't like is that there are so many atheists and skeptics and humanists who are white males. While I'm all for trying to attract all sorts of people to skepticism, to complain at the attendees that most people who show up on meetups and the like are white males is silly. The people who show up are the ones who are interested and for whom it is convenient. What do you suggest, forcing women and minorities to attend at the point of a gun?

I hope this will just die out. There is just no chance that Skeptics Society, JREF, RDF and the like are going to officially sign up for Atheism+. Let Freethought Blogs drown in cyberspace.

If you are going to put me on your ignore list due to this post, please quote it and say so in this thread. Thank you.

Hokulele · 23rd August 2012, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley

Richard Carrier has now weighed in, with what amounts to an Atheism+ manifesto: http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/2207/

He makes it abundantly clear that, if you are not willing to declare yourself an Atheist+ forthwith and unreservedly, you are a sexist, racist scumbag lacking in all reason, compassion and integrity. Though he does advocate giving such sorry excuses for humanity (ordinary atheists like me) one chance to repent our sins, telling his A+ readers to "...be empathic enough to assume at first that someone being an ignorant dufus is really just ignorant and misinformed, and not a douchebag; give them at least one shot at being educable, before kicking them into the sewers to wallow with their peeps."

The implication is, of course, that he and his A+ colleagues are the infallible arbiters of reason, compassion, and integrity.

Hmph.

The best way to reach out to people who may disagree with you and possibly change their minds is to call them names and ignore them?

Yeah, that will work...

Dinwar · 23rd August 2012, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Humes fork

On a more serious note, I get the impression that what they don't like is that there are so many atheists and skeptics and humanists who are white males. While I'm all for trying to attract all sorts of people to skepticism, to complain at the attendees that most people who show up on meetups and the like are white males is silly. The people who show up are the ones who are interested and for whom it is convenient. What do you suggest, forcing women and minorities to attend at the point of a gun?

I've never understood this type of complaint (that not enough minorities are attending meetings, not you complaining about the complaint). First, it's simply racist--there's no other term for it. You're judging a movement as a failure because of race. Second, there are only three ways to fix it:

1) Keep old white men out,
2) Force other groups to attend,
3) Become interesting to other groups

For some reason, option #3 never seems to come to mind. Atheism+ chose #1.

El_Spectre · 23rd August 2012, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Humes fork

While I'm all for trying to attract all sorts of people to skepticism, to complain at the attendees that most people who show up on meetups and the like are white males is silly. The people who show up are the ones who are interested and for whom it is convenient. What do you suggest, forcing women and minorities to attend at the point of a gun?

Ok, seriousness then.

Obviously, the environment shouldn't be hostile to particular genders, ethnicities, etc. That's a given. And I'm pleased to see that the demographics at TAM at least have gotten more diverse.

That said, it always makes me a little uneasy (as one of those evil white males) when someone - whether a speaker or a friend in the bar - starts talking about how much "we" need to "include" and "draw in" women, minorities, etc. to the event or "movement". The intent is good, but man, does it come off as condescending. It almost sounds like women and non-whites need to be rescued, to be enlightened.

That kind of thinking is unintentionally disrespectful, I think, and it makes me kinda sad.

Dinwar · 23rd August 2012, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by El_Spectre

Obviously, the environment shouldn't be hostile to particular genders, ethnicities, etc. That's a given.

The problem arises when people take mere numbers as proof that the environment is hostile. It's a basic failure of logic--they've latched on to one pet hypothesis, and frequently refuse to even consider any others. In some cases, as Atheism+ demonstrates, this takes on a religious ferver, and can even turn violent (though this is, in my experience, usually limited to small-scale altercations).

Old white men dominate open atheists. Okay, that could mean there's a problem. The solution isn't to demand we fix it right now--the solution is to find out if there IS a problem first. It could very well be that there isn't--this could all be a statistical anomaly, or caused by some other factor none of us has considered yet. Atheism could be the most open and inviting group on the planet, embracing all colors, sexes, races, and genders, but it could still be dominated by one group because frankly more of that group are interested in what atheism is selling.

franklinveaux · 23rd August 2012, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Ocelot

I've swung back and forth on whether @Atheism+ is parody or not. At least 90% seems pretty dead pan then they say something that seems so full of crazy you realise they can't be serious. But then you realise that the crazy thing didn't originate from @Atheism+ but was a retweet from Jen McCreight herself.

Wow, seriously? For reals? How can anyone not read that Twitter account and see that it's parody? (In particular, it's a meanspirited parody of some of the ideas of third-wave feminism; that's why the Twitter account makes specific and frequent mention of "third-wave atheism." It even says so in the Twitter description.)

Folks....it's parody. It doesn't rise to the level of humor of the Landover Baptist Church Web site, and it's certainly nowhere near The Onion, but it's parody. It's not serious. Not a word of it. It's a reaction against complaints that the skeptic and atheist community is misogynistic, which deliberately borrows language from Third Wave feminism to attack people who complain about misogyny in the atheist community.

I happen to think it's poorly done; I do believe that the atheist and skeptic communities really do have a problem with misogyny. Obviously, the person or persons responsible for the Atheism+ Twitter feed disagree.

23rd August 2012, 07:28 AM	#81
16.5 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4,700	Originally Posted by Acleron I don't think we have to worry too much about FTB. Richard Carrier Intellectual artillery? "In the meantime, I call everyone now to pick sides (not in comments here, but publicly, via Facebook or other social media): are you with us, or with them; are you now a part of the Atheism+ movement, or are you going to stick with Atheism Less? Then at least we’ll know who to work with. And who to avoid." Sounds like a Beer Hall in Munich. By the way, nice of Mr. Carrier to co-opt Jen's idea, with a false dichotomy no less. Typical male. Shun me Mr. Carrier, because I am with you AND with them.
16.5 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4,700

23rd August 2012, 07:48 AM	#83
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,931	Originally Posted by Mister Agenda Which is a shame, because names are important and input from people not in the in-group can be valuable. Well, apparently Atheism+ doesn't see it that way. They're already talking uniforms for members, and actively shunning anyone who disagrees with them after minor offenses. Even Ayn Rand accepted people who made what she considered repeated and significant errors, and the Inquisition gave you every opportunity to confess and be absolved while they tortured you (that they'd still kill you was a quirk of their philosophy). It really is disturbing that a bunch of adults can think this way.
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,931	__________________ GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment. Ein krieg ohne feinde.

23rd August 2012, 07:55 AM	#84
squealpiggy Muse Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 658	Hey people! IT'S TIME TO PICK SIDES. OK. Picked.
squealpiggy Muse Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 658

23rd August 2012, 08:09 AM	#85
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,931	Originally Posted by squealpiggy Hey people! IT'S TIME TO PICK SIDES. OK. Picked. I have a standard response to "You're either with me or against me": I choose "against". Anyone who has so little respect for me as to make such an asinine statement isn't someone I want to associate with. Originally Posted by Carrier 1. We believe in being reasonable. This means, first, that we believe in being logical and rational in forming beliefs and opinions. Which means anyone who makes a fallacious argument and, when shown that they have, does not admit it, is not one of us, and is to be marginalized and kicked out, as not part of our movement, and not anyone we any longer wish to deal with. In Skyrim there's a religious organization that goes around attacking anyone who has Daedric artifacts. They serve, ironically, the god of mercy in the game--their logic being that the most merciful thing they can do to someone who's fallen so low as to consort with Daedra is to turn them into a ragged pile of amorphous meat. This quote could have come directly from them.
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,931	__________________ GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment. Ein krieg ohne feinde.

23rd August 2012, 08:19 AM	#86
westprog Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,928	Originally Posted by RockNroll Not even that: I've met atheists who claims that religion has benefits as regards social cohesion, morality, etc., and therefore it should be promoted by the state. An incredibly misguided view in my opinion, but there are indeed atheists who hold it. Also, I've met plenty of theists who are secularists. The smart/non-totalitarian ones tend to recognize the fact that the separation of religion and state is beneficial to everyone, whether they be theists or atheists. It's a fascinating little social experiment. Get a bunch of people together who agree about one thing. Then you find that some of them are acting badly. Rather than institute a few simple rules of behaviour, do an analysis of the problem and decide that the issue isn't behaviour, it's ideological stance. Start a new sub-group with a set of values that aren't up for debate or even precise examination, and subject anyone querying it to the kind of abuse that characterised the problem in the first place. It's like a mini-version of the Cultural Revolution. "So you're against tolerance and civility? Get lost, douchebag!"
westprog Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,928	__________________ Dreary whiner, who gradually outwore his welcome, before blowing it entirely.

23rd August 2012, 07:35 AM	#82
Mister Agenda Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 2,619	Originally Posted by Merton Yeah, I kind of figured that (hence the question mark). 'Twas just a thought I had. Exactly. I'd say people have a duty to correct their misunderstanding, but the group could easily pick a new name that avoids this confusion altogether, especially since it is in its formative phase. My experience is that groups in their formative phase are unwilling to reconsider their name because the project is somebody's or a few people's baby and they are attached to the name they've already decided on. Which is a shame, because names are important and input from people not in the in-group can be valuable. If the National Atheist Party had called itself something like the Secular Progressive Party it would probably have been able to get many more atheists (and theists) to support it than have done so. There were voices right at the beginning saying things like 'hey, this is identity politics'; and 'hey, you say you welcome theists, but you chose a name that automatically excludes them'.

23rd August 2012, 08:44 AM	#87
16.5 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4,700	By the way, the intellectual howitzer of the Atheism Plusalittlebitofthoughtcontrol, the pop gun of Plus, the A-Bomb of the atheists, the Daisy Cuuter to the deists, Rich Carrier opens up with this charming turn of phrase: "There is a new atheism brewing, and it’s the rift we need, to cut free the dead weight so we can kick the C.H.U.D.’s back into the sewers and finally disown them, once and for all." Is C.H.U.D. an acronym that the cool kids at FtB use or is really a reference to that 80's movie C.H.U.D Canibalistic Humanoid Underground Dweller? I either case, it is ridiculously juvenile.
16.5 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4,700

23rd August 2012, 08:50 AM	#88
RebeccaBradley Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Ootischenia Posts: 442	Originally Posted by 16.5 Is C.H.U.D. an acronym that the cool kids at FtB use or is really a reference to that 80's movie C.H.U.D Canibalistic Humanoid Underground Dweller? I either case, it is ridiculously juvenile. Oh, so that's what it means. One of the commenters asked Richard that, and he said something like Cannibalistic Mutant Sewer Dweller, which I noticed did not add up to CHUD. More like CMSD. Thanks for the illumination!

23rd August 2012, 08:56 AM	#89
zeggman Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,761	Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley Oh, so that's what it means. One of the commenters asked Richard that, and he said something like Cannibalistic Mutant Sewer Dweller, which I noticed did not add up to CHUD. More like CMSD. Thanks for the illumination! I recognized the acronym from that movie I've never seen, but I was sure the A+sters had assigned it to some hip new set of insulting terms. How disappointing.
zeggman Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,761

23rd August 2012, 09:01 AM	#90
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,931	Originally Posted by zeggman I recognized the acronym from that movie I've never seen, but I was sure the A+sters had assigned it to some hip new set of insulting terms. How disappointing. I say, as soon as we see A+ pins the rest of us start wearing CHUD pins. I mean, in the USA how many of our national symbols started as insults?
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,931	__________________ GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment. Ein krieg ohne feinde.

23rd August 2012, 09:05 AM	#91
KoihimeNakamura Creativity Murderer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Graham, WA Posts: 6,853	Guys,I'm starting Skeptics*, so we can always take precedence in operations.
	__________________ Don't mind me.

23rd August 2012, 09:09 AM	#92
Merton Muse Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Montana, USA Posts: 576	Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura Guys,I'm starting Skeptics, so we can always take precedence in operations. And everyone knows that splats () are more inclusive than pluses (+) anyway. [/REGEX JOKE]
	__________________ "My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." - Thomas Paine "We are convinced that liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; and that socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality." - Mikhail Bakunin

23rd August 2012, 09:10 AM	#93
zeggman Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,761	Originally Posted by Dinwar I say, as soon as we see A+ pins the rest of us start wearing CHUD pins. I mean, in the USA how many of our national symbols started as insults? Well, if I'm going to wear one, it's going to stand for Cool Humanist Upsetting Douchebags. I've never eaten a human in my life.
zeggman Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,761

23rd August 2012, 09:15 AM	#94
16.5 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4,700	Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura Guys,I'm starting Skeptics*, so we can always take precedence in operations. I'm goint to start Aaathiesm Plus so I'm first in the freaking yellow pages.
16.5 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4,700

23rd August 2012, 09:18 AM	#95
El_Spectre Lizard Scum Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Arizona Bay Posts: 1,206	Originally Posted by squealpiggy Hey people! IT'S TIME TO PICK SIDES. OK. Picked. Splitter!
	__________________ Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. - Ambrose Bierce Question your argument if you must mock your opponent to make it... Step 1 in helping spread the skeptical way of thinking: Don't be a jerk.

23rd August 2012, 09:26 AM	#97
16.5 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4,700	Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley I love it! How about some fake Surlyramic CHUD necklaces....? Should be pretty simple, just a dab of paint or two to transform this: CHO
16.5 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4,700

23rd August 2012, 09:26 AM	#98
Myriad Hyperthetical Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 8,198	Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley I love it! How about some fake Surlyramic CHUD necklaces....? How about real ones? I'm sure Amy would make them if enough requests came in. Carrier should approve, because it serves the valuable purpose of flagging the impure and unholy.
	__________________ The cosmos is a vast Loom, with time the warp and space the weft. We are all fruit of the Loom, unaware.

23rd August 2012, 09:30 AM	#99
westprog Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,928	Originally Posted by 16.5 By the way, the intellectual howitzer of the Atheism Plusalittlebitofthoughtcontrol, the pop gun of Plus, the A-Bomb of the atheists, the Daisy Cuuter to the deists, Rich Carrier opens up with this charming turn of phrase: "There is a new atheism brewing, and it’s the rift we need, to cut free the dead weight so we can kick the C.H.U.D.’s back into the sewers and finally disown them, once and for all." Is C.H.U.D. an acronym that the cool kids at FtB use or is really a reference to that 80's movie C.H.U.D Canibalistic Humanoid Underground Dweller? I either case, it is ridiculously juvenile. Strangely enough, the supposed problems of the atheist community - abusiveness, sexism, racism - don't seem to apply on this forum. Gender and race are as visible as people want them to be. Enforcement of the no-abuse rule is very imperfect, but it's existence tends to damp down personalisation. Especially annoying people can be put on ignore. Nobody seems to feel the need to find a JREF+ where there is consensus and friendship.
westprog Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,928	__________________ Dreary whiner, who gradually outwore his welcome, before blowing it entirely.

23rd August 2012, 09:31 AM	#100
dasmiller Just the right amount of cowbell Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Well past Hither, looking for Yon Posts: 3,463	I'm a charter member of AANAFD, or Atheists Against Naziism and False Dichotomies. Anyone who isn't a member is a Nazi who agrees with false dichotomies.
	__________________ "In times of war, we need warriors. But this isn't a war." - Phil Plaitt Last edited by dasmiller; 23rd August 2012 at 09:34 AM.

23rd August 2012, 09:37 AM	#101
RebeccaBradley Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Ootischenia Posts: 442	Originally Posted by westprog Strangely enough, the supposed problems of the atheist community - abusiveness, sexism, racism - don't seem to apply on this forum. Gender and race are as visible as people want them to be. Enforcement of the no-abuse rule is very imperfect, but it's existence tends to damp down personalisation. Especially annoying people can be put on ignore. Nobody seems to feel the need to find a JREF+ where there is consensus and friendship. I guess that means this forum is not a "safe space". Good.

23rd August 2012, 09:47 AM	#102
Walter Wayne Wayne's Words Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Ottawa, ON Posts: 2,441	If the comments on Greta's most recent post are any indication, there are a fair number of people who hope other Atheists+ distances themselves from Carrier's post. http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/20...-atheism-plus/

23rd August 2012, 09:47 AM	#103
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,931	Originally Posted by zeggman Well, if I'm going to wear one, it's going to stand for Cool Humanist Upsetting Douchebags. I've never eaten a human in my life. There's a crude joke here, I know it.... Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley I love it! How about some fake Surlyramic CHUD necklaces....? I typed "chud" into Google and searched for pictures. They're still prettier than a borophagus. Plus, if it gets really nasty, we can buy masks!
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,931	__________________ GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment. Ein krieg ohne feinde.

23rd August 2012, 09:49 AM	#104
Kochanski Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Anonymous Unimportant Place (not a secret Scorpion training facility for Shosuro ninjas) Posts: 2,661	Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley I love it! How about some fake Surlyramic CHUD necklaces....? Oh, I think we can do better than that This etsy shop does lovely silver stuff that is about the same price as surly and they do custom work http://www.etsy.com/listing/85653294...moticon-unisex That way we don't have to give the drama llamas more amunition
	__________________ The faith of a skeptic is always in doubt Ninja weasel courtesy of http://www.cheeseweasel.net I-con 31 - March 30 - April, 1, 2012 - There is no place like home - Stony Brook http://www.iconsf.org/ Last edited by Kochanski; 23rd August 2012 at 09:51 AM. Reason: forgot something

23rd August 2012, 09:51 AM	#105
16.5 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4,700	Originally Posted by westprog Strangely enough, the supposed problems of the atheist community - abusiveness, sexism, racism - don't seem to apply on this forum. Gender and race are as visible as people want them to be. Enforcement of the no-abuse rule is very imperfect, but it's existence tends to damp down personalisation. Especially annoying people can be put on ignore. Nobody seems to feel the need to find a JREF+ where there is consensus and friendship. JREF+? Holy crap, that was my idea! and I was going to write a blog about it in June but the Cubs were in town, and now I am going to write a 10,000 word manifesto about it where the conclusion will ask are you for or against me, but adding a Planet X option, you know, for the kids. Yours in Double Plus Goodness ~~Richie Carrier~~ 16.5
16.5 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4,700	Last edited by 16.5; 23rd August 2012 at 10:14 AM.

23rd August 2012, 09:57 AM	#106
westprog Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,928	Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley I guess that means this forum is not a "safe space". Good. JREF+ will be a very, very safe space. Think a cushion-filled nuclear bunker with a full fridge.
westprog Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,928	__________________ Dreary whiner, who gradually outwore his welcome, before blowing it entirely.

23rd August 2012, 10:07 AM	#107
El_Spectre Lizard Scum Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Arizona Bay Posts: 1,206	[Removed silly joke, I got all excited about a nuke and a fridge...]
	__________________ Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. - Ambrose Bierce Question your argument if you must mock your opponent to make it... Step 1 in helping spread the skeptical way of thinking: Don't be a jerk. Last edited by El_Spectre; 23rd August 2012 at 10:20 AM. Reason: lame joke.

23rd August 2012, 10:08 AM	#108
RebeccaBradley Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Ootischenia Posts: 442	Originally Posted by westprog JREF+ will be a very, very safe space. Think a cushion-filled nuclear bunker with a full fridge. And a beer fridge? Perhaps I should reconsider...

23rd August 2012, 10:13 AM	#109
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,711	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer "I+"? More like "I^n"
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,711	__________________ "The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them." (Mark Twain)

23rd August 2012, 10:20 AM	#110
westprog Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,928	Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley And a beer fridge? Perhaps I should reconsider... An extensive library of books, CD's and DVD's, with all potentially offensive material removed.
westprog Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,928	__________________ Dreary whiner, who gradually outwore his welcome, before blowing it entirely.

23rd August 2012, 10:21 AM	#111
zeggman Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,761	Originally Posted by qayak More like "I^n" I'm I^n with the I^n crowd I know what the I^n crowd knows I'm I^n with the I^n crowd I go where the I^n crowd goes
zeggman Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,761

23rd August 2012, 10:22 AM	#112
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,711	Been thinking about this whole A+ thing and I am confused to the point that I don't know how to react... and then I realized... That makes me A(non+). I think I'll start my own group. Anyone interested? Alcohol will be in the mission statement!
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,711	__________________ "The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them." (Mark Twain)

23rd August 2012, 10:25 AM	#113
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,021	Originally Posted by qayak Been thinking about this whole A+ thing and I am confused to the point that I don't know how to react... and then I realized... That makes me A(non+). I think I'll start my own group. Anyone interested? Alcohol will be in the mission statement! So that would be Atheist + Alcohol = ?
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,021

23rd August 2012, 10:39 AM	#114
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,711	Originally Posted by Resume So that would be Atheist + Alcohol = ? I'm not sure you have what it takes to join. The official logo will be" A(non+)^Alcohol > G+O+D!
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,711	__________________ "The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them." (Mark Twain)

23rd August 2012, 11:35 AM	#115
Humes fork Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,356	Can some American please vote for the Libertarian Party in November and tell these clowns that it's because of them? Lots of beers promised when we are together in the dungeons of Carrier and Myers. On a more serious note, I get the impression that what they don't like is that there are so many atheists and skeptics and humanists who are white males. While I'm all for trying to attract all sorts of people to skepticism, to complain at the attendees that most people who show up on meetups and the like are white males is silly. The people who show up are the ones who are interested and for whom it is convenient. What do you suggest, forcing women and minorities to attend at the point of a gun? I hope this will just die out. There is just no chance that Skeptics Society, JREF, RDF and the like are going to officially sign up for Atheism+. Let Freethought Blogs drown in cyberspace. If you are going to put me on your ignore list due to this post, please quote it and say so in this thread. Thank you.
	__________________ "Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated." - Christopher Hitchens Last edited by Humes fork; 23rd August 2012 at 11:36 AM.

23rd August 2012, 11:37 AM	#116
Hokulele Official Nemesis Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Trying to decide whether to set defenses against an army, or against mole rats. Posts: 27,268	Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley Richard Carrier has now weighed in, with what amounts to an Atheism+ manifesto: http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/2207/ He makes it abundantly clear that, if you are not willing to declare yourself an Atheist+ forthwith and unreservedly, you are a sexist, racist scumbag lacking in all reason, compassion and integrity. Though he does advocate giving such sorry excuses for humanity (ordinary atheists like me) one chance to repent our sins, telling his A+ readers to "...be empathic enough to assume at first that someone being an ignorant dufus is really just ignorant and misinformed, and not a douchebag; give them at least one shot at being educable, before kicking them into the sewers to wallow with their peeps." The implication is, of course, that he and his A+ colleagues are the infallible arbiters of reason, compassion, and integrity. Hmph. The best way to reach out to people who may disagree with you and possibly change their minds is to call them names and ignore them? Yeah, that will work...
	__________________ Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" Some person: "Why did you shoot that?" Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" - Tragic Monkey