BBC: Lance Armstrong to have his 7 titles stripped. - Page 3

davefoc · 24th August 2012, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by Marcus

It was 2 or 3 years ago that three of Lance's samples from 1999 were found positive for EPO, but the time limit had passed for sanctions.

What is your source of information for this claim?

Damien Evans · 24th August 2012, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by chillzero

I'd like to echo this question:

Both. Here is the full WADA list:
http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/Wo...st_2012_EN.pdf

Resume · 24th August 2012, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by davefoc

What is your source of information for this claim?

http://www2.lequipe.fr/redirect-v6/h...MSTRONG_2.html

Here's one; yeah, I can't read it either.

chillzero · 24th August 2012, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by Damien Evans

Both. Here is the full WADA list:
http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/Wo...st_2012_EN.pdf

thank you.
This probably covers what I was wondering about:

Quote:

Any pharmacological substance which is not addressed by any of the subsequent sections of the List and with no current approval by any governmental regulatory health authority for human therapeutic use (e.g drugs under pre-clinical or clinical development or discontinued, designer drugs, veterinary medicines) is prohibited at all times.

Damien Evans · 24th August 2012, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by Resume

Who would you believe?

Someone who provides credible evidence.

Damien Evans · 24th August 2012, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by Resume

http://www2.lequipe.fr/redirect-v6/h...MSTRONG_2.html

Here's one; yeah, I can't read it either.

I can't read it either, but I will point out L'Equipe have a reputation for making accusations against Lance that don't often turn out to eventuate.

zooterkin · 24th August 2012, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by Marcus

With blood doping (saving your own blood for later use) it's important to be accurate. You're safe as long as you don't take too much and bust the red cell level on the test.

Actually, I believe they can detect it now by looking for the chemicals that keep the plastic that blood bags are made from supple.

geni · 24th August 2012, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by davefoc

Has the USADA started down the path of investigating every major American athlete that competed before the current level of drug testing expertise was achieved? This will be interesting, if that is what they have in mind. An athlete never knows whether he has won or lost. The results are kept in limbo as each year the athlete's samples are retested using the best technology current for that year. So some athlete that thought he got an Olympic bronze medal ten years ago finds out that after years of submitting his samples for testing the USADA has finally stumbled on a test that produces a positive result and the athlete is stripped of his medal. What total and complete nonsense.

But thats how cycling works. A few days racing then the wait for the drug testing results to come in.

Resume · 24th August 2012, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by Damien Evans

Someone who provides credible evidence.

His teammates?

Resume · 24th August 2012, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Damien Evans

I can't read it either, but I will point out L'Equipe have a reputation for making accusations against Lance that don't often turn out to eventuate.

Sure, they have an angle like anyone else in this fiasco.

Marcus · 24th August 2012, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by davefoc

What is your source of information for this claim?

It started out as a story in Le'Equipe in 2005 but was picked up by the international media. The claims started out rather nebulous but were eventually fleshed out by UCI and the lab employees testifying under oath. It's also been a frequent topic of discussion on the cycling forums. There are no shortage of google hits but I'm not sure which would be the best to link to.

ETA: I agree that Le 'Equipe is not a trustworthy source. I didn't believe it at the time, it was the subsequent developments that convinced me.

Tatyana · 24th August 2012, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

Source?

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycli...-details_x.htm

It is old news, I will see if I can find a better source.

Marcus · 24th August 2012, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Actually, I believe they can detect it now by looking for the chemicals that keep the plastic that blood bags are made from supple.

Yes, I should have used past tense. There have been riders suspended using the new test. The obvious work around would be to use different materials for your blood bags, easier said then done I guess.

Aepervius · 24th August 2012, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by Resume

http://www2.lequipe.fr/redirect-v6/h...MSTRONG_2.html

Here's one; yeah, I can't read it either.

I can read it. Basically the labs which researched the EPO test back in 2004, did in 2005 a test onn the frozen sample fromn Amstrong from 99 and found the characteristic trace.

Aepervius · 24th August 2012, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Damien Evans

I can't read it either, but I will point out L'Equipe have a reputation for making accusations against Lance that don't often turn out to eventuate.

Except that they seem to be reporting from the result of a lab. That's something which is relatively easy to coutner, heck by the lab itself. So far as I can see it was not countered.

The Don · 24th August 2012, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by Damien Evans

I can't read it either, but I will point out L'Equipe have a reputation for making accusations against Lance that don't often turn out to eventuate.

A schoolboy French translation of the article would be:

Originally Posted by L'Equipe

Official documents show that the American used performance-enhancing drugs in 1999, during his first victory of the Tour de France.

A four-month investigation by the sports daily led to this evidence. The facts are indisputable: the leader of the Discovery Channel and U.S. Postal Service teams regularly used banned substances in 1999 and lied about the non-use in competition.

Six times during the checks at the end of his prologue victory in Puy-du-Fou, July 3, 1999, and stages Montaigu - Challans (1st), Grand-Bornand - Sestriere (9th), Sestriere - L Alpe d'Huez (10th), Saint-Galmier - Saint-Flour (12th) and Castres - Saint-Gaudens (14th), samples contained traces of this synthetic hormone, which, through increased production of red blood cells, allows better oxygenation and muscle gain estimated by physiologists to be up to 30%.

The analysis was performed by the laboratory of Chatenay-Malabry, the same one who developed the method of detection of EPO. The lab has been working since 2004 on samples collected and frozen between 1998 and 1999, a time when the use of EPO was commonplace in the peleton.

Resume · 24th August 2012, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by Aepervius

I can read it. Basically the labs which researched the EPO test back in 2004, did in 2005 a test onn the frozen sample fromn Amstrong from 99 and found the characteristic trace.

Originally Posted by The Don

A schoolboy French translation of the article would be:

Thanks.

Nihilianth · 24th August 2012, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Damien Evans

Yes, but that doesn't mean USADA won't say they've stripped the titles. They'll still say that, they'll be lying though. Those titles aren't going anywhere.

And even if they could, all the second and third place riders would be cheats as well, so giving wins to them is retarded.

I agree. It sounds so ludicrous.

LTC8K6 · 24th August 2012, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Marcus

It was 2 or 3 years ago that three of Lance's samples from 1999 were found positive for EPO, but the time limit had passed for sanctions.

IIRC, that's the sample that couldn't conclusively be shown to be from Lance. The positive results are far from certain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_A...ce_urine_tests

LTC8K6 · 24th August 2012, 10:36 AM

http://www.uci.ch/Modules/ENews/ENew...trong&LangId=1

USADA will have to provide proof, it seems, before UCI will take any action.

qayak · 24th August 2012, 10:36 AM

I used to be a big fan of Armstrong's and suspected that all the doping allegations were sour grapes by losing teams who just couldn't figure out how to beat him.

However, once I started reading about the evidence, it became pretty obvious that there was indeed doping going on. When I started I knew nothing about cycling. Still don't, but I did find out doping was rampant. As I read through the evidence against Armstrong it became clear that it was only a matter of time before he would be caught.

I was also disappointed with what I found out about his foundation and no longer contribute in any way, shape or form. Ironically, awhile ago, when Canadian Tire started discounting all their LiveStrong exercise equipment, I commented to my wife that I thought it was all over for him.

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/brows....jsp?locale=en

Quote:

Sale $999.99
Reg. $1,999.99 / 1/2 Price

Things that make you go "Hmmmmm?"

Anyway, no big shock. Lance Armstrong turns out to be human and the fairy tale turns out to be, well, a fairy tale. It won't be the first time those facts have reared their head to me.

qayak · 24th August 2012, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

http://www.uci.ch/Modules/ENews/ENew...trong&LangId=1

USADA will have to provide proof, it seems, before UCI will take any action.

Well, they don't have to provide proof, just "a reasoned decision explaining the action taken."

Pretty likely I think. Especially when Armstrong can no longer rebut. I doubt very much USADA is going to spend all that time to catch him and then let him keep his titles and medals.

Armstrong lost in court once when a judge ruled his lawsuit was nothing more than an attempt to hide the truth, so I think the evidence is pretty good.

Patricio Elicer · 24th August 2012, 10:55 AM

Well, three pages now. I see I'm late to this thread, but... what's the hard evidence they have against Lance?,... and I mean hard evidence.

BenBurch · 24th August 2012, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Marcus

Yes, I should have used past tense. There have been riders suspended using the new test. The obvious work around would be to use different materials for your blood bags, easier said then done I guess.

Glass. How it was done until the early 70s.

LTC8K6 · 24th August 2012, 11:06 AM

I understand where Lance is coming from, and unless I see the proof, he's still the 7 time winner in my book.

The UCI at least requires the USADA to present their reasoning to Lance. I doubt he will care anymore, and neither would I.

I think I suggested a long time ago that Lance should take the position he has taken.

LTC8K6 · 24th August 2012, 11:12 AM

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost...6&postcount=77

Not as long ago as I thought.

Marcus · 24th August 2012, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Patricio Elicer

Well, three pages now. I see I'm late to this thread, but... what's the hard evidence they have against Lance?,... and I mean hard evidence.

Probably nothing hard, just very convincing if you are familiar with how cycling works and the people involved. Floyd Landis told a long, detailed story. Conceivably he could have made the whole thing up. But then you get into people who like and respect Lance and would rather not testify, like Big George, his leutenant for many years, Tyler Hamilton and other Postal teamates.

All this would be very damning in arbitration, where the standards of evidence are lower than in a criminal court, and in the press. Lance made the right choice in conceding.

I Ratant · 24th August 2012, 11:29 AM

He did beat all those other dopers.

Who presumably were at the same physical level anyway.

Damien Evans · 24th August 2012, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Resume

His teammates?

if they provide credible evidence.

Marcus · 24th August 2012, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

I understand where Lance is coming from, and unless I see the proof, he's still the 7 time winner in my book.

The UCI at least requires the USADA to present their reasoning to Lance. I doubt he will care anymore, and neither would I.

I think I suggested a long time ago that Lance should take the position he has taken.

He is still the 7 time winner in my book too. His competitors had chemical assistance also, it didn't help them to beat Lance.

Damien Evans · 24th August 2012, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by qayak

Well, they don't have to provide proof, just "a reasoned decision explaining the action taken."

Pretty likely I think. Especially when Armstrong can no longer rebut. I doubt very much USADA is going to spend all that time to catch him and then let him keep his titles and medals.

Armstrong lost in court once when a judge ruled his lawsuit was nothing more than an attempt to hide the truth, so I think the evidence is pretty good.

That's not what the judge said at all. He heavily criticised both sides for the way they'd handled the affair, and said that although the case looked bad to him he had no legal standing to dismiss it.

Damien Evans · 24th August 2012, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by Marcus

Probably nothing hard, just very convincing if you are familiar with how cycling works and the people involved. Floyd Landis told a long, detailed story. Conceivably he could have made the whole thing up. But then you get into people who like and respect Lance and would rather not testify, like Big George, his leutenant for many years, Tyler Hamilton and other Postal teamates.

All this would be very damning in arbitration, where the standards of evidence are lower than in a criminal court, and in the press. Lance made the right choice in conceding.

Who'd be stupid enough to believe anything Floyd "I denied doping for years and duped people out of millions to fund my case, then eventually admitted that I was a cheat and tried to blame everyone else" Landis said?

funk de fino · 24th August 2012, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Resume

His teammates?

He said, she said. Not credible.

Brown · 24th August 2012, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

And Lance was the only cyclist who knew of this undetectable method?

Seems very unlikely.

Lance should release these organizations from confidentiality wrt his test results/reports. Let's see what they actually have.

That would put the ball in their court.

I suppose that's more tasteful than saying that Lance has decided to take his ball and go home.

Aepervius · 24th August 2012, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

I understand where Lance is coming from, and unless I see the proof, he's still the 7 time winner in my book.

The UCI at least requires the USADA to present their reasoning to Lance. I doubt he will care anymore, and neither would I.

I think I suggested a long time ago that Lance should take the position he has taken.

Fat chance of "you" seeing the evidence personally unless USADA release everything to the public. Also please don't take it wrong, but that sound like a lot of CT guy which refuse to accept anything unless they see evidence "with their own eye".

Aepervius · 24th August 2012, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by funk de fino

He said, she said. Not credible.

One he said she said is one thing.

A few of them with chemical evidence is another.

Damien Evans · 24th August 2012, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Aepervius

One he said she said is one thing.

A few of them with chemical evidence is another.

Evidence that anyone has presented that?

Resume · 24th August 2012, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by funk de fino

He said, she said. Not credible.

All of them? It's they said, he said.

lionking · 24th August 2012, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Aepervius

Fat chance of "you" seeing the evidence personally unless USADA release everything to the public. Also please don't take it wrong, but that sound like a lot of CT guy which refuse to accept anything unless they see evidence "with their own eye".

Exactly. There's been a lot of borderline CT posts in this thread. I'd like to know the motive for USADA acting like this if it doesn't have credible evidence.

Cain · 24th August 2012, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

The evidence is that he's not contesting the charges.

So he's a quitter.

24th August 2012, 08:15 AM	#81
davefoc Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: orange country, california Posts: 7,255	Originally Posted by Marcus It was 2 or 3 years ago that three of Lance's samples from 1999 were found positive for EPO, but the time limit had passed for sanctions. What is your source of information for this claim?
	__________________ The way of truth is along the path of intellectual sincerity. -- Henry S. Pritchett Perfection is the enemy of good enough -- Russian proverb

24th August 2012, 08:23 AM	#82
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 25,302	Originally Posted by chillzero I'd like to echo this question: Both. Here is the full WADA list: http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/Wo...st_2012_EN.pdf
	__________________ WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? - Death "Racism is a disease in society. We're all equal. I don't care what their colour is, or religion. Just as long as they're human beings they're my buddies." - Mandawuy Yunupingu, lead singer of Yothu Yindi

24th August 2012, 08:26 AM	#83
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,028	Originally Posted by davefoc What is your source of information for this claim? http://www2.lequipe.fr/redirect-v6/h...MSTRONG_2.html Here's one; yeah, I can't read it either.
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,028

24th August 2012, 08:30 AM	#85
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 25,302	Originally Posted by Resume Who would you believe? Someone who provides credible evidence.
	__________________ WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? - Death "Racism is a disease in society. We're all equal. I don't care what their colour is, or religion. Just as long as they're human beings they're my buddies." - Mandawuy Yunupingu, lead singer of Yothu Yindi

24th August 2012, 08:32 AM	#86
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 25,302	Originally Posted by Resume http://www2.lequipe.fr/redirect-v6/h...MSTRONG_2.html Here's one; yeah, I can't read it either. I can't read it either, but I will point out L'Equipe have a reputation for making accusations against Lance that don't often turn out to eventuate.
	__________________ WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? - Death "Racism is a disease in society. We're all equal. I don't care what their colour is, or religion. Just as long as they're human beings they're my buddies." - Mandawuy Yunupingu, lead singer of Yothu Yindi

24th August 2012, 08:28 AM	#84
chillzero Domestic Godless Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Top of the world, ma! Posts: 15,234	Originally Posted by Damien Evans Both. Here is the full WADA list: http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/Wo...st_2012_EN.pdf thank you. This probably covers what I was wondering about: Quote: Any pharmacological substance which is not addressed by any of the subsequent sections of the List and with no current approval by any governmental regulatory health authority for human therapeutic use (e.g drugs under pre-clinical or clinical development or discontinued, designer drugs, veterinary medicines) is prohibited at all times.

24th August 2012, 08:33 AM	#87
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 24,587	Originally Posted by Marcus With blood doping (saving your own blood for later use) it's important to be accurate. You're safe as long as you don't take too much and bust the red cell level on the test. Actually, I believe they can detect it now by looking for the chemicals that keep the plastic that blood bags are made from supple.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

24th August 2012, 08:34 AM	#88
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,573	Originally Posted by davefoc Has the USADA started down the path of investigating every major American athlete that competed before the current level of drug testing expertise was achieved? This will be interesting, if that is what they have in mind. An athlete never knows whether he has won or lost. The results are kept in limbo as each year the athlete's samples are retested using the best technology current for that year. So some athlete that thought he got an Olympic bronze medal ten years ago finds out that after years of submitting his samples for testing the USADA has finally stumbled on a test that produces a positive result and the athlete is stripped of his medal. What total and complete nonsense. But thats how cycling works. A few days racing then the wait for the drug testing results to come in.

24th August 2012, 08:34 AM	#89
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,028	Originally Posted by Damien Evans Someone who provides credible evidence. His teammates?
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,028

24th August 2012, 08:35 AM	#90
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,028	Originally Posted by Damien Evans I can't read it either, but I will point out L'Equipe have a reputation for making accusations against Lance that don't often turn out to eventuate. Sure, they have an angle like anyone else in this fiasco.
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,028

24th August 2012, 08:36 AM	#91
Marcus Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Austin Posts: 1,841	Originally Posted by davefoc What is your source of information for this claim? It started out as a story in Le'Equipe in 2005 but was picked up by the international media. The claims started out rather nebulous but were eventually fleshed out by UCI and the lab employees testifying under oath. It's also been a frequent topic of discussion on the cycling forums. There are no shortage of google hits but I'm not sure which would be the best to link to. ETA: I agree that Le 'Equipe is not a trustworthy source. I didn't believe it at the time, it was the subsequent developments that convinced me.
	Last edited by Marcus; 24th August 2012 at 08:47 AM.

24th August 2012, 08:38 AM	#92
Tatyana Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Experiment 1: Flame and Flesh Posts: 3,431	Originally Posted by Newtons Bit Source? http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycli...-details_x.htm It is old news, I will see if I can find a better source.

24th August 2012, 08:42 AM	#93
Marcus Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Austin Posts: 1,841	Originally Posted by zooterkin Actually, I believe they can detect it now by looking for the chemicals that keep the plastic that blood bags are made from supple. Yes, I should have used past tense. There have been riders suspended using the new test. The obvious work around would be to use different materials for your blood bags, easier said then done I guess.

24th August 2012, 08:43 AM	#94
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,759	Originally Posted by Resume http://www2.lequipe.fr/redirect-v6/h...MSTRONG_2.html Here's one; yeah, I can't read it either. I can read it. Basically the labs which researched the EPO test back in 2004, did in 2005 a test onn the frozen sample fromn Amstrong from 99 and found the characteristic trace.
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life.

24th August 2012, 08:45 AM	#95
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,759	Originally Posted by Damien Evans I can't read it either, but I will point out L'Equipe have a reputation for making accusations against Lance that don't often turn out to eventuate. Except that they seem to be reporting from the result of a lab. That's something which is relatively easy to coutner, heck by the lab itself. So far as I can see it was not countered.
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life.

24th August 2012, 09:05 AM	#96
The Don Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cymru Posts: 8,255	Originally Posted by Damien Evans I can't read it either, but I will point out L'Equipe have a reputation for making accusations against Lance that don't often turn out to eventuate. A schoolboy French translation of the article would be: Originally Posted by L'Equipe Official documents show that the American used performance-enhancing drugs in 1999, during his first victory of the Tour de France. A four-month investigation by the sports daily led to this evidence. The facts are indisputable: the leader of the Discovery Channel and U.S. Postal Service teams regularly used banned substances in 1999 and lied about the non-use in competition. Six times during the checks at the end of his prologue victory in Puy-du-Fou, July 3, 1999, and stages Montaigu - Challans (1st), Grand-Bornand - Sestriere (9th), Sestriere - L Alpe d'Huez (10th), Saint-Galmier - Saint-Flour (12th) and Castres - Saint-Gaudens (14th), samples contained traces of this synthetic hormone, which, through increased production of red blood cells, allows better oxygenation and muscle gain estimated by physiologists to be up to 30%. The analysis was performed by the laboratory of Chatenay-Malabry, the same one who developed the method of detection of EPO. The lab has been working since 2004 on samples collected and frozen between 1998 and 1999, a time when the use of EPO was commonplace in the peleton.

24th August 2012, 09:13 AM	#97
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,028	Originally Posted by Aepervius I can read it. Basically the labs which researched the EPO test back in 2004, did in 2005 a test onn the frozen sample fromn Amstrong from 99 and found the characteristic trace. Originally Posted by The Don A schoolboy French translation of the article would be: Thanks.
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,028

24th August 2012, 10:05 AM	#98
Nihilianth Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 2,224	Originally Posted by Damien Evans Yes, but that doesn't mean USADA won't say they've stripped the titles. They'll still say that, they'll be lying though. Those titles aren't going anywhere. And even if they could, all the second and third place riders would be cheats as well, so giving wins to them is retarded. I agree. It sounds so ludicrous.

24th August 2012, 10:33 AM	#99
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 12,666	Originally Posted by Marcus It was 2 or 3 years ago that three of Lance's samples from 1999 were found positive for EPO, but the time limit had passed for sanctions. IIRC, that's the sample that couldn't conclusively be shown to be from Lance. The positive results are far from certain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_A...ce_urine_tests
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

24th August 2012, 10:36 AM	#100
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 12,666	http://www.uci.ch/Modules/ENews/ENew...trong&LangId=1 USADA will have to provide proof, it seems, before UCI will take any action.
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

24th August 2012, 10:36 AM	#101
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,713	I used to be a big fan of Armstrong's and suspected that all the doping allegations were sour grapes by losing teams who just couldn't figure out how to beat him. However, once I started reading about the evidence, it became pretty obvious that there was indeed doping going on. When I started I knew nothing about cycling. Still don't, but I did find out doping was rampant. As I read through the evidence against Armstrong it became clear that it was only a matter of time before he would be caught. I was also disappointed with what I found out about his foundation and no longer contribute in any way, shape or form. Ironically, awhile ago, when Canadian Tire started discounting all their LiveStrong exercise equipment, I commented to my wife that I thought it was all over for him. http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/brows....jsp?locale=en Quote: Sale $999.99 Reg. $1,999.99 / 1/2 Price Things that make you go "Hmmmmm?" Anyway, no big shock. Lance Armstrong turns out to be human and the fairy tale turns out to be, well, a fairy tale. It won't be the first time those facts have reared their head to me.
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,713	__________________ "The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them." (Mark Twain)

24th August 2012, 10:42 AM	#102
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,713	Originally Posted by LTC8K6 http://www.uci.ch/Modules/ENews/ENew...trong&LangId=1 USADA will have to provide proof, it seems, before UCI will take any action. Well, they don't have to provide proof, just "a reasoned decision explaining the action taken." Pretty likely I think. Especially when Armstrong can no longer rebut. I doubt very much USADA is going to spend all that time to catch him and then let him keep his titles and medals. Armstrong lost in court once when a judge ruled his lawsuit was nothing more than an attempt to hide the truth, so I think the evidence is pretty good.
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,713	__________________ "The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them." (Mark Twain)

24th August 2012, 10:55 AM	#103
Patricio Elicer Obsessed with Reality Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 4,350	Well, three pages now. I see I'm late to this thread, but... what's the hard evidence they have against Lance?,... and I mean hard evidence.
	__________________ "Well, I've never discussed it before on the forum, but, Patricio, you're the real reason I didn't show up at TAM I. Once I found out you were going, I cancelled all my plans, knowing that you would likely hunt me down and ask me questions about English language usage. I finally decided that I wouldn't be able to handle the pressure of your questions ..." - Mr. Skinny on 5th April 2007.

24th August 2012, 11:06 AM	#104
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,184	Originally Posted by Marcus Yes, I should have used past tense. There have been riders suspended using the new test. The obvious work around would be to use different materials for your blood bags, easier said then done I guess. Glass. How it was done until the early 70s.
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24th August 2012, 11:06 AM	#105
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 12,666	I understand where Lance is coming from, and unless I see the proof, he's still the 7 time winner in my book. The UCI at least requires the USADA to present their reasoning to Lance. I doubt he will care anymore, and neither would I. I think I suggested a long time ago that Lance should take the position he has taken.
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

24th August 2012, 11:12 AM	#106
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 12,666	http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost...6&postcount=77 Not as long ago as I thought.
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

24th August 2012, 11:29 AM	#107
Marcus Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Austin Posts: 1,841	Originally Posted by Patricio Elicer Well, three pages now. I see I'm late to this thread, but... what's the hard evidence they have against Lance?,... and I mean hard evidence. Probably nothing hard, just very convincing if you are familiar with how cycling works and the people involved. Floyd Landis told a long, detailed story. Conceivably he could have made the whole thing up. But then you get into people who like and respect Lance and would rather not testify, like Big George, his leutenant for many years, Tyler Hamilton and other Postal teamates. All this would be very damning in arbitration, where the standards of evidence are lower than in a criminal court, and in the press. Lance made the right choice in conceding.

24th August 2012, 11:29 AM	#108
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	He did beat all those other dopers. Who presumably were at the same physical level anyway.

24th August 2012, 11:31 AM	#109
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 25,302	Originally Posted by Resume His teammates? if they provide credible evidence.
	__________________ WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? - Death "Racism is a disease in society. We're all equal. I don't care what their colour is, or religion. Just as long as they're human beings they're my buddies." - Mandawuy Yunupingu, lead singer of Yothu Yindi

24th August 2012, 11:34 AM	#110
Marcus Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Austin Posts: 1,841	Originally Posted by LTC8K6 I understand where Lance is coming from, and unless I see the proof, he's still the 7 time winner in my book. The UCI at least requires the USADA to present their reasoning to Lance. I doubt he will care anymore, and neither would I. I think I suggested a long time ago that Lance should take the position he has taken. He is still the 7 time winner in my book too. His competitors had chemical assistance also, it didn't help them to beat Lance.

24th August 2012, 11:34 AM	#111
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 25,302	Originally Posted by qayak Well, they don't have to provide proof, just "a reasoned decision explaining the action taken." Pretty likely I think. Especially when Armstrong can no longer rebut. I doubt very much USADA is going to spend all that time to catch him and then let him keep his titles and medals. Armstrong lost in court once when a judge ruled his lawsuit was nothing more than an attempt to hide the truth, so I think the evidence is pretty good. That's not what the judge said at all. He heavily criticised both sides for the way they'd handled the affair, and said that although the case looked bad to him he had no legal standing to dismiss it.
	__________________ WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? - Death "Racism is a disease in society. We're all equal. I don't care what their colour is, or religion. Just as long as they're human beings they're my buddies." - Mandawuy Yunupingu, lead singer of Yothu Yindi

24th August 2012, 11:36 AM	#112
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 25,302	Originally Posted by Marcus Probably nothing hard, just very convincing if you are familiar with how cycling works and the people involved. Floyd Landis told a long, detailed story. Conceivably he could have made the whole thing up. But then you get into people who like and respect Lance and would rather not testify, like Big George, his leutenant for many years, Tyler Hamilton and other Postal teamates. All this would be very damning in arbitration, where the standards of evidence are lower than in a criminal court, and in the press. Lance made the right choice in conceding. Who'd be stupid enough to believe anything Floyd "I denied doping for years and duped people out of millions to fund my case, then eventually admitted that I was a cheat and tried to blame everyone else" Landis said?
	__________________ WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? - Death "Racism is a disease in society. We're all equal. I don't care what their colour is, or religion. Just as long as they're human beings they're my buddies." - Mandawuy Yunupingu, lead singer of Yothu Yindi

24th August 2012, 11:38 AM	#113
funk de fino Dreaming of unicorns Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Alba Posts: 10,792	Originally Posted by Resume His teammates? He said, she said. Not credible.
	__________________ Stundie - Avoided like the plaque, its a scottish turn of phrase. Christopher 7 - There is no need to contact them for conformation. That is just a denial tactic

24th August 2012, 11:39 AM	#114
Brown Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Twin Cities, Canada Posts: 12,156	Originally Posted by LTC8K6 And Lance was the only cyclist who knew of this undetectable method? Seems very unlikely. Lance should release these organizations from confidentiality wrt his test results/reports. Let's see what they actually have. That would put the ball in their court. I suppose that's more tasteful than saying that Lance has decided to take his ball and go home.
	__________________ Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it. Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise. -- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North "Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice

24th August 2012, 11:46 AM	#115
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,759	Originally Posted by LTC8K6 I understand where Lance is coming from, and unless I see the proof, he's still the 7 time winner in my book. The UCI at least requires the USADA to present their reasoning to Lance. I doubt he will care anymore, and neither would I. I think I suggested a long time ago that Lance should take the position he has taken. Fat chance of "you" seeing the evidence personally unless USADA release everything to the public. Also please don't take it wrong, but that sound like a lot of CT guy which refuse to accept anything unless they see evidence "with their own eye".
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life.