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Old 24th August 2012, 08:15 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
It was 2 or 3 years ago that three of Lance's samples from 1999 were found positive for EPO, but the time limit had passed for sanctions.
What is your source of information for this claim?
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Old 24th August 2012, 08:23 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by chillzero View Post
I'd like to echo this question:
Both. Here is the full WADA list:
http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/Wo...st_2012_EN.pdf
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Old 24th August 2012, 08:26 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by davefoc View Post
What is your source of information for this claim?
http://www2.lequipe.fr/redirect-v6/h...MSTRONG_2.html

Here's one; yeah, I can't read it either.
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Old 24th August 2012, 08:28 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
Both. Here is the full WADA list:
http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/Wo...st_2012_EN.pdf
thank you.
This probably covers what I was wondering about:
Quote:
Any pharmacological substance which is not addressed by any of the subsequent sections of the List and with no current approval by any governmental regulatory health authority for human therapeutic use (e.g drugs under pre-clinical or clinical development or discontinued, designer drugs, veterinary medicines) is prohibited at all times.
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Old 24th August 2012, 08:30 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Who would you believe?
Someone who provides credible evidence.
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Old 24th August 2012, 08:32 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
http://www2.lequipe.fr/redirect-v6/h...MSTRONG_2.html

Here's one; yeah, I can't read it either.
I can't read it either, but I will point out L'Equipe have a reputation for making accusations against Lance that don't often turn out to eventuate.
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Old 24th August 2012, 08:33 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
With blood doping (saving your own blood for later use) it's important to be accurate. You're safe as long as you don't take too much and bust the red cell level on the test.
Actually, I believe they can detect it now by looking for the chemicals that keep the plastic that blood bags are made from supple.
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Old 24th August 2012, 08:34 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by davefoc View Post
Has the USADA started down the path of investigating every major American athlete that competed before the current level of drug testing expertise was achieved? This will be interesting, if that is what they have in mind. An athlete never knows whether he has won or lost. The results are kept in limbo as each year the athlete's samples are retested using the best technology current for that year. So some athlete that thought he got an Olympic bronze medal ten years ago finds out that after years of submitting his samples for testing the USADA has finally stumbled on a test that produces a positive result and the athlete is stripped of his medal. What total and complete nonsense.
But thats how cycling works. A few days racing then the wait for the drug testing results to come in.
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Old 24th August 2012, 08:34 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
Someone who provides credible evidence.
His teammates?
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Old 24th August 2012, 08:35 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
I can't read it either, but I will point out L'Equipe have a reputation for making accusations against Lance that don't often turn out to eventuate.
Sure, they have an angle like anyone else in this fiasco.
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Old 24th August 2012, 08:36 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by davefoc View Post
What is your source of information for this claim?
It started out as a story in Le'Equipe in 2005 but was picked up by the international media. The claims started out rather nebulous but were eventually fleshed out by UCI and the lab employees testifying under oath. It's also been a frequent topic of discussion on the cycling forums. There are no shortage of google hits but I'm not sure which would be the best to link to.

ETA: I agree that Le 'Equipe is not a trustworthy source. I didn't believe it at the time, it was the subsequent developments that convinced me.

Last edited by Marcus; 24th August 2012 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 24th August 2012, 08:38 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
Source?
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycli...-details_x.htm

It is old news, I will see if I can find a better source.
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Old 24th August 2012, 08:42 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Actually, I believe they can detect it now by looking for the chemicals that keep the plastic that blood bags are made from supple.
Yes, I should have used past tense. There have been riders suspended using the new test. The obvious work around would be to use different materials for your blood bags, easier said then done I guess.
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Old 24th August 2012, 08:43 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
http://www2.lequipe.fr/redirect-v6/h...MSTRONG_2.html

Here's one; yeah, I can't read it either.
I can read it. Basically the labs which researched the EPO test back in 2004, did in 2005 a test onn the frozen sample fromn Amstrong from 99 and found the characteristic trace.
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Old 24th August 2012, 08:45 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
I can't read it either, but I will point out L'Equipe have a reputation for making accusations against Lance that don't often turn out to eventuate.
Except that they seem to be reporting from the result of a lab. That's something which is relatively easy to coutner, heck by the lab itself. So far as I can see it was not countered.
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Old 24th August 2012, 09:05 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
I can't read it either, but I will point out L'Equipe have a reputation for making accusations against Lance that don't often turn out to eventuate.
A schoolboy French translation of the article would be:

Originally Posted by L'Equipe
Official documents show that the American used performance-enhancing drugs in 1999, during his first victory of the Tour de France.

A four-month investigation by the sports daily led to this evidence. The facts are indisputable: the leader of the Discovery Channel and U.S. Postal Service teams regularly used banned substances in 1999 and lied about the non-use in competition.

Six times during the checks at the end of his prologue victory in Puy-du-Fou, July 3, 1999, and stages Montaigu - Challans (1st), Grand-Bornand - Sestriere (9th), Sestriere - L Alpe d'Huez (10th), Saint-Galmier - Saint-Flour (12th) and Castres - Saint-Gaudens (14th), samples contained traces of this synthetic hormone, which, through increased production of red blood cells, allows better oxygenation and muscle gain estimated by physiologists to be up to 30%.

The analysis was performed by the laboratory of Chatenay-Malabry, the same one who developed the method of detection of EPO. The lab has been working since 2004 on samples collected and frozen between 1998 and 1999, a time when the use of EPO was commonplace in the peleton.
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Old 24th August 2012, 09:13 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
I can read it. Basically the labs which researched the EPO test back in 2004, did in 2005 a test onn the frozen sample fromn Amstrong from 99 and found the characteristic trace.
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
A schoolboy French translation of the article would be:
Thanks.
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Old 24th August 2012, 10:05 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
Yes, but that doesn't mean USADA won't say they've stripped the titles. They'll still say that, they'll be lying though. Those titles aren't going anywhere.

And even if they could, all the second and third place riders would be cheats as well, so giving wins to them is retarded.
I agree. It sounds so ludicrous.
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Old 24th August 2012, 10:33 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
It was 2 or 3 years ago that three of Lance's samples from 1999 were found positive for EPO, but the time limit had passed for sanctions.
IIRC, that's the sample that couldn't conclusively be shown to be from Lance. The positive results are far from certain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_A...ce_urine_tests
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Old 24th August 2012, 10:36 AM   #100
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http://www.uci.ch/Modules/ENews/ENew...trong&LangId=1

USADA will have to provide proof, it seems, before UCI will take any action.
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Old 24th August 2012, 10:36 AM   #101
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I used to be a big fan of Armstrong's and suspected that all the doping allegations were sour grapes by losing teams who just couldn't figure out how to beat him.

However, once I started reading about the evidence, it became pretty obvious that there was indeed doping going on. When I started I knew nothing about cycling. Still don't, but I did find out doping was rampant. As I read through the evidence against Armstrong it became clear that it was only a matter of time before he would be caught.

I was also disappointed with what I found out about his foundation and no longer contribute in any way, shape or form. Ironically, awhile ago, when Canadian Tire started discounting all their LiveStrong exercise equipment, I commented to my wife that I thought it was all over for him.

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/brows....jsp?locale=en

Quote:
Sale $999.99
Reg. $1,999.99 / 1/2 Price
Things that make you go "Hmmmmm?"

Anyway, no big shock. Lance Armstrong turns out to be human and the fairy tale turns out to be, well, a fairy tale. It won't be the first time those facts have reared their head to me.
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Old 24th August 2012, 10:42 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
http://www.uci.ch/Modules/ENews/ENew...trong&LangId=1

USADA will have to provide proof, it seems, before UCI will take any action.
Well, they don't have to provide proof, just "a reasoned decision explaining the action taken."

Pretty likely I think. Especially when Armstrong can no longer rebut. I doubt very much USADA is going to spend all that time to catch him and then let him keep his titles and medals.

Armstrong lost in court once when a judge ruled his lawsuit was nothing more than an attempt to hide the truth, so I think the evidence is pretty good.
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Old 24th August 2012, 10:55 AM   #103
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Well, three pages now. I see I'm late to this thread, but... what's the hard evidence they have against Lance?,... and I mean hard evidence.
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Old 24th August 2012, 11:06 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Yes, I should have used past tense. There have been riders suspended using the new test. The obvious work around would be to use different materials for your blood bags, easier said then done I guess.
Glass. How it was done until the early 70s.
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Old 24th August 2012, 11:06 AM   #105
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I understand where Lance is coming from, and unless I see the proof, he's still the 7 time winner in my book.

The UCI at least requires the USADA to present their reasoning to Lance. I doubt he will care anymore, and neither would I.

I think I suggested a long time ago that Lance should take the position he has taken.
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Old 24th August 2012, 11:12 AM   #106
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http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost...6&postcount=77

Not as long ago as I thought.
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Old 24th August 2012, 11:29 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Patricio Elicer View Post
Well, three pages now. I see I'm late to this thread, but... what's the hard evidence they have against Lance?,... and I mean hard evidence.
Probably nothing hard, just very convincing if you are familiar with how cycling works and the people involved. Floyd Landis told a long, detailed story. Conceivably he could have made the whole thing up. But then you get into people who like and respect Lance and would rather not testify, like Big George, his leutenant for many years, Tyler Hamilton and other Postal teamates.

All this would be very damning in arbitration, where the standards of evidence are lower than in a criminal court, and in the press. Lance made the right choice in conceding.
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Old 24th August 2012, 11:29 AM   #108
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He did beat all those other dopers. Who presumably were at the same physical level anyway.
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Old 24th August 2012, 11:31 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
His teammates?
if they provide credible evidence.
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Old 24th August 2012, 11:34 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I understand where Lance is coming from, and unless I see the proof, he's still the 7 time winner in my book.

The UCI at least requires the USADA to present their reasoning to Lance. I doubt he will care anymore, and neither would I.

I think I suggested a long time ago that Lance should take the position he has taken.
He is still the 7 time winner in my book too. His competitors had chemical assistance also, it didn't help them to beat Lance.
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Old 24th August 2012, 11:34 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Well, they don't have to provide proof, just "a reasoned decision explaining the action taken."

Pretty likely I think. Especially when Armstrong can no longer rebut. I doubt very much USADA is going to spend all that time to catch him and then let him keep his titles and medals.

Armstrong lost in court once when a judge ruled his lawsuit was nothing more than an attempt to hide the truth, so I think the evidence is pretty good.
That's not what the judge said at all. He heavily criticised both sides for the way they'd handled the affair, and said that although the case looked bad to him he had no legal standing to dismiss it.
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Old 24th August 2012, 11:36 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Probably nothing hard, just very convincing if you are familiar with how cycling works and the people involved. Floyd Landis told a long, detailed story. Conceivably he could have made the whole thing up. But then you get into people who like and respect Lance and would rather not testify, like Big George, his leutenant for many years, Tyler Hamilton and other Postal teamates.

All this would be very damning in arbitration, where the standards of evidence are lower than in a criminal court, and in the press. Lance made the right choice in conceding.
Who'd be stupid enough to believe anything Floyd "I denied doping for years and duped people out of millions to fund my case, then eventually admitted that I was a cheat and tried to blame everyone else" Landis said?
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Old 24th August 2012, 11:38 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
His teammates?
He said, she said. Not credible.
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Old 24th August 2012, 11:39 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
And Lance was the only cyclist who knew of this undetectable method?

Seems very unlikely.

Lance should release these organizations from confidentiality wrt his test results/reports. Let's see what they actually have.

That would put the ball in their court.
I suppose that's more tasteful than saying that Lance has decided to take his ball and go home.
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Old 24th August 2012, 11:46 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I understand where Lance is coming from, and unless I see the proof, he's still the 7 time winner in my book.

The UCI at least requires the USADA to present their reasoning to Lance. I doubt he will care anymore, and neither would I.

I think I suggested a long time ago that Lance should take the position he has taken.
Fat chance of "you" seeing the evidence personally unless USADA release everything to the public. Also please don't take it wrong, but that sound like a lot of CT guy which refuse to accept anything unless they see evidence "with their own eye".
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Old 24th August 2012, 11:48 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
He said, she said. Not credible.
One he said she said is one thing.

A few of them with chemical evidence is another.
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Old 24th August 2012, 11:50 AM   #117
Damien Evans
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
One he said she said is one thing.

A few of them with chemical evidence is another
.
Evidence that anyone has presented that?
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Old 24th August 2012, 11:52 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
He said, she said. Not credible.
All of them? It's they said, he said.
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Old 24th August 2012, 11:53 AM   #119
lionking
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Fat chance of "you" seeing the evidence personally unless USADA release everything to the public. Also please don't take it wrong, but that sound like a lot of CT guy which refuse to accept anything unless they see evidence "with their own eye".
Exactly. There's been a lot of borderline CT posts in this thread. I'd like to know the motive for USADA acting like this if it doesn't have credible evidence.
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Old 24th August 2012, 12:03 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
The evidence is that he's not contesting the charges.
So he's a quitter.
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