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Craig B · 1st September 2012, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by Femke

Great find, svenax.

Although I find this one looking much more like a modern bit (bridle's metal mouthpiece) than a nail. Which nail was supposed to be the bridle, again?

See my post #14. I'm glad I got that right. Constantine's first soldierly instinct seems to have been to put these holy things to military use.

PeaceCrusader · 1st September 2012, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader

20120901.0630

@Warrior1461, #121

You mentioned that the nails used when Jesus was crucified are in Rome, Vienna, Monza, Trier, Milan, Carpentras, and Siena. Yes, there are more than four. Why not in other places, such as Madrid, Venice, Athens, Cyprus, Pamphylia, Macedonia, Cilicia, Malta, Sicily, Crete, or Britannia?

Originally Posted by Nessie

Why did you pick those other places and where is Britannia?

Originally Posted by svenax

Otoh it makes even less sense to use the term Pamphylia today.

20120901.0220

@Nessie, #196
@svenax, #201

Pamphylia and Cilicia are in present-day Turkey, Asian part. Britannia is the ancient term for Great Britain.

Why are the nails not found in such places in Europe that I mentioned? They are found in places that are in the book “Pasiong Mahal” – Milan, Carpentras, and Rome. Not in Paris though. Why? Forgotten?

“Pasiong Mahal” says that the nail in Rome was mixed with the diadem of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Is this the Iron Crown of Lombardy in the Cathedral of Monza?

How can we know which of the nails are authentic and which are forgeries?

I will cite other things that are in the book and translate them to English. I will cite also what Ama said.

Ausmerican · 1st September 2012, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Doubt

Constantine's mom ran all over the place finding relics. Seems she could not go any place and not find something important. Gullible under any definition.

And finally retired to a nice 20 room mansion she had built with all of the excess 'Pieces of the True Cross' and 'Nails That Crucified Jesus' with an Olympic sized pool filled with all of 'The Collected Last Tear of Christ'.

pakeha · 1st September 2012, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by svenax

Since my Google-fu is at a high right now, here is the nail in the cathedral of Saint Siffrein in Carpentras.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Mors_(Carpentras) (click on the image for a larger version)

It looks even less like a nail than the one in Milan - which also claims to be the same nail as the one in Carpentras.

Great find!
More Dom for all!

I notice PC's false medium missed big time with the Milan/Carpentras confusion and PC hasn't reacted to that yet.

Originally Posted by Craig B

See my post #14. I'm glad I got that right. Constantine's first soldierly instinct seems to have been to put these holy things to military use.

Yes. Supernatural protection for the military is always a priority.

Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader

Are you saying that Ka Apaz is the ‘living prophet’ faking a spirit called Ama? ...

I don't know about ‘living prophet’, but faking, absolutely yes.

svenax · 1st September 2012, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader

Pamphylia and Cilicia are in present-day Turkey, Asian part. Britannia is the ancient term for Great Britain.

Why, yes we know that. But why are you using the ancient names when referring to present-day places?

Incidentally, the present day town and major tourist location of Antalya is located in what once was Pamphylia. I'm sure you still can buy nails from the holy cross there, for the right price of course.

Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader

Why are the nails not found in such places in Europe that I mentioned? They are found in places that are in the book “Pasiong Mahal” – Milan, Carpentras, and Rome. Not in Paris though. Why? Forgotten?

What a strange question. The so-called relics are found in the places where they are kept and nowhere else. Is this not obvious? And it is certainly no secret where they were, so the author of Paisong Mahal would have known that too without any difficulty.

Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader

“Pasiong Mahal” says that the nail in Rome was mixed with the diadem of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Is this the Iron Crown of Lombardy in the Cathedral of Monza?

Yes, no doubt. So the author got Rome and Monza mixed up ...

Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader

How can we know which of the nails are authentic and which are forgeries?

That is easy. They are all forgeries.

Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader

I will cite other things that are in the book and translate them to English. I will cite also what Ama said.

Sure. Knock yourself out.

svenax · 1st September 2012, 03:00 PM

When looking for the history of the nail formerly at Saint Denis, I found this comment about the crown in Monza:

Originally Posted by Sir W. Martin Conway

There is also the ninth century so-called Iron crown at Monza, which may give us some idea of what Charlemagne's crown may have been like. The Iron crown probably belonged to Berengar and was made to be worn. It consists of six curved gold plates hinged together, and the only use of the hinging must have been to enable the circlet to fit a human head. The iron ring is, I think, obviously an addition, made to hold the plates rigidly in a circular form when the crown was dedicated to be hung over an altar and no longer needed to be flexible. The gold crown, in fact, was the original thing and the iron ring was a purely subordinate feature added later for practical purposes.

It was only afterwards that the idea occurred to some genius, who observed the iron ring and not the necessity for it, that the gold and jeweled crown was a mere decoration and setting for the iron ring, which therefore he concluded must have been an exceedingly precious relic, ergo one of the crucifixion nails. A little consideration will show that if the iron ring had been the original feature, no one would have made a decoration for it out of hinged plates, for the hinges would have been both a useless and even a troublesome feature. Nothing, in fact, is less like a decorative addition to a ring of iron than these gold and jewelled plates, which obviously were intended for no such purpose. The iron ring exists to support them, not they to decorate it.

From "The Treasures of Saint Denis - The Abbey of Saint-Denis and its Ancient Treasures" by Sir W. MARTIN CONWAY, F.S.A., 1915.

The Wikipedia article on the crown has an image which clearly shows the iron band allegedly made from one of the nails of the crucifixion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Crown_of_Lombardy

tsig · 1st September 2012, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by pakeha

I'm confused, tsig.
My standard source for information didn't mention the nails.
http://www.godandscience.org/youngea...l#.UEGsXSIXLMx

Not directly but they are talking numbers and we are talking numbers so by biblical reasoning we can conclude that they're talking about the same thing.

The Norseman · 1st September 2012, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader

How can we know which of the nails are authentic and which are forgeries?

Ask Jesus. He might know.

pakeha · 2nd September 2012, 12:30 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

I have seen the Holy Lance containing a nail and Reliquary with part of the cross with a nail hole in it that is at the Schatzkammer in Vienna.

http://www.visitingvienna.com/sights.../schatzkammer/

But they also claim to have a unicorn's horn, so I was suspicious.

Skepticism at it's finest.
More Dom for all!

Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader

...How can we know which of the nails are authentic and which are forgeries?...

What makes you think any of these nails are authentic, PC?
I ask in all seriousness and with due respect.

The manufacture and sale of 'relics' was quite an industry, you know.

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/a...l_relic_trade/
http://www.answers.com/topic/relic

MRC_Hans · 3rd September 2012, 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader

20120901.0320

@svenax, #172

This is what is in the book “Awit at Salaysay ng Pasiong Mahal” first published in 1884 on page 204:

“At ito ring pakong mahal
ang sa dagat binitiwan
ang nasa Paris na bayan,
sa Templong lubhang mainam
ni San Dionisiong banal.”

English translation:
“And this is also the beloved nail
that was dropped into the sea
which is in the town of Paris,
in a Temple that is good
for the holy Saint Dionysius.”

From Wikipedia, Saint Denis (also called Dionysius, Dennis, or Denys) was the Bishop of Paris in the third century AD. He is the patron of Paris, France. The medieval and modern French name “Denis” derives from the ancient name Dionysius.

There is in Paris called the Saint Denis Basilica which became the burial place for the kings of France.

And so what?

Hans

PeaceCrusader · 3rd September 2012, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

And so what?

Hans

20120904.0605

@MRC Hans, #210

“Pasiong Mahal” states that there was a Saint Denis (also called in ancient time Dionysius) in Paris, France. A Basilica was erected there in his honor which became the burial place for the kings of France. Just think, why the kings of France have to be buried here.

Should the Basilica search for this nail? The book is correct in stating at least two places – Carpentras, France and Milan, Italy. The one in Rome may be a forgery because, first, it is not “octobado” and second, it is not as stated that Saint Helena mixed the nail to make a crown.

svenax · 3rd September 2012, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader

20120904.0605

@MRC Hans, #210

“Pasiong Mahal” states that there was a Saint Denis (also called in ancient time Dionysius) in Paris, France. A Basilica was erected there in his honor which became the burial place for the kings of France. Just think, why the kings of France have to be buried here.

Should the Basilica search for this nail? The book is correct in stating at least two places – Carpentras, France and Milan, Italy. The one in Rome may be a forgery because, first, it is not “octobado” and second, it is not as stated that Saint Helena mixed the nail to make a crown.

PC, the Pasiong Mahal is a devotional poem and does not (as far as I understand) make any claims to being divinely inspired or anything. So why are you clinging so much to what it says?

George152 · 3rd September 2012, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by pakeha

Great find!
More Dom for all!

I notice PC's false medium missed big time with the Milan/Carpentras confusion and PC hasn't reacted to that yet.

Yes. Supernatural protection for the military is always a priority.

I don't know about ‘living prophet’, but faking, absolutely yes.

It's spelt 'profit'

PeaceCrusader · 3rd September 2012, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by pakeha

Skepticism at it's finest.
More Dom for all!

What makes you think any of these nails are authentic, PC?
I ask in all seriousness and with due respect.

The manufacture and sale of 'relics' was quite an industry, you know.

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/a...l_relic_trade/
http://www.answers.com/topic/relic

20120904.0630

@pakeha, #209

Some of the nails claimed to be authentic by different churches may be forgeries. There are only four nails used in nailing the hands and feet of Jesus to the cross. So there could not be more than four.

How can be know the authentic ones? First, the spirit of Ama said that they are “octobado”, eight-sided. I will look for the recording where he said about the nails being “octobado”. I think not all of them are “octobado” because one of them was mixed with the diadem of the Roman Emperor Constantine. I do not know how much was mixed. It may be the whole nail or a portion of the nail. Second, we have a list of places in the book “Pasiong Mahal” where they are – Carpentras, France; Milan, Italy; Rome, Italy; and Paris, France. Carpentras may be Karpentas before. As far as I can remember, Ama confirmed these place. It will be best if we could hear the recording.

The Central Scrutinizer · 3rd September 2012, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader

20120826.1145

A spirit revealed that four nails were used for the hands and feet of Jesus when He was crucified. The nails were eight-sided, “octobado”. They had been retrieved from Jerusalem by Saint Helena, the mother of Emperor Constantine. It is incredible because the nails made of steel floated on the water and were brought to different places – Karpentas, Rome, Milan, and Paris.

Do I believe this? The story is also found at “Awit at salaysay ng Pasiong Mahal” (in Filipino) read and sang during Holy Week in the Philippines. Any comments?

40 acres and a mule

Aren't the crucifixion nails still in Jesus?

pakeha · 3rd September 2012, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader

20120904.0605

@MRC Hans, #210

“Pasiong Mahal” states that there was a Saint Denis (also called in ancient time Dionysius) in Paris, France. A Basilica was erected there in his honor which became the burial place for the kings of France. Just think, why the kings of France have to be buried here.

Should the Basilica search for this nail? The book is correct in stating at least two places – Carpentras, France and Milan, Italy. The one in Rome may be a forgery because, first, it is not “octobado” and second, it is not as stated that Saint Helena mixed the nail to make a crown.

PC, hasn't it sunk in that the relics in Carpentras and Milan claim to be the same nail?
The "Pasiong" got it wrong, listing two different relics both claiming to be the nail worked into a bit or bridle. If Ka Apaz has set her seal of approval on this confusion, it merely shows she's a false medium.
What is so difficult to understand there?

We can take the “octobado” aspect of the authentic relics almost as seriously as the tale of St Evangeline or the wedding day of Reneliniyindi.

Originally Posted by George152

It's spelt 'profit'

Naughty!
A round of Dom for all!

Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader

...
Some of the nails claimed to be authentic by different churches may be forgeries. There are only four nails used in nailing the hands and feet of Jesus to the cross. So there could not be more than four.

How can be know the authentic ones? First, the spirit of Ama said that they are “octobado”, eight-sided. I will look for the recording where he said about the nails being “octobado”. I think not all of them are “octobado” because one of them was mixed with the diadem of the Roman Emperor Constantine. I do not know how much was mixed. It may be the whole nail or a portion of the nail.

Whatever Ka Apaz said about the shape of the nails found by Helene, is there any evidence the Romans made 8-sided nails?

Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader

Second, we have a list of places in the book “Pasiong Mahal” where they are – Carpentras, France; Milan, Italy; Rome, Italy; and Paris, France. Carpentras may be Karpentas before. As far as I can remember, Ama confirmed these place. It will be best if we could hear the recording.

PC, that list of places is mistaken. Carpentras and Milan house relics that both claim to be the same nail fashioned into the Emperor's bridle.
Do you understand that?
Yes, please post up the recording that shows Ka Apaz confirming those places. I'd like to hear them.

hurdygurdy · 3rd September 2012, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by pakeha

PC, hasn't it sunk in that the relics in Carpentras and Milan claim to be the same nail?
The "Pasiong" got it wrong, listing two different relics both claiming to be the nail worked into a bit or bridle. If Ka Apaz has set her seal of approval on this confusion, it merely shows she's a false medium.
What is so difficult to understand there?

We can take the “octobado” aspect of the authentic relics almost as seriously as the tale of St Evangeline or the wedding day of Reneliniyindi.

Naughty!
A round of Dom for all!

Whatever Ka Apaz said about the shape of the nails found by Helene, is there any evidence the Romans made 8-sided nails?

PC, that list of places is mistaken. Carpentras and Milan house relics that both claim to be the same nail fashioned into the Emperor's bridle.
Do you understand that?
Yes, please post up the recording that shows Ka Apaz confirming those places. I'd like to hear them.

I prophesy that PC will only comprehend the last line of your reply.

We will wait and see.

PeaceCrusader · 3rd September 2012, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by svenax

PC, the Pasiong Mahal is a devotional poem and does not (as far as I understand) make any claims to being divinely inspired or anything. So why are you clinging so much to what it says?

20120904.0720

@svenax, #212

Ama said that the “Pasiong Mahal” was taken from the Holy Bible. There are 213 pages of poem, five lines, and even rhyming. Also, there maybe Latin words, not Filipino words, which an ordinary person may not know. For example, “Sedes Sapientiae, Tronor, Dominaciones, Virtudes at Potestades, Qualis Paper, talis Filius, talis Espiritus Sanctus, Mulier, quam dedisti mihi, dedit mihi de ligno et comedi, Et erat subditus illis, Haec omnia tibi dabo si cadens adoraveris me, Ecce Agus Dei Qui tollis peccata mundi, Sicut ovisad occisionem ducetur et quasi agnus tondente, se obmutescet, et non apariet os sunm”, etc.

There are some details which are not found in the Bible. Examples are the names of the cities where the nails are now, Emperor Constantine, Saint Helena, who John is at the crucifixion of Jesus, the parents of the Blessed Virgin Mary, etc.

Most of what is in the book are about the crucifixion and death of Jesus.

AdMan · 3rd September 2012, 04:23 PM

Regarding octobado, where does this word come from, PC? Is it Filipino?

I get the "octo" bit, but googling the whole word only yields PC's posts.

What language is it in?

Hokulele · 3rd September 2012, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader

Should the Basilica search for this nail? The book is correct in stating at least two places – Carpentras, France and Milan, Italy. The one in Rome may be a forgery because, first, it is not “octobado” and second, it is not as stated that Saint Helena mixed the nail to make a crown.

Wait, so if it's not "octobado", it may be a forgery rather than Ka Apaz may have been wrong?

PeaceCrusader, you have just made it quite clear why everything you write can be seen as horrendously biased, and why it is obvious that every single one of your claims are now unfalsifiable, and hence useless on a forum dedicated to critical thinking.

Bravo.

Pixel42 · 3rd September 2012, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader

How can be know the authentic ones? First, the spirit of Ama said that they are “octobado”, eight-sided.

From which it's safe to deduce that the authentic ones (if any such exist) aren't eight-sided, given how completely and utterly wrong "the spirit of Ama" has proved to be about everything else.

MRC_Hans · 3rd September 2012, 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader

20120904.0605

@MRC Hans, #210

“Pasiong Mahal” states that there was a Saint Denis (also called in ancient time Dionysius) in Paris, France. A Basilica was erected there in his honor which became the burial place for the kings of France. Just think, why the kings of France have to be buried here.

Should the Basilica search for this nail? The book is correct in stating at least two places – Carpentras, France and Milan, Italy. The one in Rome may be a forgery because, first, it is not “octobado” and second, it is not as stated that Saint Helena mixed the nail to make a crown.

I repeat: And so what?

More clearly:

You are quoting from various literature, none of which is in any way validated or backed by independent information. It is, in other words, at the very best, anecdotical, but in practice indistinguishable from fiction.

I realize that in your personal opinion, this literature contains the truth; you have made this opinion abundantly clear, and you are entitled to it, however, why do you keep using it as arguments? To the rest of us, it remains entirely unauthoritative, and you might as well be arguing from "Moby Dick".

This is a skeptical/scientific forum, and if you want to support your opinions here, you must provide evidence.

Hans

MRC_Hans · 3rd September 2012, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader

20120904.0630

@pakeha, #209

Some of the nails claimed to be authentic by different churches may be forgeries. There are only four nails used in nailing the hands and feet of Jesus to the cross. So there could not be more than four.

I think we have a failure of communication, here.

PeaceCrusader, you are talking to people who don't even necessarily accept that Jesus existed at all, even as a historical person!

IF someone was crucified, there would be maximum four nails, that goes without saying (and many would assume there were only three).

Here, you write:

Quote:

Some of the nails claimed to be authentic by different churches may be forgeries. There are only four nails used in nailing the hands and feet of Jesus to the cross. So there could not be more than four.

Since there are about 30 claimed nails form the crucifiction on record, some of them not only may be forgeries, they must necessarily be forgeries. So obviously, since there is no plausible provinience for any of them, it is likely that they all are.

Quote:

How can be know the authentic ones? First, the spirit of Ama said that they are “octobado”, eight-sided.

We can't know the authentic ones. Testimony from alleged spirits does not count. There is some historical backing for the notion that such nails may have been octogonal, but we don't even know that with any kind of certainty. Even if it is correct, this knowledge would also have been avialable to forgers, so it means nothing at all.

Hans

pakeha · 4th September 2012, 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by AdMan

Regarding octobado, where does this word come from, PC? Is it Filipino?

I get the "octo" bit, but googling the whole word only yields PC's posts.

What language is it in?

Octagonal is the proper Spanish for octagonal; 'octobado' sounds like what I would expect an illiterate person to say instead of 'octagonal'.
Not, of course, the Holy Spirit.

pakeha · 4th September 2012, 01:42 AM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

From which it's safe to deduce that the authentic ones (if any such exist) aren't eight-sided, given how completely and utterly wrong "the spirit of Ama" has proved to be about everything else.

I was wondering about all the oddities "the spirit of Ama" has come up with: the nonexistent St Evangeline, the elusive Angelina Imdem and her coffin-ridden home in the UK, the Princess Reneliniyindi and her tragic wedding to Philip I, her parents, the nonexistent Helene Curtis fortune and so on.

It occurred to me there may be a connection between the cosmetics industry and Constantine's mum and I may have found it here.

What do you think?

PeaceCrusader · 4th September 2012, 08:45 AM

20120905.0045

Here is what the spirit of Ama said on tape E02B from 10:55:
Ama: “Nasarte rasiom” sa kanang paa.
Sa kaliwang paa, ano? No. No. “Salboloray cabaladoc.” “Salboloray cabaladoc.” All right.
Nasaan ngayon ang apat na pakong ito? Nasa Roma, nasa Francia, nasa Milan. Nasaan pa? Ah? At ang isa’y nasaan? Nasaan naroon si ...?
Tagasaan si Santa Elenang tinatawag ninyo? Sa Germany Constantino. Sino si Constantino? Ha?

English translation:
Ama: “Nasarte rasiom” to the right foot.
To the left foot, what? No. No. “Salbolray cabaladoc.” Salboloray cabaladoc.” All right.
Where are the four nails now? In Rome, in France, in Milan. Where else? Ah? Where is the other one? From where is ...?
Where is Saint Helena that you call from? In Germany Constantine. Who is Constantine? Ha?

The names of the nails are: “Nasarte rasiom” – right foot, “Salboloray cabaladoc” – left foot. I cannot remember the names of the other two but I have written them down in my red notebook which I cannot find at the moment.

Where are the nails now? They are in Rome, in France (maybe he is referring to Paris), and in Milan. All these places are mentioned in “Pasiong Mahal”. The other nail is in Karpentas. Maybe this is the old name. Its name now is Carpentras in France.

Saint Helena is from Germany. Maybe Trier.

svenax · 4th September 2012, 09:13 AM

Delete.

Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader

Where are the nails now? They are in Rome, in France (maybe he is referring to Paris), and in Milan. All these places are mentioned in “Pasiong Mahal”. The other nail is in Karpentas. Maybe this is the old name. Its name now is Carpentras in France.

So?

Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader

Saint Helena is from Germany. Maybe Trier.

Eh, no. Definitely not. Unless you refer to some else than the mother of Constantine the great.

AdMan · 4th September 2012, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader

The names of the nails are: “Nasarte rasiom” – right foot, “Salboloray cabaladoc” – left foot. I cannot remember the names of the other two but I have written them down in my red notebook

Who the heck is supposed to have named these nails, and for what purpose?

And do you have any evidence that those names have been used anywhere else and aren't just gibberish made up by the crone?

pakeha · 4th September 2012, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader

Here is what the spirit of Ama said on tape E02B from 10:55:
Ama: “Nasarte rasiom” sa kanang paa.
Sa kaliwang paa, ano? No. No. “Salboloray cabaladoc.” “Salboloray cabaladoc.” All right.
Nasaan ngayon ang apat na pakong ito? Nasa Roma, nasa Francia, nasa Milan. Nasaan pa? Ah? At ang isa’y nasaan? Nasaan naroon si ...?
Tagasaan si Santa Elenang tinatawag ninyo? Sa Germany Constantino. Sino si Constantino? Ha?

English translation:
Ama: “Nasarte rasiom” to the right foot.
To the left foot, what? No. No. “Salbolray cabaladoc.” Salboloray cabaladoc.” All right.
Where are the four nails now? In Rome, in France, in Milan. Where else? Ah? Where is the other one? From where is ...?
Where is Saint Helena that you call from? In Germany Constantine. Who is Constantine? Ha?

The names of the nails are: “Nasarte rasiom” – right foot, “Salboloray cabaladoc” – left foot. I cannot remember the names of the other two but I have written them down in my red notebook which I cannot find at the moment.

Where are the nails now? They are in Rome, in France (maybe he is referring to Paris), and in Milan. All these places are mentioned in “Pasiong Mahal”. The other nail is in Karpentas. Maybe this is the old name. Its name now is Carpentras in France.

Saint Helena is from Germany. Maybe Trier.

That's quite a remarkable transcription, PC.
It raises a lot of questions with me, though.

To be honest, it really looks as though you 'fish' for answers and Ka Apaz obliges within her limits and with a dash of rudimentary glossolalia to round things off.
Those names for the nails, for example, sound more like glossolalia than real names. I'd be glad to shown I'm wrong, though.

St Helene is from Germany? Are you sure about that?

Just out of curiosity- in these seances, does the spirit of ama ever quote anything but the Pasiong and the KJV?

hurdygurdy · 4th September 2012, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader

20120905.0045

Here is what the spirit of Ama said on tape E02B from 10:55:
Ama: “Nasarte rasiom” sa kanang paa.
Sa kaliwang paa, ano? No. No. “Salboloray cabaladoc.” “Salboloray cabaladoc.” All right.
Nasaan ngayon ang apat na pakong ito? Nasa Roma, nasa Francia, nasa Milan. Nasaan pa? Ah? At ang isa’y nasaan? Nasaan naroon si ...?
Tagasaan si Santa Elenang tinatawag ninyo? Sa Germany Constantino. Sino si Constantino? Ha?

English translation:
Ama: “Nasarte rasiom” to the right foot.
To the left foot, what? No. No. “Salbolray cabaladoc.” Salboloray cabaladoc.” All right.
Where are the four nails now? In Rome, in France, in Milan. Where else? Ah? Where is the other one? From where is ...?
Where is Saint Helena that you call from? In Germany Constantine. Who is Constantine? Ha?

The names of the nails are: “Nasarte rasiom” – right foot, “Salboloray cabaladoc” – left foot. I cannot remember the names of the other two but I have written them down in my red notebook which I cannot find at the moment.

Where are the nails now? They are in Rome, in France (maybe he is referring to Paris), and in Milan. All these places are mentioned in “Pasiong Mahal”. The other nail is in Karpentas. Maybe this is the old name. Its name now is Carpentras in France.

Saint Helena is from Germany. Maybe Trier.

A round of Dom for all!

pakeha · 4th September 2012, 12:00 PM

And another to celebrate how right you were.
Have you thought of trying for the million dollar challenge?

AvalonXQ · 4th September 2012, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Beerina

Nails of Destiny

Is there any special interaction between the Nails of Destiny and explicitly evil artifacts, such as the Hand of Vecna or Sceptre of Asmodeus? Or is that left to DM discretion?

Astreja · 4th September 2012, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Is there any special interaction between the Nails of Destiny and explicitly evil artifacts, such as the Hand of Vecna or Sceptre of Asmodeus? Or is that left to DM discretion?

Well, the alleged nails appear to be at least +5 versus demigods. Funny how the nails are still kicking around in religious shrines while there's no physical trace of the individual who was allegedly slain by them.

On a related matter, it would be interesting to run a DNA analysis on these artifacts. Hypothetically there should be traces of hemoglobin, and that hemoglobin should be identical from nail to nail. Who knows? Maybe we could even clone ourselves a brand new Jesus.

Craig B · 4th September 2012, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by Astreja

On a related matter, it would be interesting to run a DNA analysis on these artifacts. Hypothetically there should be traces of hemoglobin, and that hemoglobin should be identical from nail to nail. Who knows? Maybe we could even clone ourselves a brand new Jesus.

Been thought of already by a bunch of pranksters called "Christians for the Cloning of Jesus". See http://sniggle.net/godhoax.php. They propose the "blood" from the Turin Shroud as DNA source. But surely some transubstantiated communion wine would do equally well.

Brainache · 4th September 2012, 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by Craig B

Been thought of already by a bunch of pranksters called "Christians for the Cloning of Jesus". See http://sniggle.net/godhoax.php. They propose the "blood" from the Turin Shroud as DNA source. But surely some transubstantiated communion wine would do equally well.

I also read a Novel based on this idea.

http://www.harpercollins.com.au/book...=9780207196096

pakeha · 5th September 2012, 03:16 AM

Originally Posted by Craig B

Been thought of already by a bunch of pranksters called "Christians for the Cloning of Jesus". See http://sniggle.net/godhoax.php. They propose the "blood" from the Turin Shroud as DNA source. But surely some transubstantiated communion wine would do equally well.

Thanks for the link, it was new to me and I love new links almost as much as I love passion fruit, or maracuyá.

It comes from the Passion flower:

Quote:

The "Passion" in "passion flower" refers to the passion of Jesus in Christian theology. In the 15th and 16th centuries, Spanish Christian missionaries adopted the unique physical structures of this plant, particularly the numbers of its various flower parts, as symbols of the last days of Jesus and especially his crucifixion:
Blue Passion Flower (P. caerulea) showing most elements of the Christian symbolism

The pointed tips of the leaves were taken to represent the Holy Lance.
The tendrils represent the whips used in the flagellation of Christ.
The ten petals and sepals represent the ten faithful apostles (excluding St. Peter the denier and Judas Iscariot the betrayer).
The flower's radial filaments, which can number more than a hundred and vary from flower to flower, represent the crown of thorns.
The chalice-shaped ovary with its receptacle represents a hammer or the Holy Grail
The 3 stigmas represent the 3 nails and the 5 anthers below them the 5 wounds (four by the nails and one by the lance).
The blue and white colors of many species' flowers represent Heaven and Purity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passiflora

I never eat passion fruit Pavlova without thinking of this thread!

Craig B · 5th September 2012, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by pakeha

Thanks for the link, it was new to me and I love new links almost as much as I love passion fruit, or maracuyá.

It comes from the Passion flower:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passiflora

I never eat passion fruit Pavlova without thinking of this thread!

They grow in abundance here in Italy. The flowers are the most astonishing things. They look artificial. Tasty fruit too.

hurdygurdy · 5th September 2012, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by pakeha

And another to celebrate how right you were.
Have you thought of trying for the million dollar challenge?

I'd love to, but predicting PC's modus operandi is so easy that I should apply for the 25 cent challenge instead.

PeaceCrusader · 5th September 2012, 04:19 AM

Originally Posted by AdMan

Who the heck is supposed to have named these nails, and for what purpose?

And do you have any evidence that those names have been used anywhere else and aren't just gibberish made up by the crone?

20120905.2050

@AdMan, #228

Who named the nails? Maybe the spirit of Ama. I do not know. What is the purpose of naming them? I also do not know.

Here are the names of the other two nails from tape K15B: “Prepram Anacnom” and “Sumaclorde”. I am not sure if it is a “c” or a “k”. “Nasarte Rasiom” maybe “Nasarte Rasion” and “Salboloray Cabaladoc” maybe “Sabuluray Cabaladoc”. These are how I hear them in tape K15B.

I will upload the original Filipino text in http://aristean.org/pahayagxxx.htm (where xxx will be a number from 080 to 082) and just put the translation here.

PeaceCrusader · 5th September 2012, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by Craig B

They grow in abundance here in Italy. The flowers are the most astonishing things. They look artificial. Tasty fruit too.

20120905.2120

@Craig B, #237

Where in Italy do you live? Are you near Rome or Milan? When you go to these places, could you please tell us about the relic that they keep, especially the nails and the Iron Crown of Lombardy in Monza (near Milan)?

1st September 2012, 07:54 AM	#201
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,332	Originally Posted by Femke Great find, svenax. Although I find this one looking much more like a modern bit (bridle's metal mouthpiece) than a nail. Which nail was supposed to be the bridle, again? See my post #14. I'm glad I got that right. Constantine's first soldierly instinct seems to have been to put these holy things to military use.
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,332

1st September 2012, 10:15 AM	#202
PeaceCrusader Muse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 955	Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader 20120901.0630 @Warrior1461, #121 You mentioned that the nails used when Jesus was crucified are in Rome, Vienna, Monza, Trier, Milan, Carpentras, and Siena. Yes, there are more than four. Why not in other places, such as Madrid, Venice, Athens, Cyprus, Pamphylia, Macedonia, Cilicia, Malta, Sicily, Crete, or Britannia? Originally Posted by Nessie Why did you pick those other places and where is Britannia? Originally Posted by svenax Otoh it makes even less sense to use the term Pamphylia today. 20120901.0220 @Nessie, #196 @svenax, #201 Pamphylia and Cilicia are in present-day Turkey, Asian part. Britannia is the ancient term for Great Britain. Why are the nails not found in such places in Europe that I mentioned? They are found in places that are in the book “Pasiong Mahal” – Milan, Carpentras, and Rome. Not in Paris though. Why? Forgotten? “Pasiong Mahal” says that the nail in Rome was mixed with the diadem of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Is this the Iron Crown of Lombardy in the Cathedral of Monza? How can we know which of the nails are authentic and which are forgeries? I will cite other things that are in the book and translate them to English. I will cite also what Ama said.
PeaceCrusader Muse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 955

1st September 2012, 10:53 AM	#203
Ausmerican Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,416	Originally Posted by Doubt Constantine's mom ran all over the place finding relics. Seems she could not go any place and not find something important. Gullible under any definition. And finally retired to a nice 20 room mansion she had built with all of the excess 'Pieces of the True Cross' and 'Nails That Crucified Jesus' with an Olympic sized pool filled with all of 'The Collected Last Tear of Christ'.
Ausmerican Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,416	__________________ Everyone must believe in something. I believe I'll go canoeing. Henry David Thoreau

1st September 2012, 11:38 AM	#204
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,246	Originally Posted by svenax Since my Google-fu is at a high right now, here is the nail in the cathedral of Saint Siffrein in Carpentras. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Mors_(Carpentras) (click on the image for a larger version) It looks even less like a nail than the one in Milan - which also claims to be the same nail as the one in Carpentras. Great find! More Dom for all! I notice PC's false medium missed big time with the Milan/Carpentras confusion and PC hasn't reacted to that yet. Originally Posted by Craig B See my post #14. I'm glad I got that right. Constantine's first soldierly instinct seems to have been to put these holy things to military use. Yes. Supernatural protection for the military is always a priority. Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader Are you saying that Ka Apaz is the ‘living prophet’ faking a spirit called Ama? ... I don't know about ‘living prophet’, but faking, absolutely yes.
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,246

1st September 2012, 02:49 PM	#205
svenax Thinker Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 173	Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader Pamphylia and Cilicia are in present-day Turkey, Asian part. Britannia is the ancient term for Great Britain. Why, yes we know that. But why are you using the ancient names when referring to present-day places? Incidentally, the present day town and major tourist location of Antalya is located in what once was Pamphylia. I'm sure you still can buy nails from the holy cross there, for the right price of course. Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader Why are the nails not found in such places in Europe that I mentioned? They are found in places that are in the book “Pasiong Mahal” – Milan, Carpentras, and Rome. Not in Paris though. Why? Forgotten? What a strange question. The so-called relics are found in the places where they are kept and nowhere else. Is this not obvious? And it is certainly no secret where they were, so the author of Paisong Mahal would have known that too without any difficulty. Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader “Pasiong Mahal” says that the nail in Rome was mixed with the diadem of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Is this the Iron Crown of Lombardy in the Cathedral of Monza? Yes, no doubt. So the author got Rome and Monza mixed up ... Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader How can we know which of the nails are authentic and which are forgeries? That is easy. They are all forgeries. Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader I will cite other things that are in the book and translate them to English. I will cite also what Ama said. Sure. Knock yourself out.
	Last edited by svenax; 1st September 2012 at 03:12 PM.

1st September 2012, 03:00 PM	#206
svenax Thinker Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 173	When looking for the history of the nail formerly at Saint Denis, I found this comment about the crown in Monza: Originally Posted by Sir W. Martin Conway There is also the ninth century so-called Iron crown at Monza, which may give us some idea of what Charlemagne's crown may have been like. The Iron crown probably belonged to Berengar and was made to be worn. It consists of six curved gold plates hinged together, and the only use of the hinging must have been to enable the circlet to fit a human head. The iron ring is, I think, obviously an addition, made to hold the plates rigidly in a circular form when the crown was dedicated to be hung over an altar and no longer needed to be flexible. The gold crown, in fact, was the original thing and the iron ring was a purely subordinate feature added later for practical purposes. It was only afterwards that the idea occurred to some genius, who observed the iron ring and not the necessity for it, that the gold and jeweled crown was a mere decoration and setting for the iron ring, which therefore he concluded must have been an exceedingly precious relic, ergo one of the crucifixion nails. A little consideration will show that if the iron ring had been the original feature, no one would have made a decoration for it out of hinged plates, for the hinges would have been both a useless and even a troublesome feature. Nothing, in fact, is less like a decorative addition to a ring of iron than these gold and jewelled plates, which obviously were intended for no such purpose. The iron ring exists to support them, not they to decorate it. From "The Treasures of Saint Denis - The Abbey of Saint-Denis and its Ancient Treasures" by Sir W. MARTIN CONWAY, F.S.A., 1915. The Wikipedia article on the crown has an image which clearly shows the iron band allegedly made from one of the nails of the crucifixion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Crown_of_Lombardy
	Last edited by svenax; 1st September 2012 at 03:17 PM.

1st September 2012, 03:16 PM	#207
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 27,256	Originally Posted by pakeha I'm confused, tsig. My standard source for information didn't mention the nails. http://www.godandscience.org/youngea...l#.UEGsXSIXLMx Not directly but they are talking numbers and we are talking numbers so by biblical reasoning we can conclude that they're talking about the same thing.

1st September 2012, 07:38 PM	#208
The Norseman I Void Warranties Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: The Treasure Valley Posts: 3,303	Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader How can we know which of the nails are authentic and which are forgeries? Ask Jesus. He might know.
	__________________ "I have always thought that a wild animal never looks so well as when some obstacle of pronounced durability is between us." "Sticking the flounce is the hardest move in forum gymnastics." -tsig

2nd September 2012, 12:30 AM	#209
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,246	Originally Posted by Nessie I have seen the Holy Lance containing a nail and Reliquary with part of the cross with a nail hole in it that is at the Schatzkammer in Vienna. http://www.visitingvienna.com/sights.../schatzkammer/ But they also claim to have a unicorn's horn, so I was suspicious. Skepticism at it's finest. More Dom for all! Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader ...How can we know which of the nails are authentic and which are forgeries?... What makes you think any of these nails are authentic, PC? I ask in all seriousness and with due respect. The manufacture and sale of 'relics' was quite an industry, you know. http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/a...l_relic_trade/ http://www.answers.com/topic/relic
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,246

3rd September 2012, 01:36 AM	#210
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,604	Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader 20120901.0320 @svenax, #172 This is what is in the book “Awit at Salaysay ng Pasiong Mahal” first published in 1884 on page 204: “At ito ring pakong mahal ang sa dagat binitiwan ang nasa Paris na bayan, sa Templong lubhang mainam ni San Dionisiong banal.” English translation: “And this is also the beloved nail that was dropped into the sea which is in the town of Paris, in a Temple that is good for the holy Saint Dionysius.” From Wikipedia, Saint Denis (also called Dionysius, Dennis, or Denys) was the Bishop of Paris in the third century AD. He is the patron of Paris, France. The medieval and modern French name “Denis” derives from the ancient name Dionysius. There is in Paris called the Saint Denis Basilica which became the burial place for the kings of France. And so what? Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

3rd September 2012, 01:28 PM	#211
PeaceCrusader Muse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 955	Originally Posted by MRC_Hans And so what? Hans 20120904.0605 @MRC Hans, #210 “Pasiong Mahal” states that there was a Saint Denis (also called in ancient time Dionysius) in Paris, France. A Basilica was erected there in his honor which became the burial place for the kings of France. Just think, why the kings of France have to be buried here. Should the Basilica search for this nail? The book is correct in stating at least two places – Carpentras, France and Milan, Italy. The one in Rome may be a forgery because, first, it is not “octobado” and second, it is not as stated that Saint Helena mixed the nail to make a crown.
PeaceCrusader Muse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 955

3rd September 2012, 02:09 PM	#212
svenax Thinker Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 173	Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader 20120904.0605 @MRC Hans, #210 “Pasiong Mahal” states that there was a Saint Denis (also called in ancient time Dionysius) in Paris, France. A Basilica was erected there in his honor which became the burial place for the kings of France. Just think, why the kings of France have to be buried here. Should the Basilica search for this nail? The book is correct in stating at least two places – Carpentras, France and Milan, Italy. The one in Rome may be a forgery because, first, it is not “octobado” and second, it is not as stated that Saint Helena mixed the nail to make a crown. PC, the Pasiong Mahal is a devotional poem and does not (as far as I understand) make any claims to being divinely inspired or anything. So why are you clinging so much to what it says?

3rd September 2012, 02:14 PM	#213
George152 Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hamilton New Zealand Posts: 2,054	Originally Posted by pakeha Great find! More Dom for all! I notice PC's false medium missed big time with the Milan/Carpentras confusion and PC hasn't reacted to that yet. Yes. Supernatural protection for the military is always a priority. I don't know about ‘living prophet’, but faking, absolutely yes. It's spelt 'profit'
	__________________ Unemployment isn't working

3rd September 2012, 02:24 PM	#214
PeaceCrusader Muse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 955	Originally Posted by pakeha Skepticism at it's finest. More Dom for all! What makes you think any of these nails are authentic, PC? I ask in all seriousness and with due respect. The manufacture and sale of 'relics' was quite an industry, you know. http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/a...l_relic_trade/ http://www.answers.com/topic/relic 20120904.0630 @pakeha, #209 Some of the nails claimed to be authentic by different churches may be forgeries. There are only four nails used in nailing the hands and feet of Jesus to the cross. So there could not be more than four. How can be know the authentic ones? First, the spirit of Ama said that they are “octobado”, eight-sided. I will look for the recording where he said about the nails being “octobado”. I think not all of them are “octobado” because one of them was mixed with the diadem of the Roman Emperor Constantine. I do not know how much was mixed. It may be the whole nail or a portion of the nail. Second, we have a list of places in the book “Pasiong Mahal” where they are – Carpentras, France; Milan, Italy; Rome, Italy; and Paris, France. Carpentras may be Karpentas before. As far as I can remember, Ama confirmed these place. It will be best if we could hear the recording.
PeaceCrusader Muse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 955

3rd September 2012, 02:26 PM	#215
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,580	Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader 20120826.1145 A spirit revealed that four nails were used for the hands and feet of Jesus when He was crucified. The nails were eight-sided, “octobado”. They had been retrieved from Jerusalem by Saint Helena, the mother of Emperor Constantine. It is incredible because the nails made of steel floated on the water and were brought to different places – Karpentas, Rome, Milan, and Paris. Do I believe this? The story is also found at “Awit at salaysay ng Pasiong Mahal” (in Filipino) read and sang during Holy Week in the Philippines. Any comments? 40 acres and a mule Aren't the crucifixion nails still in Jesus?
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

3rd September 2012, 02:58 PM	#216
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,246	Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader 20120904.0605 @MRC Hans, #210 “Pasiong Mahal” states that there was a Saint Denis (also called in ancient time Dionysius) in Paris, France. A Basilica was erected there in his honor which became the burial place for the kings of France. Just think, why the kings of France have to be buried here. Should the Basilica search for this nail? The book is correct in stating at least two places – Carpentras, France and Milan, Italy. The one in Rome may be a forgery because, first, it is not “octobado” and second, it is not as stated that Saint Helena mixed the nail to make a crown. PC, hasn't it sunk in that the relics in Carpentras and Milan claim to be the same nail? The "Pasiong" got it wrong, listing two different relics both claiming to be the nail worked into a bit or bridle. If Ka Apaz has set her seal of approval on this confusion, it merely shows she's a false medium. What is so difficult to understand there? We can take the “octobado” aspect of the authentic relics almost as seriously as the tale of St Evangeline or the wedding day of Reneliniyindi. Originally Posted by George152 It's spelt 'profit' Naughty! A round of Dom for all! Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader ... Some of the nails claimed to be authentic by different churches may be forgeries. There are only four nails used in nailing the hands and feet of Jesus to the cross. So there could not be more than four. How can be know the authentic ones? First, the spirit of Ama said that they are “octobado”, eight-sided. I will look for the recording where he said about the nails being “octobado”. I think not all of them are “octobado” because one of them was mixed with the diadem of the Roman Emperor Constantine. I do not know how much was mixed. It may be the whole nail or a portion of the nail. Whatever Ka Apaz said about the shape of the nails found by Helene, is there any evidence the Romans made 8-sided nails? Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader Second, we have a list of places in the book “Pasiong Mahal” where they are – Carpentras, France; Milan, Italy; Rome, Italy; and Paris, France. Carpentras may be Karpentas before. As far as I can remember, Ama confirmed these place. It will be best if we could hear the recording. PC, that list of places is mistaken. Carpentras and Milan house relics that both claim to be the same nail fashioned into the Emperor's bridle. Do you understand that? Yes, please post up the recording that shows Ka Apaz confirming those places. I'd like to hear them.
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,246	__________________ To a conspiracy theorist, having double standards just means that they have twice as many standards. carlitos

3rd September 2012, 03:16 PM	#217
hurdygurdy Thinker Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Huelva, Spain Posts: 219	Originally Posted by pakeha PC, hasn't it sunk in that the relics in Carpentras and Milan claim to be the same nail? The "Pasiong" got it wrong, listing two different relics both claiming to be the nail worked into a bit or bridle. If Ka Apaz has set her seal of approval on this confusion, it merely shows she's a false medium. What is so difficult to understand there? We can take the “octobado” aspect of the authentic relics almost as seriously as the tale of St Evangeline or the wedding day of Reneliniyindi. Naughty! A round of Dom for all! Whatever Ka Apaz said about the shape of the nails found by Helene, is there any evidence the Romans made 8-sided nails? PC, that list of places is mistaken. Carpentras and Milan house relics that both claim to be the same nail fashioned into the Emperor's bridle. Do you understand that? Yes, please post up the recording that shows Ka Apaz confirming those places. I'd like to hear them. I prophesy that PC will only comprehend the last line of your reply. We will wait and see.

3rd September 2012, 04:00 PM	#218
PeaceCrusader Muse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 955	Originally Posted by svenax PC, the Pasiong Mahal is a devotional poem and does not (as far as I understand) make any claims to being divinely inspired or anything. So why are you clinging so much to what it says? 20120904.0720 @svenax, #212 Ama said that the “Pasiong Mahal” was taken from the Holy Bible. There are 213 pages of poem, five lines, and even rhyming. Also, there maybe Latin words, not Filipino words, which an ordinary person may not know. For example, “Sedes Sapientiae, Tronor, Dominaciones, Virtudes at Potestades, Qualis Paper, talis Filius, talis Espiritus Sanctus, Mulier, quam dedisti mihi, dedit mihi de ligno et comedi, Et erat subditus illis, Haec omnia tibi dabo si cadens adoraveris me, Ecce Agus Dei Qui tollis peccata mundi, Sicut ovisad occisionem ducetur et quasi agnus tondente, se obmutescet, et non apariet os sunm”, etc. There are some details which are not found in the Bible. Examples are the names of the cities where the nails are now, Emperor Constantine, Saint Helena, who John is at the crucifixion of Jesus, the parents of the Blessed Virgin Mary, etc. Most of what is in the book are about the crucifixion and death of Jesus.
PeaceCrusader Muse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 955

3rd September 2012, 04:23 PM	#219
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,343	Regarding octobado, where does this word come from, PC? Is it Filipino? I get the "octo" bit, but googling the whole word only yields PC's posts. What language is it in?
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,343	__________________ It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

3rd September 2012, 05:19 PM	#220
Hokulele Official Nemesis Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Trying to decide whether to set defenses against an army, or against mole rats. Posts: 27,349	Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader Should the Basilica search for this nail? The book is correct in stating at least two places – Carpentras, France and Milan, Italy. The one in Rome may be a forgery because, first, it is not “octobado” and second, it is not as stated that Saint Helena mixed the nail to make a crown. Wait, so if it's not "octobado", it may be a forgery rather than Ka Apaz may have been wrong? PeaceCrusader, you have just made it quite clear why everything you write can be seen as horrendously biased, and why it is obvious that every single one of your claims are now unfalsifiable, and hence useless on a forum dedicated to critical thinking. Bravo.
	__________________ Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" Some person: "Why did you shoot that?" Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" - Tragic Monkey

3rd September 2012, 11:22 PM	#221
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Wiltshire, UK Posts: 4,459	Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader How can be know the authentic ones? First, the spirit of Ama said that they are “octobado”, eight-sided. From which it's safe to deduce that the authentic ones (if any such exist) aren't eight-sided, given how completely and utterly wrong "the spirit of Ama" has proved to be about everything else.
	__________________ "The correct scientific response to anything that is not understood is always to look harder for the explanation, not give up and assume a supernatural cause". David Attenborough.

3rd September 2012, 11:37 PM	#222
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,604	Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader 20120904.0605 @MRC Hans, #210 “Pasiong Mahal” states that there was a Saint Denis (also called in ancient time Dionysius) in Paris, France. A Basilica was erected there in his honor which became the burial place for the kings of France. Just think, why the kings of France have to be buried here. Should the Basilica search for this nail? The book is correct in stating at least two places – Carpentras, France and Milan, Italy. The one in Rome may be a forgery because, first, it is not “octobado” and second, it is not as stated that Saint Helena mixed the nail to make a crown. I repeat: And so what? More clearly: You are quoting from various literature, none of which is in any way validated or backed by independent information. It is, in other words, at the very best, anecdotical, but in practice indistinguishable from fiction. I realize that in your personal opinion, this literature contains the truth; you have made this opinion abundantly clear, and you are entitled to it, however, why do you keep using it as arguments? To the rest of us, it remains entirely unauthoritative, and you might as well be arguing from "Moby Dick". This is a skeptical/scientific forum, and if you want to support your opinions here, you must provide evidence. Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

3rd September 2012, 11:54 PM	#223
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,604	Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader 20120904.0630 @pakeha, #209 Some of the nails claimed to be authentic by different churches may be forgeries. There are only four nails used in nailing the hands and feet of Jesus to the cross. So there could not be more than four. I think we have a failure of communication, here. PeaceCrusader, you are talking to people who don't even necessarily accept that Jesus existed at all, even as a historical person! IF someone was crucified, there would be maximum four nails, that goes without saying (and many would assume there were only three). Here, you write: Quote: Some of the nails claimed to be authentic by different churches may be forgeries. There are only four nails used in nailing the hands and feet of Jesus to the cross. So there could not be more than four. Since there are about 30 claimed nails form the crucifiction on record, some of them not only may be forgeries, they must necessarily be forgeries. So obviously, since there is no plausible provinience for any of them, it is likely that they all are. Quote: How can be know the authentic ones? First, the spirit of Ama said that they are “octobado”, eight-sided. We can't know the authentic ones. Testimony from alleged spirits does not count. There is some historical backing for the notion that such nails may have been octogonal, but we don't even know that with any kind of certainty. Even if it is correct, this knowledge would also have been avialable to forgers, so it means nothing at all. Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

4th September 2012, 01:11 AM	#224
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,246	Originally Posted by AdMan Regarding octobado, where does this word come from, PC? Is it Filipino? I get the "octo" bit, but googling the whole word only yields PC's posts. What language is it in? Octagonal is the proper Spanish for octagonal; 'octobado' sounds like what I would expect an illiterate person to say instead of 'octagonal'. Not, of course, the Holy Spirit.
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,246	__________________ To a conspiracy theorist, having double standards just means that they have twice as many standards. carlitos Last edited by pakeha; 4th September 2012 at 01:15 AM. Reason: musings clarified

4th September 2012, 01:42 AM	#225
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,246	Originally Posted by Pixel42 From which it's safe to deduce that the authentic ones (if any such exist) aren't eight-sided, given how completely and utterly wrong "the spirit of Ama" has proved to be about everything else. I was wondering about all the oddities "the spirit of Ama" has come up with: the nonexistent St Evangeline, the elusive Angelina Imdem and her coffin-ridden home in the UK, the Princess Reneliniyindi and her tragic wedding to Philip I, her parents, the nonexistent Helene Curtis fortune and so on. It occurred to me there may be a connection between the cosmetics industry and Constantine's mum and I may have found it here. What do you think?
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,246	__________________ To a conspiracy theorist, having double standards just means that they have twice as many standards. carlitos

4th September 2012, 08:45 AM	#226
PeaceCrusader Muse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 955	20120905.0045 Here is what the spirit of Ama said on tape E02B from 10:55: Ama: “Nasarte rasiom” sa kanang paa. Sa kaliwang paa, ano? No. No. “Salboloray cabaladoc.” “Salboloray cabaladoc.” All right. Nasaan ngayon ang apat na pakong ito? Nasa Roma, nasa Francia, nasa Milan. Nasaan pa? Ah? At ang isa’y nasaan? Nasaan naroon si ...? Tagasaan si Santa Elenang tinatawag ninyo? Sa Germany Constantino. Sino si Constantino? Ha? English translation: Ama: “Nasarte rasiom” to the right foot. To the left foot, what? No. No. “Salbolray cabaladoc.” Salboloray cabaladoc.” All right. Where are the four nails now? In Rome, in France, in Milan. Where else? Ah? Where is the other one? From where is ...? Where is Saint Helena that you call from? In Germany Constantine. Who is Constantine? Ha? The names of the nails are: “Nasarte rasiom” – right foot, “Salboloray cabaladoc” – left foot. I cannot remember the names of the other two but I have written them down in my red notebook which I cannot find at the moment. Where are the nails now? They are in Rome, in France (maybe he is referring to Paris), and in Milan. All these places are mentioned in “Pasiong Mahal”. The other nail is in Karpentas. Maybe this is the old name. Its name now is Carpentras in France. Saint Helena is from Germany. Maybe Trier.
PeaceCrusader Muse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 955

4th September 2012, 09:13 AM	#227
svenax Thinker Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 173	Delete. Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader Where are the nails now? They are in Rome, in France (maybe he is referring to Paris), and in Milan. All these places are mentioned in “Pasiong Mahal”. The other nail is in Karpentas. Maybe this is the old name. Its name now is Carpentras in France. So? Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader Saint Helena is from Germany. Maybe Trier. Eh, no. Definitely not. Unless you refer to some else than the mother of Constantine the great.
	Last edited by svenax; 4th September 2012 at 09:19 AM. Reason: Delete wrong interpretation.

4th September 2012, 09:27 AM	#228
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,343	Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader The names of the nails are: “Nasarte rasiom” – right foot, “Salboloray cabaladoc” – left foot. I cannot remember the names of the other two but I have written them down in my red notebook Who the heck is supposed to have named these nails, and for what purpose? And do you have any evidence that those names have been used anywhere else and aren't just gibberish made up by the crone?
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,343	__________________ It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

4th September 2012, 09:34 AM	#229
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,246	Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader Here is what the spirit of Ama said on tape E02B from 10:55: Ama: “Nasarte rasiom” sa kanang paa. Sa kaliwang paa, ano? No. No. “Salboloray cabaladoc.” “Salboloray cabaladoc.” All right. Nasaan ngayon ang apat na pakong ito? Nasa Roma, nasa Francia, nasa Milan. Nasaan pa? Ah? At ang isa’y nasaan? Nasaan naroon si ...? Tagasaan si Santa Elenang tinatawag ninyo? Sa Germany Constantino. Sino si Constantino? Ha? English translation: Ama: “Nasarte rasiom” to the right foot. To the left foot, what? No. No. “Salbolray cabaladoc.” Salboloray cabaladoc.” All right. Where are the four nails now? In Rome, in France, in Milan. Where else? Ah? Where is the other one? From where is ...? Where is Saint Helena that you call from? In Germany Constantine. Who is Constantine? Ha? The names of the nails are: “Nasarte rasiom” – right foot, “Salboloray cabaladoc” – left foot. I cannot remember the names of the other two but I have written them down in my red notebook which I cannot find at the moment. Where are the nails now? They are in Rome, in France (maybe he is referring to Paris), and in Milan. All these places are mentioned in “Pasiong Mahal”. The other nail is in Karpentas. Maybe this is the old name. Its name now is Carpentras in France. Saint Helena is from Germany. Maybe Trier. That's quite a remarkable transcription, PC. It raises a lot of questions with me, though. To be honest, it really looks as though you 'fish' for answers and Ka Apaz obliges within her limits and with a dash of rudimentary glossolalia to round things off. Those names for the nails, for example, sound more like glossolalia than real names. I'd be glad to shown I'm wrong, though. St Helene is from Germany? Are you sure about that? Just out of curiosity- in these seances, does the spirit of ama ever quote anything but the Pasiong and the KJV?
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,246	__________________ To a conspiracy theorist, having double standards just means that they have twice as many standards. carlitos

4th September 2012, 11:34 AM	#230
hurdygurdy Thinker Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Huelva, Spain Posts: 219	Originally Posted by PeaceCrusader 20120905.0045 Here is what the spirit of Ama said on tape E02B from 10:55: Ama: “Nasarte rasiom” sa kanang paa. Sa kaliwang paa, ano? No. No. “Salboloray cabaladoc.” “Salboloray cabaladoc.” All right. Nasaan ngayon ang apat na pakong ito? Nasa Roma, nasa Francia, nasa Milan. Nasaan pa? Ah? At ang isa’y nasaan? Nasaan naroon si ...? Tagasaan si Santa Elenang tinatawag ninyo? Sa Germany Constantino. Sino si Constantino? Ha? English translation: Ama: “Nasarte rasiom” to the right foot. To the left foot, what? No. No. “Salbolray cabaladoc.” Salboloray cabaladoc.” All right. Where are the four nails now? In Rome, in France, in Milan. Where else? Ah? Where is the other one? From where is ...? Where is Saint Helena that you call from? In Germany Constantine. Who is Constantine? Ha? The names of the nails are: “Nasarte rasiom” – right foot, “Salboloray cabaladoc” – left foot. I cannot remember the names of the other two but I have written them down in my red notebook which I cannot find at the moment. Where are the nails now? They are in Rome, in France (maybe he is referring to Paris), and in Milan. All these places are mentioned in “Pasiong Mahal”. The other nail is in Karpentas. Maybe this is the old name. Its name now is Carpentras in France. Saint Helena is from Germany. Maybe Trier. A round of Dom for all!

4th September 2012, 12:00 PM	#231
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,246	And another to celebrate how right you were. Have you thought of trying for the million dollar challenge?
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,246	__________________ To a conspiracy theorist, having double standards just means that they have twice as many standards. carlitos

4th September 2012, 12:39 PM	#232
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by Beerina Nails of Destiny Is there any special interaction between the Nails of Destiny and explicitly evil artifacts, such as the Hand of Vecna or Sceptre of Asmodeus? Or is that left to DM discretion?
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

4th September 2012, 09:12 PM	#233
Astreja Springy Goddess Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 977	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Is there any special interaction between the Nails of Destiny and explicitly evil artifacts, such as the Hand of Vecna or Sceptre of Asmodeus? Or is that left to DM discretion? Well, the alleged nails appear to be at least +5 versus demigods. Funny how the nails are still kicking around in religious shrines while there's no physical trace of the individual who was allegedly slain by them. On a related matter, it would be interesting to run a DNA analysis on these artifacts. Hypothetically there should be traces of hemoglobin, and that hemoglobin should be identical from nail to nail. Who knows? Maybe we could even clone ourselves a brand new Jesus.

4th September 2012, 10:14 PM	#234
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,332	Originally Posted by Astreja On a related matter, it would be interesting to run a DNA analysis on these artifacts. Hypothetically there should be traces of hemoglobin, and that hemoglobin should be identical from nail to nail. Who knows? Maybe we could even clone ourselves a brand new Jesus. Been thought of already by a bunch of pranksters called "Christians for the Cloning of Jesus". See http://sniggle.net/godhoax.php. They propose the "blood" from the Turin Shroud as DNA source. But surely some transubstantiated communion wine would do equally well.
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,332

4th September 2012, 10:46 PM	#235
Brainache Nasty Brutish and Tall Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Behind you! Posts: 9,182	Originally Posted by Craig B Been thought of already by a bunch of pranksters called "Christians for the Cloning of Jesus". See http://sniggle.net/godhoax.php. They propose the "blood" from the Turin Shroud as DNA source. But surely some transubstantiated communion wine would do equally well. I also read a Novel based on this idea. http://www.harpercollins.com.au/book...=9780207196096
	__________________ Words cannot convey the vertiginous retching horror that enveloped me as I lost consciousness. - W. S. Burroughs Invert the prominent diaphragm!!! Expect from others what you did to them - Seneca.