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Old 20th November 2012, 02:50 PM   #601
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
My point was a large portion of those 'smartphone sales' won't be easily monetized because they won't really be used any differently than a 'dumbphone' or 'featurephone'.

Do you disagree ?
Why should I?

What has that got to do with the comparative numbers of iPhone vs. Samsung smartphones chosen by consumers?

Quote:
And it was in the context of : There is more to being in a good position in the smartphone market than simply sheer numbers/volume of sales.

Do you disagree ?
Why should I?

What has that got to do with the comparative numbers of iPhone vs. Samsung smartphones chosen by consumers?

Are you suggesting that consumers choose the model of phone they want to buy on the basis of whether or not they can be "easily monetized"?

When I go to shop for a new 'smartphone' I'm going to look for one with as many 'features' as I can comfortably afford. This is likely to have little to do with whether I need or use them very much. I'm not going to care whether someone else can "monetize" them or not.

Also SD slot and user replaceable battery. Those aren't 'features', though. They're fundamental, common-sense, basic equipment.

Although they may be hard to "monetize".

Last edited by quadraginta; 20th November 2012 at 02:52 PM.
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Old 20th November 2012, 03:36 PM   #602
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Why should I?

What has that got to do with the comparative numbers of iPhone vs. Samsung smartphones chosen by consumers?


Why should I?

What has that got to do with the comparative numbers of iPhone vs. Samsung smartphones chosen by consumers?

Are you suggesting that consumers choose the model of phone they want to buy on the basis of whether or not they can be "easily monetized"?

When I go to shop for a new 'smartphone' I'm going to look for one with as many 'features' as I can comfortably afford. This is likely to have little to do with whether I need or use them very much. I'm not going to care whether someone else can "monetize" them or not.

Also SD slot and user replaceable battery. Those aren't 'features', though. They're fundamental, common-sense, basic equipment.

Although they may be hard to "monetize".
It has nothing to do with consumer choice, per se. It was a tangential discussion in a thread that has been full of tangential discussions. I already explained why I thought it was relevant.

You might well ask why the number of phones samsung sells is relevant to a discussion thread titles iPhone 5 ?
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Old 20th November 2012, 03:59 PM   #603
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
It has nothing to do with consumer choice, per se. It was a tangential discussion in a thread that has been full of tangential discussions. I already explained why I thought it was relevant.

You might well ask why the number of phones samsung sells is relevant to a discussion thread titled iPhone 5 ?
You might ask the OP:
Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
.....

Just to start the trashtalking off, I would note that we all have been seeing for weeks (unless you completely avoid the news) dozens of articles about how the iPhone 5 will be a "catch up" phone.

Almost every new feature it will have is already on the Samsung phones (and other Android phones).

(Apple needs to hurry up and get those features out there so they can sue Samsung for copying them. )


Anyway, this new article sums up many of those features we have been hearing about:

iPhone 5: 10 Rumored Features You'll Already Find in Competing Devices
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Old 20th November 2012, 07:08 PM   #604
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Originally Posted by chulbert View Post
It matters a great deal to some people, like software developers.
But who cares about that besides the developers?

If you say the end user, does that not make your argument circular??

#1 The end user only uses the phone for an alarm clock.
#2 The developers don't like this so they develop for another platform.
#3 The end user still only uses the phone for an alarm clock...

You may then try to say: Well the end user really wants to buy more software. But if you do that it debunks your entire argument!! It cancels out #1.

If the end user buys a platform that has zero content, that is their prerogative...

I swear this is absolutely the weirdest form of Apple fan damage control I have seen yet.

Let's call this one:

"Apple is still (selling more/the best/enter whatever the Apple fan boy goal is here) because people only use Samsung phones as alarm clocks, therefore developers do not make any apps for Samsung phones."
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Old 20th November 2012, 07:18 PM   #605
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
You might ask the OP:
First of all, it happens in every thread. That's what "I might as well start it off in the OP" means. Also it was clearly lighthearted.

Secondly:

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
You might well ask why the number of phones samsung sells is relevant to a discussion thread titled iPhone 5 ?

That is an absolute joke.

They are their main competition!

Go into US Politics and find me a thread about Democrats that contains no discussion of Republicans. Or vice versa.

Go into Sports and find a thread about the Yankees that contains no discussion of the Red Sox!

So into a video games sub-forum and find a thread about XBOX360 that does not contain discussion of PS3.

Find an Apple PC thread where no-one mentions Windows.

Find an Apple phone thread where no-one mentions Android.

To try and blame me for this happening is ridiculous.

I said in the above post that the "feature phone" argument was the absolutely weirdest Apple fan damage control I have seen yet...

Well this one is probably the saddest.

The "Oh please do not even mention the competition!" argument.
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Old 20th November 2012, 07:24 PM   #606
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OK. Congratulations.
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Old 20th November 2012, 07:32 PM   #607
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
OK. Congratulations.

Well just as long at you admit that it would have happened anyway, whether or not I said anything about the competition in the OP.


Also, just to be fair, I'm going to quote the OP like you did, but yet I am going to highlight the part you didn't.

Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
.....

Just to start the trashtalking off, I would note that we all have been seeing for weeks (unless you completely avoid the news) dozens of articles about how the iPhone 5 will be a "catch up" phone.

Almost every new feature it will have is already on the Samsung phones (and other Android phones).

(Apple needs to hurry up and get those features out there so they can sue Samsung for copying them. )

Anyway, this new article sums up many of those features we have been hearing about:

iPhone 5: 10 Rumored Features You'll Already Find in Competing Devices

As can be clearly seen I was regurgitating what every single article had been saying for weeks leading up to the event. Dozens of articles. You would literally have to have not visited any online news sites any day for weeks to miss seeing at least 1 article do it.

And unlike those articles I had it as an aside at the bottom of my post. The entire first part of the post, which carlitos snipped out, was just the facts.
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Old 21st November 2012, 06:01 AM   #608
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Are you going to respond to post 574 ?

Last edited by TheL8Elvis; 21st November 2012 at 07:52 AM.
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Old 21st November 2012, 07:36 AM   #609
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Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
Well just as long at you admit that it would have happened anyway, whether or not I said anything about the competition in the OP.
I'm not "admitting" anything of the sort. What exactly are you on about? I noted that you mentioned Samsung in the OP. That's it. Your OP clearly taunts "Apple fanbois," which is entirely your prerogative.

Hey L8Elvis, that "574" links to a $299 laptop at MicroCenter.

Last edited by carlitos; 21st November 2012 at 07:37 AM.
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Old 21st November 2012, 07:51 AM   #610
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I'm not "admitting" anything of the sort. What exactly are you on about? I noted that you mentioned Samsung in the OP. That's it. Your OP clearly taunts "Apple fanbois," which is entirely your prerogative.

Hey L8Elvis, that "574" links to a $299 laptop at MicroCenter.
ROTFL ... I was helping my sister shop for a cheap laptop. Thanks, I will fix it :-)
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Old 21st November 2012, 06:48 PM   #611
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I'm not "admitting" anything of the sort. What exactly are you on about?

It's a very simple question:

Do you admit that the thread (about the iPhone 5) would have started discussing the competition (Android phones) with or without me doing it first it in the OP?

If you refuse to answer that, so be it.

On top of that, the end part of the OP was clearly a joke about that very thing. And about how every article leading up to the release of the iPhone 5 was doing it as well.

You trying to turn that into me having anything to do with "why the number of phones samsung sells is relevant to a discussion thread titled iPhone 5" is about as silly as me being at fault for bringing up Republicans in a thread about Democrats in the OP of a thread in US Politics.

Just imagine if someone 600 posts in that hypothetical US Politics thread asks you "why are the Republicans relevant in a discussion thread about Democrats".

And then instead of answering that person:

"Because they are the main competition, obviously."

You instead chose to answer that person:

"Why don't you ask the OP, they started it!!"
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Old 22nd November 2012, 09:15 AM   #612
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I have no idea why you care which phone is better or more popular or why you mentioned Samsung in a post about iPhone 5. I was kind of interested in how many active smartphones there are because that matters to my professional life. I sort of care about the new iOS, because I use it every day.

It seems very important to you to argue with someone. That someone won't be me anymore.
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Old 22nd November 2012, 11:16 AM   #613
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Originally Posted by chulbert View Post
It matters a great deal to some people, like software developers. If you want to look at the potential market of smartphone users then you need to refine the raw unit sales numbers using the usage numbers. It's the reason iOS is still the first choice platform for new development.

But I'll let this tangent lie to avoid further derail.
But it isn't - it depends entirely on the app, the market the developers want to reach and so on. For example a keyboard app.
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Old 22nd November 2012, 09:59 PM   #614
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Can someone help with an iPhone5 question? I don't want to start a thread if I can help it.

I have an iPad3 which happily recognises my home wifi network, and I'm posting on it now. Yet when my iPhone bothers to recognise the network (it can take minutes) it always asks for a password. And drops out regularly, which the iPad never does.

Am I doing something monumentally stupid? Wouldn't be the first time.

Oh jeez, it's just recognised the network and the password and is now telling me it can't join the network. Help!
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Old 22nd November 2012, 10:09 PM   #615
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Can someone help with an iPhone5 question? I don't want to start a thread if I can help it.

I have an iPad3 which happily recognises my home wifi network, and I'm posting on it now. Yet when my iPhone bothers to recognise the network (it can take minutes) it always asks for a password. And drops out regularly, which the iPad never does.

Am I doing something monumentally stupid? Wouldn't be the first time.

Oh jeez, it's just recognised the network and the password and is now telling me it can't join the network. Help!
Have you updated to the latest version of IOS 6?
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Old 23rd November 2012, 02:09 AM   #616
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I have no idea why you care which phone is better or more popular or why you mentioned Samsung in a post about iPhone 5. I was kind of interested in how many active smartphones there are because that matters to my professional life. I sort of care about the new iOS, because I use it every day.

It seems very important to you to argue with someone. That someone won't be me anymore.

OK so instead of answering the question:

Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
Do you admit that the thread (about the iPhone 5) would have started discussing the competition (Android phones) with or without me doing it first it in the OP?

Which would give us insight into why you did what you did:

Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
Just imagine if someone 600 posts in that hypothetical US Politics thread asks you "why are the Republicans relevant in a discussion thread about Democrats".

And then instead of answering that person:

"Because they are the main competition, obviously."

You instead chose to answer that person:

"Why don't you ask the OP, they started it!!"

You chose instead of accusing me of "just wanting to argue"??

Is asking you to answer a simple question arguing?

Is asking you to help explain why you told someone an answer that seems to me to be illogical arguing??

Is there a clear cut line between a conversation and having an argument, or is it, in fact, an overlapping range? Because the post of mine directly above yours, that you were responding to, sure reads like it is trying to be quite serious to me.


I'm sorry but I'm not just going to not post if someone gives someone else an illogical answer especially if it pertains to me.

Just like I'm not going to just not post if someone posts rediculous spin, especially if it is not true. Be it if the spin is for or against Apple, Samsung, Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, etc.
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Old 23rd November 2012, 09:41 AM   #617
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
Have you updated to the latest version of IOS 6?
That's the first thing I checked, and yes.

It looks like I'll have to reboot to factory settings, but still can't understand why the iPad accesses wifi brilliantly and the iPhone doesn't.
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Old 23rd November 2012, 10:33 AM   #618
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
That's the first thing I checked, and yes.

It looks like I'll have to reboot to factory settings, but still can't understand why the iPad accesses wifi brilliantly and the iPhone doesn't.
Will your iPhone connect to a public connection? If it will then your router probably needs a reset.
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Old 23rd November 2012, 11:04 AM   #619
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Yeah, unplug both your modem and router. Plug in the modem first, then after that's up and has the internet light on, then turn on your router.
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Old 23rd November 2012, 11:42 AM   #620
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
I am. Since I have no intentions of going to Dubai, I'll take your word for it.
Great thing about theee phones is you dont have to. Thats kinda the point.

Quote:
Even if you don't many people do, so it's a win.
Not if the bloody map doesnt work, The turn by turn is a bit of a waste of time if the phone doent know where you want to go.

Google maps were awesome wherever I travelled. Apple Maps sucks in many of them.
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Old 23rd November 2012, 07:56 PM   #621
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lionking,
Are you using WPA2 for your wireless security settings? I've seen an oddness with the iPhone 5 and iOS6 on WPA2. The latest update was supposed to address that issue. Maybe temporarily trying a different setting just to test it.
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Old 24th November 2012, 07:59 AM   #622
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
Great thing about theee phones is you dont have to. Thats kinda the point.



Not if the bloody map doesnt work, The turn by turn is a bit of a waste of time if the phone doent know where you want to go.

Google maps were awesome wherever I travelled. Apple Maps sucks in many of them.
My point was apple maps has seemingly forced Google to give iOS users turn by turn - something they had previously withheld from iOS. So that is a win for end users.
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Old 25th November 2012, 05:49 AM   #623
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
My point was apple maps has seemingly forced Google to give iOS users turn by turn - something they had previously withheld from iOS. So that is a win for end users.

Why did they do that?
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Old 25th November 2012, 07:40 AM   #624
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Why did they do that?
I don't know. Presumably to maintain an advantage on mapping with android devices.

http://allthingsd.com/20120926/apple...ed-directions/

... Spoken turn-by-turn navigation has been a free service offered through Google’s Android mobile OS for a few years now. But it was never part of the deal that brought Google’s Maps to iOS. And sources say Apple very much wanted it to be.
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Old 25th November 2012, 04:20 PM   #625
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The google map thingie isn't quite the same, as it won't integrate into the rest of the iOS, though, right? Like when an address is highlighted in siri or an internet page or my contacts or whatever, it won't default to google, will it?
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Old 25th November 2012, 07:13 PM   #626
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
The google map thingie isn't quite the same, as it won't integrate into the rest of the iOS, though, right? Like when an address is highlighted in siri or an internet page or my contacts or whatever, it won't default to google, will it?
Since there is not yet a google maps for iOS 6, that remains to be seen.

Based on history, no would be a safe answer, but apple has acknowledged their maps have problems, so they may allow a choice of default map provider. We will have to wait and see.
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Old 25th November 2012, 09:17 PM   #627
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
I don't know. Presumably to maintain an advantage on mapping with android devices.

http://allthingsd.com/20120926/apple...ed-directions/

... Spoken turn-by-turn navigation has been a free service offered through Google’s Android mobile OS for a few years now. But it was never part of the deal that brought Google’s Maps to iOS. And sources say Apple very much wanted it to be.

Judging from the rest of the article you linked to, Google wasn't the only one maneuvering for advantage or being intransigent.

Maybe it wasn't entirely one-sided.
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Old 26th November 2012, 01:38 AM   #628
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Judging from the rest of the article you linked to, Google wasn't the only one maneuvering for advantage or being intransigent.

Maybe it wasn't entirely one-sided.

Exactly. Apple wanted it basically for free. Google, rightly, said no to that. Does anyone think that if the positions were reversed Apple would have acted any differently?


Quote:
But according to people familiar with Google’s thinking, the search giant, which had invested massive sums in creating that data and views it as a key feature of Android, wasn’t willing to simply hand it over to a competing platform.

And if there were terms under which it might have agreed to do so, Apple wasn’t offering them.
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Old 26th November 2012, 06:22 AM   #629
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Judging from the rest of the article you linked to, Google wasn't the only one maneuvering for advantage or being intransigent.

Maybe it wasn't entirely one-sided.
Way to knock down that strawman. I don't recall saying there was only one side, apple did no wrong, or anything similar.

Last edited by TheL8Elvis; 26th November 2012 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 26th November 2012, 06:25 AM   #630
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Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
Exactly. Apple wanted it basically for free. Google, rightly, said no to that. Does anyone think that if the positions were reversed Apple would have acted any differently?
I hilited the part you made up.
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Old 26th November 2012, 07:12 AM   #631
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Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
Exactly. Apple wanted it basically for free. Google, rightly, said no to that. Does anyone think that if the positions were reversed Apple would have acted any differently?
I think it had far more to do with Apple's control over its own core technologies and its relationship with Google than it did with the terms of an agreement. Remember that Maps would have been in development for years before it debuted.
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Old 26th November 2012, 08:50 AM   #632
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Originally Posted by chulbert View Post
I think it had far more to do with Apple's control over its own core technologies and its relationship with Google than it did with the terms of an agreement. Remember that Maps would have been in development for years before it debuted.

Did you even read that article? It claims that Apple wanted it.
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Old 26th November 2012, 01:27 PM   #633
chulbert
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Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
Did you even read that article? It claims that Apple wanted it.
Apple no-doubt wanted it; I'm not disputing that. I'm just emphasizing that Google's proposal of greater control over features and branding was at the heart of the breakup. Along with their souring relationship in general.

Maps is a core technology of smartphones and no company can abide their primary competitor being their source of a core technology.
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Old 26th November 2012, 01:31 PM   #634
TheL8Elvis
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Originally Posted by chulbert View Post
Apple no-doubt wanted it; I'm not disputing that. I'm just emphasizing that Google's proposal of greater control over features and branding was at the heart of the breakup. Along with their souring relationship in general.

Maps is a core technology of smartphones and no company can abide their primary competitor being their source of a core technology.
Now if we can just find the part of the article where it said they wanted it for free ...
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Old 26th November 2012, 08:13 PM   #635
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Way to knock down that strawman. I don't recall saying there was only one side, apple did no wrong, or anything similar.

I never suggested you did. Whose straw man would that be?

You cited the link in an effort to bolster your contention that Google withheld 'turn-by-turn' from Apple in an effort to maintain a market advantage.

The article you cited suggests that a more accurate explanation is that Apple couldn't come to a mutually satisfactory agreement with Google over the conditions for using the technology and database.

Those aren't the same thing.
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Old 27th November 2012, 06:23 AM   #636
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I never suggested you did. Whose straw man would that be?

You cited the link in an effort to bolster your contention that Google withheld 'turn-by-turn' from Apple in an effort to maintain a market advantage.

The article you cited suggests that a more accurate explanation is that Apple couldn't come to a mutually satisfactory agreement with Google over the conditions for using the technology and database.

Those aren't the same thing.
Requiring iPhone users to look directly at handsets for directions and manually move through each step — while Android users enjoyed native voice-guided instructions — put Apple at a clear disadvantage in the mobile space. And having chosen Google as its original mapping partner, the iPhone maker was now in a position where an archrival was calling the shots on functionality important to the iOS maps feature set.

And this caused Apple — which typically enjoys very tight control over its products — no end of philosophical discomfort, sources say. Apple pushed Google hard to provide the data it needed to bring voice-guided navigation to iOS. But according to people familiar with Google’s thinking, the search giant, which had invested massive sums in creating that data and views it as a key feature of Android, wasn’t willing to simply hand it over to a competing platform.
And if there were terms under which it might have agreed to do so, Apple wasn’t offering them.


I read that as saying Google knew voice-turn-by-turn was a huge advantage, and was not going to act as a 'partner' with Apple and let them have it for reasonable terms.

The fact that Apple couldn't come to a mutually satisfactory agreement with Google says nothing about whether either side actually made a reasonable attempt to negotiate a fair deal. And I can't see how it would have been to Googles advantage to offer a 'fair deal'. Do you ?

Which is pragmatically the same as withholding it in order to keep a market advantage.
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Old 27th November 2012, 11:42 AM   #637
quadraginta
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Requiring iPhone users to look directly at handsets for directions and manually move through each step — while Android users enjoyed native voice-guided instructions — put Apple at a clear disadvantage in the mobile space. And having chosen Google as its original mapping partner, the iPhone maker was now in a position where an archrival was calling the shots on functionality important to the iOS maps feature set.

And this caused Apple — which typically enjoys very tight control over its products — no end of philosophical discomfort, sources say. Apple pushed Google hard to provide the data it needed to bring voice-guided navigation to iOS. But according to people familiar with Google’s thinking, the search giant, which had invested massive sums in creating that data and views it as a key feature of Android, wasn’t willing to simply hand it over to a competing platform.
And if there were terms under which it might have agreed to do so, Apple wasn’t offering them.

I read that as saying Google knew voice-turn-by-turn was a huge advantage, and was not going to act as a 'partner' with Apple and let them have it for reasonable terms.

The fact that Apple couldn't come to a mutually satisfactory agreement with Google says nothing about whether either side actually made a reasonable attempt to negotiate a fair deal. And I can't see how it would have been to Googles advantage to offer a 'fair deal'. Do you ?

Which is pragmatically the same as withholding it in order to keep a market advantage.

One could also say that it is pragmatically the same as Apple wanting it without having to pay for it.
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Old 27th November 2012, 11:53 AM   #638
chulbert
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I never suggested you did. Whose straw man would that be?

You cited the link in an effort to bolster your contention that Google withheld 'turn-by-turn' from Apple in an effort to maintain a market advantage.

The article you cited suggests that a more accurate explanation is that Apple couldn't come to a mutually satisfactory agreement with Google over the conditions for using the technology and database.

Those aren't the same thing.
I think it depends on the terms. Google may not have technically said no but it may have demanded terms so outrageous that Apple would never concede, which is functionally the same thing. For example, Google may have feared anti-trust repercussions if they outright said no, so they asked for the farm in return.

Now I'm not saying that's what happened but I don't think your conclusion is justified. Sometimes saying no and making an outrageous offer are effectively the same thing.
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Old 27th November 2012, 12:46 PM   #639
quadraginta
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Originally Posted by chulbert View Post
I think it depends on the terms. Google may not have technically said no but it may have demanded terms so outrageous that Apple would never concede, which is functionally the same thing. For example, Google may have feared anti-trust repercussions if they outright said no, so they asked for the farm in return.

Now I'm not saying that's what happened but I don't think your conclusion is justified. Sometimes saying no and making an outrageous offer are effectively the same thing.

I didn't have a conclusion. I was responding to TheL8Elvis's conjecture with an alternative suggested by the article he cited.
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Old 27th November 2012, 12:57 PM   #640
TheL8Elvis
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I didn't have a conclusion. I was responding to TheL8Elvis's conjecture with an alternative suggested by the article he cited.
Quote:
One could also say that it is pragmatically the same as Apple wanting it without having to pay for it.
Appears to be a conclusion. Is it not a conclusion, but just random information you pulled from the ether ?

I backed up my 'conjecture' with information from the article I originally linked to. You appear to have just pulled things out of thin air.
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