Dr Phil promotes "Satanic Ritual Abuse" conspiracy theory

[Charlie Wilkes]

Originally Posted by JM85

Oh wow; it's interesting that Internal Family Systems was brought up in this topic. I had a therapist who was into that. It involved talking to different "parts" of yourself. You acknowledged them, asked them what purpose they served, and asked them to step back. I always thought this was a metaphor, and didn't know the "parts" were thought to be literal, or represented different personalities. I have Schwartz book on Internal Family Systems, because it was recommended by this therapist. Here's an excerpt.

"Who are you at your core? The most wonderful discovery I have made is that as you do this work you realize that what I'll call your Self is your True Self. I find that as people focus on-- and in the process of doing that, separate from -- their extreme emotions and thoughts they spontaneously manifest qualities that make for good leadership internally and externally. "

From Internal Family Systems Model by Richard C. Schwartz, Ph.D.

Glib, gushy psychobabble. If this guy wants to hawk books on a late-night infomercial, I suppose he should be allowed to do that. But if he is holding himself out to be a professional, treating patients, and convincing them they have repressed memory of sexual abuse... that's a real problem.

[Orphia Nay]

Originally Posted by TsuDhoNimh

This might be relevant:
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...alse-memories/

It's REALLY easy to get people to remember what never happened.

Thanks for that link.

I see a negative comment at the bottom by "kary h":

"A couple of problems with this. Research shows it is almost impossible to plant a traumatic memory in someone. Loftus’ work has been heavily critiqued, misapplied to traumatic memory and ethics complaints have been filed against her. Search for “Lost in a shopping mall – A breach of professional ethics” to find more information on Loftus."

Firstly, the article was urging people NOT to try to instil traumatic memories.

And searching for “Lost in a shopping mall – A breach of professional ethics” led me to Wikipedia, where I found a telling sentence:

"Loftus also accuses Crook of writing the article as part of a long series of efforts to discredit her integrity as a researcher and her work".

As I suspected, the "heavy critique" of Loftus' work is by those who probably implant false memories or rely heavily on recovered memories.

ETA: Anyone know if any of these ethics complaints filed against Loftus were ever upheld in court?

[Rakarek]

Is the general consensus amongst people here that Dissociative Identity Disorder doesn't exist at all? Places like Psychforums.com are full of people who claim to have the disorder and describe symptoms that are hard to find on other illnesses, for example a poster called ManyShadesofMe described the following symptoms:

Quote:

One more question. I was triggered into a switch with my verbally abusive one a couple weeks ago. I laid down on the couch hoping she would go back in....slowly she did. But, I had my feet on my husbands lap and my left foot was normal, but my right one was swollen and very hot...same with my hands too. I couldn't feel the difference unless I touched the hot foot with the cold foot. After I felt she was gone, my right side was no longer swollen and normal temperature, but I felt freezing. Between this, and my numb and tingly feeling, my husband is worried about heart problems. I'm 27 and Dr says no heart problems, so I'm pretty sure this is DID related. I am curious if anyone else has experienced these things though!

When googling about having one part of the body cold and the other one hot at the same time, I only came up with Michael Jackson describing his condition by saying: "one half of body hot, one half is cold" few days before his death and the SRA advocate and the Christian conspiracy theorist Fritz Springmeier claiming the following in his 1996 book about mind control:

Quote:

It is clear from the final results that Monarch slaves have programming which can carry out the following functions:

* control the pulse rate and heart beat

* control the body’s temperature

* control the temperature of individual body parts or sides of the body, such as the right side of the body might get hot, and the left side of the body get ice cold. Fritz has observed this by touching the left and right sides of a victim who was burning hot on the right and ice cold on the left.

Is there any known medical condition that could cause similar hot and cold temperature change-feelings without the mind control part? Apparently Demerol withdrawal can cause "hot and cold symptoms" so that was used to explain the Jackson case, though nowhere I could find is it mentioned that the withdrawal could cause those symptoms simultaneously in different parts of body. Therapists may be able to create some kind of multiple personalities by the power of suggestion, but I don't think they're able to cause symptoms like that.

[xterra]

I am not on Facebook. Can someone please describe the status of the skeptic group that was formed by JREFers there?

Thanks.

[Orphia Nay]

Originally Posted by xterra

I am not on Facebook. Can someone please describe the status of the skeptic group that was formed by JREFers there?

Thanks.

There are 330 members so far. We have victims, family members, psychologists, lawyers, authors, and activists. There are new posts every day, and we've had many long discussions.

For myself, I'm getting to know a lot of different people, and learning a lot.

[Orphia Nay]

Originally Posted by Rakarek

Is the general consensus amongst people here that Dissociative Identity Disorder doesn't exist at all? Places like Psychforums.com are full of people who claim to have the disorder and describe symptoms that are hard to find on other illnesses, for example a poster called ManyShadesofMe described the following symptoms:



When googling about having one part of the body cold and the other one hot at the same time, I only came up with Michael Jackson describing his condition by saying: "one half of body hot, one half is cold" few days before his death and the SRA advocate and the Christian conspiracy theorist Fritz Springmeier claiming the following in his 1996 book about mind control:



Is there any known medical condition that could cause similar hot and cold temperature change-feelings without the mind control part? Apparently Demerol withdrawal can cause "hot and cold symptoms" so that was used to explain the Jackson case, though nowhere I could find is it mentioned that the withdrawal could cause those symptoms simultaneously in different parts of body. Therapists may be able to create some kind of multiple personalities by the power of suggestion, but I don't think they're able to cause symptoms like that.

First you have to consider whether these reports of different temperature body parts are actually true. The second one is a bald assertion, and can be dismissed. The first woman admits, "I zone out a lot" and "im feeling very disconnected, numb, rubbery, unreal, panicky, scared, resistant, avoidant, my head feels tingly and heavy, my legs dont feel attached to my body, everything seems 'fuzzy'".

I don't think hers is a credible report.

[Altus]

Originally Posted by Rakarek

Is the general consensus amongst people here that Dissociative Identity Disorder doesn't exist at all? Places like Psychforums.com are full of people who claim to have the disorder and describe symptoms that are hard to find on other illnesses...

If you look at a great deal of the "research" that was done on this disorder, it traces back to a small group of psychiatrists who were thinking they were seeing symptoms in their patients while using drugs, sodium pentothal and hypnosis. A good number of them were sued for malpractice and lost. At that time the group changed from the ISSMPD (International Society for the Study of Multiple Personality Disorder) to the ISSTD (International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation) and had the diagnosis changed from MPD (multiple personality disorder) to DID. The trauma aspect was also emphasized.

What is interesting is even when the APA made statements against the very techniques that supported research for the diagnosis...drugs, hypnosis, etc., none of that research was pulled and the diagnosis stood. It's interesting that the APA working group the last round was headed by a doctor whose father treated Sybil and who used hypnosis himself to access "alters". http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/12...uded-in-dsm-v/

Symptoms described on a chat board may well be instances of cognitive bias by a therapist, patient or both. Patients are told things like, staring out windows are symptoms of DID, normal forgetting, some have even more esoteric and bizarre explanations, such as color preferences, eye changes, etc. There seems to be a great deal of anecdotal sharing but very little research that any of these "symptoms" are in any way connected to DID.

The early research that underlies the diagnosis and has been published is questionable at best because very many of the methods used are case studies by practitioners employing ethically questionable means of "treating" patients, including Cornelia Wilbur, Sybil's doctor. Bennett Braun was stripped of his license after his therapy nearly killed a woman but his research stands.

It has been proposed whether the diagnosis would even make it into the DSM today if it were initially proposed at this time as opposed to holding a grandfathered status supported by powerful practitioners in the APA who have engaged in questionable therapies in the past. There are many professionals and researchers who think it should be removed because of its lack of evidence and its potential to harm.

[xterra]

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

First you have to consider whether these reports of different temperature body parts are actually true. The second one is a bald assertion, and can be dismissed. The first woman admits, "I zone out a lot" and "im feeling very disconnected, numb, rubbery, unreal, panicky, scared, resistant, avoidant, my head feels tingly and heavy, my legs dont feel attached to my body, everything seems 'fuzzy'".

I don't think hers is a credible report.

Orphia,

I don't have any trouble believing that she is having these symptoms.

The question is the cause, or what someone claims is the cause.

Is this a bad case of the 'flu or pneumonia, or is it something else? If so, what?

xterra

PS Thanks for the report on the Facebook group.

[Orphia Nay]

Putting aside the fact that I don't believe the report is credible, there are probably numerous explanations for the different body temperatures. My first guess is circulation problems. How was she sitting? Is she a smoker? Overweight? Anaemic? Heart problems?
I'm not a doctor, and I'm sure people with even a smidgen of medical knowledge could think of more reasons than me.

[Stellafane]

Originally Posted by Rakarek

...Is there any known medical condition that could cause similar hot and cold temperature change-feelings without the mind control part?

For me, the question has a bit more depth to it: How can these feelings be caused even with the "mind control part"? In other words, what sort of mind-control mechanism could produce these symptoms, and what is the evidence for it? It isn't enough to dismiss other causes; one must also prove that some sort of mind-control phenomenon exists that can do this. Absent that, the theory that it's mind control is no more supported than it's demonic possession or space aliens -- or leprechauns for that matter.

[Rakarek]

Originally Posted by Stellafane

For me, the question has a bit more depth to it: How can these feelings be caused even with the "mind control part"? In other words, what sort of mind-control mechanism could produce these symptoms, and what is the evidence for it? It isn't enough to dismiss other causes; one must also prove that some sort of mind-control phenomenon exists that can do this. Absent that, the theory that it's mind control is no more supported than it's demonic possession or space aliens -- or leprechauns for that matter.

Here's the source for the SRA thing, titled "Science of Body Programming.

I don't know how much of the claims made there is really science though, as they indeed get into demonic possession and other woo.

[Stellafane]

Originally Posted by Rakarek

Here's the source for the SRA thing, titled "Science of Body Programming.

I don't know how much of the claims made there is really science though, as they indeed get into demonic possession and other woo.

I'm afraid the rest of it doesn't appear to qualify much as "science" either. In the first paragraph they make the exceedingly dubious claim that deliberately scarring one's brain stem results in one becoming a genius with a photographic memory, likening the process to weightlifters building up muscle mass. (Don't try this at home, kids.) A quick glance through the rest of the piece turns up equally fanciful claims. I suspect that even if one were to ignore the demonic possession parts, this material would have little or no scientific validity.

ETA: Just did a quick peek at the rest of the site where this is posted. Holy moly!!

[Professor Yaffle]

Anxiety can cause temperature changes as well as heightened awareness of ones sensations. This combined with the fact that different parts of the body are often different temperatures (for example I often get a cold mouse hand while the other one is warm), is enough to explain the reported experiences.

ETA That link is nutso!

[Orphia Nay]

Originally Posted by Rakarek

Here's the source for the SRA thing, titled "Science of Body Programming.

"In order for the Illuminati to create alters which are highly intuitive and which are able to access the higher demonic spheres, they need to shut down the logic hemisphere."

Well, you can't argue with that!

[Rakarek]

Is Valerie Sinason using hypnosis on her patients? I'm wondering cause one of the "alters" of Kim Noble made a painting depicting Satanic abuse and the tree of life from the jewish mysticism Kabbalah, which was claimed to be important in SRA mind control in Corydon Hammond's infamous 1992 Greenbaum speech. Noble claims that her core persona(or whatever) knows nothing of Kabbalah. I'm wondering if Sinason or some other therapist hypnotized Noble and showed her the Tree of Life picture, perhaps creating a false memory of abuse featuring it.

[Stellafane]

Originally Posted by Rakarek

Is Valerie Sinason using hypnosis on her patients? I'm wondering cause one of the "alters" of Kim Noble made a painting depicting Satanic abuse and the tree of life from the jewish mysticism Kabbalah, which was claimed to be important in SRA mind control in Corydon Hammond's infamous 1992 Greenbaum speech. Noble claims that her core persona(or whatever) knows nothing of Kabbalah. I'm wondering if Sinason or some other therapist hypnotized Noble and showed her the Tree of Life picture, perhaps creating a false memory of abuse featuring it.

I don't know the answer to the bolded part, but there's too many unsupported claims for me to consider the question meaningful. For example, if Ms. Noble had previously seen the "tree of life" symbol before she drew it, the mystery vanishes. We have only her word that she didn't, and even if she's telling the truth as she believes it it's possible she saw the image and forgot, and subsequently drew it out of context. Further, the Kabbalah has nothing whatsoever to do with Satan worship, contrary to what some SRA proponents may claim. So a lot of stuff has to be sorted out before I'm interested in addressing the question about whether or not hypnosis was involved.

[Checkmite]

I'm a little confused myself about when or how Jewish mysticism became analogous to or an integral part of satanism.

But I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, considering that Thanksgiving and Washington's Birthday were listed as satanic holidays in an earlier-linked website.

[Hellbound]

Originally Posted by Checkmite

I'm a little confused myself about when or how Jewish mysticism became analogous to or an integral part of satanism.

But I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, considering that Thanksgiving and Washington's Birthday were listed as satanic holidays in an earlier-linked website.

The view of the average American Xian seems to be that any symbol which isn't Christian is associated with Satan worship. I still recall receiving a flyer from our school about how to recognize Satan worship (bible belt during the panic years). It included the Egyptian Ankh; five, six, and eight pointed stars; several symbols used for Catholic Saints; the Fur de Lance; and others (I can't recall them all). Consdiering that a lot of the pushing for this type of thing comes from religious groups, most of them Protestant Xian oriented, it makes a certain kind of sense that these symbols from other religions would be grouped as "evil".

[Rakarek]

What's up with these DID patients saying they're retreating to "inner systems" or "inner worlds" where they can communicate with their alters or whatever, which the SRA advocates claim are programmed to them by the cultists(Alice in Wonderland and Wizard of Oz inner systems seem popular ones). Are all those people on forums lying about their symptoms, or does some other medical condition explain the feeling of dissociating to an imaginary world? Don't think they're all on drugs.

Is it even scientifically possible for that kind of inner worlds to exist inside a person's head? Here's a Psychforums thread where they discuss the subject. Seems pretty far fetched to be real for me. Especially when looking at their other posts, those who claim to have inner worlds also talk about having been sex slaves...

[Dismember]

Originally Posted by Rakarek

What's up with these DID patients saying they're retreating to "inner systems" or "inner worlds" where they can communicate with their alters or whatever, which the SRA advocates claim are programmed to them by the cultists(Alice in Wonderland and Wizard of Oz inner systems seem popular ones). Are all those people on forums lying about their symptoms, or does some other medical condition explain the feeling of dissociating to an imaginary world? Don't think they're all on drugs.

I think I mentioned this before but Roma Hart, one of the forum members here, was diagnosed with DID many years ago (by Colin Ross, one of the esteemed experts in the field, in fact) and she has offered a LOT of info about how easily someone can be persuaded that they are a "multiple" and that they are experiencing all these symptoms and this whole inner world. She did say at one point in her interview with Doug Mesner that the other "multiples" at her treatment center would exaggerate symptoms for attention. Most of them were convinced (by Dr. Ross) that their family had abused them, so they cut themselves off from family and they were isolated from outside influence.** When you're competing with several other people for attention from a trusted caregiver, it's easy to see why they might be tempted to exaggerate (or fabricate) symptoms.

I can't say if that is what's happening on psychforums, but there are many reasons why people may say and believe those things, and as Orphia said, many potential causes for reported symptoms. Dissociation is fairly common in some mental illnesses, for instance. Issues with memory, head injury, side effects from prescription or/and recreational drugs, etc.. any number of things might be going on.

Quote:

Is it even scientifically possible for that kind of inner worlds to exist inside a person's head? Here's a Psychforums thread where they discuss the subject. Seems pretty far fetched to be real for me. Especially when looking at their other posts, those who claim to have inner worlds also talk about having been sex slaves...

It's certainly possible for them to BELIEVE an inner world exists in their heads. Just from glancing at that thread, it just looks like people with an overactive imagination who have been coached (or who coached themselves) to express themselves in a certain way and to think of themselves as "multiple". That's how they frame their own internal monologue.


**This isolation seems to be very common among those with a DID diagnosis, and it should be a huge red flag that something is amiss.

Eta - "overactive imagination" probably comes off as dismissive, but if you read the accounts of Roma Hart, Jeanette Bartha, Sheri Storm and others, imagination clearly does play a role in the expression of DID symptoms.

[TsuDhoNimh]

Originally Posted by Rakarek

Is the general consensus amongst people here that Dissociative Identity Disorder doesn't exist at all?

I know several people with extremely compartmentalized identities, at least one of whom would be diagnosed as DID except that she's not "disordered" by it. It's just the way her mind works.

None of them have any SRA memories.

Quote:

Is there any known medical condition that could cause similar hot and cold temperature change-feelings without the mind control part?

Strokes, or just pressure on nerves from lying in in an awkward position.

The hospital I worked in was investigating biofeedback in the 1970s. One of the interns could raise the temperature of one hand and lower the temp of the other, then switch hands so the cold one got warmer and vice versa.

He just needed feedback - a light went on when the temperature was trending in the desired direction.

Some people found it to help with their migraines ... then they discovered that just putting your hands and forearms in a pan of hot water could do the same thing, without the biofeedback training.

[Altus]

Originally Posted by Rakarek

What's up with these DID patients saying they're retreating to "inner systems" or "inner worlds" where they can communicate with their alters or whatever, which the SRA advocates claim are programmed to them by the cultists(Alice in Wonderland and Wizard of Oz inner systems seem popular ones). Are all those people on forums lying about their symptoms, or does some other medical condition explain the feeling of dissociating to an imaginary world? Don't think they're all on drugs.

I am not sure "lying" is a helpful term. This is an ingrained belief system. Is a person lying when they say they know angels operate in their lives or that acupuncture caused their remission?

Some of these people have been fed these ideas and conditionally rewarded for them by their therapists, who are very invested in these belief systems, for years. What you might well be witnessing the the outcome of a feedback loop begun in the client/therapist relationship and enforced by reading books and participating in online forums.

Many of these women are socially isolated and these forums are their lives. They are echo chambers for symptoms and any source like the book in question which serve to validate them. No science needed. What appears totally off the wall to you or me is not to someone for whom the "survivor" narrative has become a way of life. The sad part of this is the degree to which it is enforced by some mental health professionals.

One of them I am reading right now, Richard Schwartz, continues to teach thousands of therapists that we have "parts" inside of us including many frozen in time. Therapists are encouraged to see these "parts" not as mental states but as full people with a full range of feelings needs and desires and memories. He says that if two of our parts disagree our "self" should ask them to face each other and work with them while the rest of the group (our other parts) watch. In the book Schwartz gives an example of how a completely "forgotten" memory can be played back in detail by a five-year old part. The center where this guy ran residential training has 4 major malpractice suits against it for creating false memories of trauma and cases of DID but he enjoys a full speaking schedule in the psych circuit and claims his therapy is one the fastest growing in psychoanalysis today.

People like Colin Ross, Ellen Lacter, Valarie Sinason and Neil Brick who are heavily invested in the SRA narrative give regular talks and workshops as well as treat patients.

What you may well be witnessing is the failure of the mental health field to address a cultural hysteria popularized 30 years ago by books TV shows and poor therapy. It has gone largely unaddressed. I contacted the Canadian Doctor profiled in this article and he immediately replied that the APA should have addressed this 3 decades ago. http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/12...uded-in-dsm-v/

[Rakarek]

I read the entire Doug Mesner interview with Roma Hart and I found it quite insightful; however there's one thing I found quite inconsistent with her story. She mentions Ross trying to convince her that she's been programmed by CIA with Theta, Beta, Omega alters and what not, but I believe that the first mention of CIA Mk-ultra and MPD relation was either done by Corydon Hammond in 1992 or Cathy O'brien and Mark Phillips in 1991. Therefore either Ross was rambling about CIA mind control before anyone else or the story of Hart is at least partially made up. Please tell me if I got it wrong. By the way, does Hart recall Ross mentioning "Project Monarch" specifically before 1992?

[Altus]

Originally Posted by Rakarek

I read the entire Doug Mesner interview with Roma Hart and I found it quite insightful; however there's one thing I found quite inconsistent with her story. She mentions Ross trying to convince her that she's been programmed by CIA with Theta, Beta, Omega alters and what not, but I believe that the first mention of CIA Mk-ultra and MPD relation was either done by Corydon Hammond in 1992 or Cathy O'brien and Mark Phillips in 1991. Therefore either Ross was rambling about CIA mind control before anyone else or the story of Hart is at least partially made up. Please tell me if I got it wrong. By the way, does Hart recall Ross mentioning "Project Monarch" specifically before 1992?

There are people who know more about these connections than I do and I hope they will comment, but my understanding is Hammond, Ross, etc. were all part of a group of mental health professionals begun in the Chicago area called the "International Society for the Study of Multiple Personality and Dissociation" or ISSMPD. After major malpractice suits started making the headlines concerning the therapeutic practices of some of their membership---including its founder, Bennett Bruan---they changed it to ISSTD (MPD has been replaced with the words "Truama and Dissociation)...same group. The CIA idea was promoted to the membership in the famous Hammond speech, but that hardly indicates that was the first time the membership or Ross had knowledge of it. In this speech you can see Ross weaving a tale on his conspiracy theory that traces back to Chicago in the 80s. http://www.whale.to/b/ross.html

Bruan, who lost his license in IL, is cited as believing there was a network afoot that involved AT&T, Hallmark the CIA and FTD. He said in a 1988 speech (to the ISSMPD?) that we (therapists?) were working with a international and national-international organization that had a communist cell structure. (Demons of the Modern World, McGrath, p. 127) http://tinyurl.com/80sSpeech

The completely unfounded ideas of various flavors that were circulated among this group at its conferences (and possibly through peer connections) and continue to be (under the ISSTD--SRA true believer Valarie Sinason addressed them in Oct), IMHO, have done and continue to do harm to the profession. Ross is a past president of the org and continues to give workshops.

[cosmicaug]

Early 90's HBO documentary: Multiple Personality Disorder: The Search for Deadly Memories. From a documentary series called America Undercover. Could definitely prove disturbing for some viewers (it even includes video of a patient "recovering memories" under sodium amytal).

Not much information on IMDB:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1742375/

[Roma]

Originally Posted by Rakarek

I read the entire Doug Mesner interview with Roma Hart and I found it quite insightful; however there's one thing I found quite inconsistent with her story. She mentions Ross trying to convince her that she's been programmed by CIA with Theta, Beta, Omega alters and what not, but I believe that the first mention of CIA Mk-ultra and MPD relation was either done by Corydon Hammond in 1992 or Cathy O'brien and Mark Phillips in 1991. Therefore either Ross was rambling about CIA mind control before anyone else or the story of Hart is at least partially made up. Please tell me if I got it wrong. By the way, does Hart recall Ross mentioning "Project Monarch" specifically before 1992?

Colin Ross asked me about the CIA mind control in October of 1986.
Other patients I know who were involved in lawsuits against him or his colleages also make the same references to Omega, Beta, etc. CIA, goggles and mind control being something brought up in their therapy during that same time.
Elizabeth Carlson
Patty Burgess
Nadine Coole
Laura Pasley
just google their names for their old lawsuits.
I have some of his earliest "books", and I will try to find something for you, in the mean time click on the link to my old JREF thread where I have posted a bunch of stuff that Colin keeps denying he ever knew about:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=166959

[Rakarek]

Originally Posted by Roma

Colin Ross asked me about the CIA mind control in October of 1986.
Other patients I know who were involved in lawsuits against him or his colleages also make the same references to Omega, Beta, etc. CIA, goggles and mind control being something brought up in their therapy during that same time.
Elizabeth Carlson
Patty Burgess
Nadine Coole
Laura Pasley
just google their names for their old lawsuits.
I have some of his earliest "books", and I will try to find something for you, in the mean time click on the link to my old JREF thread where I have posted a bunch of stuff that Colin keeps denying he ever knew about:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=166959

Thank you for replying to me personally! I will definately check out that thread when I hav the time. Did Ross explain you what Alpha, Omega etc meant to him before asking you what your "program" was? Hammond told therapists in his speech not to lead the patients, but according to your interview that was definately not the case with roSs, am I right?

[Roma]

Originally Posted by Rakarek

Thank you for replying to me personally! I will definately check out that thread when I hav the time. Did Ross explain you what Alpha, Omega etc meant to him before asking you what your "program" was? Hammond told therapists in his speech not to lead the patients, but according to your interview that was definately not the case with roSs, am I right?

Ross began by explaining how the CIA were using childen to program various named "duties", this mind control was aided with "goggles".

I can't really explain how this topic was brought up, it might have been during my second appointment with Ross after he had diagnosed me with MPD within fifteen minutes of my first appointment
During my second appointment Ross became excited right after I said to him that my father had been in both the military and the Masons.
The goggles had something to do with "sleep deprivation tanks" that the children were put in during the mind control sessions with the CIA, according to Ross the military and the Masons were involved in that mind control.
The names Alpha, Omega, etc. and their particular duties were questions he asked me after he explained what they meant, "So do you think you are..."
I didn't pay much attention to what he was saying because it all sounded absurd.

I wouldn't give any credance to anything Ross or Hammond say publically, I would pay more attention to the documented evidence in the court transcripts of the lawsuits brought against them.

[Roma]

Rakarek I have spent some time searching online for evidence of Colin Ross speaking or writing about the CIA before 1992, I knew where to look but my efforts proved futile when clicking on the links to his old seminars and then finding only "this page taken down" and no longer available.
I suppose there is a good reason for Ross to take down those pages.
The only good evidence that I can provide for you at this time that would support my argument that Ross has talked about the CIA to a person and then has under oath completely denied that he ever did such a thing is documented in this court transcript. It is a page taken from the court transcripts of the Carlson v. Humenansky trial, Ross was the only defence witness for Humenansky, Carlson won, Colin Ross' pants burst into flames, okay not actually but they should have

I'm just trying to copy the page here, gimme a minute.....

I can't seperate the pages, it's too much to post, I'll PM it to you Rakarek

Rakarek if you can just put p.122 up then please do, I can't get my ancient computer to do that for me here.

[Roma]

It finally copied!

[Dismember]

duplicate - sorry.

[Dismember]

Early in the thread someone posted that Tylas Raine, she of the many Amazon aliases, fancied herself an editor at the Wikipedia DID page. I wish I had thought to look earlier, but while I was browsing the DID Wiki page today I clicked on the "talk" tab, where editors can debate and hash out the details.

I found the following conversation noteworthy:

***
MathewTownsend: Tylas, your 1000 edits of POV was removed from the Wikipedia article. You have been threatened with a block twice, the last time was your final warning. So you moved your POV to Simple Wikipedia, so now it's ok, according to Nikkimaria. Shows what a farce wikipedia is. All the fuss about reliable sources is just a show, evidently, if Wikipedia supports linking to POV articles on Simple Wikipedia. I wouldn't care if the Wikipedia article weren't linked to the POV at Simple. MathewTownsend (talk) 22:05, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Tylas: Mathew - WLU had a version he wanted in his sandbox and he simply replaced what I was in the process of working on with his version. I had mine out in the open and worked on it daily and welcomed others to help. Oh you are twisting words. Two women have politely reminded me that I cannot talk about some groups of people on here and I won't.(please, see my talk page for this information) (The page she linked to is gone, but I can only guess she was talking about pedophiles... and what is it with this obsession with accusing people of pedophilia? This is common to all the Amazon DID/SRA proponents) That is not a problem at all. Don't try and get me to say the word - please. Not nice! I have not "moved" my POV anywhere. I was researching for another project I am working on and found that article and started to work on it. Period! I am not expressing my POV. I am trying to get WP to report the expert consensus of those that study DID like the encyclopedia is suppose to. Instead I run up again WLU who still claims things that are only believed in the pop culture and then you show up and support him. I have no idea what that is about and don't want to know. The experts in DID are not a POV minority group! Oh my! You can't rattle me. Hound me. Attack me all you want. I am not going. Tylas ✫ ♥♫ 22:14, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

MathewTownsend: Two women threatened you with a block because you were calling editors paedophiles and worse. The last time your comments to a Signpost talk page were oversighted, removed completely from Wikipedia and you were given a final warning. 22:33, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
***

Before any of us (or me, at least) had ever heard of Judy Byington and 22 Faces, Tylas Raine was freely throwing around pedophile accusations because she couldn't gain control of the Wikipedia DID page. Reading through more of her comments, she is convinced that DID is uncontroversial and widely accepted by experts. I'm sure this view is encouraged and supported by Tom Cloyd, a psychotherapist who "treats" DID clients and who apparently left Wikipedia in a huff because his "expertise" on DID wasn't well received. Tylas Raine also lists him on her DID website. (His own website is here.)

I've seen Tom Cloyd's page before, probably when I following Tylas's involvement in the Amazon drama, but I have to say, it's discouraging every time I see a licensed professional promoting the DID narrative.

[Weak Kitten]

I would like to note the Wikipedia's page on DID is really quite fantastic. It is as level headed and even handed an entry as I have ever seen about any controversial subject. I can understand why the Wiki editors, on both sides of the issue, would object to poorly written, unreferenced, or unbalanced edits of their page. I would also point out that the page is being watched by over 400 people who probably swoop down like enraged mother hawks on anyone who messes with their baby.

[Dismember]

Originally Posted by Weak Kitten

I would like to note the Wikipedia's page on DID is really quite fantastic. It is as level headed and even handed an entry as I have ever seen about any controversial subject.

I agree, the "finished" (so to speak) product is very balanced.

[Pacal]

Originally Posted by Roma

Rakarek I have spent some time searching online for evidence of Colin Ross speaking or writing about the CIA before 1992, I knew where to look but my efforts proved futile when clicking on the links to his old seminars and then finding only "this page taken down" and no longer available.
I suppose there is a good reason for Ross to take down those pages.
The only good evidence that I can provide for you at this time that would support my argument that Ross has talked about the CIA to a person and then has under oath completely denied that he ever did such a thing is documented in this court transcript. It is a page taken from the court transcripts of the Carlson v. Humenansky trial, Ross was the only defence witness for Humenansky, Carlson won, Colin Ross' pants burst into flames, okay not actually but they should have

I'm just trying to copy the page here, gimme a minute.....

I can't seperate the pages, it's too much to post, I'll PM it to you Rakarek

Rakarek if you can just put p.122 up then please do, I can't get my ancient computer to do that for me here.

You might want to try the Wayback machine at Internet Archive http://archive.org/index.php

[Roma]

Originally Posted by Pacal

You might want to try the Wayback machine at Internet Archive http://archive.org/index.php

Thanks Pacal, if I had known twenty years ago that Ross was going to just start deleting his past I would have kept many more documents, I hope this Wayback machine works. The only other way is to have people just go down to the universities and ask the librarians to help me look. I love librarians

[Altus]

Originally Posted by Dismember

I've seen Tom Cloyd's page before, probably when I following Tylas's involvement in the Amazon drama, but I have to say, it's discouraging every time I see a licensed professional promoting the DID narrative.

He was on Amazon defending Judy's book a few days ago. That any professional in health care takes that book seriously is concerning.

This one is really head spinning. This is the org Judy (an unlicensed therapist) gave a webinar for back in November. Neil Brick is on the board. They secured another licensed therapist to address their ritual abuse conference out in CA. http://www.sfrankelgroup.com/our-faculty.html He also has a law degree and gives seminars on surviving licensing board actions. He talks on "law and ethics." This guy is concerning because he appears so legit. Of real concern is his talk.

From his seminar blurb:

Quote:

...research on RA/MC survivors - many of whom are treating clinicians – is now coming to fruition and will make significant contributions to the understanding and treatment of survivors.

http://survivorship.org/2013conference.html

So therapists who claim they were satanically ritually abused and mind controlled are treating patients...a concern in and of itself, but they are also doing research and contributing to treatment? Oy vey, what year is this, again?

Now this is from the same website that describes every day as a potential panic holiday. Who knew that March 1st was?: Mar. 1 St. Eichatadt –blood –drinking of human blood for strength and homage to the demons – any age (male or female)

http://www.survivorship.org/resources/altcalendar.html

I don't know which is more sad, that healthcare dollars can go to folks who promote things like this or that you have a psychologist and lawyer who gives seminars on "law and ethics" addressing these folks and who seems himself to believe in the whole satanic ritual abuse/mind-control meme.

[Gaspode]

Discussion on 'healthy multiplicity' split to new thread.

Posted By:Gaspode

[Orphia Nay]

Thanks, Gaspode!

[Rakarek]

Colin Ross has apparently claimed that several FMSF advisory board members were connected to CIA mind control programs. Is there any evidence for this claim?

Could someone debunk this article attacking FMSF and advocating SRA?