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Tags alternate history , Nazi Germany history , World War II history

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Old 28th October 2012, 09:39 AM   #241
Craig B
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
I’m really skeptical of the Nazi gas van claim, I have always thought it the weakest link of the grand Holocaust.
And its strongest link is ... ?
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Old 28th October 2012, 09:56 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
I thought the Germans were received as liberators? Many of the oppressed peoples under the Soviet regime joined the SS, especially in the Baltic countries.
If by "joined" you mean "slaughtered by", then yes you are correct.
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Old 28th October 2012, 10:05 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
Show me a picture if a death gas van.
Here's a whole article about them. Maybe you'll learn something, maybe you won't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_van
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Old 28th October 2012, 02:33 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
They had the bomb by March 1945, a bit too late.
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Thuringia_(nuclear_test)

Do you think by repeating that long-debunked claim it'll magically become true? It was wrong the first time you made it and it's still wrong now, as the evidence conclusively demonstrates.
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Old 28th October 2012, 02:41 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
In post 97 you said: “Also, Hitler was a nut."
To me that seemed a bit gratuitous.

Throwing your copy of Mien Kampf into a bin was also a clue. It just seemed to me you had a need to prove something to others here and to yourself as well. Perhaps there is something deep inside of you that you can not come to terms with?

Well, maybe I wasn't succinct enough for you or maybe you have comprehension problems. Not sure.

Hitler was crazy. That's one of the reasons the war was never going to be won. He constantly made irrational decisions based on intuition or some such crap.

As for throwing Mien Kampf in the bin, at the time I had been using it as a resource. You don't get good marks for essays by using secondary sources but I'm sure you know that. Once that was done I threw it in the bin because I don't think it's something that's worth owning. It's a disjointed, rambling, racist rant, full of delusion and hatred.

Trying to psychoanalyse internet posts is never a good idea. It makes your musings come across as paranoid.
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Old 28th October 2012, 02:44 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post

May I thank you for helping Krikkiter understand what being "pro Hitler" means. I'm sure he must have grasped the concept by now.

I'm starting to get it, yes.
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Old 28th October 2012, 03:40 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Krikkiter View Post

Hitler was crazy. That's one of the reasons the war was never going to be won. He constantly made irrational decisions based on intuition or some such crap.
When you are fighting a losing battle rationality won't help you that much. The Nazis constructed a reality based on irrationality to stay in the war to the end. There was nothing crazy about that.
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Old 28th October 2012, 03:50 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
Didn’t Hitler’s Germany liberate itself from the international banking system? And wasn’t that the real reason the Allies wanted to destroy Germany?
The Allies had zero interest in destroying Germany through the 1930s; indeed they bent over backwards to avoid war. Germany could repudiate the banking system if it wanted; that wasn't going to provide any sources of the foreign exchange that Germany needed nor avoid the need to print money to pay their own workers with the inflationary consequences that would bring.
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Old 28th October 2012, 03:51 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Mikeys View Post
When you are fighting a losing battle rationality won't help you that much. The Nazis constructed a reality based on irrationality to stay in the war to the end. There was nothing crazy about that.
Except that 'the end' was crazy in itself.
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Old 28th October 2012, 04:05 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Mikeys View Post
When you are fighting a losing battle rationality won't help you that much. The Nazis constructed a reality based on irrationality to stay in the war to the end. There was nothing crazy about that.
It seems a bit crazy to me. Most rationally-governed states would sue for peace if defeat, and indeed total destruction was the inevitable outcome of continued hopeless resistance.

Consider the case of Italy. Once it became evident that the Allied landings in the south could not be repelled, the dominant social groups, including the hierarchy of the Fascist Party and the king, at once dismissed their despotic head of government, and withdrew from the war. There was nothing crazy about that! It's the German behaviour that seems crazier.
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Old 28th October 2012, 04:37 PM   #251
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Hitler had an irrational habit of sacking officers when times were tough. He also insisted on "micro managing" things from long distances. And, as was mentioned, the Battle of Berlin really showcased his madness as he ordered imaginary divisions into attacks.
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Old 28th October 2012, 05:09 PM   #252
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Churchill sacked plenty of generals as well. It's what you do when they don't seem to be getting the results you want.
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Old 28th October 2012, 05:21 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Do you think by repeating that long-debunked claim it'll magically become true? It was wrong the first time you made it and it's still wrong now, as the evidence conclusively demonstrates.
I clicked on the link without checking, and it got picked up my my office's web filter for "hate and racism". That's what one gets when they check on Metapedia.
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Old 28th October 2012, 05:31 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Vermonter View Post
I clicked on the link without checking, and it got picked up my my office's web filter for "hate and racism". That's what one gets when they check on Metapedia.
Not surprising. Wiki states of Metapedia:
Quote:
According to the North Rhine-Westphalian Office for the Protection of the Constitution, Metapedia's articles are characterized by historical revisionism and lauding Nazi Germany. For this reason, the German Federal Department for Media Harmful to Young Persons (Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Medien) started an indexing process — that is, it is considering declaring metapedia "harmful to young people".
Although I am confident that the good sense of young people will prevail over Metapedia's absurdities and distortions.
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Old 28th October 2012, 05:42 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Churchill sacked plenty of generals as well. It's what you do when they don't seem to be getting the results you want.
But Hitler's reasons were often quite bizarre. Then again, Churchill's probably were too. I don't know enough about that to comment really.
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Old 29th October 2012, 04:49 AM   #256
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Drama/Documantary from 1979 BBC

Churchill and the Generals is good.

A Docudrama about Churchills relationship with his commanders.

On Youtube in 3 parts http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMXjulVVSZk (part 1)

Churchill we see here is someone who got rid of people basically because they didn't kiss up to him.
He got rid of Wavell who defeated the Italians and Auchinleck who stopped the German advance at the first battle of El Alamein for pretty much that reason.

He was an inspirational leader but should have been more like Roosevelt who knew his limitations and left the fighting to the military. Cnurchill had this beleif that he was a great military planner. History shows that he wasn't.
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Old 29th October 2012, 08:18 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
They had the bomb by March 1945, a bit too late.
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Thuringia_(nuclear_test)
Now, now we've dealt with that particular Nazi fantasy before.
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Old 29th October 2012, 08:23 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Churchill and the Generals is good ... Churchill we see here is someone who got rid of people basically because they didn't kiss up to him ... Churchill had this beleif that he was a great military planner. History shows that he wasn't.
Yes it is said that he was a very poor military planner, and that campaigns he unduly interfered in (during both world wars) ended badly.

But it is also said that, like Stalin, but unlike Hitler, he learned to leave generals alone to do their work. Stalin, too, liked people to "kiss up to him" but military skill, such as was displayed by Zhukov, was not rejected, even if it was not accompanied by grovelling sycophancy.

Throughout the war, while Churchill and Stalin improved, Hitler deteriorated, and ended by moving non-existent units around maps, while his generals tried to work out how best to surrender without falling into the hands of the Russians.

Last edited by Craig B; 29th October 2012 at 08:24 AM. Reason: Spelling correction.
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Old 29th October 2012, 09:52 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
(Churchill) learned to leave generals alone to do their work.
Well, no.

Churchill, throughout the North African campaign, pushed the commanders into offensives. The most obvious one was pushing Auchinleck to attack Rommel in the summer of '42 (indeed for most of his tenure), for Auchinleck to point out that it was not going to happen until October at the earliest. Churchill felt this was ridiculous, what with all the forces poured into Egypt.

So Auk got the sack and (after Gott got killed) Monty took over and launched Churchill's much-desired offensive...in late October.
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Old 29th October 2012, 10:53 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Well, no.

Churchill, throughout the North African campaign, pushed the commanders into offensives. The most obvious one was pushing Auchinleck to attack Rommel in the summer of '42 (indeed for most of his tenure), for Auchinleck to point out that it was not going to happen until October at the earliest. Churchill felt this was ridiculous, what with all the forces poured into Egypt.

So Auk got the sack and (after Gott got killed) Monty took over and launched Churchill's much-desired offensive...in late October.
Auchinleck got sacked for the disasters from Gazala onwards, which were due to unclear strategy, poor command structure, poor choice of commanders etc. Even when he stepped in himself at the First battle of Alamein he ran up high casualties for little gain.

Montgomery had the measure of Churchill. IIRC he drafted a signal for Alexander to send basically saying 'if you force me to attack in September it will fail, in October victory is certain' - what politician will over-ride a general with that message on the record?
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Old 29th October 2012, 11:01 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Gbob View Post
All of a sudden, Hitler announces on the radio that he has developed a super weapon. He tests this weapon on a city in the Ukraine. The world takes notice.

This would not lead to the surrender of Europe or the United States.
"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."
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Old 29th October 2012, 11:34 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."
Well the Ukraine is too remote to make an effective demonstration.
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Old 29th October 2012, 11:46 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Chris L View Post
Well the Ukraine is too remote to make an effective demonstration.

But don't worry, we'll deal with your Allied friends soon enough.
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Old 29th October 2012, 01:05 PM   #264
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What if Hitler launched a PR Blitz on England after taking France? Sending home all the POWs from Dunkirk and not starting the Battle of Britain. Would English common people still want to fight?
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Old 29th October 2012, 01:31 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
What if Hitler launched a PR Blitz on England after taking France? Sending home all the POWs from Dunkirk and not starting the Battle of Britain. Would English common people still want to fight?
Frankly he had broken every promise he ever made, I can't imagine what he might say to appease them, if anything he would probably antagonize the British more. And it's British not English.
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Old 29th October 2012, 01:59 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Frankly he had broken every promise he ever made, I can't imagine what he might say to appease them, if anything he would probably antagonize the British more. And it's British not English.
Sorry, ignorant American.
What if it was deeds and not talk? Could he have defused British animosity if ships loaded with well fed and cared for POW's were sent home?
That coupled with a suspension of hostilities on the Atlantic and elsewhere?
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Old 29th October 2012, 03:17 PM   #267
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NAZI Germany missed numerous opportunities to deliver killer blows, committed crucial errors of omission, or made poor tactical choices. Mostly, the blame could be laid squarely at the feet of their leader, a brilliant madman who didn't understand the advantages of technological superiority, and failed to appreciate the benefits of a tactical retreat, and refused to take advice from better, more experienced commanders in the field.

Some of the main mistakes they made were...

1. Switching from bombing RAF airfields to bombing London
Big tactical blunder. Germany started attacking RAF airfields in early August 1940. By September 1940, the airfields of 11 group (south) and to a lesser extent 10 group (south-west) and and 12 group (midlands) were barely able to function. My father was an aircraft engineer at RAF Hornchurch in 1940. Before he died, he related to me that, while they were very upset about bombing of London, there was a sense of relief among his colleagues that with the Luftwaffe no longer bombing them, they could get on with their job virtually unhindered. This was never so succinctly put than by this quote, from AVM Keith Park (AOC 11 Group) talking about what he saw the day the Luftwaffe started bombing London...

"It was burning all down the river. It was a horrid sight. But I looked down and said 'Thank God for that', because I knew that the Nazis had switched their attack from the fighter stations thinking that they were knocked out. They weren't, but they were pretty groggy"

Following on from that mistake, this one..

2. Cancelling Operation Sealion.

Had they invaded England when they originally intended, the war could have been over within a few months. The airfields of 10, 11 and 12 group were in a dire state, and 13 Group (in the north of England) was too far away to effectively defend the south coast and channel. England was totally unprepared to defend herself against the type of attack that the German armed forces had used against Poland, Czechoslovakia and France...Blitzkreig.

3. Not pursuing Jet Engine research with enough urgency.
By August 1939 the Germans had a jet aircraft flying (the Heinkel 178) with a turbojet engine based on a 1928 Frank Whittle design concept. Similarly, the Italians also had a jet aircraft (the Caproni Campini N1) flying 12 months later. However, Hitler seemed disinterested in pushing this technology along as a priority. They had the Me262 fighter jet flying by mid 1942, but it was almost two years (April 1944) before they entered service. Too little and too late.

4. Attacking the Soviets
Big mistake. What kind of leader decides to open a new front in one direction, when they are only just holding their own on the one in the opposite direction? Its a variation the old adage "divide and conquer"... if you divide your limited forces, you will probably be conquered.

5. Victimising the Jews
There can be little doubt that Hitler's maniacal obsession with promoting the concept of Aryan supremacy was his undoing. In his insane drive to rid Europe of Jews, he killed a LOT of scientists and intelligent people, or drove them out towards the enemy. He and his hangers-on were blinkered, taking a "we don't need any Jews science" attitude. These were just the sort of people who could have given him a technological advantage.

Last edited by smartcooky; 29th October 2012 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 29th October 2012, 03:49 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
NAZI Germany missed numerous opportunities to deliver killer blows, committed crucial errors of omission, or made poor tactical choices. Mostly, the blame could be laid squarely at the feet of their leader, a brilliant madman who didn't understand the advantages of technological superiority, and failed to appreciate the benefits of a tactical retreat, and refused to take advice from better, more experienced commanders in the field.

Some of the main mistakes they made were...

1. Switching from bombing RAF airfields to bombing London
Big tactical blunder. Germany started attacking RAF airfields in early August 1940. By September 1940, the airfields of 11 group (south) and to a lesser extent 10 group (south-west) and and 12 group (midlands) were barely able to function. My father was an aircraft engineer at RAF Hornchurch in 1940. Before he died, he related to me that, while they were very upset about bombing of London, there was a sense of relief among his colleagues that with the Luftwaffe no longer bombing them, they could get on with their job virtually unhindered. This was never so succinctly put than by this quote, from AVM Keith Park (AOC 11 Group) talking about what he saw the day the Luftwaffe started bombing London...

"It was burning all down the river. It was a horrid sight. But I looked down and said 'Thank God for that', because I knew that the Nazis had switched their attack from the fighter stations thinking that they were knocked out. They weren't, but they were pretty groggy"

Following on from that mistake, this one..

2. Cancelling Operation Sealion.

Had they invaded England when they originally intended, the war could have been over within a few months. The airfields of 10, 11 and 12 group were in a dire state, and 13 Group (in the north of England) was too far away to effectively defend the south coast and channel. England was totally unprepared to defend herself against the type of attack that the German armed forces had used against Poland, Czechoslovakia and France...Blitzkreig.

3. Not pursuing Jet Engine research with enough urgency.
By August 1939 the Germans had a jet aircraft flying (the Heinkel 178) with a turbojet engine based on a 1928 Frank Whittle design concept. Similarly, the Italians also had a jet aircraft (the Caproni Campini N1) flying 12 months later. However, Hitler seemed disinterested in pushing this technology along as a priority. They had the Me262 fighter jet flying by mid 1942, but it was almost two years (April 1944) before they entered service. Too little and too late.

4. Attacking the Soviets
Big mistake. What kind of leader decides to open a new front in one direction, when they are only just holding their own on the one in the opposite direction? Its a variation the old adage "divide and conquer"... if you divide your limited forces, you will probably be conquered.

5. Victimising the Jews
There can be little doubt that Hitler's maniacal obsession with promoting the concept of Aryan supremacy was his undoing. In his insane drive to rid Europe of Jews, he killed a LOT of scientists and intelligent people, or drove them out towards the enemy. He and his hangers-on were blinkered, taking a "we don't need any Jews science" attitude. These were just the sort of people who could have given him a technological advantage.
Sealion was impossible given the available resources, attacking the Soviet Union and persecuting the Jews were basic parts of Hitler's program, there is no chance of him giving them up. Even postponing the attack on the USSR is unlikely a in addition to being a prime target he thought removing the USSR as a possible source of support would persuade the British to make terms and you exaggerate the degree of success the Luftwaffe was achieving against the RAF, and if the Germans had pushed harder for Jet fighters the Allies would have responded in kind so any advantage would be temporary.
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Old 29th October 2012, 03:53 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
Sorry, ignorant American.
What if it was deeds and not talk? Could he have defused British animosity if ships loaded with well fed and cared for POW's were sent home?
That coupled with a suspension of hostilities on the Atlantic and elsewhere?
The problem is that he had no credibility and worse he had control of the Channel ports and no British government could ever tolerate a hostile power holding those. It's been a prime motivator for British military intervention in Europe for centuries. Plus you also have to factor in that Hitler expected Britain to capitulate at some point in the near future anyway, I can't see what would make him so generous.
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Old 29th October 2012, 04:20 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Sealion was impossible given the available resources
They were actually ready to go on September 17 when it was cancelled.

Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
attacking the Soviet Union and persecuting the Jews were basic parts of Hitler's program, there is no chance of him giving them up. Even postponing the attack on the USSR as unlikely a in addition to being a prime target he thought removing the USSR as a possible source of support would persuade the British to make terms
This may be true, but it doesn't mean that they weren't mistakes.

Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
and you exaggerate the degree of success the Luftwaffe was achieving against the RAF
Not according to those who were there, and experienced it first hand. They were relieved that the assault on the airfields stopped.

Start here...

h t t p://w w w.battleofbritain1940.net/0023.html

and work your way forwards over the next month to September 1940

Had the bombing not been switched from the airfields to London, the RAF could very well have been hammered so hard that they would not have been able to mount effective defensive operations.

Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
and if the Germans had pushed harder for Jet fighters the Allies would have responded in kind so any advantage would be temporary.
That's fair comment, but again, it does'nt mean that failing to pursue the technology wasn't a mistake.
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Old 29th October 2012, 05:02 PM   #271
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Did the German realize their tontons would freeze before they reached the Urals?
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Old 29th October 2012, 05:17 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Did the German realize their tontons would freeze before they reached the Urals?
You mean Tauntauns?

They should have, another little corporal had the same problem 129 years earlier, almost to the day.
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Old 29th October 2012, 09:47 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Had the bombing not been switched from the airfields to London, the RAF could very well have been hammered so hard that they would not have been able to mount effective defensive operations.

If the loss rate of both pilots and aircraft (both of which exceeded replacements) in the two week period of Aug.24-Sept. 6 had continued for another two to three weeks, then yes, Fighter Command might have found itself in a lot of trouble. But by that time the Luftwaffe too would have been in a lot of trouble. Over the course of the whole battle, the relative loss rates in both crews and aircraft remained relatively constant: the Luftwaffe lost nine aircraft for every five RAF fighters it destroyed, and it suffered five aircrew casualties for every one it inflicted on the RAF. By the time the Luftwaffe could have broken Fighter Command the Luftwaffe itself would have been broken.

Moreover, in order for the Luftwaffe to not switch to bombing London it would have needed far better intelligence than it actually had. Throughout the battle the Germans underestimated British fighter production and overestimated RAF losses. The result was that, by early September, it was believed that the RAF was down to perhaps a little over one hundred fighters, and it was decided the best way to force that remaining amount into the sky was by an assault on London. Of course, Fighter Command was actually considerably stronger than the German estimates.

Also, Fighter Command had options. 11 Group bore the brunt of the fighting. If things had gotten too bad it could have withdrawn that Group's fighters to bases further north, outside of the range of escorted German bombers. That would have reduced their effectiveness in intercepting Luftwaffe raids, but it would have kept the aircraft and airfields safe from bombing raids.

On the evening of Sept. 14th—just the eighth day after the attacks on London started—the RAF had 533 serviceable Hurricanes and 269 serviceable Spitfires, or 802 available fighters (of which 310 were in 11 Group; 172 were largely sitting out the battle in 13 Group). Either Fighter Command recovered its strength astonishingly quickly over those eight days, or it was not anywhere near as badly off as has been claimed.

(Over the eight days from Aug. 30-Sept. 6, the RAF lost 151 aircraft; over the eight days comprising Sept. 7-14, it lost 89 aircraft. Thus while the loss rate over the latter eight-day period was lower, it was not zero, and thus the 802 serviceable fighters available on the evening of Sept. 14 would tend to indicate Fighter Command, while certainly hard-pressed, was not anywhere close to the point of breaking.)
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Old 29th October 2012, 11:44 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
I thought the Germans were received as liberators? Many of the oppressed peoples under the Soviet regime joined the SS, especially in the Baltic countries.
"twenty five of the thirty eight Waffen-SS division were formed from foreign volunteers or conscripts, or around 60% of Waffen-SS members were non-German."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-...and_conscripts

I think there were multiple cases in which foreign nationals (Soon Danish, Belgian, Norwegian, Swedish, Finnish and Dutch volunteers) joined the SS
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Old 29th October 2012, 11:50 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
4. Attacking the Soviets
Big mistake. What kind of leader decides to open a new front in one direction, when they are only just holding their own on the one in the opposite direction? Its a variation the old adage "divide and conquer"... if you divide your limited forces, you will probably be conquered.
Hitler attacked the USSR probably as he wanted to conquer the world, or most part of it, not just Europe.
According to some, invading the USSR in 1941 gave him a big tactical advantage as Stalin did not expect an attack so early

"Another viewpoint is that Stalin expected war in 1942 (the time when all his preparations would be complete) and stubbornly refused to believe its early arrival"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern...a:_Summer_1941
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Old 29th October 2012, 11:53 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
They were actually ready to go on September 17 when it was cancelled.
A Napoleonic war quote from Lord St. Vincent is probably the best response to Operation Sealion enthusiasts:

"I do not say the French cannot come, I only say they cannot come by sea"

Operation Sealion would have cut to pieces by the Royal Navy, destroying the remants of the German Navy, a large portion of barges used for inland waterway transport in Europe, and a German Army.

Last edited by Aber; 29th October 2012 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 30th October 2012, 12:24 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
They were actually ready to go on September 17 when it was cancelled.

I don't think so.

Where are you getting this from?

What do you mean by "ready"? How many divisions were "ready" and what was their make-up? Where were they stationed and where was their assembly area on the coast? How were they getting across the Channel (craft type/s)? What was the structure of the invasion fleet and what was the level of air cover?

Naval Group West. September 12:
Interruptions caused by the enemy's air forces, long range artillery and light naval forces have, for the first time, assumed major significance. The harbors at Ostend, Dunkirk, Calais and Boulogne cannot be used as night anchorages for shipping because of the danger of English bombings and shelling. Units of the British Fleet are now able to operate almost unmolested in the Channel. Owing to these difficulties further delays are expected in the assembly of the invasion fleet.

The bolded (mine) part tells me that on the 12th they didn't even have an invasion fleet assembled let alone ready to go five days later.
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Old 30th October 2012, 01:13 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
They were actually ready to go on September 17 when it was cancelled.
Any evidence of this? How were they planning on getting there?
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Old 30th October 2012, 01:52 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
NAZI

1. Switching from bombing RAF airfields to bombing London

[B}2. Cancelling Operation Sealion.[/b] .


Both of these have already been discussed at length in this thread.

Both are myths.

IF the airfields became untenable the RAF squadrons would have been moved nort hand west out of range, there would have been reduced cover over the South East but the Germans would have still had the same disadvantages of operating at the limit of their range and endurance. RAF strength would still have increased and the Luftwaffe strength decreased.

As for Sealion as already discussed at length it would have been a spectacular failure. In fact it might have been better if it did go ahead. A big defeat for Hitler at that time might have changed the course of the war completely.
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Old 30th October 2012, 01:56 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
Sorry, ignorant American.
What if it was deeds and not talk? Could he have defused British animosity if ships loaded with well fed and cared for POW's were sent home?
That coupled with a suspension of hostilities on the Atlantic and elsewhere?
He would have had to pull back from France and the Low Countries as well, returning to the pre war borders. Do you think the British Govt would have allowed him to keep all of Western Europe including the Channel Coast and the French Atlantic ports as well as the French coast on the Med?

What would have happened to Italy? Britian would still be at war with them in the Med and Northern Africa. Without the threat of invasion and the U-Boat threat lifted a lot more resources could be put into the Med theatre. Would Hitler have just stood by while Italy was defeated?
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