Great, no "Afterlife"?

BillyJoe · 13th June 2004, 03:04 AM

From this week's commentary......

Quote:

[my boyfriend], like me, is now an atheist and skeptic — although I fear he'll fall back into faith someday, given how sad he seems to find the idea of no afterlife. Me, I find the concept immensely cheering.

Do you find the idea of there being no afterlife cheerful?

Luceiia · 13th June 2004, 05:57 AM

If you find it cheerful, please say why.

Luceiia

Pixel42 · 13th June 2004, 06:25 AM

I've never understood why most people are more bothered by the fact that they will not exist after their deaths than they are by the fact that they didn't exist before they were born.

I was born in 1953. I was completely unconcerned by my non-existence in 1950, and I confidently expect to be equally unconcerned by it in 2050.

BillyJoe · 13th June 2004, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Luceiia
If you find it cheerful, please say why.

Hey, whose thread is this.

Yes, please say why.
How about you, Luceiia? How did you vote?

BillyJoe · 13th June 2004, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pixel42
I've never understood why most people are more bothered by the fact that they will not exist after their deaths than they are by the fact that they didn't exist before they were born.

I was born in 1953. I was completely unconcerned by my non-existence in 1950, and I confidently expect to be equally unconcerned by it in 2050.

I don't know about that Pixel.

In 1953, you were NOT unconcerned by your non-existence because you did not exist. Equally, in 2050, you WON'T be unconcerned about your non-existence because you won't exist.

I wonder if we could concentrate on the living present and future. Does the fact that there is no "Afterlife", affect you in any way positively or negatively at present. Do you expect it to affect you at any time in the future? For example, if and when you develop an incurable illness? Or on your death-bed?

BillyJoe

LucyR · 13th June 2004, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BillyJoe
I don't know about that Pixel.

I wonder if we could concentrate on the living present and future. Does the fact that there is no "Afterlife", affect you in any way positively or negatively at present.

Actually, I find the thought comforting. No matter how bad it gets at least it ends. Hopefully.

Pixel42 · 13th June 2004, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BillyJoe
I wonder if we could concentrate on the living present and future. Does the fact that there is no "Afterlife", affect you in any way positively or negatively at present. Do you expect it to affect you at any time in the future? For example, if and when you develop an incurable illness? Or on your death-bed?

BillyJoe

No.

'Past' 'present' and 'future' are illusions caused by the fact that we perceive time differently to the other three dimensions of our four-dimensional universe - our consciousness moves along it in one direction, so we don't experience it in total the way we experience the three spacial directions. Any physicist will tell you, however, that time is not really different to the other three dimensions. Saying "Tom lives in 1900, Dick in 2000 and Harry in 2100" is no different to saying "Tom lives in the US, Dick in England and Harry in Australia".

My existence is finite in space and time, but the fact that I exist at all means that my existence is an indelible part of the Universe. That's why I say that I am as unconcerned about my non-existence in 2050 as I am about my non-existence in 1950.

At this moment in 2004 there are millions of people who don't exist because they haven't been born yet who, in 100 years time, won't exist because they have lived and died. These people will, in 2054, find the prospect of their non-existence in 2104 more difficult to accept than the fact of their non-existence in 2004. But that's only because of their limited perception of time, compared to the other three dimensions.

BillyJoe · 14th June 2004, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LucyR
Actually, I find the thought comforting. No matter how bad it gets at least it ends. Hopefully.

What if your life is a barrell of laughs? What if you're enjoying life to the fullest? Wouldn't you want there to be an afterlife?

BJ

BillyJoe · 14th June 2004, 02:52 AM

Pixel,

It's a big call, but I have to say that I don't believe you.

I am almost certain that you are avoiding the issue. Quoting theoretical physics is not a way to answer a question such as this but merely a way of avoiding answering it or, more pointedly, a way of avoiding really thinking about it.
I feel you may have a real problem coming to terms with your discovery that there is no afterlife. Of course, it's only a feeling and perhaps you can show me I am wrong.

BJ

LucyR · 14th June 2004, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BillyJoe
What if your life is a barrell of laughs? What if you're enjoying life to the fullest? Wouldn't you want there to be an afterlife?

BJ

What if your life is a barrel of laughs? What if you're enjoying life to the full?

Not if the people in it can't speak English.

steenkh · 14th June 2004, 03:06 AM

The question of whether to be happy that there is no afterlife is really dependent on what kind of afterlife.

The Bible's idea of an afterlife being singing the praise of God for all eternity, sounds so dull that I can be happy that there is no afterlife. The thought of rebirth gives me creeps because then I would have to go through a life all over again, and I might turn up to be an afterlife-believing idiot! And so on.

But I am definitely not happy that there is no afterlife. My brain has never experienced not to exist, and it is almost impossible to accept that some day I will not be around anymore. I agree that having no afterlife should not be worse than having no beforelife, but it feels different. Mostly because the beforelife is over and done with, but the afterlife is still waiting not to exist.

But I can not just say "Hey, I would be comforted by an afterlife" and then join a religion, because I still have my reasoning powers that tell me that afterlife and Santa Claus do no just exist because I would like them to.

Steen

BillyJoe · 14th June 2004, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LucyR
What if your life is a barrel of laughs? What if you're enjoying life to the full?

Not if the people in it can't speak English.

Lucy, you are avoiding the issue also

.....

.....but you are doing it on purpose aren't you?. You are fooling around? Right?

But humour me, what do you really think or feel on this issue?

BJ

BillyJoe · 14th June 2004, 03:21 AM

Steen,

Thanks for your reply.
You have obviously thought this through both intellectually and emotionally. In particular, you have not avoided thinking about the potentially devastating impact of the realization that there is no afterlife.
Thanks again.

BJ

thaiboxerken · 14th June 2004, 05:58 AM

Yep, cuz I'd hate to be in heaven around all the christians, or in hell around the wiccans.

Vikram · 14th June 2004, 06:45 AM

I'm a new member here and this is my first post. This topic really caught my eye because I’d had a similar discussion a while ago with a fellow skeptic friend of mine.

I would personally be delighted if there were to be an afterlife, in much the same way that I would be delighted if I weren't a Muggle and could actually raise my wand and utter, "Expeliarmus" and have the person before me take a back flip and fall flat on the ground.

That said, I will most certainly not sacrifice any of my rational thinking at the altar of this belief. The fact remains - there is no evidence whatsoever of the existence of the afterlife, and thus, any longing that I might have for the possibility of existing beyond the grave or pyre remains just that... a longing.

However, the absence of an afterlife doesn’t really devastate me to any degree (though during contemplative moments, I, at the ripe old age of 23, find myself overwhelmed by the supreme tragedy of the fact that I won’t be around to find out whether Microsoft or Apple have the upper hand in 2100) and it doesn’t hamper my ability to live my life to the hilt.

My answer to the poll is thus ‘No’. The absence of an afterlife is a concept that I accept with a neutral sense of factuality. Apples falling to the ground do not cheer me (unless I have an irresistible craving for cider) and similarly, the complete termination of my existence when my mortal body ceases to function doesn’t cheer me either (in fact, I have the strongest hunch that just before I die, I will remember something that I wanted to do before I died and didn't.) The presence of an afterlife, on the other hand, is something that I would find cheerful, with the slight assumption of course that this afterlife were to be enjoyable and not fraught with the iniquity of roasting on a open flame.

Ladewig · 14th June 2004, 06:58 AM

I voted yes because I cannot find a believable description of the afterlife that includes naps. I really enjoy an afternoon siesta and I would hate to give up that pleasure along with deep restful sleep. I like waking up refreshed. Being awake for eternity sounds so mentally fatiguing.

dann · 14th June 2004, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by steenkh
The question of whether to be happy that there is no afterlife is really dependent on what kind of afterlife.

The Bible's idea of an afterlife being singing the praise of God for all eternity, sounds so dull that I can be happy that there is no afterlife. The thought of rebirth gives me creeps because then I would have to go through a life all over again, and I might turn up to be an afterlife-believing idiot! And so on.
(...)
But I can not just say "Hey, I would be comforted by an afterlife" and then join a religion, because I still have my reasoning powers that tell me that afterlife and Santa Claus do no just exist because I would like them to.
Steen

OK, Steen. Let's rephrase the question: Do you find it cheerful that you cannot be blackmailed by the Christians and their psychopathic God (as described in the Old Testament) since you don't believe in their idea of an afterlife?
I think a lot of us do ...

And BillyJoe: You should never make an estimate of ideas based upon whether they make you cheerful or not. Why not consider whether they are true or false? The ability to do so makes me cheerful!

steenkh · 14th June 2004, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dann

OK, Steen. Let's rephrase the question: Do you find it cheerful that you cannot be blackmailed by the Christians and their psychopathic God (as described in the Old Testament) since you don't believe in their idea of an afterlife?
I think a lot of us do ...

It certainly cheers me up, but not so much that I would actually go to my death in a cheerful mood! If I am able to think, one of my last thoughts can very possibly be "Enjoy, you are going to have a once-in-a-lifetime experience!", but more probably I will be thinking "Dang, now I will never know the ending of that book I was reading".

Whether we are cheerful or not will depend more on what type of person we are than what we expect of the afterlife.

But just at the moment of death it might make one more cheerful if one has a strong faith in heaven or suchlike. The hallucinations that the brain produces when dying will probably be colored by the same factors that govern the hallucinations that we get when experiencing sleep paralysis. Believers see devils or become one with the universe, but my experiences with sleep paralysis has produced nothing of the sort. After the first surprise at what was happening, even though I was a child at the time, I decided it was not dangerous, and when it happened regularly, I learned to simply sleep it out instead of fighting it. This is indicative to me that when I die sometime I will probably die in my sleep rather than have an out-of-this-world experience - unless I am too excited to sleep! But my skeptical mind will in any case take the experience down to a more earthly level, and I might get disappointed that this is all I get!

To stay on subject, I might feel a certain glee that everybody will actually have much the same experience, although each person will interpret it in his own way. Pity we cannot come back and lie about how great it was!

Steen

Pixel42 · 14th June 2004, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BillyJoe
Pixel,

It's a big call, but I have to say that I don't believe you.

I am almost certain that you are avoiding the issue. Quoting theoretical physics is not a way to answer a question such as this but merely a way of avoiding answering it or, more pointedly, a way of avoiding really thinking about it.
I feel you may have a real problem coming to terms with your discovery that there is no afterlife. Of course, it's only a feeling and perhaps you can show me I am wrong.

BJ

BJ,

I am extremely offended by this. I never lie, and I assure you I have really thought about my beliefs. I have been an atheist since I was twelve, 38 years now, and "came to terms" with the consequences of my beliefs (or lack of them) a long time ago.

Just because you find the idea of there being no afterlife "devastating" doesn't mean other people do.

Polux · 14th June 2004, 01:09 PM

I replied NO assuming the afterlife would be cool.

Luceiia · 14th June 2004, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BillyJoe
Do you find the idea of there being no afterlife cheerful?

No, I find it neither cheerful nor uncheerful.

I similarly find the lack of JE's ability to speak to the dead neither cheerful nor uncheerful. Or the existence of Oz, or pink unicorns, or many other pretend things.

If anything, I suppose having an afterlife would eliminate the burden of knowing that anything vitally important to me had better get done by me asap or it may never get done at all, ever. No second chances, no slack. When we're done, we are done. So, at times (depending on my mood), the lack of an afterlife moves closer to uncheerful from the usual neutral.

Luceiia

7th sextile · 14th June 2004, 10:59 PM

(...uh,Luceiia-BillyJoe lives in Oz...)

I would say lack of belief in an afterlife doesn't make me
cheerful except in an indirect way-to paraphrase Ingersoll:
The time to be happy is now,the place to be happy is here.
Or that other great philosopher (U.S. Country Singer/song-
writer) Alan Jackson:might as well share/might as well smile/
life goes on for a little bitty while...

Anders W. Bonde · 15th June 2004, 01:45 AM

Billy Joe,

I'm just curious as to why the question was asked in the first place - and the way it was phrased. To me it looks a bit like a false dilemma along the lines of:

"Cheered by the thought of an afterlife = Sucker, you're so naïve that you really think there is an afterlife?" versus "Not cheered by the thought of an afterlife = Sucker, why torture yourself with not believing in an afterlife?"

So - I'll answer, but not vote, anyway - thus:

I don't personally care whether there is an afterlife or not. If there is, I'll deal with it then, if there isn't, then never mind. However, from what we presently know and don't know, there is absolutely no proof of an afterlife and an owerwhelming body of evidence against it - making the question rather moot.

steenkh · 15th June 2004, 02:08 AM

I do not think it was meant as a trick question. The original commentary text said:

Quote:

I fear he'll fall back into faith someday, given how sad he seems to find the idea of no afterlife. Me, I find the concept immensely cheering.

I think BillyJoe simply wanted to explore our reactions to this statement. Believers often talk about being comforted by the thought of the afterlife, so can we reverse that and assume that non-believers are saddened by the apparent lack of an afterlife?

What do we say to persons who want to convert us by offering the comfort of a life after death? Do we take the aggressive stance and say "How strange that you are comforted by the thought of an eternity in heaven, My knowledge that there is no afterlife cheers me up because I am bored by the sound of harps!".

I am fascinated with the very typical statement in the quote where a guy thinks he might start believing again because he thinks it is sad that there is no afterlife. Does he really mean believe? How can people shop around and pick a belief simply because it does not make them sad? As I said before, no matter how sad I am that Santa Claus does not exist, it is impossible for me to start believing in him! But apparently, many people can do just that.

Anders W. Bonde · 15th June 2004, 02:36 AM

Hi Steen,

I agree that BJ's question was most likely not intended to be a trick question - but I still considere it to something along the lines of a false dilemma, simply because of the lack of evidence for an afterlife and the owerwhelming body of evidence against it. Thus "the idea of there being no afterlife" is for me not an idea, but a fact, whereas the "concept of an afterlife" is mererely an idea based on wishful thinking. So I can't really say I am cheered or otherwise by a fact versus an idea.

steenkh · 15th June 2004, 02:57 AM

Hi Anders!

I see what you mean, but I think the logic false. It is usual to be cheered up when some future prospect is better than your current situation. The fact that there is no afterlife could be imagined to be a better prospect than one's current life if, for instance, one has an incurable disease, or is struck by grief. So you do not have to compare an idea to a fact when stating if you are cheerful or not.

And even if you do compare the idea and the fact, you can still find it fortunate that the idea is just an idea. The mind can easily make such comparisons, even though they are meaningless in the strict sense.

As I have said before, I am sad at the thought of death, simply because my mind cannot imagine what it is like to not exist, and instinctively I think it is better to exist than not to exist. Of course, once I do not exist, then I also do not prefer one state to the other, but for the moment I exist, and I definitely prefer it to stay that way.

This is something that each of us has to face, and we do it individually. Some are sad, some are cheerful, and then some look at it in a logical fashion and avoids false dilemmas.

If we go back to the "cheerfulness"-question, those who feel cheerful at the thought of death, do they also extend this cheerfulness to the death of other people, say the ones they love?

Anders W. Bonde · 15th June 2004, 03:53 AM

Hi Steen!

I agree that we can be cheered by thougts that are not based on fact, and that comparisons between facts and thoughts therefore may be irrelevant. I suppose I was just being a bit pendantic - my prejudice simply forced me to assume that the original post was based on the assumption that the disbelief in an afterlife must necessarily cause sadness. If that was not the intention, then I apologize - and I'll leave it at that.

Personally, I am not saddened by the thought of death - but I do find the thought of not living sad; all the things we'll no longer be able to experience because we run out of time. I do not fear death itself, I believe it is painless because it is "everything-less", but I do fear the prospect of a painful or a long, slow demise prior to death. I don't find the thought of an afterlife comforting simply because I find the idea of an afterlife absurd.

I don't really think anyone is cheered by the thought of thier own, or someone else's death, unless when the dying is suffering a long, painful demise (or suffer from abject depression). When my Mother died after a long illness I felt a sense of relief - not one of cheerfulness; I find that the word "relief" better describes the feeling than the word "cheerfulness". However, I also suppose that some people may actually feel cheerful about the demise of their enemies (percieved or real) - I distinctly remember the TV footage of of chanting and cheering religious zealots following the 9/11 massacre. Sickenening what a religious upbringing can do to people, sickening that parents and teachers teach thier children to hate others. Sorry, I may have wondered a bit off topic!

BillyJoe · 15th June 2004, 04:26 AM

Vikram,

Thanks for your reply and I'm honoured that your have chosen to make your first post here. Have you been lurking for a while?

I wasn't really interested in the evidence or not for an afterlife. I was merely posing a question to those who have come to the realization that there is no afterlife. And my question was "Did the realization that there is no afterlife make you feel cheerful".

You say you did NOT feel cheerful but accept it as a matter of fact.
I wonder how the idea of eternity implied by most versions of and afterlife affects you.

BillyJoe

BillyJoe · 15th June 2004, 04:34 AM

dann,

Quote:

Originally posted by dann
And BillyJoe: You should never make an estimate of ideas based upon whether they make you cheerful or not. Why not consider whether they are true or false? The ability to do so makes me cheerful!

I am interested in whether the idea of an afterlife is true or false but this is not the topic of this thread. Also, I am not making an estimate of ideas based upon whether they make me cheerful or not. I am simply asking my fellow posters whether their realization that there is no afterlife made them feel cheerful and, if so, why.

BJ

BillyJoe · 15th June 2004, 04:43 AM

Pixel,

Quote:

Originally posted by Pixel42
I am extremely offended by this. I never lie, and I assure you I have really thought about my beliefs. I have been an atheist since I was twelve, 38 years now, and "came to terms" with the consequences of my beliefs (or lack of them) a long time ago.

Sorry, I did not mean to offend.
I didn't actually mean that I thought you were lying, merely that I felt you were using theoretical physics to avoid facing up to the potentially devastating consequences of the realization that there is no afterlife. I anm looking for your emotional reaction, not your rationalizations. And again I'm not meaning to offend.

Quote:

Originally posted by Pixel42
.Just because you find the idea of there being no afterlife "devastating" doesn't mean other people do.

Actually, I haven't stated how this idea affected me.

BillyJoe

BillyJoe · 15th June 2004, 04:51 AM

Luceiia,

Thanks for your response.
But, oh yeah, Oz does exist, I assure you. In one of the southernmost States, there is a little township on the city outskirts, called Mooroolbark. That's where I live.

BillyJoe.

BillyJoe · 15th June 2004, 05:05 AM

Anders,

Quote:

Originally posted by Anders W. Bonde
I don't personally care whether there is an afterlife or not.

Can you explain why it doesn't affect you either way. It doesn't sound like an emotionally neutral question to me.

Quote:

Originally posted by Anders W. Bonde
However, from what we presently know and don't know, there is absolutely no proof of an afterlife and an owerwhelming body of evidence against it - making the question rather moot.

I am simply asking whether this realization that there is no afterlife made you feel cheerful.

BillyJoe

BillyJoe · 15th June 2004, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by steenkh
I think BillyJoe simply wanted to explore our reactions to this statement. Believers often talk about being comforted by the thought of the afterlife, so can we reverse that and assume that non-believers are saddened by the apparent lack of an afterlife?

Nearly. I am interested in what percentage of posters who felt cheerful and, more importantly, why they felt cheerful when they realized that there is no afterlife.

BillyJoe · 15th June 2004, 05:20 AM

Anders,

Quote:

Originally posted by Anders W. Bonde
.... "the idea of there being no afterlife" is for me not an idea, but a fact, whereas the "concept of an afterlife" is mererely an idea based on wishful thinking. So I can't really say I am cheered or otherwise by a fact versus an idea.

This only makes sense to me if you have never ever believed in an afterlife. Is that the case. If not, if you had to come to that realization at some point in your life, surely this must have had an emotional impact of some sort.

BillyJoe

BillyJoe · 15th June 2004, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by steenkh
If we go back to the "cheerfulness"-question, those who feel cheerful at the thought of death, do they also extend this cheerfulness to the death of other people, say the ones they love?

No. The question is not "Do you feel cheerful at the thought of death?" but "Did you feel cheerful when you realized that there is no afterlife?" Quite a different question I think.

steenkh · 15th June 2004, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BillyJoe
No. The question is not "Do you feel cheerful at the thought of death?" but "Did you feel cheerful when you realized that there is no afterlife?" Quite a different question I think.

I agree that it is a different question, but it is only now that I see that the question was exclusively for people who have believed in the afterlife at some point.

In which case I am not sure if I qualify, because as a small child I was a firm believer in God, but for reasons I cannot explain I never took the afterlife serious. Perhaps the vision of harp-playing angels in heaven was too improbable for me even at that early state. I accepted the teachings, but I did not truly believe. As I grew, I just grew out of my religion, and I did not really notice. There was no cheerfulness or sadness because there was no heaven (nobody really believe they will go to hell, despite the bible clearly stating that only a tiny fraction of us will go to heaven). The thought that there would be nothing after death just came naturally to me, and I did not feel any emotions at all.

Steen

sackett · 15th June 2004, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ladewig
I voted yes because I cannot find a believable description of the afterlife that includes naps. I really enjoy an afternoon siesta and I would hate to give up that pleasure along with deep restful sleep. I like waking up refreshed. Being awake for eternity sounds so mentally fatiguing.

Fact is, we have no descriptions of the afterlife at all. We have people's imaginings, and that's it.

But I think your remark touches on something important, even essential: we need our sleep, both literally and metaphorically. Humans aren't made for eternal things; we aren't cut out for infinity.

Let me do a little imagining: Maybe you can take a nap in the next world, who knows? But when you've had your nap you'll wake up, and face the endlessness of eternity again. Awakening to that would become hell for most of us -- no, I'm going to say for all of us.

Well, all right, maybe we can escape from the next world, who can say? That would be death, I think, and eventually we would all choose it. Yes indeedy, every sainted one of us. We need our sleep.

I don't feel quite cheerful at the thought of there being no afterlife, but I'm comforted.

Anders W. Bonde · 15th June 2004, 09:44 AM

Hi there, BillyJoe!

Your observation that I've NEVER believed in an afterlife is correct, and it's likely that this is the reason that I've never really attached any emotion to its existence or non-existence.

I do, however, for other reasons, tend to get emotianal with apolpgetic peddlers of the the concepts of reincarnation and karma, but that's something for another thread, I guess!

Anyway, thanks for your interest.

LostAngeles · 15th June 2004, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BillyJoe
I don't know about that Pixel.

In 1953, you were NOT unconcerned by your non-existence because you did not exist. Equally, in 2050, you WON'T be unconcerned about your non-existence because you won't exist.

I wonder if we could concentrate on the living present and future. Does the fact that there is no "Afterlife", affect you in any way positively or negatively at present. Do you expect it to affect you at any time in the future? For example, if and when you develop an incurable illness? Or on your death-bed?

BillyJoe

Half of his chromosones existed in the form of an unmatured egg in his mother's ovaries. So blah blah pre-conciousness woo blah blah Water of Life blah Adbomination blah. END WISE@$$.

An afterlife would be nice. I'd like to be reincarnated as a male or a cat or a tse tse fly or a Paris Hilton, but only if I could keep my memories as to the general experiences before hand. I'm curious as to what it's like being other things.

Of course, there could be nothing afterwards. Which is fine too, because I'll be dead and nothing and won't be able to care about the lack of an afterlife.

As I'm not dead yet, I can't really be concerned with the afterlife.

Although if there is a God and he does send people who do good but aren't Christians to Hell, then I'll be very, very happy to be tormented for all eternity. Because &(%$ that.

Vikram · 16th June 2004, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Vikram,

Thanks for your reply and I'm honoured that your have chosen to make your first post here. Have you been lurking for a while?

I wasn't really interested in the evidence or not for an afterlife. I was merely posing a question to those who have come to the realization that there is no afterlife. And my question was "Did the realization that there is no afterlife make you feel cheerful".

You say you did NOT feel cheerful but accept it as a matter of fact.
I wonder how the idea of eternity implied by most versions of and afterlife affects you.

BillyJoe

Hi BillyJoe,

Yes, I have been lurking around for some time. :-)

If we assume for the sake of argument that there exists a heaven, and also assume as true the standard religious doctrine about it being a place where one is privy to every happiness imaginable, I must admit that it's a concept that I find immensely cheering. I quite agree that a lot of people here might have opinions diametrically opposite to mine, but all I can say is - if after death, one were to be presented with the choice between completely ceasing to exist and going to a place where one could continue to exist in infinite happiness, how many would really choose the former? I, sure as hell, would choose the latter.

Another popular conception of the afterlife is that of rebirth. I personally love life, and if I had the chance to be reborn and live another lifetime on earth, I would certainly jump at it. Also, since I intend to live a good and honest life, I suppose I would be reborn as a human and not a cockroach.

13th June 2004, 03:04 AM	#1
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539	Great, no "Afterlife"? From this week's commentary...... Quote: [my boyfriend], like me, is now an atheist and skeptic — although I fear he'll fall back into faith someday, given how sad he seems to find the idea of no afterlife. Me, I find the concept immensely cheering. Do you find the idea of there being no afterlife cheerful?
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.

13th June 2004, 05:57 AM	#2
Luceiia Thinker Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 207	If you find it cheerful, please say why. Luceiia
Luceiia Thinker Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 207

13th June 2004, 09:51 PM	#4
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539	Quote: Originally posted by Luceiia If you find it cheerful, please say why. Hey, whose thread is this. Yes, please say why. How about you, Luceiia? How did you vote?
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.

13th June 2004, 10:04 PM	#5
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539	Quote: Originally posted by Pixel42 I've never understood why most people are more bothered by the fact that they will not exist after their deaths than they are by the fact that they didn't exist before they were born. I was born in 1953. I was completely unconcerned by my non-existence in 1950, and I confidently expect to be equally unconcerned by it in 2050. I don't know about that Pixel. In 1953, you were NOT unconcerned by your non-existence because you did not exist. Equally, in 2050, you WON'T be unconcerned about your non-existence because you won't exist. I wonder if we could concentrate on the living present and future. Does the fact that there is no "Afterlife", affect you in any way positively or negatively at present. Do you expect it to affect you at any time in the future? For example, if and when you develop an incurable illness? Or on your death-bed? BillyJoe
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.

13th June 2004, 10:10 PM	#6
LucyR Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,086	Quote: Originally posted by BillyJoe I don't know about that Pixel. I wonder if we could concentrate on the living present and future. Does the fact that there is no "Afterlife", affect you in any way positively or negatively at present. Actually, I find the thought comforting. No matter how bad it gets at least it ends. Hopefully.
LucyR Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,086

13th June 2004, 06:25 AM	#3
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Wiltshire, UK Posts: 4,218	I've never understood why most people are more bothered by the fact that they will not exist after their deaths than they are by the fact that they didn't exist before they were born. I was born in 1953. I was completely unconcerned by my non-existence in 1950, and I confidently expect to be equally unconcerned by it in 2050.

13th June 2004, 11:50 PM	#7
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Wiltshire, UK Posts: 4,218	Quote: Originally posted by BillyJoe I wonder if we could concentrate on the living present and future. Does the fact that there is no "Afterlife", affect you in any way positively or negatively at present. Do you expect it to affect you at any time in the future? For example, if and when you develop an incurable illness? Or on your death-bed? BillyJoe No. 'Past' 'present' and 'future' are illusions caused by the fact that we perceive time differently to the other three dimensions of our four-dimensional universe - our consciousness moves along it in one direction, so we don't experience it in total the way we experience the three spacial directions. Any physicist will tell you, however, that time is not really different to the other three dimensions. Saying "Tom lives in 1900, Dick in 2000 and Harry in 2100" is no different to saying "Tom lives in the US, Dick in England and Harry in Australia". My existence is finite in space and time, but the fact that I exist at all means that my existence is an indelible part of the Universe. That's why I say that I am as unconcerned about my non-existence in 2050 as I am about my non-existence in 1950. At this moment in 2004 there are millions of people who don't exist because they haven't been born yet who, in 100 years time, won't exist because they have lived and died. These people will, in 2054, find the prospect of their non-existence in 2104 more difficult to accept than the fact of their non-existence in 2004. But that's only because of their limited perception of time, compared to the other three dimensions.

14th June 2004, 02:39 AM	#8
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539	Quote: Originally posted by LucyR Actually, I find the thought comforting. No matter how bad it gets at least it ends. Hopefully. What if your life is a barrell of laughs? What if you're enjoying life to the fullest? Wouldn't you want there to be an afterlife? BJ
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.

14th June 2004, 02:52 AM	#9
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539	Pixel, It's a big call, but I have to say that I don't believe you. I am almost certain that you are avoiding the issue. Quoting theoretical physics is not a way to answer a question such as this but merely a way of avoiding answering it or, more pointedly, a way of avoiding really thinking about it. I feel you may have a real problem coming to terms with your discovery that there is no afterlife. Of course, it's only a feeling and perhaps you can show me I am wrong. BJ
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.

14th June 2004, 02:59 AM	#10
LucyR Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,086	Quote: Originally posted by BillyJoe What if your life is a barrell of laughs? What if you're enjoying life to the fullest? Wouldn't you want there to be an afterlife? BJ What if your life is a barrel of laughs? What if you're enjoying life to the full? Not if the people in it can't speak English.
LucyR Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,086

14th June 2004, 03:06 AM	#11
steenkh Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 3,450	The question of whether to be happy that there is no afterlife is really dependent on what kind of afterlife. The Bible's idea of an afterlife being singing the praise of God for all eternity, sounds so dull that I can be happy that there is no afterlife. The thought of rebirth gives me creeps because then I would have to go through a life all over again, and I might turn up to be an afterlife-believing idiot! And so on. But I am definitely not happy that there is no afterlife. My brain has never experienced not to exist, and it is almost impossible to accept that some day I will not be around anymore. I agree that having no afterlife should not be worse than having no beforelife, but it feels different. Mostly because the beforelife is over and done with, but the afterlife is still waiting not to exist. But I can not just say "Hey, I would be comforted by an afterlife" and then join a religion, because I still have my reasoning powers that tell me that afterlife and Santa Claus do no just exist because I would like them to. Steen
	__________________ Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none!

14th June 2004, 03:12 AM	#12
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539	Quote: Originally posted by LucyR What if your life is a barrel of laughs? What if you're enjoying life to the full? Not if the people in it can't speak English. Lucy, you are avoiding the issue also ..... .....but you are doing it on purpose aren't you?. You are fooling around? Right? But humour me, what do you really think or feel on this issue? BJ
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.

14th June 2004, 03:21 AM	#13
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539	Steen, Thanks for your reply. You have obviously thought this through both intellectually and emotionally. In particular, you have not avoided thinking about the potentially devastating impact of the realization that there is no afterlife. Thanks again. BJ
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.

14th June 2004, 05:58 AM	#14
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,947	Yep, cuz I'd hate to be in heaven around all the christians, or in hell around the wiccans.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

14th June 2004, 06:45 AM	#15
Vikram Muse Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 520	I'm a new member here and this is my first post. This topic really caught my eye because I’d had a similar discussion a while ago with a fellow skeptic friend of mine. I would personally be delighted if there were to be an afterlife, in much the same way that I would be delighted if I weren't a Muggle and could actually raise my wand and utter, "Expeliarmus" and have the person before me take a back flip and fall flat on the ground. That said, I will most certainly not sacrifice any of my rational thinking at the altar of this belief. The fact remains - there is no evidence whatsoever of the existence of the afterlife, and thus, any longing that I might have for the possibility of existing beyond the grave or pyre remains just that... a longing. However, the absence of an afterlife doesn’t really devastate me to any degree (though during contemplative moments, I, at the ripe old age of 23, find myself overwhelmed by the supreme tragedy of the fact that I won’t be around to find out whether Microsoft or Apple have the upper hand in 2100) and it doesn’t hamper my ability to live my life to the hilt. My answer to the poll is thus ‘No’. The absence of an afterlife is a concept that I accept with a neutral sense of factuality. Apples falling to the ground do not cheer me (unless I have an irresistible craving for cider) and similarly, the complete termination of my existence when my mortal body ceases to function doesn’t cheer me either (in fact, I have the strongest hunch that just before I die, I will remember something that I wanted to do before I died and didn't.) The presence of an afterlife, on the other hand, is something that I would find cheerful, with the slight assumption of course that this afterlife were to be enjoyable and not fraught with the iniquity of roasting on a open flame.
Vikram Muse Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 520

14th June 2004, 06:58 AM	#16
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,786	I voted yes because I cannot find a believable description of the afterlife that includes naps. I really enjoy an afternoon siesta and I would hate to give up that pleasure along with deep restful sleep. I like waking up refreshed. Being awake for eternity sounds so mentally fatiguing.
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

14th June 2004, 09:38 AM	#17
dann Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Frederiksberg (Copenhagen) Posts: 2,921	Quote: Originally posted by steenkh The question of whether to be happy that there is no afterlife is really dependent on what kind of afterlife. The Bible's idea of an afterlife being singing the praise of God for all eternity, sounds so dull that I can be happy that there is no afterlife. The thought of rebirth gives me creeps because then I would have to go through a life all over again, and I might turn up to be an afterlife-believing idiot! And so on. (...) But I can not just say "Hey, I would be comforted by an afterlife" and then join a religion, because I still have my reasoning powers that tell me that afterlife and Santa Claus do no just exist because I would like them to. Steen OK, Steen. Let's rephrase the question: Do you find it cheerful that you cannot be blackmailed by the Christians and their psychopathic God (as described in the Old Testament) since you don't believe in their idea of an afterlife? I think a lot of us do ... And BillyJoe: You should never make an estimate of ideas based upon whether they make you cheerful or not. Why not consider whether they are true or false? The ability to do so makes me cheerful!
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

14th June 2004, 10:19 AM	#18
steenkh Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 3,450	Quote: Originally posted by dann OK, Steen. Let's rephrase the question: Do you find it cheerful that you cannot be blackmailed by the Christians and their psychopathic God (as described in the Old Testament) since you don't believe in their idea of an afterlife? I think a lot of us do ... It certainly cheers me up, but not so much that I would actually go to my death in a cheerful mood! If I am able to think, one of my last thoughts can very possibly be "Enjoy, you are going to have a once-in-a-lifetime experience!", but more probably I will be thinking "Dang, now I will never know the ending of that book I was reading". Whether we are cheerful or not will depend more on what type of person we are than what we expect of the afterlife. But just at the moment of death it might make one more cheerful if one has a strong faith in heaven or suchlike. The hallucinations that the brain produces when dying will probably be colored by the same factors that govern the hallucinations that we get when experiencing sleep paralysis. Believers see devils or become one with the universe, but my experiences with sleep paralysis has produced nothing of the sort. After the first surprise at what was happening, even though I was a child at the time, I decided it was not dangerous, and when it happened regularly, I learned to simply sleep it out instead of fighting it. This is indicative to me that when I die sometime I will probably die in my sleep rather than have an out-of-this-world experience - unless I am too excited to sleep! But my skeptical mind will in any case take the experience down to a more earthly level, and I might get disappointed that this is all I get! To stay on subject, I might feel a certain glee that everybody will actually have much the same experience, although each person will interpret it in his own way. Pity we cannot come back and lie about how great it was! Steen
	__________________ Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none!

14th June 2004, 12:07 PM	#19
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Wiltshire, UK Posts: 4,218	Quote: Originally posted by BillyJoe Pixel, It's a big call, but I have to say that I don't believe you. I am almost certain that you are avoiding the issue. Quoting theoretical physics is not a way to answer a question such as this but merely a way of avoiding answering it or, more pointedly, a way of avoiding really thinking about it. I feel you may have a real problem coming to terms with your discovery that there is no afterlife. Of course, it's only a feeling and perhaps you can show me I am wrong. BJ BJ, I am extremely offended by this. I never lie, and I assure you I have really thought about my beliefs. I have been an atheist since I was twelve, 38 years now, and "came to terms" with the consequences of my beliefs (or lack of them) a long time ago. Just because you find the idea of there being no afterlife "devastating" doesn't mean other people do.

14th June 2004, 01:09 PM	#20
Polux Thinker Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 153	I replied NO assuming the afterlife would be cool.
Polux Thinker Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 153

14th June 2004, 06:26 PM	#21
Luceiia Thinker Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 207	Re: Great, no "Afterlife"? Quote: Originally posted by BillyJoe Do you find the idea of there being no afterlife cheerful? No, I find it neither cheerful nor uncheerful. I similarly find the lack of JE's ability to speak to the dead neither cheerful nor uncheerful. Or the existence of Oz, or pink unicorns, or many other pretend things. If anything, I suppose having an afterlife would eliminate the burden of knowing that anything vitally important to me had better get done by me asap or it may never get done at all, ever. No second chances, no slack. When we're done, we are done. So, at times (depending on my mood), the lack of an afterlife moves closer to uncheerful from the usual neutral. Luceiia
Luceiia Thinker Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 207

14th June 2004, 10:59 PM	#22
7th sextile Muse Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Hudson Valley NY Posts: 767	(...uh,Luceiia-BillyJoe lives in Oz...) I would say lack of belief in an afterlife doesn't make me cheerful except in an indirect way-to paraphrase Ingersoll: The time to be happy is now,the place to be happy is here. Or that other great philosopher (U.S. Country Singer/song- writer) Alan Jackson:might as well share/might as well smile/ life goes on for a little bitty while...
	__________________ Remember the misses!

15th June 2004, 01:45 AM	#23
Anders W. Bonde Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: East Jutland, Denmark Posts: 467	Billy Joe, I'm just curious as to why the question was asked in the first place - and the way it was phrased. To me it looks a bit like a false dilemma along the lines of: "Cheered by the thought of an afterlife = Sucker, you're so naïve that you really think there is an afterlife?" versus "Not cheered by the thought of an afterlife = Sucker, why torture yourself with not believing in an afterlife?" So - I'll answer, but not vote, anyway - thus: I don't personally care whether there is an afterlife or not. If there is, I'll deal with it then, if there isn't, then never mind. However, from what we presently know and don't know, there is absolutely no proof of an afterlife and an owerwhelming body of evidence against it - making the question rather moot.
	__________________ Anders W. Bonde

15th June 2004, 02:08 AM	#24
steenkh Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 3,450	I do not think it was meant as a trick question. The original commentary text said: Quote: I fear he'll fall back into faith someday, given how sad he seems to find the idea of no afterlife. Me, I find the concept immensely cheering. I think BillyJoe simply wanted to explore our reactions to this statement. Believers often talk about being comforted by the thought of the afterlife, so can we reverse that and assume that non-believers are saddened by the apparent lack of an afterlife? What do we say to persons who want to convert us by offering the comfort of a life after death? Do we take the aggressive stance and say "How strange that you are comforted by the thought of an eternity in heaven, My knowledge that there is no afterlife cheers me up because I am bored by the sound of harps!". I am fascinated with the very typical statement in the quote where a guy thinks he might start believing again because he thinks it is sad that there is no afterlife. Does he really mean believe? How can people shop around and pick a belief simply because it does not make them sad? As I said before, no matter how sad I am that Santa Claus does not exist, it is impossible for me to start believing in him! But apparently, many people can do just that.
	__________________ Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none!

15th June 2004, 02:36 AM	#25
Anders W. Bonde Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: East Jutland, Denmark Posts: 467	Hi Steen, I agree that BJ's question was most likely not intended to be a trick question - but I still considere it to something along the lines of a false dilemma, simply because of the lack of evidence for an afterlife and the owerwhelming body of evidence against it. Thus "the idea of there being no afterlife" is for me not an idea, but a fact, whereas the "concept of an afterlife" is mererely an idea based on wishful thinking. So I can't really say I am cheered or otherwise by a fact versus an idea.
	__________________ Anders W. Bonde

15th June 2004, 02:57 AM	#26
steenkh Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 3,450	Hi Anders! I see what you mean, but I think the logic false. It is usual to be cheered up when some future prospect is better than your current situation. The fact that there is no afterlife could be imagined to be a better prospect than one's current life if, for instance, one has an incurable disease, or is struck by grief. So you do not have to compare an idea to a fact when stating if you are cheerful or not. And even if you do compare the idea and the fact, you can still find it fortunate that the idea is just an idea. The mind can easily make such comparisons, even though they are meaningless in the strict sense. As I have said before, I am sad at the thought of death, simply because my mind cannot imagine what it is like to not exist, and instinctively I think it is better to exist than not to exist. Of course, once I do not exist, then I also do not prefer one state to the other, but for the moment I exist, and I definitely prefer it to stay that way. This is something that each of us has to face, and we do it individually. Some are sad, some are cheerful, and then some look at it in a logical fashion and avoids false dilemmas. If we go back to the "cheerfulness"-question, those who feel cheerful at the thought of death, do they also extend this cheerfulness to the death of other people, say the ones they love?
	__________________ Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none!

15th June 2004, 03:53 AM	#27
Anders W. Bonde Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: East Jutland, Denmark Posts: 467	Hi Steen! I agree that we can be cheered by thougts that are not based on fact, and that comparisons between facts and thoughts therefore may be irrelevant. I suppose I was just being a bit pendantic - my prejudice simply forced me to assume that the original post was based on the assumption that the disbelief in an afterlife must necessarily cause sadness. If that was not the intention, then I apologize - and I'll leave it at that. Personally, I am not saddened by the thought of death - but I do find the thought of not living sad; all the things we'll no longer be able to experience because we run out of time. I do not fear death itself, I believe it is painless because it is "everything-less", but I do fear the prospect of a painful or a long, slow demise prior to death. I don't find the thought of an afterlife comforting simply because I find the idea of an afterlife absurd. I don't really think anyone is cheered by the thought of thier own, or someone else's death, unless when the dying is suffering a long, painful demise (or suffer from abject depression). When my Mother died after a long illness I felt a sense of relief - not one of cheerfulness; I find that the word "relief" better describes the feeling than the word "cheerfulness". However, I also suppose that some people may actually feel cheerful about the demise of their enemies (percieved or real) - I distinctly remember the TV footage of of chanting and cheering religious zealots following the 9/11 massacre. Sickenening what a religious upbringing can do to people, sickening that parents and teachers teach thier children to hate others. Sorry, I may have wondered a bit off topic!
	__________________ Anders W. Bonde

15th June 2004, 04:26 AM	#28
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539	Vikram, Thanks for your reply and I'm honoured that your have chosen to make your first post here. Have you been lurking for a while? I wasn't really interested in the evidence or not for an afterlife. I was merely posing a question to those who have come to the realization that there is no afterlife. And my question was "Did the realization that there is no afterlife make you feel cheerful". You say you did NOT feel cheerful but accept it as a matter of fact. I wonder how the idea of eternity implied by most versions of and afterlife affects you. BillyJoe
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.

15th June 2004, 04:34 AM	#29
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539	dann, Quote: Originally posted by dann And BillyJoe: You should never make an estimate of ideas based upon whether they make you cheerful or not. Why not consider whether they are true or false? The ability to do so makes me cheerful! I am interested in whether the idea of an afterlife is true or false but this is not the topic of this thread. Also, I am not making an estimate of ideas based upon whether they make me cheerful or not. I am simply asking my fellow posters whether their realization that there is no afterlife made them feel cheerful and, if so, why. BJ
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.

15th June 2004, 04:43 AM	#30
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539	Pixel, Quote: Originally posted by Pixel42 I am extremely offended by this. I never lie, and I assure you I have really thought about my beliefs. I have been an atheist since I was twelve, 38 years now, and "came to terms" with the consequences of my beliefs (or lack of them) a long time ago. Sorry, I did not mean to offend. I didn't actually mean that I thought you were lying, merely that I felt you were using theoretical physics to avoid facing up to the potentially devastating consequences of the realization that there is no afterlife. I anm looking for your emotional reaction, not your rationalizations. And again I'm not meaning to offend. Quote: Originally posted by Pixel42 .Just because you find the idea of there being no afterlife "devastating" doesn't mean other people do. Actually, I haven't stated how this idea affected me. BillyJoe
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.

15th June 2004, 04:51 AM	#31
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539	Luceiia, Thanks for your response. But, oh yeah, Oz does exist, I assure you. In one of the southernmost States, there is a little township on the city outskirts, called Mooroolbark. That's where I live. BillyJoe.
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.

15th June 2004, 05:05 AM	#32
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539	Anders, Quote: Originally posted by Anders W. Bonde I don't personally care whether there is an afterlife or not. Can you explain why it doesn't affect you either way. It doesn't sound like an emotionally neutral question to me. Quote: Originally posted by Anders W. Bonde However, from what we presently know and don't know, there is absolutely no proof of an afterlife and an owerwhelming body of evidence against it - making the question rather moot. I am simply asking whether this realization that there is no afterlife made you feel cheerful. BillyJoe
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.

15th June 2004, 05:15 AM	#33
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539	Quote: Originally posted by steenkh I think BillyJoe simply wanted to explore our reactions to this statement. Believers often talk about being comforted by the thought of the afterlife, so can we reverse that and assume that non-believers are saddened by the apparent lack of an afterlife? Nearly. I am interested in what percentage of posters who felt cheerful and, more importantly, why they felt cheerful when they realized that there is no afterlife.
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.

15th June 2004, 05:20 AM	#34
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539	Anders, Quote: Originally posted by Anders W. Bonde .... "the idea of there being no afterlife" is for me not an idea, but a fact, whereas the "concept of an afterlife" is mererely an idea based on wishful thinking. So I can't really say I am cheered or otherwise by a fact versus an idea. This only makes sense to me if you have never ever believed in an afterlife. Is that the case. If not, if you had to come to that realization at some point in your life, surely this must have had an emotional impact of some sort. BillyJoe
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.

15th June 2004, 05:25 AM	#35
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539	Quote: Originally posted by steenkh If we go back to the "cheerfulness"-question, those who feel cheerful at the thought of death, do they also extend this cheerfulness to the death of other people, say the ones they love? No. The question is not "Do you feel cheerful at the thought of death?" but "Did you feel cheerful when you realized that there is no afterlife?" Quite a different question I think.
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.