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Old 31st October 2012, 09:54 PM   #81
kerikiwi
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Originally Posted by Deranged View Post
"I doubt that." I am positive that when people have walked up to a woman on a stool in Key West to see what she has to say and she quietly says, "hold your hands above mine' they would do it without hesitation. Are you that suspicious and uptight?
Many people wouldn't walk up to the woman at all, so your sample is severely skewed in favour of the already credulous and gullible.
It has nothing to do with being suspicious or uptight, but everything to do with not being gullible and credulous.
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Old 1st November 2012, 01:13 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
There is no firm definition, given that it's used as something of a catch-all for a number of somewhat similar concepts. However, Wiki has a decent description. For a more specific example of the concepts included, Qi works.
I was asking how you were defining it in the sentence that you typed.
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Old 1st November 2012, 02:01 AM   #83
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I was in Poona when Osho (aka Rajneesh... he adopted the name Osho later) was there. One of his followers offered me a massage, and I accepted... and was very disappointed when he started waving his hands over me instead of massaging me. I felt absolutely nothing.

Then there was Emily Rosa who proved that several "energy" or "touch" (which is actually non touch) "therapists" could not tell whether or not her hand was present above theirs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY6lvpanGmw
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Old 1st November 2012, 03:06 AM   #84
Aridas
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I was asking how you were defining it in the sentence that you typed.
In a very general way that was represented fairly well by how I already answered and the links I provided. Had I meant something rather different, I would have said something rather different.

I would think that the point that I was specifically making, though, should be fairly obvious. Reiki is one of the many practices that fall under that description and has a relatively distinct set of characteristics and claimed results that were not matched by the descriptions given of the event in any but a very superficial way.

I get the feeling that your goal with this line of questioning, however, is to attempt to debunk the various concepts claimed to be behind energy healing and manipulation techniques, in the vague sense. Just go ahead, if you want to do so. I don't feel like making arguments for or against them, rather, I simply would prefer that terms and concepts are used correctly.
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Old 1st November 2012, 03:13 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
In a very general way that was represented fairly well by how I already answered and the links I provided.
So the answer, then, is somewhere between "very vaguely" and "not at all".

Quote:
I get the feeling that your goal with this line of questioning, however, is to attempt to debunk the various concepts claimed to be behind energy healing and manipulation techniques, in the vague sense.
My goal was to see if you could define the word "energy" in the context in which you were using it. It seems that the answer was "no".
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Old 1st November 2012, 03:55 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Deranged View Post
"I doubt that." I am positive that when people have walked up to a woman on a stool in Key West to see what she has to say and she quietly says, "hold your hands above mine' they would do it without hesitation. Are you that suspicious and uptight?
You're wrong.
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Old 1st November 2012, 04:47 AM   #87
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Quote:
I really thought JREF would tell me what happened to me.
Talk about looking for love in all the wrong places .

Quote:
She said "hold your hands above mine face down" and I simply complied. I can't envision anyone thinking , "I'm going to feel something now!"
Then you've lived a sheltered life. That's what suggestion is, to get some message across without articulating the message. It often works, especially since anything whatsoever that happens next could have been the "message."

Perhaps you would have admired how lovely your hands look in the rosy glow of a Key West sunset. A small margarita might have helped that along just as easily as it did with feeling all tingly when you changed the static pressure in your hands.

The lady would still have asked for a donation. That is, after all, why she's there. Speaking of which,

Quote:
Since it is so unbelievable, I realize just how special it was. How rare.
Say what? How many times an evening, that evening, do you suppose this woman touched someone's life? For an unspecified fee. She didn't set up her stool just for you, and you weren't the only one to discover that they were a healer, either.

In fact, here's an idea. There must be some charity down your way with some kind of event with booths. Volunteer to be the "powerful hands" lady. Just do the patter you remember from Key West. Don't forget the "You're a healer..." line for the women - men maybe should get something a little more butch. (Brush your hand against his carelessly. He'll make room for your hand, moving his aside. "Ah, you shy away from touch, as if you might hurt someone with your quiet power...")

Anyway, you'll do great. You'll have the answer to what happened to you, and the charity will have something to show for it.

Last edited by eight bits; 1st November 2012 at 04:48 AM.
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Old 1st November 2012, 05:32 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
So the answer, then, is somewhere between "very vaguely" and "not at all".



My goal was to see if you could define the word "energy" in the context in which you were using it. It seems that the answer was "no".

Given the variety of concepts covered by the esoteric uses of the word and the simple fact that I wasn't trying to give any of them special treatment? Given that many of them are contradictory? Given that many, if not most, of them make unfalsifiable claims of all kinds?

Sure. I probably could come up with a short definition, if I actually cared, but it would be vague to the point of uselessness for direct analysis, given, as noted, the sheer number of concepts that people have tossed under that general banner.

But, alright, I'll bite out of annoyance, first with something closer to an explanation than a definition. When dealing with "energy manipulation" for whatever purpose, there obviously has to be something that can be manipulated, generally with one's "willpower," "desire," and/or "actions (usually in an indirect sense such as saying the words of a spell to convince lightning to hit a particular tree or the ever popular laying on hands with the proper intent to heal in some way)," whether it be physical or non-physical, particle, waveform, feelings that somehow are separate from a being that can be shown to be alive in a normal sense, all kinds of underlying forces of reality that are and do various things, etc. Thus as a definition, "energy" in the context of the "energy manipulation," would basically be "something, often intangible, that can be affected by a person, usually consciously, in ways that generally do not logically proceed from the laws of physics as we know them."
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Old 1st November 2012, 06:39 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
But, alright, I'll bite out of annoyance, first with something closer to an explanation than a definition. When dealing with "energy manipulation" for whatever purpose, there obviously has to be something that can be manipulated, generally with one's "willpower," "desire," and/or "actions (usually in an indirect sense such as saying the words of a spell to convince lightning to hit a particular tree or the ever popular laying on hands with the proper intent to heal in some way)," whether it be physical or non-physical, particle, waveform, feelings that somehow are separate from a being that can be shown to be alive in a normal sense, all kinds of underlying forces of reality that are and do various things, etc. Thus as a definition, "energy" in the context of the "energy manipulation," would basically be "something, often intangible, that can be affected by a person, usually consciously, in ways that generally do not logically proceed from the laws of physics as we know them."
Which is of course logically incoherent.
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Old 1st November 2012, 06:42 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Thus as a definition, "energy" in the context of the "energy manipulation," would basically be "something, often intangible, that can be affected by a person, usually consciously, in ways that generally do not logically proceed from the laws of physics as we know them."
You're right, vague to the point of useless.
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Old 1st November 2012, 06:45 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Deranged View Post
I had one small Margarita but I was sober. You think I was drunk? haha!! I'm so discouraged. I really thought JREF would tell me what happened to me.
Oh, well that is easy. As long as you like multiple-choice quizzes. It's some combination of these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_memory_biases
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucination
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Old 1st November 2012, 09:13 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Deranged View Post
I had one small Margarita but I was sober. You think I was drunk? haha!! I'm so discouraged.
Actually, there are more . . . vigorous things available in that neck of the woods.

I meant those things.
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Old 1st November 2012, 02:55 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Wait wait!

You were playing the congas with the rest of the loafers on the pier and your hands went numb!

No charge!
While on vacation you label it loafing? Weird.
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Old 1st November 2012, 03:58 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Deranged View Post
While on vacation you label it loafing? Weird.
Aha, so you were playing the congas.

My hands feel all sort of tingly after a bit of playing, so I see what you may have been experiencing.
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Old 2nd November 2012, 04:35 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by PixyMisa View Post
Which is of course logically incoherent.
Not really. There are criticisms that can be made reasonably, but I don't think that logically incoherent is one of them, in this case. Poorly based assumptions that the logic for most of them depend upon, on the other hand? Probably.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
You're right, vague to the point of useless.
Would you expect something different when dealing with an umbrella term for many non-scientific and pseudo-scientific beliefs, concepts, and practices?
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Old 2nd November 2012, 06:44 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by asydhouse View Post
Then there was Emily Rosa who proved that several "energy" or "touch" (which is actually non touch) "therapists" could not tell whether or not her hand was present above theirs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY6lvpanGmw

Damn, you beat me too it before I could make some kind of 'That sounds like a good trick to play on a nine year old.....Oh wait..." type comment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Rosa

Doesn't the set up in this test (based on the TT claims of a Human Energy Field) sound remarkably similar to the set up described in the OP? I wonder how that would have worked out under this simple but effective test protocol?
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Old 2nd November 2012, 12:25 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Sledge View Post
That isn't the point that was made. Do you have reading comprehension problems?
Not sure. I know I do read too fast.
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Old 2nd November 2012, 12:26 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Actually, there are more . . . vigorous things available in that neck of the woods.

I meant those things.
No; I don't use drugs.
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Old 2nd November 2012, 12:30 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
she might have had her foot on a battery , it's obviously some good old fashioned magic trick
Her foot on a battery and the tingling went to her hands. Sounds dangerous and quite unfamiliar. No; sounds stupid actually.
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Old 2nd November 2012, 12:39 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Deranged View Post
Her foot on a battery and the tingling went to her hands. Sounds dangerous and quite unfamiliar. No; sounds stupid actually.
When you have a charge of static electricity from walking with your feet on carpeting, then touch something or someone with your finger, what happens? Does that sound stupid too?
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Old 2nd November 2012, 12:39 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Deranged View Post
Her foot on a battery and the tingling went to her hands. Sounds dangerous and quite unfamiliar. No; sounds stupid actually.
Wasn't this person, was it?
http://www.solaya.net/index.html
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Old 2nd November 2012, 12:42 PM   #102
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Page 1: Here's an interesting thing that happened.

Page 5: How dare you insult my god!
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Old 2nd November 2012, 12:49 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Page 1: Here's an interesting thing that happened.

Page 5: How dare you insult my god!
thumbs up!!!


(or should I say PALMS UP!)
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Old 2nd November 2012, 03:46 PM   #104
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" probably using static electricity." That would have hurt. It would have made me jump. This felt like hundreds of fingernail tips gently touching my hands continuously. That wouldn't hurt but might remind some of static electricity.
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Old 2nd November 2012, 03:50 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Wasn't this person, was it?
http://www.solaya.net/index.html
o m g Resume . YES, THAT IS HER !! I'M SHOCKED RIGHT NOW!! Pardon the pun. Great work. I am really excited. At first I thought, that looks like her except she's a blonde. But when I saw MALLORY SQUARE I knew it. Wow!!!
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Old 2nd November 2012, 03:52 PM   #106
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I would think that web page would answer any and all questions regarding the validity of any claims of the paranormal. It's just silly!
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Old 2nd November 2012, 03:58 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
I would think that web page would answer any and all questions regarding the validity of any claims of the paranormal. It's just silly!
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Old 2nd November 2012, 04:06 PM   #108
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why do so many of these woo sites have the web design of a page from 1992? good lord
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Old 2nd November 2012, 04:14 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
why do so many of these woo sites have the web design of a page from 1992? good lord
Maybe she doesn't have the . . . energy to update the design.
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Old 2nd November 2012, 04:18 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Maybe she doesn't have the . . . energy to update the design.


I don't know whether to boo and throw things or applaud
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Old 2nd November 2012, 05:50 PM   #111
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YOU are wrong.
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Old 2nd November 2012, 06:07 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Deranged View Post
YOU are wrong.
Is your quote button broken?
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Old 2nd November 2012, 08:35 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Not really. There are criticisms that can be made reasonably, but I don't think that logically incoherent is one of them, in this case.
Sorry, but it's completely incoherent:

Quote:
"something, often intangible, that can be affected by a person, usually consciously, in ways that generally do not logically proceed from the laws of physics as we know them."
It's intangible, but it has a physical effect? No, I don't think so.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 01:42 AM   #114
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Deranged, your story gets more fanciful as you go. I don't see anything in your OP about "dynamite".



Originally Posted by Deranged View Post
When I was Agnostic I ran into a lady in Key West . I knew nothing at all about Reiki and didn't understand what had happened.
She told me to hold my hands six inches over her upturned hands and right away I felt static electricity flowing from her hands to mine and I said, "what is THAT?" Soon, we walked off. This was in Mallory Square. It wasn't something most people could deny or forget about.
What do you think of Reiki ? Was it something else? She never mentioned God.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 04:21 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by PixyMisa View Post
Sorry, but it's completely incoherent:


It's intangible, but it has a physical effect? No, I don't think so.


Perhaps you should look up the definition of the word incoherent? Your type of complaint doesn't fit the word that you're trying to use to describe it.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 04:46 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
When you have a charge of static electricity from walking with your feet on carpeting, then touch something or someone with your finger, what happens? Does that sound stupid too?
This was my line of thinking too, carlitos. All humans have an electro-magnetic field and I believe there are various ways you can build up the charge in various parts of your body. This is not magic, not god, not Reiki-deiki woodoo voodoo, but something that we know through science.

Could someone with a little more science know-how elaborate further, perhaps?
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Old 3rd November 2012, 05:08 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Perhaps you should look up the definition of the word incoherent? Your type of complaint doesn't fit the word that you're trying to use to describe it.
I have. It does. Something with a physical effect is by definition intangible.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 05:47 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by PixyMisa View Post
I have. It does. Something with a physical effect is by definition intangible.
I'll assume you mean tangible, to give you the benefit of the doubt. It's worth pointing out that nowhere in the rough definition was it said that there was a physical effect, which, alone, puts your position into question. That is, of course, a minor side note. I was going to present gravity as an example of something that can be considered intangible, in the sense that I was using the word, but is certainly real in its effects, but it appears that the consensus is that gravity is tangible, so, I will admit that I may have incorrectly chosen the word intangible to describe the concept. That said, I would still suggest that the problem you're speaking of rests soundly with the assumptions that the systems in questions are based upon rather with either an issue with the understandability of the definition or its internal coherence.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 06:30 AM   #119
joesixpack
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True story related to electric like feelings, I was at the airport, waiting to board my plane and a woman set her carry-on bag in the seat to my right and asked "Are you going to be here for a bit?", to which I said "Yes".

"Could you watch my bag for me"

"Sure" I said, thinking she was going to go to the ticket counter to get her boarding pass.

She then walked off down the concourse and disappeared into the crowd. I sat there with a strangers bag next to me. This was less than a month after the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City. As my mind started to process the situation, the entire right side of my body began to tingle, as if there were some sort of electrical charge near me. It was a very intense and undeniably real sensation to me, but it was obviously not the result of any external stimuli. It was entirely the result of my own thoughts.

Clearly, our own thoughts can give us feelings that are as real seeming as actual tactile sensations. I suspect that reiki is much the same. It is the expectation of feeling that gives us the sensation. If you had been blindfolded, I doubt that you would have been able to tell if she had placed her hands above yours or not.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 07:10 AM   #120
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The lady behind the counter at the gym was keen to tell me about her Reiki session the other week.

Apparently, she had blocked chakras.

I advised her to eat a curry, that would sort out any blockages.



I did wonder though - how many people go for a first-time Reiki sesh and are told "Your chakras are in tip-top condition, no need for a follow-up treatment"?


Sorry for the slight derail.
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