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joesixpack · 3rd November 2012, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by Duffy Moon

I did wonder though - how many people go for a first-time Reiki sesh and are told "Your chakras are in tip-top condition, no need for a follow-up treatment"?

Sorry for the slight derail.

Of course this never happens. The world is so polluted and full of "toxins" that everyone's chakras are blocked. It's amazing that we've been able to double our life expectancies over the last couple of centuries without unblocking our chakras.

Deranged · 3rd November 2012, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by joesixpack

Of course this never happens. The world is so polluted and full of "toxins" that everyone's chakras are blocked. It's amazing that we've been able to double our life expectancies over the last couple of centuries without unblocking our chakras.

I have no idea if this is legit but last week I took an online Chakra "test" by answering a bunch of questions. Every single Chakra was in perfect condition. And her "job" is to improve Chakras. I have no idea what this is all about but I got an A+. LOL!!!

Deranged · 3rd November 2012, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by carlitos

When you have a charge of static electricity from walking with your feet on carpeting, then touch something or someone with your finger, what happens? Does that sound stupid too?

That hurts !!! I get that in the grocery store and I hate it!!

Deranged · 3rd November 2012, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by Resume

Aha, so you were playing the congas.

My hands feel all sort of tingly after a bit of playing, so I see what you may have been experiencing.

What is a conga? Drums of some sort?

Deranged · 3rd November 2012, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by resume

wasn't this person, was it?
http://www.solaya.net/index.html

yes. That is absolutely the woman i met. Wooooow.

Resume · 3rd November 2012, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by Deranged

What is a conga? Drums of some sort?

Yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conga

They're played on the pier and in the square, or used to be.

Sledge · 3rd November 2012, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Deranged

o m g Resume . YES, THAT IS HER !! I'M SHOCKED RIGHT NOW!! Pardon the pun. Great work. I am really excited. At first I thought, that looks like her except she's a blonde. But when I saw MALLORY SQUARE I knew it. Wow!!!

Originally Posted by Deranged

yes. That is absolutely the woman i met. Wooooow.

Why have you responded to the same post twice? You've done it a few times now.

Resume · 3rd November 2012, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by Deranged

o m g Resume . YES, THAT IS HER !! I'M SHOCKED RIGHT NOW!! Pardon the pun. Great work. I am really excited. At first I thought, that looks like her except she's a blonde. But when I saw MALLORY SQUARE I knew it. Wow!!!

Take a close read of the website then tell me if you're buying anything that person is selling.

Aridas · 4th November 2012, 01:49 AM

Originally Posted by Deranged

What is a conga? Drums of some sort?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conga

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conga_line

ETA: Looks like I was beaten to the punch. Conga lines are more fun for a lot of people, though.

pakeha · 4th November 2012, 03:15 AM

Originally Posted by Resume

Wasn't this person, was it?
http://www.solaya.net/index.html

Oh, well done, indeed.

Stray Cat · 5th November 2012, 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by Aridas

That said, I would still suggest that the problem you're speaking of rests soundly with the assumptions that the systems in questions are based upon rather with either an issue with the understandability of the definition or its internal coherence.

And I would suggest that the problem is that you misuse the word "energy" in the same way as these other "systems".

Energy can be objectively measured, if it can't be objectively measured, it aint energy so stop calling it that.

Aridas · 5th November 2012, 01:51 AM

Originally Posted by Stray Cat

And I would suggest that the problem is that you misuse the word "energy" in the same way as these other "systems".

Energy can be objectively measured, if it can't be objectively measured, it aint energy so stop calling it that.

Heh. I'm merely using common usage. A form of common usage that I already provided a link describing. Don't like it? I'd suggest taking it up with a much different audience.

23_Tauri · 5th November 2012, 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by Aridas

Heh. I'm merely using common usage. A form of common usage that I already provided a link describing. Don't like it? I'd suggest taking it up with a much different audience.

Aridas, do you believe that this 'subtle energy' (aka chi, prana, life force etc) that cannot be detected or measured exists? If so, why do you believe that it exists?

Aridas · 5th November 2012, 03:21 AM

Originally Posted by 23_Tauri

Aridas, do you believe that this 'subtle energy' (aka chi, prana, life force etc) that cannot be detected or measured exists? If so, why do you believe that it exists?

At what point did I say either that it exists or that I believe that it exists?

Unless you're arguing that one has to believe in something to be able to understand the concepts involved and/or discuss it?

A bit more directly... my position is, technically, neither. If something is unfalsifiable, like most of the versions, I tend to allow it as a possibility, but consider it to be meaningless. It's basically an extension of ignosticism to other, similar concepts.

23_Tauri · 5th November 2012, 03:22 AM

Originally Posted by Aridas

At what point did I say either that it exists or that I believe that it exists?

You didn't, that's why I asked you the question.

Would you like to answer it please? A yes or a no will do fine. Thanks!

pakeha · 5th November 2012, 03:24 AM

Originally Posted by Deranged

I have no idea if this is legit but last week I took an online Chakra "test" by answering a bunch of questions. Every single Chakra was in perfect condition. And her "job" is to improve Chakras. I have no idea what this is all about but I got an A+. LOL!!!

Which chakra system did you use?

Aridas · 5th November 2012, 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by 23_Tauri

You didn't, that's why I asked you the question.

Would you like to answer it please? A yes or a no will do fine. Thanks!

I did, in an edit to add more, given that no one else had posted when I started the edit and it was a fairly quick one. My apologies, I had initially misunderstood what you said, hence the answer that wasn't direct. On rereading, I saw my error and attempted to correct it quickly.

Still, to repeat the most relevant part...

A bit more directly... my position is, technically, neither. If something is unfalsifiable, like most of the versions, I tend to allow it as a possibility, but consider it to be meaningless. It's basically an extension of ignosticism to other, similar concepts.

To add to that, slightly, then, so I'm not just repeating myself, I allow the possibility of one or more being the case, if they're possible in the first place, but don't see good reason to assume or conclude that any of them actually are the case.

23_Tauri · 5th November 2012, 04:56 AM

Originally Posted by Aridas

A bit more directly... my position is, technically, neither.

Technically?

Originally Posted by Aridas

If something is unfalsifiable, like most of the versions,

Most versions? Most versions of what? Energy? There's only one scientifically accepted 'version' of energy, and that is the ability to do work, usually measured in joules. What other versions are you referring to by 'most'? Do you mean anything that falls under the umbrella of 'spiritual energy'?

Originally Posted by Aridas

I tend to allow it as a possibility, but consider it to be meaningless. It's basically an extension of ignosticism to other, similar concepts.

To add to that, slightly, then, so I'm not just repeating myself, I allow the possibility of one or more being the case, if they're possible in the first place, but don't see good reason to assume or conclude that any of them actually are the case.

Did you say earlier that you were a Reiki healer? Therefore, I assume this is your job (or at least one of them). Are you telling me that you hold a job manipulating something about which the existence of which you are undecided? Or do you do your Reiki healing on people knowing full well at the back of your mind that it could just all be placebo effect? If so, does that not bother you?

Or to give an analogy, would an agnostic preach to a church congregation about the existence of god?

Aridas · 5th November 2012, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by 23_Tauri

Most versions? Most versions of what? Energy? There's only one scientifically accepted 'version' of energy, and that is the ability to do work, usually measured in joules. What other versions are you referring to by 'most'? Do you mean anything that falls under the umbrella of 'spiritual energy'?

I'll say 'spiritual energy,' and leave it at that, then, since you used the term. It's not like I haven't been clear what I'm talking about.

Originally Posted by 23_Tauri

Did you say earlier that you were a Reiki healer?

No. I've received training in it, both theory and practice, though, and thus both done it and experienced it in the course of learning more forms of massage therapy. After all that, as I said, I'm quite willing to concede that most or all of the effects of Reiki are attributable to other causes than the energy manipulation that is claimed. This doesn't mean that the energy doesn't exist or that manipulation isn't happening, but rather that I don't see good reason to claim that it does or is.

Quote:

Therefore, I assume this is your job (or at least one of them). Are you telling me that you hold a job manipulating something about which the existence of which you are undecided? Or do you do your Reiki healing on people knowing full well at the back of your mind that it could just all be placebo effect? If so, does that not bother you?

Or to give an analogy, would an agnostic preach to a church congregation about the existence of god?

Right. Lots of assumptions here that don't bear much resemblance with reality. Sadly, massage therapy in any form is not my job or one of them. Outside of the training, I haven't really had reason to practice Reiki, and I've never charged for Reiki, regardless.

As for your attempted analogy, I'd say that it simply fails, and that it sounds like your emotion and incorrect preconceptions are clouding your judgement, given what it's a continuation of.

pakeha · 5th November 2012, 09:26 AM

Anyway, how about returning to the OP and lady on the pier?

From her website, which doesn't ment mention reiki

Quote:

You, too, can easily start living intuitively by trusting the guidance of your Higher Self, your soul. You were born with this divine and powerful gift of intuition. It is a muscle that needs strengthening like all other parts of your being. You can use it or let it atrophy. If you choose to live intuitively, it will assist you in understanding situations, people, and sometimes even animals. It will guide and protect you. Intuitive arts facilitate your living in a multidimensional reality. If you have the desire to tap into that mystical part of your being, and want guidance, contact me for us to work together. Through a consultation with Spirit Energy Guidance and Tarot card reading we can touch and unblock any unresolved issues, thus permitting you to receive your guidance clearly. Intuitive consultations work great over the phone for Spirit has no form.

Tarot, palm reading and spirit guidance- a heady mixture!

23_Tauri · 5th November 2012, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

I'll say 'spiritual energy,' and leave it at that, then, since you used the term. It's not like I haven't been clear what I'm talking about.

As clear as it's possible to be about something for which there is no evidence of it existing.

Originally Posted by Aridas

No. I've received training in it, both theory and practice, though, and thus both done it and experienced it in the course of learning more forms of massage therapy.

Ok, that's clear; I was only seeking clarification. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Aridas

After all that, as I said, I'm quite willing to concede that most or all of the effects of Reiki are attributable to other causes than the energy manipulation that is claimed. This doesn't mean that the energy doesn't exist or that manipulation isn't happening, but rather that I don't see good reason to claim that it does or is.

So you'd say Reiki is most likely placebo, is that what you're saying? Or are you saying that "most or all of the effects of Reiki" are attributable to some other, unknown, unmeasurable and invisible force that isn't 'energy' (in the chi/prana/qi/New Age use of the word) and isn't placebo?

Originally Posted by Aridas

Right. Lots of assumptions here that don't bear much resemblance with reality. Sadly, massage therapy in any form is not my job or one of them. Outside of the training, I haven't really had reason to practice Reiki, and I've never charged for Reiki, regardless.

I did say that it was an assumption. I apologise. From the way you were talking about Reiki in your posts #59 and #72 it sounded to me like it was what you did (paid or unpaid).

Originally Posted by Aridas

As for your attempted analogy, I'd say that it simply fails, and that it sounds like your emotion and incorrect preconceptions are clouding your judgement, given what it's a continuation of.

What is what a continuation of?

Stray Cat · 5th November 2012, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

Heh. I'm merely using common usage. A form of common usage that I already provided a link describing. Don't like it? I'd suggest taking it up with a much different audience.

Well actually I think you'll find that if you want to push BS esoteric nonsense it''ll be you that needs to do that with a different audience.

Notice that this is a sceptic forum where objective and scientific evidence is king, not wishy washy misuse of language by woo peddling hippies.

As for it being "common usage"... Sorry, but it simply isn't (except for it's use by those who commonly misuse the term).

StankApe · 5th November 2012, 04:23 PM

The link provided to describe esoteric energy appears to be a flashing neon sign that says "read me, I'm nonsense!"

Stray Cat · 5th November 2012, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by StankApe

The link provided to describe esoteric energy appears to be a flashing neon sign that says "read me, I'm nonsense!"

I have to admit I didn't read it all... I just didn't have enough energy to spare on such twaddle*.

* I obviously need my chakras dowsing and aligning to the local ley lines or something.

StankApe · 5th November 2012, 04:35 PM

I suspect it's karma from all those exploding kittens!

Aridas · 5th November 2012, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by 23_Tauri

So you'd say Reiki is most likely placebo, is that what you're saying? Or are you saying that "most or all of the effects of Reiki" are attributable to some other, unknown, unmeasurable and invisible force that isn't 'energy' (in the chi/prana/qi/New Age use of the word) and isn't placebo?

I'd say that the effects of Reiki are explainable without needing to resort to anything non-scientific or pseudo-scientific. I certainly know what I felt and experienced, for the record, but I don't have good reason to assume or conclude that the "energy" I felt was anything other than biological in origin. My personal biology, in particular.

Originally Posted by 23_Tauri

What is what a continuation of?

Well...

Quote:

Or to give an analogy, would an agnostic preach to a church congregation about the existence of god?

Was, by the way you stated it, an attempt to rephrase the overall point of your questioning in the previous paragraph. In other words, it was a continuation of the thought process there.

Aridas · 5th November 2012, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by Stray Cat

Well actually I think you'll find that if you want to push BS esoteric nonsense it''ll be you that needs to do that with a different audience.

I was pushing it? Seriously? I'm pretty sure that my intentions and actual posts were nothing of the sort. Being able to discuss something does not mean that one is pushing it.

Originally Posted by Stray Cat

As for it being "common usage"... Sorry, but it simply isn't (except for it's use by those who commonly misuse the term).

I've made known what usage is being used clearly and repeatedly. Even if it weren't in common usage which, sadly, it simply is, that would be enough to make this line of discussion somewhat pointless. At no point in this general discussion, for the record, have I claimed that I was using any other usage of the word.

23_Tauri · 5th November 2012, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

I'd say that the effects of Reiki are explainable without needing to resort to anything non-scientific or pseudo-scientific. I certainly know what I felt and experienced, for the record, but I don't have good reason to assume or conclude that the "energy" I felt was anything other than biological in origin. My personal biology, in particular.

Pray tell me more, I'm all ears and you've got my full attention. What was this "biological in origin" phenomenon and what were its effects?

Aridas · 5th November 2012, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by 23_Tauri

Pray tell me more, I'm all ears and you've got my full attention. What was this "biological in origin" phenomenon and what were its effects?

Since I'm growing tired of this discussion, in general, I'll sum it up the phenomenon in two words. A feeling. The definite effects? I felt something. Nothing verifiable other than that.

StankApe · 5th November 2012, 07:58 PM

so in other words you have no evidence beyond your anecdote

Aridas · 5th November 2012, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by StankApe

so in other words you have no evidence beyond your anecdote

Evidence for what? I didn't make a positive claim that would require evidence. Except that spiritual energy, the supernatural, and other non-scientific explanations were not required. Given that what I said wouldn't even count as anecdotal evidence for that, I'm going to have to say that it's annoying to have positions and statements that I don't hold and didn't make projected onto me. Especially after I've gone out of my way to make it clear that they're not warranted. Repeatedly.

StankApe · 5th November 2012, 08:41 PM

ahem... I believe above you will find you made claims of experiencing "spiritual energy"

I would link all of this stuff, but frankly I don't feel like doing your work for you.

Aridas · 5th November 2012, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by StankApe

ahem... I believe above you will find you made claims of experiencing "spiritual energy"

I would link all of this stuff, but frankly I don't feel like doing your work for you.

No. I didn't make the claim that I experienced spiritual energy. I made the claim that I experienced something that is likely being interpreted as spiritual energy, but that it can be reasonably explained without needing to resort to nonscientific explanations.

StankApe · 5th November 2012, 09:04 PM

no, you said "spiritual energy" then claimed to have received training and then danced around giving a firm answer on whether or not you thought it was just a placebo, real, or a load of malarky.

it's one of those 3 things you see, there's no such thing as all of these and nothing.

care to give us a solid response ?

Aridas · 5th November 2012, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by StankApe

no, you said "spiritual energy"

And?

Originally Posted by StankApe

then claimed to have received training

And I have.

Originally Posted by StankApe

and then danced around giving a firm answer on whether or not you thought it was just a placebo, real, or a load of malarky.

I simply answered as honestly as logically possible. Reiki's effects are similar enough to a placebo's to make that the most logical explanation. That does not mean that the spiritual energy's not real, but it does mean that there's not good reason to claim that spiritual energy is real, based on that evidence. As for whether something's a load of malarky or not, if something's unfalsifiable, I generally don't even consider it worth a label like that. Hence why I pointed out that my position is, basically, ignosticism, previously.

Originally Posted by StankApe

care to give us a solid response ?

Seriously, are you done with questions that could have been answered just fine with my previous posts?

Pixel42 · 5th November 2012, 11:34 PM

FWIW Aridas, your position has always been clear to me. It's just that long time posters are used to the woos who come here misusing the language and dancing around the concept of evidence, and I can understand why some thought that's what you were trying to do.

tsig · 5th November 2012, 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

And?

And I have.

I simply answered as honestly as logically possible. Reiki's effects are similar enough to a placebo's to make that the most logical explanation. That does not mean that the spiritual energy's not real, but it does mean that there's not good reason to claim that spiritual energy is real, based on that evidence. As for whether something's a load of malarky or not, if something's unfalsifiable, I generally don't even consider it worth a label like that. Hence why I pointed out that my position is, basically, ignosticism, previously.

Seriously, are you done with questions that could have been answered just fine with my previous posts?

Seems like you desperately want to believe in spiritual energy.

Aridas · 6th November 2012, 12:31 AM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

FWIW Aridas, your position has always been clear to me. It's just that long time posters are used to the woos who come here misusing the language and dancing around the concept of evidence, and I can understand why some thought that's what you were trying to do.

Thank you. I'm used to it, too, for the record, which is why I've made the extra effort to keep things as clear as possible.

Originally Posted by tsig

Seems like you desperately want to believe in spiritual energy.

Seems like I desperately seek to adhere to logic and reason, rather than making unsupported claims and adding unnecessarily to the assumptions I make.

Stray Cat · 6th November 2012, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by Aridas

I was pushing it? Seriously? I'm pretty sure that my intentions and actual posts were nothing of the sort. Being able to discuss something does not mean that one is pushing it.

Linking to a page full of nonsense in order to justify misusing a word would be "pushing it", yes.

Originally Posted by Aridas

I've made known what usage is being used clearly and repeatedly.

Well no you haven't actually. I still haven't read a coherent response to the question Squeegee Beckenhiem asked you that originally lead to this exchange. In fact I'd go so far as to say that you've gone out of your way to not answer the question.

Originally Posted by Aridas

Even if it weren't in common usage which, sadly, it simply is, that would be enough to make this line of discussion somewhat pointless. At no point in this general discussion, for the record, have I claimed that I was using any other usage of the word.

Every one of your responses so far has been very 'round the houses' and it seems to me that you deliberately want to keep gaps for people to put gods into.

Explorer · 6th November 2012, 12:46 AM

This seems to be overly complicated.

The OP only makes one simple claim:

"I felt static electricity flowing from her hands to mine"

Firstly and importantly, "static electricity" does not flow, so the use of term is inappropriate.

That only leaves some kind of placebo effect, expected or otherwise, as a scientific explanation. Any other explanation has to be on the level of the supernatural, which is also inappropriate, at least on a skeptic's website.

So I simply ask, what does the OP expect to gain by posting such a vague, nebulous and frankly, quite unimpressive claim?

3rd November 2012, 07:23 AM	#121
joesixpack Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Edge of the continent, Pacific county, WA Posts: 3,489	Originally Posted by Duffy Moon I did wonder though - how many people go for a first-time Reiki sesh and are told "Your chakras are in tip-top condition, no need for a follow-up treatment"? Sorry for the slight derail. Of course this never happens. The world is so polluted and full of "toxins" that everyone's chakras are blocked. It's amazing that we've been able to double our life expectancies over the last couple of centuries without unblocking our chakras.
	__________________ I never got in trouble by bein' ignorant, I always got in trouble 'cause I thought I wasn't.

3rd November 2012, 08:21 AM	#122
Deranged Thinker Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 219	Originally Posted by joesixpack Of course this never happens. The world is so polluted and full of "toxins" that everyone's chakras are blocked. It's amazing that we've been able to double our life expectancies over the last couple of centuries without unblocking our chakras. I have no idea if this is legit but last week I took an online Chakra "test" by answering a bunch of questions. Every single Chakra was in perfect condition. And her "job" is to improve Chakras. I have no idea what this is all about but I got an A+. LOL!!!
	__________________ If you're so all-knowing, where is the end of the universe? I'm waiting.

3rd November 2012, 08:26 AM	#123
Deranged Thinker Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 219	Originally Posted by carlitos When you have a charge of static electricity from walking with your feet on carpeting, then touch something or someone with your finger, what happens? Does that sound stupid too? That hurts !!! I get that in the grocery store and I hate it!!
	__________________ If you're so all-knowing, where is the end of the universe? I'm waiting.

3rd November 2012, 08:27 AM	#124
Deranged Thinker Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 219	Originally Posted by Resume Aha, so you were playing the congas. My hands feel all sort of tingly after a bit of playing, so I see what you may have been experiencing. What is a conga? Drums of some sort?
	__________________ If you're so all-knowing, where is the end of the universe? I'm waiting.

3rd November 2012, 08:29 AM	#125
Deranged Thinker Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 219	Originally Posted by resume wasn't this person, was it? http://www.solaya.net/index.html yes. That is absolutely the woman i met. Wooooow.
	__________________ If you're so all-knowing, where is the end of the universe? I'm waiting.

3rd November 2012, 09:40 AM	#126
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,137	Originally Posted by Deranged What is a conga? Drums of some sort? Yes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conga They're played on the pier and in the square, or used to be.
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,137

3rd November 2012, 12:15 PM	#127
Sledge Grammaton Cleric Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Swingin' on a star Posts: 7,123	Originally Posted by Deranged o m g Resume . YES, THAT IS HER !! I'M SHOCKED RIGHT NOW!! Pardon the pun. Great work. I am really excited. At first I thought, that looks like her except she's a blonde. But when I saw MALLORY SQUARE I knew it. Wow!!! Originally Posted by Deranged yes. That is absolutely the woman i met. Wooooow. Why have you responded to the same post twice? You've done it a few times now.
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain. Last edited by Sledge; 3rd November 2012 at 12:17 PM.

3rd November 2012, 02:20 PM	#128
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,137	Originally Posted by Deranged o m g Resume . YES, THAT IS HER !! I'M SHOCKED RIGHT NOW!! Pardon the pun. Great work. I am really excited. At first I thought, that looks like her except she's a blonde. But when I saw MALLORY SQUARE I knew it. Wow!!! Take a close read of the website then tell me if you're buying anything that person is selling.
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,137

4th November 2012, 01:49 AM	#129
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,110	Originally Posted by Deranged What is a conga? Drums of some sort? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conga_line ETA: Looks like I was beaten to the punch. Conga lines are more fun for a lot of people, though.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon. Last edited by Aridas; 4th November 2012 at 01:50 AM.

4th November 2012, 03:15 AM	#130
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,246	Originally Posted by Resume Wasn't this person, was it? http://www.solaya.net/index.html Oh, well done, indeed.
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,246

5th November 2012, 12:49 AM	#131
Stray Cat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: The Land That Time Forgot Posts: 6,666	Originally Posted by Aridas That said, I would still suggest that the problem you're speaking of rests soundly with the assumptions that the systems in questions are based upon rather with either an issue with the understandability of the definition or its internal coherence. And I would suggest that the problem is that you misuse the word "energy" in the same way as these other "systems". Energy can be objectively measured, if it can't be objectively measured, it aint energy so stop calling it that.
	__________________ It's only my madness that stops me from going insane!

5th November 2012, 01:51 AM	#132
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,110	Originally Posted by Stray Cat And I would suggest that the problem is that you misuse the word "energy" in the same way as these other "systems". Energy can be objectively measured, if it can't be objectively measured, it aint energy so stop calling it that. Heh. I'm merely using common usage. A form of common usage that I already provided a link describing. Don't like it? I'd suggest taking it up with a much different audience.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

5th November 2012, 03:03 AM	#133
23_Tauri Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: UK Posts: 4,947	Originally Posted by Aridas Heh. I'm merely using common usage. A form of common usage that I already provided a link describing. Don't like it? I'd suggest taking it up with a much different audience. Aridas, do you believe that this 'subtle energy' (aka chi, prana, life force etc) that cannot be detected or measured exists? If so, why do you believe that it exists?
	__________________ Little Miss Witchcraft, she's not made of straw.

5th November 2012, 03:21 AM	#134
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,110	Originally Posted by 23_Tauri Aridas, do you believe that this 'subtle energy' (aka chi, prana, life force etc) that cannot be detected or measured exists? If so, why do you believe that it exists? At what point did I say either that it exists or that I believe that it exists? Unless you're arguing that one has to believe in something to be able to understand the concepts involved and/or discuss it? A bit more directly... my position is, technically, neither. If something is unfalsifiable, like most of the versions, I tend to allow it as a possibility, but consider it to be meaningless. It's basically an extension of ignosticism to other, similar concepts.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon. Last edited by Aridas; 5th November 2012 at 03:26 AM.

5th November 2012, 03:22 AM	#135
23_Tauri Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: UK Posts: 4,947	Originally Posted by Aridas At what point did I say either that it exists or that I believe that it exists? You didn't, that's why I asked you the question. Would you like to answer it please? A yes or a no will do fine. Thanks!
	__________________ Little Miss Witchcraft, she's not made of straw.

5th November 2012, 03:24 AM	#136
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,246	Originally Posted by Deranged I have no idea if this is legit but last week I took an online Chakra "test" by answering a bunch of questions. Every single Chakra was in perfect condition. And her "job" is to improve Chakras. I have no idea what this is all about but I got an A+. LOL!!! Which chakra system did you use?
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,246

5th November 2012, 03:34 AM	#137
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,110	Originally Posted by 23_Tauri You didn't, that's why I asked you the question. Would you like to answer it please? A yes or a no will do fine. Thanks! I did, in an edit to add more, given that no one else had posted when I started the edit and it was a fairly quick one. My apologies, I had initially misunderstood what you said, hence the answer that wasn't direct. On rereading, I saw my error and attempted to correct it quickly. Still, to repeat the most relevant part... A bit more directly... my position is, technically, neither. If something is unfalsifiable, like most of the versions, I tend to allow it as a possibility, but consider it to be meaningless. It's basically an extension of ignosticism to other, similar concepts. To add to that, slightly, then, so I'm not just repeating myself, I allow the possibility of one or more being the case, if they're possible in the first place, but don't see good reason to assume or conclude that any of them actually are the case.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon. Last edited by Aridas; 5th November 2012 at 03:35 AM.

5th November 2012, 04:56 AM	#138
23_Tauri Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: UK Posts: 4,947	Originally Posted by Aridas A bit more directly... my position is, technically, neither. Technically? Originally Posted by Aridas If something is unfalsifiable, like most of the versions, Most versions? Most versions of what? Energy? There's only one scientifically accepted 'version' of energy, and that is the ability to do work, usually measured in joules. What other versions are you referring to by 'most'? Do you mean anything that falls under the umbrella of 'spiritual energy'? Originally Posted by Aridas I tend to allow it as a possibility, but consider it to be meaningless. It's basically an extension of ignosticism to other, similar concepts. To add to that, slightly, then, so I'm not just repeating myself, I allow the possibility of one or more being the case, if they're possible in the first place, but don't see good reason to assume or conclude that any of them actually are the case. Did you say earlier that you were a Reiki healer? Therefore, I assume this is your job (or at least one of them). Are you telling me that you hold a job manipulating something about which the existence of which you are undecided? Or do you do your Reiki healing on people knowing full well at the back of your mind that it could just all be placebo effect? If so, does that not bother you? Or to give an analogy, would an agnostic preach to a church congregation about the existence of god?
	__________________ Little Miss Witchcraft, she's not made of straw. Last edited by 23_Tauri; 5th November 2012 at 04:58 AM.

5th November 2012, 07:56 AM	#139
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,110	Originally Posted by 23_Tauri Most versions? Most versions of what? Energy? There's only one scientifically accepted 'version' of energy, and that is the ability to do work, usually measured in joules. What other versions are you referring to by 'most'? Do you mean anything that falls under the umbrella of 'spiritual energy'? I'll say 'spiritual energy,' and leave it at that, then, since you used the term. It's not like I haven't been clear what I'm talking about. Originally Posted by 23_Tauri Did you say earlier that you were a Reiki healer? No. I've received training in it, both theory and practice, though, and thus both done it and experienced it in the course of learning more forms of massage therapy. After all that, as I said, I'm quite willing to concede that most or all of the effects of Reiki are attributable to other causes than the energy manipulation that is claimed. This doesn't mean that the energy doesn't exist or that manipulation isn't happening, but rather that I don't see good reason to claim that it does or is. Quote: Therefore, I assume this is your job (or at least one of them). Are you telling me that you hold a job manipulating something about which the existence of which you are undecided? Or do you do your Reiki healing on people knowing full well at the back of your mind that it could just all be placebo effect? If so, does that not bother you? Or to give an analogy, would an agnostic preach to a church congregation about the existence of god? Right. Lots of assumptions here that don't bear much resemblance with reality. Sadly, massage therapy in any form is not my job or one of them. Outside of the training, I haven't really had reason to practice Reiki, and I've never charged for Reiki, regardless. As for your attempted analogy, I'd say that it simply fails, and that it sounds like your emotion and incorrect preconceptions are clouding your judgement, given what it's a continuation of.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon. Last edited by Aridas; 5th November 2012 at 07:59 AM.

5th November 2012, 09:26 AM	#140
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,246	Anyway, how about returning to the OP and lady on the pier? From her website, which doesn't ment mention reiki Quote: You, too, can easily start living intuitively by trusting the guidance of your Higher Self, your soul. You were born with this divine and powerful gift of intuition. It is a muscle that needs strengthening like all other parts of your being. You can use it or let it atrophy. If you choose to live intuitively, it will assist you in understanding situations, people, and sometimes even animals. It will guide and protect you. Intuitive arts facilitate your living in a multidimensional reality. If you have the desire to tap into that mystical part of your being, and want guidance, contact me for us to work together. Through a consultation with Spirit Energy Guidance and Tarot card reading we can touch and unblock any unresolved issues, thus permitting you to receive your guidance clearly. Intuitive consultations work great over the phone for Spirit has no form. Tarot, palm reading and spirit guidance- a heady mixture!
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,246

5th November 2012, 12:19 PM	#141
23_Tauri Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: UK Posts: 4,947	Originally Posted by Aridas I'll say 'spiritual energy,' and leave it at that, then, since you used the term. It's not like I haven't been clear what I'm talking about. As clear as it's possible to be about something for which there is no evidence of it existing. Originally Posted by Aridas No. I've received training in it, both theory and practice, though, and thus both done it and experienced it in the course of learning more forms of massage therapy. Ok, that's clear; I was only seeking clarification. Thank you. Originally Posted by Aridas After all that, as I said, I'm quite willing to concede that most or all of the effects of Reiki are attributable to other causes than the energy manipulation that is claimed. This doesn't mean that the energy doesn't exist or that manipulation isn't happening, but rather that I don't see good reason to claim that it does or is. So you'd say Reiki is most likely placebo, is that what you're saying? Or are you saying that "most or all of the effects of Reiki" are attributable to some other, unknown, unmeasurable and invisible force that isn't 'energy' (in the chi/prana/qi/New Age use of the word) and isn't placebo? Originally Posted by Aridas Right. Lots of assumptions here that don't bear much resemblance with reality. Sadly, massage therapy in any form is not my job or one of them. Outside of the training, I haven't really had reason to practice Reiki, and I've never charged for Reiki, regardless. I did say that it was an assumption. I apologise. From the way you were talking about Reiki in your posts #59 and #72 it sounded to me like it was what you did (paid or unpaid). Originally Posted by Aridas As for your attempted analogy, I'd say that it simply fails, and that it sounds like your emotion and incorrect preconceptions are clouding your judgement, given what it's a continuation of. What is what a continuation of?
	__________________ Little Miss Witchcraft, she's not made of straw.

5th November 2012, 04:17 PM	#142
Stray Cat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: The Land That Time Forgot Posts: 6,666	Originally Posted by Aridas Heh. I'm merely using common usage. A form of common usage that I already provided a link describing. Don't like it? I'd suggest taking it up with a much different audience. Well actually I think you'll find that if you want to push BS esoteric nonsense it''ll be you that needs to do that with a different audience. Notice that this is a sceptic forum where objective and scientific evidence is king, not wishy washy misuse of language by woo peddling hippies. As for it being "common usage"... Sorry, but it simply isn't (except for it's use by those who commonly misuse the term).
	__________________ It's only my madness that stops me from going insane!

5th November 2012, 04:23 PM	#143
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,643	The link provided to describe esoteric energy appears to be a flashing neon sign that says "read me, I'm nonsense!"
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,643

5th November 2012, 04:32 PM	#144
Stray Cat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: The Land That Time Forgot Posts: 6,666	Originally Posted by StankApe The link provided to describe esoteric energy appears to be a flashing neon sign that says "read me, I'm nonsense!" I have to admit I didn't read it all... I just didn't have enough energy to spare on such twaddle. I obviously need my chakras dowsing and aligning to the local ley lines or something.
	__________________ It's only my madness that stops me from going insane! Last edited by Stray Cat; 5th November 2012 at 04:34 PM.

5th November 2012, 04:35 PM	#145
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,643	I suspect it's karma from all those exploding kittens!
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,643

5th November 2012, 04:41 PM	#146
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,110	Originally Posted by 23_Tauri So you'd say Reiki is most likely placebo, is that what you're saying? Or are you saying that "most or all of the effects of Reiki" are attributable to some other, unknown, unmeasurable and invisible force that isn't 'energy' (in the chi/prana/qi/New Age use of the word) and isn't placebo? I'd say that the effects of Reiki are explainable without needing to resort to anything non-scientific or pseudo-scientific. I certainly know what I felt and experienced, for the record, but I don't have good reason to assume or conclude that the "energy" I felt was anything other than biological in origin. My personal biology, in particular. Originally Posted by 23_Tauri What is what a continuation of? Well... Quote: Or to give an analogy, would an agnostic preach to a church congregation about the existence of god? Was, by the way you stated it, an attempt to rephrase the overall point of your questioning in the previous paragraph. In other words, it was a continuation of the thought process there.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

5th November 2012, 04:55 PM	#147
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,110	Originally Posted by Stray Cat Well actually I think you'll find that if you want to push BS esoteric nonsense it''ll be you that needs to do that with a different audience. I was pushing it? Seriously? I'm pretty sure that my intentions and actual posts were nothing of the sort. Being able to discuss something does not mean that one is pushing it. Originally Posted by Stray Cat As for it being "common usage"... Sorry, but it simply isn't (except for it's use by those who commonly misuse the term). I've made known what usage is being used clearly and repeatedly. Even if it weren't in common usage which, sadly, it simply is, that would be enough to make this line of discussion somewhat pointless. At no point in this general discussion, for the record, have I claimed that I was using any other usage of the word.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

5th November 2012, 05:22 PM	#148
23_Tauri Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: UK Posts: 4,947	Originally Posted by Aridas I'd say that the effects of Reiki are explainable without needing to resort to anything non-scientific or pseudo-scientific. I certainly know what I felt and experienced, for the record, but I don't have good reason to assume or conclude that the "energy" I felt was anything other than biological in origin. My personal biology, in particular. Pray tell me more, I'm all ears and you've got my full attention. What was this "biological in origin" phenomenon and what were its effects?
	__________________ Little Miss Witchcraft, she's not made of straw.

5th November 2012, 05:53 PM	#149
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,110	Originally Posted by 23_Tauri Pray tell me more, I'm all ears and you've got my full attention. What was this "biological in origin" phenomenon and what were its effects? Since I'm growing tired of this discussion, in general, I'll sum it up the phenomenon in two words. A feeling. The definite effects? I felt something. Nothing verifiable other than that.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

5th November 2012, 07:58 PM	#150
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,643	so in other words you have no evidence beyond your anecdote
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,643

5th November 2012, 08:30 PM	#151
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,110	Originally Posted by StankApe so in other words you have no evidence beyond your anecdote Evidence for what? I didn't make a positive claim that would require evidence. Except that spiritual energy, the supernatural, and other non-scientific explanations were not required. Given that what I said wouldn't even count as anecdotal evidence for that, I'm going to have to say that it's annoying to have positions and statements that I don't hold and didn't make projected onto me. Especially after I've gone out of my way to make it clear that they're not warranted. Repeatedly.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon. Last edited by Aridas; 5th November 2012 at 08:41 PM. Reason: Minor alteration to the start of my response and some to the middle

5th November 2012, 08:41 PM	#152
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,643	ahem... I believe above you will find you made claims of experiencing "spiritual energy" I would link all of this stuff, but frankly I don't feel like doing your work for you.
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,643

5th November 2012, 08:57 PM	#153
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,110	Originally Posted by StankApe ahem... I believe above you will find you made claims of experiencing "spiritual energy" I would link all of this stuff, but frankly I don't feel like doing your work for you. No. I didn't make the claim that I experienced spiritual energy. I made the claim that I experienced something that is likely being interpreted as spiritual energy, but that it can be reasonably explained without needing to resort to nonscientific explanations.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

5th November 2012, 09:04 PM	#154
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,643	no, you said "spiritual energy" then claimed to have received training and then danced around giving a firm answer on whether or not you thought it was just a placebo, real, or a load of malarky. it's one of those 3 things you see, there's no such thing as all of these and nothing. care to give us a solid response ?
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,643

5th November 2012, 09:18 PM	#155
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,110	Originally Posted by StankApe no, you said "spiritual energy" And? Originally Posted by StankApe then claimed to have received training And I have. Originally Posted by StankApe and then danced around giving a firm answer on whether or not you thought it was just a placebo, real, or a load of malarky. I simply answered as honestly as logically possible. Reiki's effects are similar enough to a placebo's to make that the most logical explanation. That does not mean that the spiritual energy's not real, but it does mean that there's not good reason to claim that spiritual energy is real, based on that evidence. As for whether something's a load of malarky or not, if something's unfalsifiable, I generally don't even consider it worth a label like that. Hence why I pointed out that my position is, basically, ignosticism, previously. Originally Posted by StankApe care to give us a solid response ? Seriously, are you done with questions that could have been answered just fine with my previous posts?
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon. Last edited by Aridas; 5th November 2012 at 09:30 PM.