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Tags honor killing , islam , pakistan , traditional societies

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Old 8th November 2012, 05:35 AM   #81
SatansMaleVoiceChoir
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I have shown you one way by supporting local campaigns to stop it.
yes, but HOW do they propose to stop it?

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Honour killings and suppression of women is way worse than anything we get up to in our Western Culture that Muslims may not like.
Yes - by western standards. Many Muslims see what we do as much worse. Go figure.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
They get upset about pineapples being labeled Mohammad.
I'm vaguely aware of that...

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
That is clearly different form pouring acid over and killing a daughter who brings supposed shame when she was raped by a male relative.
Yes, it is very clearly different to us. To many of them both an alleged insult to their Prophet and a daughter bringing shame upon their family are worth taking a life over. Go figure.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
People in our own Western Culture thankfully stepped in and campaigned against something wholesomely evil that our culture was doing and stopped it. Slavery.
OK... so why don't we leave the Middle Eastern cultures alone and let THEM sort their own internal cultural problems out? Obviously you'd prefer they sorted out the ones that you don't like first, not the ones that they themselves consider a problem?
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Old 8th November 2012, 05:40 AM   #82
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Read up on their campaigns, starting with the links I provided.

What ever faults we have in our culture, many of which they happily protest and riot about, they are nothing compared to honour killings, no matter what spin you try and put on it.
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Old 8th November 2012, 05:59 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Read up on their campaigns, starting with the links I provided.

What ever faults we have in our culture, many of which they happily protest and riot about, they are nothing compared to honour killings, no matter what spin you try and put on it.
Oh FSM, you really don't get this do you? I'm not trying to put a spin on anything - I'm stating a FACT.

You are looking at this with Western values - of course it is abhorrent to us - however to some of the Islamic faith in the Middle East, our way of life is totally repulsive to them, and killing one of their own children to satisfy honour is absolutely the right thing for them to do. You've already given examples yourself which support Honour Killings being a cultural norm.

If it were the other way around, you'd probably be saying "It doesn't matter what spin you try and put on it - a woman out in public drinking alcohol and wearing a bikini around men is ABSOLUTELY worse than killing for the sake of family honour!"

What part of this don't you understand?
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Old 8th November 2012, 06:11 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
If it were the other way around, you'd probably be saying "It doesn't matter what spin you try and put on it - a woman out in public drinking alcohol and wearing a bikini around men is ABSOLUTELY worse than killing for the sake of family honour!"
And that would be wrong of course. By the factor of a number of centuries.

Nothing wrong with dragging people a few centuries forward; if American Evangelicals can be excoriated for their retrograde behavior, so can honor killers, and battery acid splashers.
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Old 8th November 2012, 06:18 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
And that would be wrong of course. By the factor of a number of centuries.
Wrong by whose standards?

Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Nothing wrong with dragging people a few centuries forward; if American Evangelicals can be excoriated for their retrograde behavior, so can honor killers, and battery acid splashers.
So whose standards are you using to judge if someone's culture is modern enough?
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Old 8th November 2012, 06:36 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Wrong by whose standards?


So whose standards are you using to judge if someone's culture is modern enough?
The human empathy of my experience.

Honor killing bad.

Don't care if some find that offensive.
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Old 8th November 2012, 06:39 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
The human empathy of my experience.
And in what culture was this experience gained and/or passed on to you?

Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Honor killing bad.

Don't care if some find that offensive.
Honour killing certainly IS bad by our standards. I don't care if some find that offensive either.
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Old 8th November 2012, 07:15 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
And in what culture was this experience gained and/or passed on to you?
Human empathy. Over thousands of years of social interaction. Now manifested in a culture that is actively attempting to limit human suffering, needless pain, and pointless murder. And sometimes pointing out why such things are bad.

I don't know what sort of gotcha moment you're looking for in this thread, but if you're hoping to find some sort of contradiction, well, that's the human condition.

Ask Whitman.
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Old 8th November 2012, 07:20 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Human empathy. Over thousands of years of social interaction. Now manifested in a culture that is actively attempting to limit human suffering, needless pain, and pointless murder. And sometimes pointing out why such things are bad.

I don't know what sort of gotcha moment you're looking for in this thread, but if you're hoping to find some sort of contradiction, well, that's the human condition.

Ask Whitman.
I'm not looking for a 'Gotchya' moment; I'm simply asking you what culture you were brought up in and where you inherited your values from.

Obviously your refusal to give a straight answer indicates you know exactly what I'm getting at.
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Old 8th November 2012, 07:26 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Obviously your refusal to give a straight answer indicates you know exactly what I'm getting at.
I'm giving you a straight answer; you apparently don't know what I'm getting at.
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Old 8th November 2012, 07:29 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
I'm giving you a straight answer; you apparently don't know what I'm getting at.
No you haven't.

I was raised in a Western culture, and all my values and standards reflect this. This is the reason why I find Honour Killings to be barbaric and wrong.

How about you, or are you going to continue with the evasion tactics?
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Old 8th November 2012, 07:45 AM   #92
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Look, just assume he's speaking from a generic Western viewpoint and get on with it already.
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Old 8th November 2012, 07:49 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
No you haven't.

I was raised in a Western culture, and all my values and standards reflect this. This is the reason why I find Honour Killings to be barbaric and wrong.

How about you, or are you going to continue with the evasion tactics?
Sure, I was raised in the West.

Now what?
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Old 8th November 2012, 07:58 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Look, just assume he's speaking from a generic Western viewpoint and get on with it already.
Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Sure, I was raised in the West.

Now what?
So you're having trouble understanding that someone raised in a totally different culture to yours, with completely different values and standards handed down through generations might not see anything wrong with Honour Killing? That just because YOU think it's a bad thing, they should as well?

One man's meat is another man's poison, and all that...
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Old 8th November 2012, 08:04 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
So you're having trouble understanding that someone raised in a totally different culture to yours, with completely different values and standards handed down through generations might not see anything wrong with Honour Killing? That just because YOU think it's a bad thing, they should as well?

One man's meat is another man's poison, and all that...
Honor murders are murders. As the Klan (and others) lynching blacks is murder. As is witch burning today in Africa.

Different cultures with different standards all committing murder.

Sorry if these backwards cultures are dragged into modernity. I feel all insenstive and ****.
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Old 8th November 2012, 08:09 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Oh FSM, you really don't get this do you? I'm not trying to put a spin on anything - I'm stating a FACT.

You are looking at this with Western values - of course it is abhorrent to us - however to some of the Islamic faith in the Middle East, our way of life is totally repulsive to them, and killing one of their own children to satisfy honour is absolutely the right thing for them to do. You've already given examples yourself which support Honour Killings being a cultural norm.

If it were the other way around, you'd probably be saying "It doesn't matter what spin you try and put on it - a woman out in public drinking alcohol and wearing a bikini around men is ABSOLUTELY worse than killing for the sake of family honour!"

What part of this don't you understand?
I understand all of it. I am saying it is wrong and we are right to support those people in their culture who are campaigning against honour killing.

Have you noticed that there are women in those cultures who think honour killing is wrong and are trying to stop it?

Have you noticed those who do honour kill do get punished and sent to prison at least in some cases?

It is not as if those cultures are universally for honour killing.
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Old 8th November 2012, 08:16 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Honor murders are murders. As the Klan (and others) lynching blacks is murder. As is witch burning today in Africa.

Different cultures with different standards all committing murder.
Of course it's murder, by western standards. It may even be murder by certain Middle East standards, but they may be a bit more 'understanding' about the circumstances.

Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Sorry if these backwards cultures are dragged into modernity. I feel all insenstive and ****.
Brilliant. And people are shocked that so many Middle Eastern cultures are extremely happy to see westerners killed by hijacked planes, suicide bombs or just plain old beheadings.

"Let's just dive in and drag the fuzzy-wuzzies screaming and kicking into the light of the modern age, because they're not living how we think they should!"

I'm assuming you'd be quite understanding if groups of Middle East countries imposed oil sanctions on the West until we adopted Sharia Law, or Islamic values and standards? It would be in our best interests, surely?
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Old 8th November 2012, 08:20 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Brilliant.
Thank you. Back at you.
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Old 8th November 2012, 08:20 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I understand all of it. I am saying it is wrong and we are right to support those people in their culture who are campaigning against honour killing.
It is wrong by our standards, yes. Why do these people need our help campaigning?

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Have you noticed that there are women in those cultures who think honour killing is wrong and are trying to stop it?
I have and I wish them the best of luck.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Have you noticed those who do honour kill do get punished and sent to prison at least in some cases?

It is not as if those cultures are universally for honour killing.
I have noticed, yes; and I have also said that not all Middle Eastern cultures support Honour Killing.

What was your point?
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Old 8th November 2012, 08:22 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
"Let's just dive in and drag the fuzzy-wuzzies screaming and kicking into the light of the modern age, because they're not living how we think they should!"
And you're goddamned right. Dragging the Klan into the light of modernity was the correct thing to do; stopping the murder of "witches" in Africa is the correct thing to do; marginalizing honor murder is the correct thing to do.
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Old 8th November 2012, 08:25 AM   #101
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As far as I am concerned those who favour honour killings fail the primary test for all actions, the golden rule of how would like it if it was done to you?

I would have less of a problem if the honour killing was of the son who raped his sister, as at least then you are punishing the guilty party. But to punish the victim? That is so barbaric I have no problem justifying interfering in their culture to support campaigns to stop it. I also have no problem making those with that culture who move to Scotland understand that it will not be accepted under any circumstances.

I also say no matter what they claim about our culture, it is no where near as barbaric as theirs and it does not fail the golden rule.

I they imposed oil sanctions to get us to establish Sharia law I would impose sanctions back on them and not sell them any arms and seize all their bank accounts and assets in this country.
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Old 8th November 2012, 08:28 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
It is wrong by our standards, yes. Why do these people need our help campaigning?



I have and I wish them the best of luck.



I have noticed, yes; and I have also said that not all Middle Eastern cultures support Honour Killing.

What was your point?
That we are right to say honour killings are wrong and to campaign against them.

I don't think we are that far apart in our positions, it is just about the degree to which we interfere in another culture that we disagree over.
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Old 8th November 2012, 08:31 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
So you're having trouble understanding that someone raised in a totally different culture to yours, with completely different values and standards handed down through generations might not see anything wrong with Honour Killing? That just because YOU think it's a bad thing, they should as well?

One man's meat is another man's poison, and all that...
Oh, I understand it. I just don't particularly give a damn. Murder is murder.

There's a point at which cultural sensitivity becomes counterproductive, beyond which it's all honor killings and unnamed fruit.
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Old 8th November 2012, 08:31 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
And you're goddamned right. Dragging the Klan into the light of modernity was the correct thing to do;
You're goddamned right it was! It was an internal American problem which the Americans sorted out when it became culturally unacceptable to the vast majority of Americans.

Originally Posted by Resume View Post
stopping the murder of "witches" in Africa is the correct thing to do;
Yes it is the correct thing for the relevant African Government/Leaders to do when burning witches becomes culturally unacceptable.

Originally Posted by Resume View Post
marginalizing honor murder is the correct thing to do.
It certainly will be the correct thing for the relevant Pakistani/Middle Eastern Government to do.
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Old 8th November 2012, 08:37 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
As far as I am concerned those who favour honour killings fail the primary test for all actions, the golden rule of how would like it if it was done to you?
Correct. A very Christian ethos.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I would have less of a problem if the honour killing was of the son who raped his sister, as at least then you are punishing the guilty party. But to punish the victim? That is so barbaric I have no problem justifying interfering in their culture to support campaigns to stop it.
I agree with the first part. Once again though, you judge it to be barbaric by Western standards - and I agree - but clearly they DON'T.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I also have no problem making those with that culture who move to Scotland understand that it will not be accepted under any circumstances.
I agree - you move to Scotland and you obey the law of the land, or face the full consequences.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I also say no matter what they claim about our culture, it is no where near as barbaric as theirs and it does not fail the golden rule.
This is what you're not getting; this is YOUR point of view; one which they DO NOT share. To THEM, YOUR ways are barbaric.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I they imposed oil sanctions to get us to establish Sharia law I would impose sanctions back on them and not sell them any arms and seize all their bank accounts and assets in this country.
So you'd be unhappy if they tried to impose their values and standards on you. Got it.
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Old 8th November 2012, 08:40 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Oh, I understand it. I just don't particularly give a damn. Murder is murder.
I agree. Clearly some cultures don't. You can withold as man damns as you like; it won't change the fact that to them it is not murder, but a necessary cultural obligation.

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
There's a point at which cultural sensitivity becomes counterproductive, beyond which it's all honor killings and unnamed fruit.
Counterproductive to what?
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Old 8th November 2012, 08:41 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I don't think we are that far apart in our positions, it is just about the degree to which we interfere in another culture that we disagree over.
You are entirely correct.
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Old 8th November 2012, 08:47 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
I agree. Clearly some cultures don't. You can withold as man damns as you like; it won't change the fact that to them it is not murder, but a necessary cultural obligation.

Counterproductive to what?
Counterproductive to myself respecting their culture, of course. What did you expect, that I would launch a one-man invasion as some kind of Persian Batman, righting wrongs and talking in a hoarse voice?

[ETA] WHO WERE YOU LOOKING AT?!

On a less personal note, counterproductive to Pakistan's international dealings. They are part of the UN, which does have very firm views on these things, even if they only action it'll ever take is a sternly-worded reprimand.

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Old 8th November 2012, 08:52 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Counterproductive to myself respecting their culture, of course.
OK. I wouldn't expect you to respect a culture that condones - or treats lightly - such a thing, and neither do I.

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
What did you expect, that I would launch a one-man invasion as some kind of Persian Batman, righting wrongs and talking in a hoarse voice?
I wasn't expecting that at all, no - but now you mention it, I can't think of anything else! I would PAY to see that film.

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
On a less personal note, counterproductive to Pakistan's international dealings. They are part of the UN, which does have very firm views on these things, even if they only action it'll ever take is a sternly-worded reprimand.
Indeed. It is up to the Pakistani Government to drive change internally. Change generally has to come from within or it will be seriously resented otherwise.
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Old 8th November 2012, 08:58 AM   #110
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There are organisations in Pakistan (and other affected countries) fighting against "honour" killings, and these should be supported as much as possible.

http://www.af.org.pk/mainpage.htm

http://afpak.foreignpolicy.com/posts...fense_of_honor
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Old 8th November 2012, 09:03 AM   #111
SatansMaleVoiceChoir
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Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
There are organisations in Pakistan (and other affected countries) fighting against "honour" killings, and these should be supported as much as possible.

http://www.af.org.pk/mainpage.htm

http://afpak.foreignpolicy.com/posts...fense_of_honor
Definitely. Change has to come from within, and there's no reason why we shouldn't support that; as long as we don't drive it..
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Old 8th November 2012, 09:08 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Indeed. It is up to the Pakistani Government to drive change internally. Change generally has to come from within or it will be seriously resented otherwise.
I had a long-ass post the forum ate, and I ain't about to retype it, so let me summarize: I disagree. They resent Western influence now for good reason: any pretense we had to being the good guys was traded for realpolitik a long time ago. This can be changed, but it'll be an uphill battle of overthrowing one tyrant just to let the people elect another, until they realize that Western-looking governments are not necessarily corruption-riddled puppet states.
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Old 8th November 2012, 09:16 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
I had a long-ass post the forum ate, and I ain't about to retype it, so let me summarize: I disagree. They resent Western influence now for good reason: any pretense we had to being the good guys was traded for realpolitik a long time ago. This can be changed, but it'll be an uphill battle of overthrowing one tyrant just to let the people elect another, until they realize that Western-looking governments are not necessarily corruption-riddled puppet states.
I think any change brought on by the outside influence of a Western Government will be resented and rejected by those culturally 'hardcore' and backward enough to think 'Honour Killing' is a viable solution to anything. I'd be willing to bet that the same cultures that produce people willing to commit suicide for 'the cause' and receive a reward in heaven would think NOTHING of 20 years in jail in order to keep the honour of their family name.

We in the West greatly underestimate - or simply cannot comprehend - how fanatical these people can be about certain aspects of their culture, I think.
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Old 8th November 2012, 09:18 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
We in the West greatly underestimate - or simply cannot comprehend - how fanatical these people can be about certain aspects of their culture, I think.
They're as fanatical as they allow themselves to be.
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Old 8th November 2012, 09:22 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
They're as fanatical as they allow themselves to be.
Or as fanatical as their culture dictates they be.
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Old 8th November 2012, 09:24 AM   #116
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There is likely to be an increase in the number of honor killings in the short term as Middle Eastern countries shift into western economic systems. As objective conditions change, familial and community structures change. Those in formerly privileged positions will become less powerful and less important. There will be reactionary responses to those changes.

Someone here suggested that dragging the Klan into the 20th century was the proper response. And while that is true, it wasn't the Chinese or the Italians who came from overseas to do it, it was done by Americans, and many of them southerners. The same is true of the Mid East. They will be dragged into the new cultural norm by themselves. Efforts to impose your values on me will generally result in my further entrenchment of my values. The Crusades didn't actually work. Sending in the Marines to "liberate" the women of the Mid East is likely to have about the same level of success.
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Old 8th November 2012, 09:31 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
There is likely to be an increase in the number of honor killings in the short term as Middle Eastern countries shift into western economic systems. As objective conditions change, familial and community structures change. Those in formerly privileged positions will become less powerful and less important. There will be reactionary responses to those changes.

Someone here suggested that dragging the Klan into the 20th century was the proper response. And while that is true, it wasn't the Chinese or the Italians who came from overseas to do it, it was done by Americans, and many of them southerners. The same is true of the Mid East. They will be dragged into the new cultural norm by themselves. Efforts to impose your values on me will generally result in my further entrenchment of my values. The Crusades didn't actually work. Sending in the Marines to "liberate" the women of the Mid East is likely to have about the same level of success.
Yup - agreed. Pretty much what I'm saying.
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Old 8th November 2012, 09:39 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Oh FSM, you really don't get this do you?
We get it, you just don't like our response.


Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
You are looking at this with Western values - of course it is abhorrent to us - however to some of the Islamic faith in the Middle East, our way of life is totally repulsive to them, and killing one of their own children to satisfy honour is absolutely the right thing for them to do. You've already given examples yourself which support Honour Killings being a cultural norm.

If it were the other way around, you'd probably be saying "It doesn't matter what spin you try and put on it - a woman out in public drinking alcohol and wearing a bikini around men is ABSOLUTELY worse than killing for the sake of family honour!"

What part of this don't you understand?
It's not that I don't understand, it's that your position fluctuates between, it's not OK but what can anyone do short of another war, and it's OK because it's their culture, we shouldn't judge by our standards. So which is it, OK by a different but legitimate cultural value, or not OK but you see no reason to interfere, or benefit in doing so?

Regardless, I don't agree with either of your premises.

Some things are not OK on the basis of it just being another culture: child slavery, severe oppression of women, murder for superstitious or cultural beliefs, disfigurement including amputations as punishment, torture, political imprisonment, child abuse, elder abuse, abuse of the disabled, abuse of the the mentally ill, rape, genocide....

Those are all beyond my moral limits regardless of my respect for cultural differences.
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Old 8th November 2012, 09:43 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
So you're having trouble understanding that someone raised in a totally different culture to yours, with completely different values and standards handed down through generations might not see anything wrong with Honour Killing? That just because YOU think it's a bad thing, they should as well?

One man's meat is another man's poison, and all that...
I used to believe this naive position. I still have tremendous respect for cultural differences.

But I've grown up enough to recognize there are human limits, there is human morality and culture is not a reason to accept certain immoral things as OK.
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Old 8th November 2012, 09:52 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
We get it, you just don't like our response.
No, I was addressing Nessie, and I genuinely didn't think he understood my position. Are you generally in the habit of telling people what they think, or am I just lucky?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's not that I don't understand
That's great - I don't remember asking you if you understood though.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
it's that your position fluctuates between, it's not OK but what can anyone do short of another war,
No. That's not my position.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
and it's OK because it's their culture, we shouldn't judge by our standards.
Nor is this. When have I said at any time that 'it' is 'OK'? 'It' being 'Honour Killings'.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So which is it, OK by a different but legitimate cultural value, or not OK but you see no reason to interfere, or benefit in doing so?
Neither.

My position is, 'It' is not 'OK', but we should not drive change, rather support change from within.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Regardless, I don't agree with either of your premises.
Neither do I, because they weren't mine.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Some things are not OK on the basis of it just being another culture: child slavery, severe oppression of women, murder for superstitious or cultural beliefs, disfigurement including amputations as punishment, torture, political imprisonment, child abuse, elder abuse, abuse of the disabled, abuse of the the mentally ill, rape, genocide....

Those are all beyond my moral limits regardless of my respect for cultural differences.
I'm not OK with any of these things either. Neither would I be OK with forcing cultural change on any society practicing any of these things. I would potentially be OK with supporting cultural change within a society where many people were calling for it.

Tell me, you know certain primitive tribes practice ritual mutilation on young men/boys as part of a 'Rite of Manhood' ceremony - it's quite horrific - how do you feel about that?
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