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Tags honor killing , islam , pakistan , traditional societies

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Old 8th November 2012, 08:54 AM   #121
SatansMaleVoiceChoir
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I used to believe this naive position. I still have tremendous respect for cultural differences.

But I've grown up enough to recognize there are human limits, there is human morality and culture is not a reason to accept certain immoral things as OK.
You've 'grown up' enough to think that forcing your values on another culture who are doing something you don't agree with is a viable solution?
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Old 8th November 2012, 08:54 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I used to believe this naive position. I still have tremendous respect for cultural differences.

But I've grown up enough to recognize there are human limits, there is human morality and culture is not a reason to accept certain immoral things as OK.
.
Growing up is very painful when it removes the voice of all authority and replaces it with laws and restrictions on behavior. Over in the Whogivesashitastans, it's the village elders and mullahs that will fight to your death... not theirs, they only incite, and don't participate in what they incite..
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Old 8th November 2012, 09:01 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Or as fanatical as their culture dictates they be.
Or the law dictates. I've seen this in action; a sadistic mysogynist is constrained in his sadism by local law, but returns right to it upon getting back to the old country. These folks brag about it to me, how they're gonna treat "their" women when they get back, or how they wish they could while here.

Amazing how they restrain their fanaticism; this isn't culture but convenience.
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Old 8th November 2012, 09:17 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
There is likely to be an increase in the number of honor killings in the short term as Middle Eastern countries shift into western economic systems. As objective conditions change, familial and community structures change. Those in formerly privileged positions will become less powerful and less important. There will be reactionary responses to those changes.

Someone here suggested that dragging the Klan into the 20th century was the proper response. And while that is true, it wasn't the Chinese or the Italians who came from overseas to do it, it was done by Americans, and many of them southerners. The same is true of the Mid East. They will be dragged into the new cultural norm by themselves. Efforts to impose your values on me will generally result in my further entrenchment of my values. The Crusades didn't actually work. Sending in the Marines to "liberate" the women of the Mid East is likely to have about the same level of success.
No one suggested sending in the marines. And while the Chinese didn't voice their disgust with the Klan, the Northerners did.

The world is smaller now, and the 'West' can serve as a tool to illuminate the 'wrongness' of certain cultural behaviors such as honor killings. The parents in the OP case were arrested. Hopefully they'll be punished. The 'culture' of these countries and groups is changing. Exposure in the world arena results in backlash, just like the images of dogs being set on marchers on the Edmund Pettus Bridge and the face of Emmett Till in his coffin resulted in a backlash from 'outsiders' who recognized the immorality of black oppression.

In the 50s and 60s America, it was the rest of the country. In the century of global Internet, it is the rest of the world. We can indeed exert social pressure to speed up the cultural changes and help the women and children who are the victims of these cultures.
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Old 8th November 2012, 09:23 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
You've 'grown up' enough to think that forcing your values on another culture who are doing something you don't agree with is a viable solution?
You suggest a false dichotomy by saying "forcing" as if there is no other means of influence.
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Old 8th November 2012, 09:25 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Or the law dictates. I've seen this in action; a sadistic mysogynist is constrained in his sadism by local law, but returns right to it upon getting back to the old country. These folks brag about it to me, how they're gonna treat "their" women when they get back, or how they wish they could while here.

Amazing how they restrain their fanaticism; this isn't culture but convenience.
Change is not necessarily as fast as people might like it to be.

We can observe bacteria evolve. While it's not as easy to see people evolving, that doesn't mean they aren't.
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Old 8th November 2012, 09:29 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Or the law dictates. I've seen this in action; a sadistic mysogynist is constrained in his sadism by local law, but returns right to it upon getting back to the old country. These folks brag about it to me, how they're gonna treat "their" women when they get back, or how they wish they could while here.

Amazing how they restrain their fanaticism; this isn't culture but convenience.
Surely this is a case of you can take the person out of the culture but not the culture out of the person? They may be delaying gratification while under the more restrictive laws so it's effecting their behaviour in the short term but their thoughts and intentions are apparently still shaped by the culture that formed them and they intend to return to. In this case your subject was clever enough to restrain himself until he could legally carry out his desires, if that option had not existed maybe he wouldn't have done it but alternately maybe he'd have done it under the more restrictive laws and tried to hide it?
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Old 8th November 2012, 09:33 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
...My position is, 'It' is not 'OK', but we should not drive change, rather support change from within.
So you misunderstand then, what people are suggesting be done.

What does support change from within mean? How do you do that if you voice the opinion 'it's their culture' as an apology?


Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
...I'm not OK with any of these things either. Neither would I be OK with forcing cultural change on any society practicing any of these things. I would potentially be OK with supporting cultural change within a society where many people were calling for it.

Tell me, you know certain primitive tribes practice ritual mutilation on young men/boys as part of a 'Rite of Manhood' ceremony - it's quite horrific - how do you feel about that?
At some point, that too will need to be addressed. There is too much else to do first, so it doesn't take up much of my waking thoughts.
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Old 8th November 2012, 09:36 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Surely this is a case of you can take the person out of the culture but not the culture out of the person? They may be delaying gratification while under the more restrictive laws so it's effecting their behaviour in the short term but their thoughts and intentions are apparently still shaped by the culture that formed them and they intend to return to. In this case your subject was clever enough to restrain himself until he could legally carry out his desires, if that option had not existed maybe he wouldn't have done it but alternately maybe he'd have done it under the more restrictive laws and tried to hide it?
Some of the white kids involved in attacking the the first black kids to go to their school have personally apologized to the black kids they attacked. Believe it or not, people do actually change major cultural beliefs. Not everyone, of course, and not all at once. But culture does change.
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Old 8th November 2012, 09:40 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Regardless, I don't agree with either of your premises.

Some things are not OK on the basis of it just being another culture: child slavery, severe oppression of women, murder for superstitious or cultural beliefs, disfigurement including amputations as punishment, torture, political imprisonment, child abuse, elder abuse, abuse of the disabled, abuse of the the mentally ill, rape, genocide....

Those are all beyond my moral limits regardless of my respect for cultural differences.
This is interesting because it touches on a perennial topic on JREFR&P - are moral values relative or absolute?

If moral values are absolute, it makes sense to say that the above are not OK. If moral values are relative - then why does one person's view of what is or is not morally acceptable take precedence over the views of the people involved?

Of course, if one is a total moral relativist then it makes no sense to insist that people have the right to decide things for themselves. You might think that people have the right to decide things for themselves - but how does that view take precedence over the view that I am allowed to intervene and prevent that from happening?

Not being a moral relativist, I am quite happy to condemn certain things as absolutely wrong. Trying to keep moral relativism and moral condemnation both in the air at once involves very skillful juggling.
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Old 8th November 2012, 09:44 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Some of the white kids involved in attacking the the first black kids to go to their school have personally apologized to the black kids they attacked. Believe it or not, people do actually change major cultural beliefs. Not everyone, of course, and not all at once. But culture does change.
.
And while we experience the change personally. The 1964 Civil Rights Act for one. I went from going to integrated schools from 1944 to 1953 in Kansas and Germany to the segregation existing in Virginia until 1956, when I went to an integrated college. Now all schools are integrated, and better for it. And there's no separate "facilities".. blacks no longer must go to the rear of the bus.. or sit in the balcony in the theater..
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Old 8th November 2012, 09:55 AM   #132
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Can I just point out that at no point have I said invade and impose our will on those nations who practice honour killings. I have instead repeatedly said we would support campaigns in those countries for change within and make it clear in our country it is wholly unacceptable.

To that I would add support for the UN campaign against it

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.as...1#.UJvwpYZRySo

so there is international pressure and I would like to see women fleeing honour killings as prime candidates for refugee status here.

Nothing there suggests imposing our will on those countries in the fashion SMVC is going on about. I see campaigns, protests, riots by those countries trying to impose their primarily Islamic beliefs on us. If they went as far as sanctions to do that, I would respond.

I am not aware of any campaigns by supporters of honour killings to have such done elsewhere. It only appears acceptable in their own culture as I am sure they are aware no other culture would ever accept such repression and repugnant acts.
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Old 8th November 2012, 10:10 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
I think you misunderstand me - I'm talking about those who commit 'Honour Killings' being punished by law; not the social/religious 'crimes' of the victims.
You're right. I did misunderstand you. Unfortunately, however, perpetrators of honor killings are dealt with quite leniently in places like Pakistan and Jordan, such as the mother who murdered her own daughter getting a two year sentence or the brother who murdered his sister getting a seven year sentence. Impose the death penalty in all cases without exception and the rate of honor killing might well drop.

Governments in those benighted countries could also set up camps to which those bringing dishonor on their families could be sent as opposed to them being killed. At these camps, the girls (mostly) sent there would have their names changed and would never be returned to their families. They could re-enter society somewhere else, preferably in a large city.

We, of course, can do little but apply such pressures as embargoes and sanctions.
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Old 8th November 2012, 10:12 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Surely this is a case of you can take the person out of the culture but not the culture out of the person?
No this was a case of a person using his culture as an excuse to be abusive and sadistic.

And it wasn't just one case either.

I should add that in one case the father bemoaned the fact that his daughter had escaped the household to become a dentist of all things, and was no longer under his thumb.

Her money is accepted however.

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Old 8th November 2012, 10:36 AM   #135
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Another problem with honor killings and the clash of cultures occurs when these scumbags come into our culture and try to impose their values here. The is particularly true of the honor killings of Amina and Sarah Said by their own father. In such cases, we should show no mercy. Not only should the perpetrator be summarily put to death, but those in the family who facilitated or cooperated with the murderer should be harshly prosecuted.
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Old 8th November 2012, 11:30 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
No one suggested sending in the marines.
Many were suggesting appropriate punishments for the parents, regardless of the fact that they face trial and punishment in their own country. How are we to impose these suggested punishments without force?

But in all honesty, I was being a bit hyperbolic there. I don't think people were suggesting force of arms.


Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And while the Chinese didn't voice their disgust with the Klan, the Northerners did.
Not entirely. The Klan was at one time quite well represented in the Northern states. The primary assault on segregation came from the clash of the predominately urban and industrialized culture vs the predominately rural and agrarian culture. It was the shift in economic conditions which precipitated the civil rights movement. Many Southerners were also as involved in the movement (all of the black southerners, and a non-trivial percentage of whites as well).

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The world is smaller now, and the 'West' can serve as a tool to illuminate the 'wrongness' of certain cultural behaviors such as honor killings.
And I agree with this.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The parents in the OP case were arrested. Hopefully they'll be punished. The 'culture' of these countries and groups is changing. Exposure in the world arena results in backlash,
But you have to remember that exposure to western culture also results in a backlash of the entrenched power structure.


Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
just like the images of dogs being set on marchers on the Edmund Pettus Bridge and the face of Emmett Till in his coffin resulted in a backlash from 'outsiders' who recognized the immorality of black oppression.

In the 50s and 60s America, it was the rest of the country. In the century of global Internet, it is the rest of the world. We can indeed exert social pressure to speed up the cultural changes and help the women and children who are the victims of these cultures.
It wasn't the outsiders being affected by those images as much as it was the Southerners themselves. The power structure that supported segregation and oppression lost the general support of the population over time.

Remember that pressure was brought from other areas of the US, but it was still the US. It will be the same in Pakistan or Jordan or Turkey. The change will come from the more western and urban centers of those countries, and they will ultimately change the state of affairs in the rural and tribal areas.
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Old 8th November 2012, 11:30 AM   #137
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Here's another example of the horror of honor killing (from the article, emphasis added):

He waited one evening, callously, for his daughter to come home. When she opened the door to her home, he surprised her with the tip of a six inch steel blade. Her brother watched as his father silently pressed the cold metal into the soft bare skin of his daughter's chest. In mere seconds he applied enough pressure that the blade slowly became completely buried within the girl's fragile body.

Following the first thrust, he repeatedly and violently stabbed at her body, until he had inflicted seventeen wounds to her lifeless chest, arms, neck and stomach. After a short time has passed, he called the police to turn himself in, but not before he was completely sure that no amount of resuscitation could return breath to the cold dead body that now occupied his living room floor.

The murder of his daughter has restored honor to his family. The father was convicted of killing his daughter for honor and received a sentence of three months in jail. The brother who watched and did nothing was not even arrested.

The article also mentions this incident (emphasis added):

In 2000, a thirteen year old girl was murdered in Jordan by her older brother, Anas. Word got out that his youngest brother had raped her. "I could not stand how people looked at me when I walked on the street," Anas said. "People were saying that my sister was not pure."

Less than one week after the rape of his sister took place, Anas confronted his tortured sister. He choked her with a rope, immobilizing her. The younger brother, the one who raped the rapist, then struck his sister repeatedly with an ax while their father observed.

"Our sister's impurity brought great dishonor to the family," Anas told me, "She had to die. Now I can walk down the street a proud man knowing that honor has been restored to my family."

Anas and his brother were sentenced to only five months in jail each for the brutal and premeditated murder of their innocent sister who was only barely a teenager.

To this day, Anas is proud of his deed. During this interview he was in a state of excited bragging, and offered details too awful to print. It speaks great volumes to the level at which this type of action is tolerated in the Islamic world, even in Jordan, a progressive Muslim state.

Post 121 by SatansMaleVoiceChoir : You've 'grown up' enough to think that forcing your values on another culture who are doing something you don't agree with is a viable solution?

I would have no compunction about forcing my values on this society, one in which incestuous raping brothers get five months in jail for raping and murdering their sisters.Had I the power, I would run roughshod over such cultures and grind them into the dust. Therein, however lies the problem: We probaly don't have the power to directly force such change. It will probably have to come from within.
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Old 8th November 2012, 12:22 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
....

We, of course, can do little but apply such pressures as embargoes and sanctions.
You may be underestimating the influence of global culture. People can't help but feel their culture is backward when they are connected by satellite and can see images of a US freeway while they have dirt roads and carts. It takes a while for cultural pressures to filter on down to the lowest rungs, but at other levels people are influenced when they see theirs is one of the few cultures left oppressing women. Then there is the fact the women see the images as well and see that other women are not being treated as they are, and 'gods' are not punishing everyone.
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Old 8th November 2012, 12:28 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You may be underestimating the influence of global culture. People can't help but feel their culture is backward when they are connected by satellite and can see images of a US freeway while they have dirt roads and carts. It takes a while for cultural pressures to filter on down to the lowest rungs, but at other levels people are influenced when they see theirs is one of the few cultures left oppressing women. Then there is the fact the women see the images as well and see that other women are not being treated as they are, and 'gods' are not punishing everyone.
These are all good points. Urbinization and industrialization will hasten the breakdown of any traditional society. However, Turkey recently experienced a spike in honor killings. Here's the opening sentences from the article (emphasis added):

A drastic rise in reported "honor" killings and fatal domestic violence in Turkey has sparked a vigorous debate about the government's recent attempts to address the problem. It also highlights the clash of conservative values with the country's rapid modernization.

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Old 8th November 2012, 12:38 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
Many were suggesting appropriate punishments for the parents, regardless of the fact that they face trial and punishment in their own country.
It was both.

Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
How are we to impose these suggested punishments without force?
Saying what you believe should happen doesn't mean, one, that you also agree to impose said punishment with force or other coercion, and two, that saying so has no impact.


Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
Not entirely. The Klan was at one time quite well represented in the Northern states. The primary assault on segregation came from the clash of the predominately urban and industrialized culture vs the predominately rural and agrarian culture. It was the shift in economic conditions which precipitated the civil rights movement. Many Southerners were also as involved in the movement (all of the black southerners, and a non-trivial percentage of whites as well).
I was making a point about a significant social change using two tiny examples. Your nitpiks totally miss the point. The point is social pressure comes from many more places than one's rural village.


Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
But you have to remember that exposure to western culture also results in a backlash of the entrenched power structure.
Two steps forward, one step back pretty much describes typical progress of major social change.



Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
Remember that pressure was brought from other areas of the US, but it was still the US. I...
The US, at the time, wasn't in the global village with the Internet and satellite broadcasts we now have.

Looking back historically, the Vietnam War was the first to be seen in people's living rooms. That had a huge impact. The civil rights movement was also in our homes. Now an honor killing in a remote Afghan village can be the focus of Twitterville or FaceBookistan for weeks. The impact will be felt.
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Old 8th November 2012, 12:42 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
These are all good points. Urbinization and industrialization will hasten the breakdown of any traditional society. However, Turkey recently experienced a spike in honor killings. Here's the opening sentences from the article (emphasis added):

A drastic rise in reported "honor" killings and fatal domestic violence in Turkey has sparked a vigorous debate about the government's recent attempts to address the problem. It also highlights the clash of conservative values with the country's rapid modernization.
To reiterate, two steps forward, one step back does not mean change is not occurring.

And I don't know, was there a spike in killings or a spike in reports of killings that might otherwise have gone unnoticed or been covered up as some other cause of death?
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Old 8th November 2012, 01:52 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
It speaks great volumes to the level at which this type of action is tolerated in the Islamic world, even in Jordan, a progressive Muslim state.
AFAIAA, Jordan is particularly prone to this. It's on the boundaries that this is particularly prevalent.
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Old 9th November 2012, 12:54 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Or the law dictates. I've seen this in action; a sadistic mysogynist is constrained in his sadism by local law, but returns right to it upon getting back to the old country. These folks brag about it to me, how they're gonna treat "their" women when they get back, or how they wish they could while here.

Amazing how they restrain their fanaticism; this isn't culture but convenience.
I don't doubt you've seen this. But to say this is nothing to do with culture is a bit short-sighted. We - Westerners - call it sadistic or mysogynistic, they call it normal; they probably don't even have an equivalent word for 'mysogynistic'.

I think what you are seeing is people relocated to a different culture from their own, seeing how women are treated within our culture, fearing/loathing it and wishing they could behave like they did in 'the old country', or even longing to return in order to maintain the status quo.
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Old 9th November 2012, 12:57 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You suggest a false dichotomy by saying "forcing" as if there is no other means of influence.
So how do you 'influence' another culture to take up your moral values and stop being (what you consider) immoral?

When I use the word 'force', I don't necessarily mean 'physical violence'.
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Old 9th November 2012, 01:13 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So you misunderstand then, what people are suggesting be done.
I don't think I do... Go back over the thread and have a good look at what many people are suggesting be done.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
What does support change from within mean?
Really? OK...

First there has to be a call for change from within - a large cultural shift. There's no point trying to do anything if it's a tiny minority calling for change. Once there is a large enough cultural shift in attitudes, there would probably be no need for external support anyway, but support can be provided by means of advice and guidance, if requested - that's the important bit.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
How do you do that if you voice the opinion 'it's their culture' as an apology?
I have? You really don't understand my position at all, do you?

If a culture begins to change from within, and wants outside help, then by all means we should help them. This does not mean that other (Western) cultures who consider themselves more developed should feel free to dive in and force change just because they don't like what the others are doing.

Please explain how I am 'apologising' for anything.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
At some point, that too will need to be addressed. There is too much else to do first, so it doesn't take up much of my waking thoughts.
Hang on; young men - boys even - are being horribly mutilated and tortured by their elders for fear of being shunned by the tribe and never being able to marry, and this is something you don't really think too much about? Shouldn't we be dragging these primitives screaming and kicking into the 21st century?
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Old 9th November 2012, 01:18 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The world is smaller now, and the 'West' can serve as a tool to illuminate the 'wrongness' of certain cultural behaviors such as honor killings.
The world is much smaller, and the Chinese are much stronger and larger. I'm assuming you'll welcome them with open arms should they decide it is their duty to illuminate the 'wrongness' of many of your cultural behaviours?
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Old 9th November 2012, 01:25 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
Post 121 by SatansMaleVoiceChoir : You've 'grown up' enough to think that forcing your values on another culture who are doing something you don't agree with is a viable solution?

I would have no compunction about forcing my values on this society, one in which incestuous raping brothers get five months in jail for raping and murdering their sisters.Had I the power, I would run roughshod over such cultures and grind them into the dust.
Don't get me wrong; I agree, and I'd love to. But where does it end, and really - what gives us the right to measure their cultural values against ours, and decide ours are the 'purest'?

Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
Therein, however lies the problem: We probaly don't have the power to directly force such change. It will probably have to come from within.
And again, you're right, and we have to hold to this or we would be dominating a power weaker than us for not conforming to our standards...
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Old 9th November 2012, 01:28 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
We, of course, can do little but apply such pressures as embargoes and sanctions.
Which amounts to forcing other cultures to conform to our values and standards.
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Old 9th November 2012, 04:12 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Don't get me wrong; I agree, and I'd love to. But where does it end, and really - what gives us the right to measure their cultural values against ours, and decide ours are the 'purest'?
Seriously? The sanctity of human life does. This goes beyond cultural values -- we are not discussing preference of clothing styles or food here.

It really irks me when people place "cultural values" on a higher level of importance than human lives. And, it seems to me that some people are more likely to do so when its women lives at stake.

Do you have the same concern about "cultural values" when discussing African slavery? Or about South African apartheid before 1990?

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Old 9th November 2012, 04:18 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Kaylee View Post
Seriously? The sanctity of human life does. This goes beyond cultural values
Who says?
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Old 9th November 2012, 04:52 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
I don't doubt you've seen this. But to say this is nothing to do with culture is a bit short-sighted. We - Westerners - call it sadistic or mysogynistic, they call it normal; they probably don't even have an equivalent word for 'mysogynistic'.

I think what you are seeing is people relocated to a different culture from their own, seeing how women are treated within our culture, fearing/loathing it and wishing they could behave like they did in 'the old country', or even longing to return in order to maintain the status quo.
I think you're a bit naive; certainly their culture plays a role in their mysogyny, but you should see how they treat their American girlfriends.
Suddenly, they're all opened-minded and 21st century; that little head has quite the noggin on it when it comes to getting themselves some. Of course they treat their wives back home same/same.

No, it's convenience when they slip from culture to culture changing colors like chameleons.
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Old 9th November 2012, 05:28 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
I don't doubt you've seen this. But to say this is nothing to do with culture is a bit short-sighted. We - Westerners - call it sadistic or mysogynistic, they call it normal; they probably don't even have an equivalent word for 'mysogynistic'.

I think what you are seeing is people relocated to a different culture from their own, seeing how women are treated within our culture, fearing/loathing it and wishing they could behave like they did in 'the old country', or even longing to return in order to maintain the status quo.
I just do not see how it can be called normal to kill daughters who have been raped by their own siblings. It is not normal behavouir in any shape or form and I am sure even they must know it is horrible and cruel. I can prove that by taking the rapist son, pouring acid over him and then setting him on fire. I am sure they would object to me doing that, hence proving they understand it is wrong.
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Old 9th November 2012, 05:31 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
The world is much smaller, and the Chinese are much stronger and larger. I'm assuming you'll welcome them with open arms should they decide it is their duty to illuminate the 'wrongness' of many of your cultural behaviours?
Honour killings is an extreme form of cultural behaviour that ranks along side cannibalism, slavery and head hunting. We have no such thing in our society, so the Chinese have nothing to find when it comes to changing another's culture which is reasonable.
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Old 9th November 2012, 05:31 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
I think you're a bit naive; certainly their culture plays a role in their mysogyny, but you should see how they treat their American girlfriends.
Suddenly, they're all opened-minded and 21st century; that little head has quite the noggin on it when it comes to getting themselves some. Of course they treat their wives back home same/same.

No, it's convenience when they slip from culture to culture changing colors like chameleons.
Oh god... I'll revoke my "short-sighted" comment, and raise it to "narrow-minded"... You haven't a clue what makes these people tick, have you? A huge majority of Middle Eastern cultures have spent thousands of years valuing women as nothing more than a necessary commodity/means of reproducing the male bloodline; it's taught at a fundamental level in their society, and you think it's just because they're all sexists and sadists?!

Have you actually been somewhere like Afghanistan, to areas where life isn't much different now than it was 100 years ago - certainly in terms of culture? Have you spoken to these people (at least the ones who WILL speak to Infidels)? I have, and I'll categorically state that you are wrong.
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Old 9th November 2012, 05:34 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
....... A huge majority of Middle Eastern cultures have spent thousands of years valuing women as nothing more than a necessary commodity/means of reproducing the male bloodline; it's taught at a fundamental level in their society, and you think it's just because they're all sexists and sadists?!

........
Their culture has allowed males to flourish and dominate as sexists and sadists. That is what they are.
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Old 9th November 2012, 05:35 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Oh god... I'll revoke my "short-sighted" comment, and raise it to "narrow-minded"... You haven't a clue what makes these people tick, have you? A huge majority of Middle Eastern cultures have spent thousands of years valuing women as nothing more than a necessary commodity/means of reproducing the male bloodline; it's taught at a fundamental level in their society, and you think it's just because they're all sexists and sadists?!

Have you actually been somewhere like Afghanistan, to areas where life isn't much different now than it was 100 years ago - certainly in terms of culture? Have you spoken to these people (at least the ones who WILL speak to Infidels)? I have, and I'll categorically state that you are wrong.
And haven spoken to an Iraqi (just this morning!)that lived outside of Mosul (near Nineveh)for most of his life until emigrating here I'll categorically state you're overstating your case.

Now what?

ps:

I'm very narrow-minded towards honor murder, I freely admit.

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Old 9th November 2012, 05:43 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Female public nudity is an extreme form of cultural behaviour that ranks along side depicting the Prophet, apostasy and allowing women to flirt with men. We have no such thing in our society, but the decadent Westerners do. It is our holy duty to show them the error of their ways
There's your quote from the perspective of a culture that believes killing a female child is the only way to maintain family honour.

I merely used the Chinese as an example of a large, powerful nation that wouldn't have too much trouble 'policing the world' if they wanted to. The question I'm raising is not why they would do it, but what if they DID do it - what would give them the right to do so?
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Old 9th November 2012, 05:47 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
And haven spoken to an Iraqi (just this morning!)that lived outside of Mosul (near Nineveh)for most of his life until emigrating here I'll categorically state you're overstating your case.

Now what?
My god - you spoke to ONE Iraqi THIS morning?! I bow to your unlimited experience of these people! I see now how you are able to write off entire cultures as sadistic sexists!

No, not really.

I take it you speak Iraqi Arabic or Kurdish then?
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Old 9th November 2012, 06:00 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
My god - you spoke to ONE Iraqi THIS morning?! I bow to your unlimited experience of these people! I see now how you are able to write off entire cultures as sadistic sexists!

No, not really.

I take it you speak Iraqi Arabic or Kurdish then?
Actually working for me, with me, and around me are:

Three Iraqis (one muslim, 2 assyrian)

2 Pakistani muslims

2 Indian hindis

1 Indian muslim

Syrian assyrian

A number of catholic Mexicans

3 pentecostal Mexicans.

I've worked with, for and around a number of different Middle-Eastern (and beyond) cultures for nearly 40 years; my MIL worked and lived in Kuwait and Saudi for a number of years and I'm friends with her friends as it were.

I am sadly only bi-lingual in Spanish.

Resume's resume so to speak.

You may now continue with your regularly scheduled imagined superiority.

Last edited by Resume; 9th November 2012 at 06:06 AM.
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Old 9th November 2012, 06:06 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Their culture has allowed males to flourish and dominate as sexists and sadists. That is what they are.
'Allowed'?! That IS their culture. You make it sound like it was a conscious decision on the part of all males to become sexists a few years ago.

Rewind our culture 1000 years; were we being deliberately sexist in our treatment of women or was it just the cultural norm? Are you seriously suggesting that every male was deliberately sexist?
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