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Old 19th November 2012, 03:14 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Bart Ehrman believes Jesus certainly existed, so Christians (who believe morality comes from Jesus) can claim morality does not come from an imaginary being (imaginary being was the wording mentioned in the quote I responded to.)
You didn't answer the question. Since any Jesus who existed was mortal and not divine, why do you believe that morality comes from him? Where did it come from prior to 2000 years ago?

Do you believe that a god murdering millions would be moral?
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Old 19th November 2012, 03:19 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
No answer for the part about a god murdering millions in a global flood being moral or not?
The bible says, the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away.

Last edited by DOC; 19th November 2012 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 19th November 2012, 03:23 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
The bible says, the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away.
He's a murdering sod, you're god. No better morals than his believers. Which is to say "most horrible".
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Old 19th November 2012, 03:47 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
The bible says, the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away.
You still aren't answering the question that is asked. Is it moral behavior to commit genocide and murder millions in a global flood?
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Old 19th November 2012, 04:32 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
You still aren't answering the question that is asked. Is it moral behavior to commit genocide and murder millions in a global flood?
More than millions. The entire animal life on the planet. Because of a design flaw in his creations, one he didn't fix with mass murder, causing him to send himself on a suicide mission, which, of course, didn't fix the problem either.

Why, again, does anyone worship this clown?
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Old 19th November 2012, 09:30 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So if the German society of 1943 determines that it is in their best interest to exterminate the Jews, and to destroy the Soviet Union killing millions of people, then they can claim it is right to do so?

All of this is related to the so-called "Moral Argument" for the existence of God.
Yes. They can. And did. And the vast majority of the population seemed to have no problems with it at all.
Using your argument, if it would have been immoral then the god-given morality in all of us would have caused the entire german population to rise up agains the regime in outrage as the hard-core morality was violated.
Either that, or your god actually condoned the actions and thus the german population was quiet and happy as they were acting morally.

Now, I don't seem to recall all-out rebellion in the german population when the holocaust and the invasion of europe and the soviet union was going on. Is your claim than that Jesus was happy with that situation?

As a relativist I would claim that the nazis could claim that all they want, the rest of humanity disagrees and what is deemed moral and immoral is basically a form of majority voting. The nazi's lost.
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Old 20th November 2012, 01:34 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Garnabby View Post
The "concept" had been, and by primarily an ancient philosopher. Besides, i'm sure that most of them, the journal sorts, already know this.

That has absolutely nothing to do with it lol.

We are talking about whether or not Einstein (as your example) needed to reference publications by various philosophers as the true and original authors who had genuinely discovered & explained relativity theory.

In general, scientific research papers do not need to reference philosophers, ancient or modern, because whilst all sorts of people may at one time or other have made all sorts of guesses about the universe, mere guesses of that sort do not constitute a true discovery or explanation of things such as Relativity or QM (or even Evolution).

Most people know that as far back as 400BC Democritus and Leucippus (and others) had proposed the idea of ďatomsĒ as tiny indivisible components of solid visible objects. However, that is not a genuine explanation or discovery in the scientific sense that later emerged with the discovery of sub-atomic particles by scientists like Chadwick and the Curies etc., and the explanations of people like Heisenberg and Dirac.

Scientists do not rely on philosophers first explaining to them what they should do in order to study, discover or explain things in our universe. Which is, as I say, why scientific papers rarely if ever need to reference the work of philosophers.



Originally Posted by Garnabby View Post
I, myself, wouldn't presume to "think what Hawking is probably talking about". Anyway, time certainly isn't a consequence, or property, of what did, or didn't, happen to space. (Haven't heard that before.)


I donít have to "presume" it either -Hawking and most other theoretical physicists have discussed this to death. Time is thought to have a beginning in the sense that what we call "time" would not (according to most current models) have any existence before the inflationary stage of the big bang.

Space also has no existence at that point.

It is the inflationary Big Bang process itself that leads instantaneously to conversion of a null vacuum energy into the production of "Space-Time" .... the "time" component is part of what we call "space".

Although you say you have never heard of such a thing, you can find that explanation in all of Hawkings popular level books.
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Old 20th November 2012, 04:15 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Well as far as Christians go, Jesus (whom Christians believe is part of the Godhead and God in the flesh) is not an imaginary being, if we are to believe skeptic Bart Ehrman who said "Jesus certainly existed" in his latest book. So at least according to Christians' beliefs, it can be argued that morality does not come from an imaginary being.
If one assumes that Jesus was an actual flesh-and-blood preacher--and that seems reasonable enough--then anyone who claims that Jesus is the source of morality has reduced their idea of morality to something incredibly trivial: the personal opinions of some random guy.
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Old 20th November 2012, 04:28 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Well as far as Christians go, Jesus (whom Christians believe is part of the Godhead and God in the flesh) is not an imaginary being, if we are to believe skeptic Bart Ehrman who said "Jesus certainly existed" in his latest book. So at least according to Christians' beliefs, it can be argued that morality does not come from an imaginary being.
You can believe who you like, a skeptic is more interested in the evidence around any claim.
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Old 20th November 2012, 04:38 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Garnabby View Post
Maybe, along the same reasoning, philosophy was "finding out too many things, or something".

Seriously, though, eg, even the plus, and minus, signs must come from somewhere and sometime. And each of math, and morality, make use of those, albeit in superficially-different own ways.
Then I'll ask the question I asked earlier in this thread.

'What has philosophy discovered?'

I can list the discoveries of science, it is a very long list, so what are the achievements of philosophy, and please, no stealing what scientists have discovered and claiming it for philosophers.
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Old 20th November 2012, 05:28 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Bart Ehrman believes Jesus certainly existed, so Christians (who believe morality comes from Jesus) can claim morality does not come from an imaginary being (imaginary being was the wording mentioned in the quote I responded to.)
Does his belief make the existence of Jesus more likely?
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Old 20th November 2012, 05:38 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
More than millions. The entire animal life on the planet. Because of a design flaw in his creations, one he didn't fix with mass murder, causing him to send himself on a suicide mission, which, of course, didn't fix the problem either.

Why, again, does anyone worship this clown?
(musings)
As I was taught Christianity god had a plan for man after the fall and that was to send JC to save us. Given that plan the flood makes no sense at all. Why kill off all mankind because of evil when you've got a plan to save us from evil?
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Old 20th November 2012, 05:51 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Acleron View Post
Then I'll ask the question I asked earlier in this thread.

'What has philosophy discovered?'

I can list the discoveries of science, it is a very long list, so what are the achievements of philosophy, and please, no stealing what scientists have discovered and claiming it for philosophers.
C'mon now, we all know that scientists are trapped in a superluminal blurr, unable to tell what the underlying essence of the universe is until the philosophers illuminate the terrain with semantic lightening strikes laying bare the quantum qualia nature of existence.
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Old 20th November 2012, 06:09 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
(musings)
As I was taught Christianity god had a plan for man after the fall and that was to send JC to save us. Given that plan the flood makes no sense at all. Why kill off all mankind because of evil when you've got a plan to save us from evil?
The Flood was supposed to fix the mistakes made in the Garden. The Resurrection was supposed to fix the mistakes made in the Garden. God can't get it right. Puny god!
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Old 20th November 2012, 06:10 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
C'mon now, we all know that scientists are trapped in a superluminal blurr, unable to tell what the underlying essence of the universe is until the philosophers illuminate the terrain with semantic lightening strikes laying bare the quantum qualia nature of existence.
"Scientists need the philosophy of science the same way a fish needs ichthyology."

Philosophy is the religion of the atheistic community. I'm an aphilosophist.
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Old 20th November 2012, 08:13 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
(musings)
As I was taught Christianity god had a plan for man after the fall and that was to send JC to save us. Given that plan the flood makes no sense at all. Why kill off all mankind because of evil when you've got a plan to save us from evil?
.
How did that suicide remove the evil flung at humanity at the Fall?
And it seems like there being a "plan" before the Fall to "redeem" man after is psychotic at the very least.
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Old 20th November 2012, 03:55 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by I Ratant View Post
.
How did that suicide remove the evil flung at humanity at the Fall?
And it seems like there being a "plan" before the Fall to "redeem" man after is psychotic at the very least.
Well god didn't come up with the whole sock Jesus thing til after the fall.

ETA: I guess that means we're all the result of plan B

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Old 20th November 2012, 04:06 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Well god didn't come up with the whole sock Jesus thing til after the fall.

ETA: I guess that means we're all the result of plan B
Plan C. Noahcount and his brood were Plan B.

So, three failures for the omnipotent God.

YER OUT!!!!
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Old 20th November 2012, 04:15 PM   #299
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God and devil are the same... it's a matter of perpective.
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
You've probably heard the term "spacetime" or "space/time" though, right? It's one thing - space AND time.
Space isn't time per se. And, the "one thing", as you put it, arises from only the apparent convenience of combining the two directly in those physics-related equations.

So, perhaps, a lot of that way of thinking has served to deepen the cosmological "hole" in which it thusly appears those scientists still find themselves.

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Bending space (with mass, say) also affects time spent in that space, compared to an outside reference. Clocks tick slower. Particles live longer.
Sounds good, but as Einstein reportedly asked, eg, "What IS light?"

Physicists are slow to say what they're really thinking, or to admit to what they haven't a clue. And, it would be a refreshing change to have some good, old-fashioned debate (, eg, even about the Higg's particle here in that thread.) Because brutish equations only beget more equations, as in "pushers get pushed", ask, eg, from where come any equations.

Specifically, logically there's not "exactly" any space either at a point. (Likely a good reason that no one has even begun to figure out such a point.) So, all this spatial "wiggling" aside, what now?

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
That's what current physics says exists, extrapolating from that Relativity thing you think Einstein stole.
Don't the rules here say that the new guys can't post up links to other sites? Technically-supportive quote(s) "cry out" for a link.

Last edited by Garnabby; 20th November 2012 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 20th November 2012, 04:25 PM   #300
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Just post it a bit borked.
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Old 20th November 2012, 04:42 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
Scientists do not rely on philosophers first explaining to them what they should do in order to study, discover or explain things in our universe. Which is, as I say, why scientific papers rarely if ever need to reference the work of philosophers.
Okay, let's all just assume that Einstein never heard of (a "guesser" like) Aristotle, and furthermore, that him, and all the other scientists, "instantaneously" appeared out of that "null vacuum".

All bow down to "the scientists", lol. You win... what?

Originally Posted by IanS View Post
I don’t have to "presume" it either -Hawking and most other theoretical physicists have discussed this to death. Time is thought to have a beginning in the sense that what we call "time" would not (according to most current models) have any existence before the inflationary stage of the big bang.
Then don't use the word "probably", as "discussed to death".

Originally Posted by IanS View Post
Although you say you have never heard of such a thing, you can find that explanation in all of Hawkings popular level books.
Oh, i've heard of that. Just not of someone claiming that time comes out of space within such a point, itself. Even the dictionaries no longer recognize the instantaneous or now as being timeless?

P.S. Einstein did a lot of guessing/fudging on his own, but nothing of the classic sort that's going to withstand a few millennia, in my opinion.

Last edited by Garnabby; 20th November 2012 at 06:12 PM.
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Old 20th November 2012, 06:08 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Acleron View Post
I can list the discoveries of science, it is a very long list, so what are the achievements of philosophy, and please, no stealing what scientists have discovered and claiming it for philosophers.
But can you say with much likelihood that the benefits of that sort of science (in isolation) greatly outweigh the downside? Can science, from this point on, ever (hope to) offset all its outright deaths?

Can you say that the universe's "asking price" has gone up because of some ad hoc scientific advancements. Or that, in a thousand years from now, also the future will still revere the current set of noted scientists?
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Old 20th November 2012, 06:21 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Garnabby View Post
But can you say with much likelihood that the benefits of that sort of science (in isolation) greatly outweigh the downside? Can science, from this point on, ever (hope to) offset all its outright deaths?
Why would you qualify that question with the phrase "in isolation"? What are you trying to get at with the second question? It seems that you are approaching the question as if a body of knowledge or a methodology (science) somehow owes something to humanity... I guess...?


Quote:
Can you say that the universe's "asking price" has gone up because of some ad hoc scientific advancements.
Nonsensical.


Quote:
Or that, in a thousand years from now, also the future will still revere the current set of noted scientists?
Irrelevant.
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Old 21st November 2012, 03:37 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Garnabby View Post
But can you say with much likelihood that the benefits of that sort of science (in isolation) greatly outweigh the downside?
What is 'that sort of science'? Please clarify. In general science's achievements are an increase in knowledge, so again: Any lists of the increase in knowledge found through the application of philosophy?

Quote:
Can science, from this point on, ever (hope to) offset all its outright deaths?
Vaccines and ammonium nitrate come to mind, but this is pretty irrelevant.

Quote:
Can you say that the universe's "asking price" has gone up because of some ad hoc scientific advancements. Or that, in a thousand years from now, also the future will still revere the current set of noted scientists?
I have no idea what the asking price of the universe means. As to telling the future, I leave that to fortune tellers and possibly philosophers.
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Old 21st November 2012, 03:42 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Well as far as Christians go, Jesus (whom Christians believe is part of the Godhead and God in the flesh) is not an imaginary being, if we are to believe skeptic Bart Ehrman who said "Jesus certainly existed" in his latest book. So at least according to Christians' beliefs, it can be argued that morality does not come from an imaginary being.
Holy equivocation, Batman! There you go again...

The Jesus which Erhman (according to you) says existed was a human being. He was not responsible for morality, it existed well before 2000 years ago. Many people do (selectively, to a greater or lesser extent) follow his moral teachings, but they were not original.
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Old 21st November 2012, 07:07 AM   #306
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All humans eventually die.

Scientific advancements have preserved literally billions of lives and almost certainly are responsible for the present population expansion. And every one of those lives only possible because of science will eventually die.

So, yes, science is responsible for far more deaths than any other institution in history.
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Old 21st November 2012, 08:19 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
C'mon now, we all know that scientists are trapped in a superluminal blurr, unable to tell what the underlying essence of the universe is until the philosophers illuminate the terrain with semantic lightening strikes laying bare the quantum qualia nature of existence after being reflected in swamp gas off the planet Venus.
.
Left off the last bit...
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Old 21st November 2012, 08:28 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by AvalonXQ View Post
All humans eventually die.

Scientific advancements have preserved literally billions of lives and almost certainly are responsible for the present population expansion. And every one of those lives only possible because of science will eventually die.

So, yes, science is responsible for far more deaths than any other institution in history.
Saving lives makes science responsible for death?
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Old 21st November 2012, 08:35 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
(musings)
Why kill off all mankind because of evil when you've got a plan to save us from evil?
He forgot.
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Old 21st November 2012, 09:00 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Saving lives makes science responsible for death?
Any attempt to bring logic into religion is doomed to failure.
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Old 21st November 2012, 09:02 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by AvalonXQ View Post
All humans eventually die.

Scientific advancements have preserved literally billions of lives and almost certainly are responsible for the present population expansion. And every one of those lives only possible because of science will eventually die.

So, yes, science is responsible for far more deaths than any other institution in history.
Is there an analogy here for something you think people are unfairly accusing region of for the same reason?
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Old 21st November 2012, 09:09 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
He forgot.
Could be, according to JC god forgot he was dieing on the cross.
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Old 21st November 2012, 09:12 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Any attempt to bring logic into religion is doomed to failure.
Yep, religion destroys logic then asks us to admire the result.
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Old 21st November 2012, 09:37 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Saving lives makes science responsible for death?
.
Read the last sentence -very- carefully.
It is correct.
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Old 21st November 2012, 12:13 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
He forgot.
When you've been around for a gazillion kamillion years, your mind is not as sharp as it once was.
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Old 21st November 2012, 02:05 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Saving lives makes science responsible for death?
Probably an example of that famed Jesuit logic.
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Old 21st November 2012, 02:39 PM   #317
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Reminds me of something I said to my wife the other night, as we were watching a news segment about people trying to save turkeys from being killed for Thanksgiving and adopting them. I said that the turkeys wouldn't have been born in the first place, if people weren't eating them for Thanksgiving, so if everyone turned vegetarian, there would soon be no more turkeys left to save, other than wild turkeys. Same idea.
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Old 21st November 2012, 02:50 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
"Scientists need the philosophy of science the same way a fish needs ichthyology."

Philosophy is the religion of the atheistic community. I'm an aphilosophist.
Philosophy should be classed as one of the arts. There are no objective criteria and you can make it up as you go along.
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Old 21st November 2012, 02:51 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Philosophy should be classed as one of the arts. There are no objective criteria and you can make it up as you go along.
I'm good with calling it a religion.
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Old 21st November 2012, 02:52 PM   #320
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Okay, I can put this to bed. If the believers were really good because of a higher authority, why haven't we seen this yet? They've had thousands of years to start behaving morally, and to date, zippo.
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