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Old 13th November 2012, 12:35 PM   #201
godless dave
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
No one here has stated it.
Why would they have to?
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Old 13th November 2012, 12:40 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
Odd that zeuzz continues to claim there is no hill, when the evidence says a 15m drop.

Is this a mistake on your part zeuzz, or an excuse to hand wave the methods already discussed?
The temple is below the quarry where there is an uncompleted stone of some 1000 ton (previously known as Hajar el-Kubla or the stone in the South)
This stone is now known as the Hajar el-Hubla or The Stone of the Pregnant Woman.
For some reason no-one acknowledges the tremendous columns at the same site.
Why I don't know but they are far more impressive
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Old 13th November 2012, 12:43 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
I'll congratulate you when you stop being condescending and actually post something instead of claiming you know the answer and you did all along, which you only ever do retrospectively. It just comes across as a priori knowledge.

Yeah, yeah, but still, complaining about your lack of explanation isn't getting you any closer. How about tweaking your starting point to actually turn it into a workable solution to the puzzle of lifting the Pregnant Woman Stone 20 feet with several people and some shovels.

My solution, although I admit I haven't been forthcoming about it in order to give you a chance to flex your cleverness, is pretty complete. Your solution still seems to have a bunch of people lifting the stone by an unexplained method to get the dirt under it. You keep at it and you might actually arrive at a plausible, do-able, practical solution that doesn't require mysterious technology, magic, aliens, or throwing up your arms and surrendering to incredulity.

ETA: Added your edited post. As far as knowing the answer all along? Nope. I had never given the matter a lick of thought before last Thursday evening. I looked at the picture you posted before the spam was removed, considered how I would go about lifting such a stone, and came up with a plausible solution. If by a priori knowledge you mean applying the stuff I learned in 5th grade science class, well that would pretty much mean every starting point anyone uses for anything is a priori, which renders the term pretty close to useless.

Last edited by GeeMack; 13th November 2012 at 12:54 PM. Reason: Updated the original quote and replied to it.
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Old 13th November 2012, 12:51 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
By the way, I forgot to ask: how do they know the stone is pregnant?
It peed on a stalagmite, and a little plus sign appeared.
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Old 13th November 2012, 03:40 PM   #205
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Anyway, so what is the compelling evidence that the Romans built the triliton? I commented on the previous 1998 email correspondence someone kindly supplied before. Correct me if you think my analysis is wrong. But I find most references to the whole structure being of Roman origin to be of much more circumstantial evidence than empirical.

The Phoenicians, or perhaps even more ancient cultures than them seem to me to be more likely for various stone-masonry reasons. But I want to hear the Roman argument first.

Last edited by Zeuzzz; 13th November 2012 at 03:42 PM.
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Old 13th November 2012, 04:07 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
It has carvings for pickles and chocolate?
Subtle misspelling joke was subtle. Spooner would be proud.
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Old 13th November 2012, 04:13 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Subtle misspelling joke was subtle. Spooner would be proud.
I'm glad someone caught that. My pith seems to fly under the radar most times.
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Old 13th November 2012, 04:33 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Castro View Post
An interesting source; thanks for posting it.

Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
Odd that zeuzz continues to claim there is no hill, when the evidence says a 15m drop.

Is this a mistake on your part zeuzz, or an excuse to hand wave the methods already discussed?
Odd indeed. I can't imagine why.

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
We haven't even gotten to the evidence of who built them and when yet. We are still stuck on the science.
Roman rubble beneath the stones isn't good enough for you?

Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Copying and pasting large tracts of text from other websites isn't "researching" a webpage. Nearly every sentence on that page came from somewhere else, as you can easily tell by googling the sentences, and looking at the grammar and writing style vs. the OP.
Yeah, that was my impression too.

I'm sorry you don't like the transcript I linked to earlier, Zeuzzz:

http://ancientaliensdebunked.com/ref...ripts/baalbek/

If you'd taken the trouble to actually read it you'd have found a lot of interesting information.
For example:
Quote:
So, did the Romans have the technology to move and lift such stones?

Well, all you have to do is look one country over to find out.

About the same time the Romans were beginning their 200 year project at Baalbek, another project of similar magnitude was beginning by the Roman “client king” Herod “the great” in 19BC.[10]

Herod, using Roman techniques, renovated the temple mount to earn favour with the Jews, who viewed him as a Roman proxy and not a Jew.

The expanded version of the temple was double the size of the original, but in order to make this expansion, he had to incorporate part of the hill to the northeast, which meant that he had to construct a massive retaining wall in order to hold back the force of the earth in order to build the massive platform.

There is a portion of this retaining wall still standing today, and it contains the second largest set of single stones, next to Baalbek.

Just like Baalbek there are several of these stones lined up to form the wall and to provide the weight and size needed to hold back the earth. They call the four largest stones the “Master Course.”[11]

The weight of the heaviest one is 630 tons, only a little over 100 tons less than Baalbek’s biggest stone. And no one denies that these stones were cut, moved and lifted to perfection using Roman and local techniques.[12]
and


Quote:
n conclusion: The trithilon stones are part of a necessary retaining wall, not a foundation, and such walls were common to the Greeks and Romans. The retaining wall was not part of the simple, original, much smaller temple at Baalbek. And we know from other retaining walls of similar size, built by the Romans at the same time and in the same area, time, that they were more than capable of moving and placing stones of that size and shape, also evidenced by their ability to move Obelisks. This is especially true if you gave them 200 years, and some roman pulleys and cranes.

Last edited by pakeha; 13th November 2012 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 13th November 2012, 04:37 PM   #209
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What exactly is the ''mystery''?
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Old 13th November 2012, 04:39 PM   #210
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More jref members here have brought up ancient alien based pages than I would have hoped from such a great and empirically grounded community.

It's almost as if you are resorting to extravagant claims to belittle an argument when the person making the argument finds the concept not only ridiculous but extremely demeaning to the greatness, intelligence and wisdom of our ancient heritage.

Can we please stop the stupid "http://ancientaliensdebunked.co" type material?
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Old 13th November 2012, 04:40 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
What exactly is the ''mystery''?

The original stone megalith structures age and what culture made them, the foundations of which the Romans later built the Temple of Jupiter on is what is now being discussed, since adequate models for the moving of the stones has finally been presented and largely agreed upon.
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Old 13th November 2012, 04:42 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
If you'd taken the trouble to actually read it you'd have found a lot of interesting information.
For example:


and

Did that stop for a reason or are you finding it hard to type?
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Old 13th November 2012, 04:43 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Who exactly built them is still largely a mystery though.
I'm fairly sure that the Romans built the Roman buildings.
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Old 13th November 2012, 04:45 PM   #214
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Every bit of text I copied and pasted into my research came from people that have actually been there and seen it with their own eyes. That way you avoid the inherent print bias that is endemic in a lot of history books or educational systems.

That is a standard that ANY historian would regard with the highest respect. I am sorry if that annoys people here.

You can even check the text against the authors and the time they visited the structure if you feel the need.
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Old 13th November 2012, 04:46 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
By the way, I forgot to ask: how do they know the stone is pregnant?
They found a stone dead rabbit.
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Old 13th November 2012, 04:47 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
More jref members here have brought up ancient alien based pages than I would have hoped from such a great and empirically grounded community.

It's almost as if you are resorting to extravagant claims to belittle an argument when the person making the argument finds the concept not only ridiculous but extremely demeaning to the greatness, intelligence and wisdom of our ancient heritage.

Can we please stop the stupid "http://ancientaliensdebunked.co" type material?

Let's see, the ancient alien believers can't imagine how some common mundane stonework was done. You can't imagine how it was done. Ancient alien believers hand-wave perfectly plausible explanations. You hand-wave plausible explanations. The ancient alien contingent ignores it when they can't refute a simple explanation then ask for a more complex explanation simple enough that they can understand it. You've ignored thorough explanations and continue to request fully detailed explanations that you can understand and accept. I don't see a significant difference.
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Old 13th November 2012, 04:47 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
I'm fairly sure that the Romans built the Roman buildings.

Have you read the transcripts of all the people that have actually been there to investigate in person and what scientific and deductive conclusions they drew?
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Old 13th November 2012, 04:49 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
The original stone megalith structures age and what culture made them, the foundations of which the Romans later built the Temple of Jupiter on is what is now being discussed, since adequate models for the moving of the stones has finally been presented and largely agreed upon.
I'm just happy with knowing that somebody made them, with the technology of the times, no anti-gravity machines or laser cutters.
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Old 13th November 2012, 04:50 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Did that stop for a reason or are you finding it hard to type?

I hit the enter by mistake- sorry!
The quoted texts are now in place.
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Old 13th November 2012, 04:51 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by GeeMack View Post
Let's see, the ancient alien believers can't imagine how some common mundane stonework was done. You can't imagine how it was done. Ancient alien believers hand-wave perfectly plausible explanations. You hand-wave plausible explanations. The ancient alien contingent ignores it when they can't refute a simple explanation then ask for a more complex explanation simple enough that they can understand it. You've ignored thorough explanations and continue to request fully detailed explanations that you can understand and accept. I don't see a significant difference.

I love you Geemack <3

As soon as the science was supplied in more detail not only did I in fact say that's ok, and seems plausible, I went on to the next challenge (of raising the block 20ft) and solved it myself. It just took a while for the scientifically minded of us to come out and do some rigorous analyzing amongst the noise.

Meanwhile you have just sat on your chair and mocked me. Well, please feel free to continue. But I'm trying to have a productive dialogue to work the empirical facts out. And so far, we have worked out quite a lot of potential solutions. You can continue to do what you want.
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Old 13th November 2012, 05:17 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
I'm just happy with knowing that somebody made them, with the technology of the times, no anti-gravity machines or laser cutters.

Why are you even bringing up these terms?

Anti gravity is statistically impossible, it has been in the anti-science woo dustbin for decades.

No one in this thread ever mentioned laser cutters either.
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Old 13th November 2012, 11:22 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Every bit of text I copied and pasted into my research came from people that have actually been there and seen it with their own eyes. That way you avoid the inherent print bias that is endemic in a lot of history books or educational systems.

That is a standard that ANY historian would regard with the highest respect. I am sorry if that annoys people here.

You can even check the text against the authors and the time they visited the structure if you feel the need.
And how many archeaological groups did you contact? You see I keep trying to establish what research you did into the known methods of moving a megolith, and you keep talking about that location.

Assume for a second that not every archaeologist in the niche field of researching the methods of building with and transporting stone had ever visited that particular site. Imaginefor one second that perhaps they had researched other sites!

It seems you have done things skew whiff. You have chosen a site and have refused to look any further, offering no reason for the site to be unique. Perhaps you should have researched methods of moving large stones first, and then looked at which of the known methods, or combinations of methods, can be applied to the location.
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Old 14th November 2012, 12:57 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
More jref members here have brought up ancient alien based pages than I would have hoped from such a great and empirically grounded community.
What's being brought up are sites which debunk "ancient alien" type explanations for constructions which could have been built using the known techniques of the time. That's just because those are where you tend to find the clearest explanations of what those known techniques of the time were and how they could have been used to create specific constructions, which is the information you have been specifically requesting (and then hand waving away, for reasons known only to yourself).

You don't need to be a creationist to find talkorigins to be a good source of information about how evolution works, and you don't need to believe in ancient aliens to find ancient aliens debunking sites a good source of information about how our ancestors built large stone constructions.
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Old 14th November 2012, 02:13 AM   #224
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^
I never imagined Zeuzzz wouldn't be interested in the transcript I posted up.
I found the fact that the Roman construction of a similar maintaining wall using stones similar to those of the the Baalbeck maintaing wall and so well documented to boot, was extremely convincing evidence woosters have been muddying the waters on the subject of the 'mystery' of the Baalbeck stones.

Here's more about Herod the Great's construction:
http://www.generationword.com/jerusa...ar-stones.html
Scroll down to see some impressive photos there.

http://www.bibleplaces.com/westernwall.htm
ditto with the photos

http://www.welcometohosanna.com/JERU...R/herodian.htm
Quote:
Right, intact Herodian stones of the west retaining wall of the Temple Mount. Upper right is the huge "master course" (camera lens not wide enough to show the entire stone). Note its size compared with the smaller stones below. (Photo taken in the Western Wall [or Rabbic] Tunnel).

What is truly amazing is that today's best cranes can only lift 250 tons. This means, of course, that we will have to totally re-think our understanding of ancient technology. How were such huge stones lifted into position? According to one theory, the quarry was to the north of the Temple Mount at a higher elevation. If so, the builders could have pushed the stone into place using lever and pulley systems available at that time.
And apparently they've found the quarry where the Master Course stones were from:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/123754
Quote:
The rulers of ancient Jerusalem used top-quality, shining-white stone for their public buildings, of the type they called Malcha (from the word for royalty). Dozens of quarries have been discovered in and around Jerusalem over the years, Baruch said, "including some from the period of Herod, like this one. However, never before has one been found with such large rocks."

The Shuafat mountain is some 80 meters higher than the Temple Mount. That, and its proximity to the main road to Jerusalem from the north, made this quarry a prime candidate to provide the rocks to be used in the city's important buildings. Teams of oxen pulled the giant stones down the moderate incline towards the city. The rocks were then placed upon the bedrock, forming the foundation of the Temple Mount, and keeping it stable and firm without the use of concrete even up until today.

Coins and pottery were also found in the quarry, dating back 1,900 years - further evidence that this quarry was used during the height of construction in ancient Jerusalem.

http://cojs.org/cojswiki/Herod%27s_Quarry,_c._19_BCE
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31761755...herods-quarry/

I have the impression Herod the Great's construction shows that the real 'mystery' here is how barkingarcheologists have managed to convince people there's a mystery about the origins of the Baalbeck stones.
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Old 14th November 2012, 02:22 AM   #225
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More on Herod's construction:
It's so well documented we even have the speech Herod gave to commemorate about it, thanks to Josephus.
You can read it here:
http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/ntintro/jerusaltempl4.htm

Also
Quote:
The outer courts were surrounded by a high and thick wall. Josephus says that this wall was the "greatest ever heard of," which, although exaggerated, is not far from the truth (Ant. 15.11.3; 396). Parts of this wall still survive today and have recently been excavated down to their original ground level. The stones used are described by Josephus as "hard and white" (lithoi leukoi te kai krataioi) (Ant. 15.11.3; 392). Not surprisingly the limestone ashlars (blocks) used were large, especially those used in the lower courses and the corners. Josephus says that some of the stones were 40 cubits long (c. 20 m.) and six cubits (c. 3 m.) high (War 5.5.1; 189; Ant. 20.9.7; 221); the largest stone found to date is 12 m. x 3 m. x 4 m., weighing perhaps 400 tons or even more (M. ben-Dov, In the Shadow of the Temple, 88). Most of the other stones used were much smaller, between two and five tons each. The outer wall consisted of three rows of blocks and was about five meters thick (M. ben-Dov, In the Shadow of the Temple, 90-91); the huge blocks of stone were put into place by means of ramps and pulleys (M. ben-Dov, In the Shadow of the Temple, 84). The blocks were fitted together using the "dry construction" method, which means that no mortar was used in the construction; mortar would have required the use of lime, which was difficult and expensive to produce. Each block had a "marginal dressing," meaning that each had a frame or margin chiseled around its edge (M. ben Dov, In the Shadow of the Temple, 96). According to Josephus, the outer walls were so massive that Roman battering rams were unable to cause a breach in the outer western wall (War: 6.4.1; 220-22).
Obviously there's no mystery here.
I wonder why one was invented around the Baalbeck maintaining wall.
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Old 15th November 2012, 06:02 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Because there was no hill. This has been pointed out previously.
Where was this pointed out? I see a post pointing out that the quarry was at a higher elevation than the temple.

Looks like a hill to me.
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Old 15th November 2012, 06:09 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Why are you even bringing up these terms?

Anti gravity is statistically impossible, it has been in the anti-science woo dustbin for decades.

No one in this thread ever mentioned laser cutters either.
What is your point then?
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Old 15th November 2012, 06:20 AM   #228
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This thread is hilarious. My points are in my posts.

Kind of the way forums work, ya know.
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Old 15th November 2012, 06:20 AM   #229
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I'll try to summarise the thread from my perspective:

Zeuzzz: look at this cool thing that ancient people did. Gosh they sure were clever and resourceful. We don't know how they managed to do this

Other Posters: here's a bunch of ways that they could have done it

Zeuzzz: they didn't do it that way, they did is some other way and you can't prove that they did it that way


I'm not sure that Zeuzzz is suggesting that the ancients had the help of aliens. From what I can determine from this and other threads in which Zeuzzz has participated, the premises are:
  • (some) Archeologists are closed minded - these structures may be much older than current archeological orthodoxy suggests
  • Current suggestions about how these structures could have been constructed are wrong and/or incomplete
  • The ancient civilisations used technology and techniques which have been lost (but aren't alien related or don't require access to modern technology)
  • If we found those lost techniques we'd be amazed

IMO it is possible that there are lost techniques which would take our collective breath away but I think it more likely that the techniques outlined in this thread (or variations thereof) were used and that a lot of hard graft went into building these structures.
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Old 15th November 2012, 06:22 AM   #230
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Whether you choose to read them and think about them or just react to them is your choice.
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Old 15th November 2012, 06:35 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
I wonder why one was invented around the Baalbeck maintaining wall.
Retaining wall, not maintaining. I noticed this has been used more than once in error.

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Old 15th November 2012, 06:36 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
This thread is hilarious. My points are in my posts.

Kind of the way forums work, ya know.
The point is that you have ignored all the possible methods, and that is amusing, I agree.
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Old 15th November 2012, 06:38 AM   #233
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I responded to the viable solutions and evaluated their plausibility, and also added my own solution to another problem.

Sorry if that annoys you.
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Old 15th November 2012, 06:41 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
I responded to the viable solutions and evaluated their plausibility, and also added my own solution to another problem.

Sorry if that annoys you.
I'm not annoyed. Was the solution the one in which you got the maths wrong?
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Old 15th November 2012, 06:42 AM   #235
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'Amazing. And the reactionary hyperbole continues.
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Old 15th November 2012, 06:50 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
'Amazing. And the reactionary hyperbole continues.
And the pointless thread continues.
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Old 15th November 2012, 09:05 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
'Amazing. And the reactionary hyperbole continues.
Pointing out to you that you made mistakes in your math is considered to be 'reactionary hyperbole'?

With threads like these, who needs the comedy subforum?
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Old 15th November 2012, 09:19 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Pointing out to you that you made mistakes in your math is considered to be 'reactionary hyperbole'?

With threads like these, who needs the comedy subforum?

I was the one that immediately pointed out I had muddled joules with newtons in the end calculation myself, no one else showed any error with anything I did. I in fact pointed out a mistake in Dancing David maths which he did not argue with after openly saying himself that he may have 'goofed up somewhere'.

He who laughs last laughs longest. And I haven't begun laughing yet.
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Old 15th November 2012, 09:27 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
More on Herod's construction:
It's so well documented we even have the speech Herod gave to commemorate about it, thanks to Josephus.
You can read it here:
http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/ntintro/jerusaltempl4.htm

Thanks for the link. Lets examine what he said about Roman constructions vs the triliton this thread is about.

The outer courts[1] were surrounded by a high and thick wall. Josephus says that this wall was the "greatest ever heard of," which, although exaggerated, is not far from the truth (Ant. 15.11.3; 396). Parts of this wall still survive today and have recently been excavated down to their original ground level. The stones used are described by Josephus as "hard and white [2]" (lithoi leukoi te kai krataioi) (Ant. 15.11.3; 392). Not surprisingly the limestone ashlars (blocks) used were large, especially those used in the lower courses and the corners [3]. Josephus says that some of the stones were 40 cubits long (c. 20 m.) and six cubits (c. 3 m.) high (War 5.5.1; 189; Ant. 20.9.7; 221); the largest stone found to date is 12 m. x 3 m. x 4 m., weighing perhaps 400 tons [4] or even more (M. ben-Dov, In the Shadow of the Temple, 88). Most of the other stones used were much smaller, between two and five tons each. The outer wall consisted of three rows of blocks and was about five meters thick (M. ben-Dov, In the Shadow of the Temple, 90-91); the huge blocks of stone were put into place by means of ramps and pulleys (M. ben-Dov, In the Shadow of the Temple, 84). The blocks were fitted together using the "dry construction" method, which means that no mortar was used in the construction; mortar would have required the use of lime, which was difficult and expensive to produce. Each block had a "marginal dressing," meaning that each had a frame or margin chiseled around its edge (M. ben Dov, In the Shadow of the Temple, 96). According to Josephus, the outer walls were so massive that Roman battering rams were unable to cause a breach in the outer western wall (War: 6.4.1; 220-22).

[1] Which Roman courts in particular?
[2] The triliton stones are not white.
[3] The stones in the structure are neither on the corners nor low in the foundations but mid way up it.
[4] The length of the stones are bigger than this, and double that weight.

I am finding it hard to tie this quote down to the large megaliths underneath the temple of Jupiter. It seems far too general. No one is disputing the Romans made large rock structures and constructions; it's evidence for them saying they made the foundations for the temple of Jupiter and how that is lacking. You can clearly tell the difference in architecture and design between the temple of Jupiter built on top of the triliton, the clearest difference as your quote said the Roman stones and buildings are far more white, and of a totally different architecture.

That website is about Roman architecture and the Temple of Jupiter. Not the trilithon, which I found information about very lacking.

Last edited by Zeuzzz; 15th November 2012 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 15th November 2012, 09:36 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
I responded to the viable solutions and evaluated their plausibility, and also added my own solution to another problem.

Sorry if that annoys you.
So wooden rollers and a sledge/planks have worked or not Zeuzzz?

Enquiring minds want to know!
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