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Old 15th November 2012, 08:38 AM   #241
dafydd
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
I

He who laughs last laughs longest. And I haven't begun laughing yet.
Will you start laughing when you tell us how Baalbek was built?

''A German expedition dug 1904/1905 through to the foundations of the temple. The temple platform is through and through of Roman origin. They found typical roman masonery, roman trash and so on, down to the bedrock. Nothing un-Roman was found! Btw: The temple platform was not built from massive stone, but typically roman honeycombed. Only the outer shell looks like a massive building.''

http://www.ramtops.co.uk/baalbek.html
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Old 15th November 2012, 08:39 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
I was the one that immediately pointed out I had muddled joules with newtons in the end calculation myself, no one else showed any error with anything I did. I in fact pointed out a mistake in Dancing David maths which he did not argue with after openly saying himself that he may have 'goofed up somewhere'.

He who laughs last laughs longest. And I haven't begun laughing yet.
And you never showed taht wooden rollers wouldn't have worked, despite false claims that they would be crushed.
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Old 15th November 2012, 08:43 AM   #243
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Well we worked out that the elastic limit of red cedar would be ok if care was taken and the maximum numbers of rollers was used. The specifics of getting the stone onto the rollers so the pressure is uniformely applied across all logs simultaneously is another matter, but not one that cant be overcome with enough leverage and soil.

However this rolling theory requires a smooth road between the quarry and the temple, which there is no evidence of. I'm currently installing the contour map extension for Google Earth to attempt to verify the levelness of the ground between the quarry and the trilithon to see how likely a road that has simply disappeared over time is.
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Old 15th November 2012, 08:46 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Will you start laughing when you tell us how Baalbek was built?

''A German expedition dug 1904/1905 through to the foundations of the temple. The temple platform is through and through of Roman origin. They found typical roman masonery, roman trash and so on, down to the bedrock. Nothing un-Roman was found! Btw: The temple platform was not built from massive stone, but typically roman honeycombed. Only the outer shell looks like a massive building.''

http://www.ramtops.co.uk/baalbek.html

I replied directly to that here.

Sometimes reading and seeing a post is different than paying attention and thinking about it.
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Old 15th November 2012, 08:46 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Well we worked out that the elastic limit of red cedar would be ok if care was taken and the maximum numbers of rollers was used. The specifics of getting the stone onto the rollers so the pressure is uniformely applied across all logs simultaneously is another matter, but not one that cant be overcome with enough leverage and soil.

However this rolling theory requires a smooth road between the quarry and the temple, which there is no evidence of. I'm currently installing the contour map extension for Google Earth to attempt to verify the levelness of the ground between the quarry and the trilithon to see how likely a road that has simply disappeared over time is.
What is the alternative to the rolling theory?
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Old 15th November 2012, 08:48 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
I replied directly to that here.

Sometimes reading and seeing a post is different than paying attention and thinking about it.
Good advice, try following it.
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Old 15th November 2012, 08:55 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
What is the alternative to the rolling theory?
The main contenders are the "sliding theory" and the "who the heck can know anything about the past, it was so long ago and evidence was lost and everything is just conjecture" theory.
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Old 15th November 2012, 09:14 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
That is the roman temple that was built on it's foundations. Unsurprising everything they found was roman. Are there pictures or more details of this expedition?
What is that "its" referring to? The temple of Jupiter? That wouldn't make much sense to me as in my current understanding there is no temple structure at this site before the Roman temple to Jupiter.


Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
I have. The case of the main structure below the temple of Jupiter is not as straightforward as it first appears.
Which main structure exactly are you talking about? If I read the information on the site of the German Archeological Institute correctly the earliest monumental structure is the first strata of the Jupiter temple that dates to the last two decades before CE.
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Old 15th November 2012, 09:35 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
The main contenders are the "sliding theory" and the "who the heck can know anything about the past, it was so long ago and evidence was lost and everything is just conjecture" theory.
They either slid or rolled the stones.
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Old 15th November 2012, 09:52 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Moss View Post
Which main structure exactly are you talking about? If I read the information on the site of the German Archeological Institute correctly the earliest monumental structure is the first strata of the Jupiter temple that dates to the last two decades before CE.

Don't read institutes. Take their views into consideration certainly. Read the accounts of people that have actually been there. Which is what I did and ended up with a very different picture than establishment views. All the text in the OP (or the link) is from people that have actually visited in person and studied it first hand. Avoid print bias at all costs and you can't go far wrong.

Last edited by Zeuzzz; 15th November 2012 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 15th November 2012, 09:57 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Don't read institutes. Take their views into consideration certainly. Read the accounts of people that have actually been there. Which is what I did and ended up with a very different picture than establishment views. All the text in the OP (or the link) is from people that have actually visited in person and studied it first hand. Avoid print bias at all costs and you can't go far wrong.
What is this different picture? Do you have an alternative to the rolling and sliding theories?
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Old 15th November 2012, 10:06 AM   #252
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Crikey I need a translator for you Dafydd.

We are talking about the non roman origins of the foundation that the Romans later built the temple of Jupiter on. The part of the building with the huge 800-1000 tonne blocks in it.

No I don't have another theory for moving the blocks past what has been suggested.

Do you?
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Old 15th November 2012, 10:12 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Crikey I need a translator for you Dafydd.

We are talking about the non roman origins of the foundation that the Romans later built the temple of Jupiter on. The part of the building with the huge 800-1000 tonne blocks in it.
Then why are you making contour maps? is the name of the people who made the foundation etched into the hill?
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Old 15th November 2012, 10:15 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Don't read institutes. Take their views into consideration certainly. Read the accounts of people that have actually been there. Which is what I did and ended up with a very different picture than establishment views. All the text in the OP (or the link) is from people that have actually visited in person and studied it first hand. Avoid print bias at all costs and you can't go far wrong.
You do realize that that institute has been involved with the excavations in the last years? And that you failed to answer my questions?

ETA: To be specific Margarete van Ess who is one of the leading figures of the DAI has led ecavations in Baalbek. She has been there. Should I not trust here because she is a member of the governing body of the institute?

Last edited by Moss; 15th November 2012 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 15th November 2012, 10:19 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Then why are you making contour maps? is the name of the people who made the foundation etched into the hill?

Three lines of argument at once. If you hadn't noticed, there are three separate lines of argument going on here and I'm in all three a) The science of moving the megaliths b) The history and properties of the blocks and c) The fact they are likely not of roman origin.
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Old 15th November 2012, 10:23 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Don't read institutes. Take their views into consideration certainly. Read the accounts of people that have actually been there.

Have you ever been there?

Quote:
Which is what I did and ended up with a very different picture than establishment views. All the text in the OP (or the link) is from people that have actually visited in person and studied it first hand.

All the text in the OP was from you. Have you ever actually visited in person and studied it first hand?

Quote:
Avoid print bias at all costs and you can't go far wrong.

So, have you ever been there?

Last edited by GeeMack; 15th November 2012 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 15th November 2012, 10:26 AM   #257
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I'm here right now, what do you want to know?
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Old 15th November 2012, 10:27 AM   #258
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How many stones?

And I'm not claiming to be an authority on it only sharing other peoples accounts that have been there
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Old 15th November 2012, 10:31 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
How many stones?

And I'm not claiming to be an authority on it only sharing other peoples accounts that have been there

But have you ever been there? It has been suggested that people who haven't actually been there in person and studied it first hand should be suspected of engaging in print bias. So that brings us to the question, have you been there in person and studied it first hand?
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Old 15th November 2012, 10:31 AM   #260
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Did anyone reference the Chris White Ancient Aliens debunking video yet?
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Old 15th November 2012, 10:34 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by GeeMack View Post
But have you ever been there? It has been suggested that people who haven't actually been there in person and studied it first hand should be suspected of engaging in print bias. So that brings us to the question, have you been there in person and studied it first hand?

No I am engaging in print bias myself here, but this is a forum not a historical record, I however am not contributing to print bias even if I am engaging in it, as I have selected only grassroot people that have not learn it only from books via print bias as my primary references.
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Old 15th November 2012, 10:35 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
How many stones?
Only three left out of the original band.
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Old 15th November 2012, 10:36 AM   #263
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I wonder how theses grassroots people can see who moved the stones merely by looking at them in situ.
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Old 15th November 2012, 10:38 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Well we worked out that the elastic limit of red cedar would be ok if care was taken and the maximum numbers of rollers was used. The specifics of getting the stone onto the rollers so the pressure is uniformely applied across all logs simultaneously is another matter, but not one that cant be overcome with enough leverage and soil.

However this rolling theory requires a smooth road between the quarry and the temple, which there is no evidence of. I'm currently installing the contour map extension for Google Earth to attempt to verify the levelness of the ground between the quarry and the trilithon to see how likely a road that has simply disappeared over time is.
The ground level now, or evidence of "roads" seems immaterial. Temporary structures that were erected explicitly to aid construction like roads, scaffolds, levers, cranes, tracks, dirt embankments, earthen ramps or whatever else would have been deliberately removed afterwards; who knows what archaeological evidence would be left over. You're acting like every construction aid must still be in evidence, but unless the job was abandoned in progress and society collapsed around them before they got the chance, all that stuff would have been deliberately removed.

You don't boggle that there's no way a skyscraper could have been built because you don't see any remains of a scaffolding.
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Old 15th November 2012, 10:54 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
No I am engaging in print bias myself here, but this is a forum not a historical record, I however am not contributing to print bias even if I am engaging in it, as I have selected only grassroot people that have not learn it only from books via print bias as my primary references.

So those people whose writing you're reading, who were actually there, when they were watching the ancients quarry and move those giant stones, why didn't they take better notes? Or will you now claim they weren't actually there in person to study it first hand?

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Old 15th November 2012, 11:04 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
How many stones?

And I'm not claiming to be an authority on it only sharing other peoples accounts that have been there
And once again: Why only people who have been there? Why not the research of people who specialise in how ancient cultures moved stones?

There is absolutely no reason for your strange belief that people who have not set foot on that particular are denied some great insight. People can go there and be totally unaware of how ancient civilisations moved megaliths.
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Old 15th November 2012, 11:11 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Don't read institutes. Take their views into consideration certainly. Read the accounts of people that have actually been there. Which is what I did and ended up with a very different picture than establishment views. All the text in the OP (or the link) is from people that have actually visited in person and studied it first hand. Avoid print bias at all costs and you can't go far wrong.
Riiiiiiight. So being there first hand is actually a measure of training and knowledge because...?


Zeuzzz, have you, per chance, ever read an archeaological survey? Have you looked at the diagrams taken of a dig? I will assume you have. Do you think, that an archeaologist with knowledge in a particular field can look at such diagrams and deduce if the information contained is relevant to their specialty? Do you think that an archeaologist not skilled in a speciality can substitute their lack of specific knowledge by some other means? Exactly what information do you think being at a location grants that can not be obtained elsewhere?


And have you ever listed which groups or individuals you contacted in researching your web page? I can't see it here.
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Old 15th November 2012, 11:47 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Don't read institutes. Take their views into consideration certainly. Read the accounts of people that have actually been there. Which is what I did and ended up with a very different picture than establishment views. All the text in the OP (or the link) is from people that have actually visited in person and studied it first hand. Avoid print bias at all costs and you can't go far wrong.
Erm, the people that excavated the site and found Roman all the way to the bottom visited the site in person.

I could visit the site but that wouldn't make me qualified to say who built it.
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Old 15th November 2012, 12:36 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Well we worked out that the elastic limit of red cedar would be ok if care was taken and the maximum numbers of rollers was used. The specifics of getting the stone onto the rollers so the pressure is uniformely applied across all logs simultaneously is another matter, but not one that cant be overcome with enough leverage and soil.

However this rolling theory requires a smooth road between the quarry and the temple, which there is no evidence of. I'm currently installing the contour map extension for Google Earth to attempt to verify the levelness of the ground between the quarry and the trilithon to see how likely a road that has simply disappeared over time is.
Why would you see a road after 500 years much less 2000 or more, a smoothed earth road is all that is needed. You are not going to find that after even a hundred years, much less however many it was. Now henges and mounds, do take longer to fill in or erode, but a road can disappear very quicly.

You don't have to get the stone onto the rollers at once, if you loose a few rollers it is no big deal, you can even use blacks BLOCKS to tranfer teh stone and place teh rollers underneath if you wish. the contact area of a roller is going to be upward of 15% so well withing the tolerance of the wood.

ETA: typoe!
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Old 15th November 2012, 12:37 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
I replied directly to that here.

Sometimes reading and seeing a post is different than paying attention and thinking about it.
Your reply provides no substance as to why the room under the ruins was not roman. Or at least contained roman artifacts.
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Old 15th November 2012, 12:39 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
you can even use blacks to tranfer teh stone and place teh rollers underneath if you wish.
Dude.
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Old 15th November 2012, 12:39 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Don't read institutes. Take their views into consideration certainly. Read the accounts of people that have actually been there. Which is what I did and ended up with a very different picture than establishment views. All the text in the OP (or the link) is from people that have actually visited in person and studied it first hand. Avoid print bias at all costs and you can't go far wrong.
Cite teha ctual finds and data, not just the impression, are the stone mark current with roman tools or not?

It is the data that matters. So present the actual data if you will, what data actually says that they are not roman, in specific.
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Old 15th November 2012, 12:41 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by robotimbo View Post
dude.
roflmao!
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Old 15th November 2012, 12:42 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Crikey I need a translator for you Dafydd.

We are talking about the non roman origins of the foundation that the Romans later built the temple of Jupiter on. The part of the building with the huge 800-1000 tonne blocks in it.

No I don't have another theory for moving the blocks past what has been suggested.

Do you?
And the data for something other than the romans is....

What materials, what objects, what records?
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Old 15th November 2012, 01:44 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Well we worked out that the elastic limit of red cedar would be ok if care was taken and the maximum numbers of rollers was used. The specifics of getting the stone onto the rollers so the pressure is uniformely applied across all logs simultaneously is another matter, but not one that cant be overcome with enough leverage and soil.

However this rolling theory requires a smooth road between the quarry and the temple, which there is no evidence of. I'm currently installing the contour map extension for Google Earth to attempt to verify the levelness of the ground between the quarry and the trilithon to see how likely a road that has simply disappeared over time is.
Is there some reason why the rollers have to be softwood? If it was me I would be looking for hardwood logs to do the job.

There has been plenty of time for a temporary road to disappear.
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Old 15th November 2012, 02:05 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Is there some reason why the rollers have to be softwood? If it was me I would be looking for hardwood logs to do the job.

There has been plenty of time for a temporary road to disappear.
They only had cedar trees in the Lebanon.
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Old 15th November 2012, 03:10 PM   #277
pakeha
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Originally Posted by Edx View Post
Did anyone reference the Chris White Ancient Aliens debunking video yet?
Yes.
Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Retaining wall, not maintaining. I noticed this has been used more than once in error.

Mike
Thanks for the heads-up!

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
...I am finding it hard to tie this quote down to the large megaliths underneath the temple of Jupiter. It seems far too general. No one is disputing the Romans made large rock structures and constructions; it's evidence for them saying they made the foundations for the temple of Jupiter and how that is lacking. You can clearly tell the difference in architecture and design between the temple of Jupiter built on top of the triliton, the clearest difference as your quote said the Roman stones and buildings are far more white, and of a totally different architecture.

That website is about Roman architecture and the Temple of Jupiter. Not the trilithon, which I found information about very lacking.
The point is that both constructions are part of retaining walls.
That's discussed here:
http://ancientaliensdebunked.com/ref...ripts/baalbek/
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Old 15th November 2012, 09:34 PM   #278
fuelair
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
So you made up a solution and wont share it? Well, isn't this turning into a fruitful dialogue.
Sorry, not everyone is anxious to answer things when the essential statement is it can be done/has been done - but it's impossible for x to have done it. Some of us can figure out how X could have done it but are not that concerned - we know X did so we are not worried about how. Some of us take it as a problem and figure out one or more ways it could have been done. Some will tell you, some won't (gloaters) BUT it won't be sufficient if you want to know expressly how it was done. Some of us with more historical/engineering know exactly or approximately how it was done. Some may eventually tell you, some will make you look it up yourself (and might or might not tell you where and so on. If you are interested enough that latter is what you should be doing. The internet (though I am not fond of Gooble) is your friend if you use it well and learn how it works. However, complaining when we do not just tell you is pointless. That is not our job......
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Old 16th November 2012, 01:14 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Why would you see a road after 500 years much less 2000 or more, a smoothed earth road is all that is needed. You are not going to find that after even a hundred years, much less however many it was. Now henges and mounds, do take longer to fill in or erode, but a road can disappear very quicly.
Especially since, crossing smack bang in the middle of the 600m or so distance between the quarry and the site, is a tarmacced road, which would have, just by itself, erased a fair chunk of anything that may have been left.

Indeed it's quite likely that road follows most of whatever route a temporary road would have taken. Just look on Google Maps and it's pretty clear.
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Old 16th November 2012, 01:24 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Moss View Post
You do realize that that institute has been involved with the excavations in the last years? And that you failed to answer my questions?

ETA: To be specific Margarete van Ess who is one of the leading figures of the DAI has led ecavations in Baalbek. She has been there. Should I not trust here because she is a member of the governing body of the institute?
Thanks for the lead, Moss.

Zeuzzz, have you been in touch with these people?
http://www.dainst.org/en/project/baalbek-museum?ft=8
Quote:
The museum is located in the substructions of the sanctuary of Jupiter as well as in the south tower of the fortress.
The permanent exhibition informs about the long history of the town and the re-discovery and excavation of the Roman sanctuary.

These may interest you as well:
http://cipa.icomos.org/fileadmin/tem.../TURIN/849.pdf

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/search...pe=text%2fhtml
Quote:
The famous trilithon with blocks so large that a mere three courses would have been sufficient to reach the required height of 12 m was correctly attributed to the Julio-Claudian phase by von Gerkan (1937, 56). Although it consists of a separate ring at some distance from the core podium, it should belong to this redesign, as it maintains a constant distance to the awkwardly placed colonnades at the edge of the core podium. The trilithon is generally considered unfinished (Wiegand 1921, 53). However, traces on the northern façade show that the podium was built up all the way to the floor level of the temple, though it was not entirely completed, as shown by the uneven and unfinished floor surface.

http://www.daniellohmann.net/dox/lohmann_ch2009.pdf


http://www.daniellohmann.net/dox/lohmann_aiac2008.pdf
Quote:
Apparently challenged by the already huge pre-Roman construction, the early imperial Jupiter sanctuary shows both an architectural megalomaniac design and construction technique in the first half of the first century AD. The most famous example may be the trilithon forming the middle layer of the western temple podium by three blocks of 4 by 4 by 20 meters size.
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