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Old 20th November 2012, 06:12 PM   #321
Zeuzzz
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Originally Posted by GeeMack View Post
Are you familiar with the work advantage we can get from using simple machines? It's physics. I think I mentioned how I learned about them sometime around 5th grade, but then the science classes I was in might have been slightly advanced.


Education has little to do with feeding people answers and much to do with helping them learn how to think.
Thanks for your time and highly useful input geemack

Maybe someone else here is a mind reader.
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Old 20th November 2012, 06:20 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Thanks for your time and highly useful input geemack

Any good reason I should continue trying to help you understand, when instead of working a tiny little bit with what I'm offering you, you flip me off?

Quote:
Maybe someone else here is a mind reader.

It looks like at least a few understand the concept I'm working with. I'd venture a guess that at least a few learned about simple machines when they were in grade school, or at least high school. Thinking through a simple physics puzzle doesn't require any mind reading.
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Old 20th November 2012, 06:36 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
One should perhaps avoid using the word "horsepucky" in a post accusing somebody of a childish tactic....
Well, it's my habit to use more offensive language there, but you know the forum rules and censorship software, so I went with a charming alternative.

Would you have preferred "bullhonkies"?
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Old 20th November 2012, 06:41 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by GeeMack View Post
There's a word that describes an untrue comment like the one you made there.
I suppose you mean that you never claimed to know how it was done, but only how it might have been done.

Yeah, I misspoke there. Sorry for that. I don't think it was a terrible error, but it was a misrepresentation.

Quote:
Honestly? It seems your notion of what constitutes honesty is somewhat different than that of the other participants here. Here's some helpful advice: Go re-read the thread, most particularly all my comments, before posting again here. Your persistent misrepresentation of what I've written is not an honest way to engage in a dialog, and frankly it looks pretty foolish.
I'm not too concerned about your opinion of me, and it seems that the apathy is mutual. Not much reason to persist, but my opinion of the immaturity of your participation thus far (or at least as far as the post I was replying to) hasn't changed.

Conversation, even with gullible fringe folk, is not a contest to be won by cleverness. If you actually had a particular method in mind, there's no reason not to have spelled it out by at least the third request to do so.
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Old 20th November 2012, 07:00 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Conversation, even with gullible fringe folk, is not a contest to be won by cleverness. If you actually had a particular method in mind, there's no reason not to have spelled it out by at least the third request to do so.

Do notice that I've tried at least a few times to find out if Zeuzzz has the physics background necessary to actually understand any explanation I might offer. Also notice that my efforts at that have been met with flippancy and willful ignorance. If he doesn't understand simple machines, he quite possibly won't understand my explanation. If he does understand simple machines, my explanation would likely be unnecessary. But since we don't know one way or another, it puts us in a bit of a quandary until Zeuzzz chooses to participate in a productive, cooperative manner, now doesn't it?
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Old 20th November 2012, 07:02 PM   #326
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Can you please help me Geemack?

I studied physics at university for three years. This is no secret here.
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Old 20th November 2012, 07:20 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Can you please help me Geemack?

I studied physics at university for three years. This is no secret here.

Yeah, sure, whatever you say. But this lifting huge stones thing is grade school physics. The relevant question was, are you familiar with the work advantage we can get from using simple machines?
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Old 20th November 2012, 08:20 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by GeeMack View Post
Yeah, sure, whatever you say. But this lifting huge stones thing is grade school physics. The relevant question was, are you familiar with the work advantage we can get from using simple machines?

In terms of leverage and transporation, yes. I canh onyl guess at what you have in mind at this point though.

But as we pointed out before the stress on wood machines with such weight would severely constrain their effectiveness, unless you have evidence to the contrary.
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Old 20th November 2012, 11:12 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Nope, you seem so sure of your views you should be backing up your thought processes with the hard evidence you based it on in the first place.

You can't shift the burden of proof to the person asking questions.
You mean, like the hard evidence you posted up 5 years ago to show the stones are part of a pre-Roman construction?
Or do you have anything more than 100year+ old quotations mined from other writers?
If so, post it up, please.

Originally Posted by Harte View Post
Thanks, Harte. Ñom, ñom.
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Old 21st November 2012, 04:16 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
That's a pretty crappy way to respond. He's said he couldn't figure it out. Intellectual honesty suggests that you should either explain your answer or stop claiming that you know how it was done.
If you had participated in the Zeuzzz song and dance reviews , you would understand. GeeMack is a bit abrasive, but then....
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Old 21st November 2012, 04:20 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
In terms of leverage and transporation, yes. I canh onyl guess at what you have in mind at this point though.

But as we pointed out before the stress on wood machines with such weight would severely constrain their effectiveness, unless you have evidence to the contrary.
Ah yes, now the pretend agreement goes to the actual denial phase, so Zeuzzz, what about those wooden rollers, where is that data that an 800 ton rock would crush the rollers?

Is a earth ramp a simple machine, what about a pulley, what about a lever/winch?
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Old 21st November 2012, 05:22 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
In terms of leverage and transporation, yes. I canh onyl guess at what you have in mind at this point though.

But as we pointed out before the stress on wood machines with such weight would severely constrain their effectiveness, unless you have evidence to the contrary.
We?
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Old 21st November 2012, 05:35 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
We?
Clearly royalty.
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Old 21st November 2012, 05:36 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Clearly royalty.
Are any of the royals good at maths?
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Old 21st November 2012, 05:38 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Are any of the royals good at maths?
I doubt it.
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Old 21st November 2012, 06:04 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Ah yes, now the pretend agreement goes to the actual denial phase, so Zeuzzz, what about those wooden rollers, where is that data that an 800 ton rock would crush the rollers?

Is a earth ramp a simple machine, what about a pulley, what about a lever/winch?
Surely if it was possible to move huge rocks with rollers, a bit of digging and a bunch of muscle you'd find stone monuments left by ancient people all over the globe?
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Old 21st November 2012, 06:08 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Surely if it was possible to move huge rocks with rollers, a bit of digging and a bunch of muscle you'd find stone monuments left by ancient people all over the globe?
You mean like the pyramids? Roman temples? Stone henge? Aztec ruins...
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Old 21st November 2012, 07:07 AM   #338
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How about the writings and carvings by the Romans that tell us exactly how they moved huge stones?
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Old 21st November 2012, 07:08 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Surely if it was possible to move huge rocks with rollers, a bit of digging and a bunch of muscle you'd find stone monuments left by ancient people all over the globe?
Yeah, that's crazy talk. Wait...
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Old 21st November 2012, 08:03 AM   #340
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So many words, such little content.

I've tried googling some of what you just said but drew blanks.
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Old 21st November 2012, 08:06 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Ah yes, now the pretend agreement goes to the actual denial phase, so Zeuzzz, what about those wooden rollers, where is that data that an 800 ton rock would crush the rollers?

http://forums.randi.org/newreply.php...eply&p=8766723

Someone later worked out it's not impossible on a perfectly smooth road, but definitely tests the wood to it's limit, even when 40 rollers are used.
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Old 21st November 2012, 08:07 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
OK. So your mystery is who mined (?), moved and laid the stones there? Specifically the foundation? How about a diagram or photo with an arrow indicating which stones are mysterious?
Seriously. Your facebook post just had a bunch of photos. It's hard to tell what your specific mystery is.

ETA - Seriously. "It's" is a conjuction of "it" and "is." It's not a possessive pronoun.

Last edited by carlitos; 21st November 2012 at 08:08 AM. Reason: grammer nazi
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Old 21st November 2012, 08:44 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
http://forums.randi.org/newreply.php...eply&p=8766723

Someone later worked out it's not impossible on a perfectly smooth road, but definitely tests the wood to it's limit, even when 40 rollers are used.
What stops more than forty being used? Lay down some rollers, move the stone forwards, leapfrog rollers from the rear to the front.

You know this is all pretty well established and does not require perfectly level roads?
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Old 21st November 2012, 08:58 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
http://forums.randi.org/newreply.php...eply&p=8766723

Someone later worked out it's not impossible on a perfectly smooth road, but definitely tests the wood to it's limit, even when 40 rollers are used.
Does this some one have a name?
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Old 21st November 2012, 09:05 AM   #345
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The laws of physics prevent more than 40 rollers being used. The gods get angry if you try to use more than 40. The extra logs burst into flame and then shoot glowing fire, Ark of the Covenant-style, through all the workers' bodies. It is known.

Also, Romans had no idea how to pave straight, level roads with opus caementicium (masonry resembling modern concrete that was made from crushed rock with burnt lime as binder, with volcanic ash and pulverized brick added to the burnt lime to obtain a hydraulic binder). Nope. No idea at all.
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Old 21st November 2012, 09:08 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Vortigern99 View Post
The laws of physics prevent more than 40 rollers being used. The gods get angry if you try to use more than 40. The extra logs burst into flame and then shoot glowing fire, Ark of the Covenant-style, through all the workers' bodies. It is known.

Also, Romans had no idea how to pave straight, level roads with opus caementicium (masonry resembling modern concrete that was made from crushed rock with burnt lime as binder, with volcanic ash and pulverized brick added to the burnt lime to obtain a hydraulic binder). Nope. No idea at all.
And of course there is the mystery of how they built all those aqueducts.
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Old 21st November 2012, 09:30 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Does this some one have a name?

Yes. Castro.

I find it funny that you missed pretty much the most productive post in this thread yet pay attention to all the others.

Originally Posted by Castro View Post
As the pregnant stone has never been moved let's calculate it again but for the Trilithon Stones:

length: 19.6 m
Width: 3.65 m

surface:
19.60 m x 3.65 m = 771.6 in x 143.7 in = 110878.92 sq in

Weight
800 tonnes = 1763700 lbs

flat psi
1763700/110878 = 15.9 psi

Contact surface:

10% : 159 psi
1% : 1590 psi
0.5%: 3180 psi
0.25% : 6360 psi
and
0.265% : 6000 psi

If red cedar has a compressive strength of 6,020 psi, the contact surface must be at least 0.265% of total surface to avoid the wood breaking:

19.60 m x 3.65 m x 0.265% = 1.9 m2

If there are 40 rollers with a diameter of about 0.5 m (remember that the length of the stone is about 20 m) the contact surface per roller must be at least:
1.9/40 = 0.047 m2/roller

The length of a roller is 3.65 m so the width of the total contact surface per roller must be (at least):
0.047/3,65 = 0.013 m = 0.51 in ( about 0.8% of the circumference of a roller...)

Taking into consideration the relative elasticity of the wood, the diameter (19.68 in) and the cicumference (61.8 in) of a roller, it seems coherent IMO.

The forty rollers is in fact constrained by the laws of physics and the coefficient of rolling resistance, even if it increases the surface area touching the stone.
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Old 21st November 2012, 09:31 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
What stops more than forty being used? Lay down some rollers, move the stone forwards, leapfrog rollers from the rear to the front.

You know this is all pretty well established and does not require perfectly level roads?
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...&postcount=160

The calculation was made for rollers with a diameter of 0.5 m. If the length of the stone is 20 m, then the maximum number of rollers supporting the weight of the stone is 40.
If the diameter of the rollers is 0.4 m, then this maximum number is 50, and the minimum width of the contact surface per roller must be 0.010 m = 10 mm to avoid the wood breaking.

So: if diameter of a roller = 0.5 m
then max number of rollers = 40
and minimum width of the contact surface per roller = 13 mm (about 0.8% of the circumference of a roller)
and
if diameter of a roller = 0.4 m
then max number of rollers = 50
and minimum width of the contact surface per roller = 10 mm (about 0.8% of the circumference of a roller either)

FWIW

Last edited by Castro; 21st November 2012 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 21st November 2012, 12:42 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
So many words, such little content.

I've tried googling some of what you just said but drew blanks.
there is more to research than Google.
How about hitting a Library?
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Old 21st November 2012, 12:55 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
What stops more than forty being used? Lay down some rollers, move the stone forwards, leapfrog rollers from the rear to the front.

You know this is all pretty well established and does not require perfectly level roads?

The bigger mystery is how people in the 21st century with even a modicum of reason and a rudimentary understanding of science consider this stone moving stuff a mystery.
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Old 21st November 2012, 12:57 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by GeeMack View Post
The bigger mystery is how people in the 21st century with even a modicum of reason and a rudimentary understanding of science consider this stone moving stuff a mystery.
That is truly a mystery.
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Old 21st November 2012, 12:57 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
there is more to research than Google.
How about hitting a Library?

Most scholars now a days don't sit in a library. They use online journals and google scholar to reference and research their work. Most books are online in ebook format to buy now too. Apart from very dated ones.

Plus I don't believe in violence to public services.
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Old 21st November 2012, 12:59 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by GeeMack View Post
The bigger mystery is how people in the 21st century with even a modicum of reason and a rudimentary understanding of science consider this stone moving stuff a mystery.

You are by far the most mysterious person in this thread.

Care to share any info or ideas yet? Or they going to remain the biggest mystery in this thread, while we happen to have solved many others?
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Old 21st November 2012, 01:44 PM   #354
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Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but: There are other examples of Roman stonework that are almost as impressive. The Western StoneWP in the Western WallWP in Jerusalem, for instance. It weights in at 517 tonnes and is not a mystery.

Last edited by svenax; 21st November 2012 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 21st November 2012, 02:17 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How about the writings and carvings by the Romans that tell us exactly how they moved huge stones?
How about it, Zeuzzz?
Care to tell us the Romans themselves aren't a good source of information about how they did it?
Care to post up any evidence the retaining wall at Baalbeck is pre-Roman?
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Old 21st November 2012, 06:23 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
You are by far the most mysterious person in this thread.

Thanks, I guess. I don't think most of us find this stone moving stuff to be especially mysterious though.

Quote:
Care to share any info or ideas yet? Or they going to remain the biggest mystery in this thread, while we happen to have solved many others?

Given the limited number of tools we call "simple machines", and the very limited materials available to the people of the time, the possible methods for lifting the Stone of the Pregnant Woman twenty feet would be, well, quite limited. If you continue to reduce the possible explanations by setting aside the least likely possibilities...
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
But as we pointed out before the stress on wood machines with such weight would severely constrain their effectiveness, unless you have evidence to the contrary.
... it shouldn't take you much time at all to work out a viable method. Can we eliminate any of those simple machines, and if so, why?
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Old 21st November 2012, 06:27 PM   #357
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I don't know, you tell me. You are the one that's known the answer within the first few posts since the OP yet not shared your input with the community.
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Old 21st November 2012, 06:50 PM   #358
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Start down this path...
Is there a way to lift stones an appreciable distance upward using only shovels and dirt and such? (Hint: there certainly is)

Now, once you've lifted the stone vertically enough, can't you then use gravity as your slave? (Hint: yes you can)

Would it take a lot of time with just six people with shovels on this size rock? Yep, depending on how far you needed to raise it and move it.
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Old 21st November 2012, 06:55 PM   #359
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I'm no physicist, but five minutes of research has reminded me that simple machines include wheels and axles, pulleys, levers, ramps and ropes.

We've already been discussing wheels in the form of log rollers, but GeeMack hasn't responded positively to this, so while Zeuzz has admitted it would work, wheels must not be the solution GM has in mind.

The use of levers -- think see-saw -- would require greater force/weight opposite the stone in order to lift it. I haven't done the math, but that's a lot of people/bricks/stones piled up on the other end of the lever. The advantage here is that discrete units of weight can be added to the pile until the weight of the object to be moved is exceeded. Then the lever rises and the stone is raised.

Once the stone has been raised as described above, the stone could be slid/dragged, via ropes and pulleys, by a large number of people and/or beasts of burden, from its position on the raised side of the lever to the top of a ramp. The stone would descend the ramp by the simple workings of gravity -- and/or the continued use of ropes -- to the bottom of the ramp.

Rinse and repeat.

That entire process took me about 8 minutes. Feel free to poke holes in it, as I've admitted I'm no expert in this area, but it's as good place to start as any... without, you know, actually reading about actual methods the Romans and other ancient cultures actually employed.
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Last edited by Vortigern99; 21st November 2012 at 06:56 PM.
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Old 21st November 2012, 07:00 PM   #360
RoboTimbo
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Originally Posted by Vortigern99 View Post
The use of levers -- think see-saw -- would require greater force/weight opposite the stone in order to lift it. I haven't done the math, but that's a lot of people/bricks/stones piled up on the other end of the lever. The advantage here is that discrete units of weight can be added to the pile until the weight of the object to be moved is exceeded. Then the lever rises and the stone is raised.
Now think about moving the fulcrum off center.
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