Time for me to sign up as a papist again? Inquisition not so bad.

a_unique_person · 15th June 2004, 07:58 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3809983.stm

Quote:

The Vatican has published a new study on the abuses committed by the mediaeval Inquisition and come to a rather surprising conclusion - that in fact the much feared judges of heresy were not as brutal as previously believed.
According to the 800-page report, the Inquisition that spread fear throughout Europe throughout the Middle Ages did not use execution or torture to anything like the extent history would have us believe.

In fact the book's editor, Professor Agostino Borromeo, claims that in Spain only 1.8% of those investigated by the notorious Spanish Inquisition were killed.

The rest just had a sore thumb or back.

fishbob · 15th June 2004, 08:08 PM

Quote:

The rest just had a sore thumb or back.

The comfy chair was maybe not so comfy.

Zep · 15th June 2004, 08:17 PM

They were just incarcerated for a short stretch...

Blue Monk · 15th June 2004, 08:30 PM

What!?

This wine is supposed to be served chilled but it is only room temperature.

You Bastards!!

I'll bet about a zillion Historians are all rushing off to correct their works due to this new revelation.

After all, who could be more objective about the Inquisition than the Vatican?

LW · 16th June 2004, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
The rest just had a sore thumb or back.

(I wonder how did I manage to post this empty the first time.)

But anyway, most of the rest had to wear yellow clothes for a couple of years.

If you are really surprised that the Inquisition was not an infernal machine that destroyed everybody who it laid hands on, then you should read less Protestant propaganda and more history.

I'd suggest starting from Emmanuel Le Roy's Montaillou.

LW · 16th June 2004, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blue Monk

After all, who could be more objective about the Inquisition than the Vatican?

This isn't exactly a startling new revelation. The Vatican archives are vast and contain lots and lots of details about heresy trials.

The usual procedure went something like this:

1) If you could convince your first interrogator that you didn't hold any heretical beliefs, you were set free.

2) If you confessed your interrogator your heresies and promised to repent, you would get some penintence to do and wear a mark of a heretic for some years (usually in form of a piece of a yellow clothing).

3) If you didn't confess but the interrogator thought that you were hiding something, he would order you to be tortured. Officially, you would be tortured only once but some investigators sidestepped about this restriction by "pausing" the torture for a couple of days.

4) If you confessed (voluntarily or out of torture) but refused to repent, then you would be condemned to death. Though, you would stilll get a few changes to repent before the sentence was carried out.

The vast majority of Inquistion trials ended in stage on or two.

ceo_esq · 16th June 2004, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blue Monk
I'll bet about a zillion Historians are all rushing off to correct their works due to this new revelation.

After all, who could be more objective about the Inquisition than the Vatican?

Er... much modern scholarship about the inquisition basically agrees with this new report. There aren't a "zillion historians" who still believe all of the myths associated with the bad reputation of the Inquisition.

By the way, the Vatican commissioned and published this report, but doesn't appear to have actually produced it in the sense you're implying. Rather, it is the record of the proceedings of a major international academic symposium on the subject of the Inquisition. Agostino Borromeo, the editor, is a well-respected expert in the field, a professor at the University of Rome and the president of the Italian Institute for Iberian Studies.

The symposium the report is based on actually took place several years ago, so for many experts the contents of the book will not come as news. However, I'll be curious to consult it when a French or English edition is available.

Ian Osborne · 16th June 2004, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ceo_esq
Er... much modern scholarship about the inquisition basically agrees with this new report. There aren't a "zillion historians" who still believe all of the myths associated with the bad reputation of the Inquisition.

Correct. The Spanish Inquisition by Henry Kamen advanced the same argument 40 years ago. It could be argued the Inquisition prevented the mob-rule summary 'justice' that was prevelent in western Europe.

Giz · 16th June 2004, 04:09 AM

"He says that often mannequins were burned to represent those tried in absentia and condemned to death and heretics and witches who repented at the last minute were given some sort of relief when they were strangled before being burnt."

- Very humane!

"In Lichtenstein just 300 people were executed for witchcraft, but this amounted to 10% of the tiny state's population."

- Only 10%!, what on earth are people whining about!? It's just tithing!

I notice (perhaps because they were focusing on the Spanish Inquisition) that they didn't mention the mass auto de fe's used against the Cathars (I think 800 burnt at once was the record), but what the heck, it probably saved all those heretics from being cold at night.

Seriously now, I'd put Inquisition apologists are on the same level as holocaust apologists.

They follow a particular creed and so seem to feel a tribal need to excuse away (or view in a favourable light) the actions of their fellow believers. No matter how vile.

LW · 16th June 2004, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Giz

Seriously now, I'd put Inquisition apologists are on the same level as holocaust apologists.

They follow a particular creed and so seem to feel a tribal need to excuse away (or view in a favourable light) the actions of their fellow believers. No matter how vile.

Just for your information in the case that you rank me on the same level as "holocaust apologists".

I'm an atheist, have been such for over 10 years, and before that I was a Lutheran protestant.

I just prefer to put the historical sources before the Reformation era propaganda.

ceo_esq · 16th June 2004, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LW

Just for your information in the case that you rank me on the same level as "holocaust apologists".

I'm an atheist, have been such for over 10 years, and before that I was a Lutheran protestant.

And the eminent Inquisition historian Prof. Henry Kamen, as you probably knew, is Jewish.

AtheistArchon · 16th June 2004, 07:03 AM

Quote:

I just prefer to put the historical sources before the Reformation era propaganda.

- Historical sources such as...? Just curious here. I'd like to read up.

Ian Osborne · 16th June 2004, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Giz
"In Lichtenstein just 300 people were executed for witchcraft, but this amounted to 10% of the tiny state's population."

- Only 10%!, what on earth are people whining about!? It's just tithing!

But surely Lichtenstein is well outside the juristiction of the Inquisition? This quote, and the sentence that preceeded it about Germany, describes the mob rule and hysteria which (according to Kamen) the Inquisition prevented in Spain.

Giz · 16th June 2004, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ian Osborne

But surely Lichtenstein is well outside the juristiction of the Inquisition? This quote, and the sentence that preceeded it about Germany, describes the mob rule and hysteria which (according to Kamen) the Inquisition prevented in Spain.

There was the Inquisition, first set up by the Dominicans to pruge the remnants of the Cathar heresy (i.e. established in the 1200's), and the Spanish Inquisition (set up after the reconquista was completed in 1492).

The Church didn't have all it's Inquisitors in one basket.

Darat · 16th June 2004, 07:29 AM

I know it seems like splitting hairs but wasn't it the case that the inquisition didn't execute anyone? I always thought they handed the "guilty" over to the secular authorities to do the actual killing?

LW · 16th June 2004, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AtheistArchon

- Historical sources such as...? Just curious here. I'd like to read up.

I suggest starting with Emmanuel LeRoy Ladruie's Montaillou, The Promised Land of Error. (sorry for misquoting the title and author earlier).

It is an account of life in a French village that was the site of one of the last large Inquistion trials against Cathars. The material of the book is taken mostly from the testimonies that inhabitants of the village told to the interrogators.

Now, it has been several years since I last read it, but my recollection is that only one of the accused was executed in the end, a couple died in prison before receiving their sentences, and the rest got off with penintence or no sentence at all. (Just about all inhabitants of the village, several hundreds of them, were involved in the trial).

The one who was executed was a rather strange case, since even though he was nominally a "perfect" meaning that he had supposedly encorporated all Cathar teachings in his life, he came up resembling quite a lot a modern tele-evangelist: he cheated money from his friends, committed adultery, etc. It is rather strange that he chose execution before repenting.

Jessica Blue · 16th June 2004, 08:10 AM

The Spanish Inquisition...?

I wasn't expecting that.

Mycroft · 16th June 2004, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jessica Blue
The Spanish Inquisition...?

I wasn't expecting that.

Must...resist...pavlovian...training...!

Jocko · 16th June 2004, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mycroft

Must...resist...pavlovian...training...!

I think you mean pythonian training.*

* Diabolical Posting

Mycroft · 16th June 2004, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jocko

I think you mean pythonian training.*

* Diabolical Posting

If you hang around with Python fans for more than an hour, you realize it's the same thing.

repairman · 16th June 2004, 09:18 AM

CAN'T resist

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise....
Our two weapons are fear and surprise... and ruthless efficiency....
Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...
and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope....
Our four... no...
Amongst our weapons... Amongst our weaponry...
are such elements as fear, surprise...
I'll come in again.

ceo_esq · 16th June 2004, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darat
I know it seems like splitting hairs but wasn't it the case that the inquisition didn't execute anyone? I always thought they handed the "guilty" over to the secular authorities to do the actual killing?

So far as I know, this is true. The convicted would be handed back to the civil authorities, generally to be dealt with according to the preferences of those civil authorities. Unfortunately, throughout European history, civil authorities have generally been much keener on death sentences than religious authorities have. And particularly in the context of the Spanish Inquisition, which was basically a political tool of the secular authorities, the state had been looking for excuses to eliminate some of these folks from the very beginning.

Blue Monk · 16th June 2004, 04:31 PM

Well this certainly is an educational forum.

Once again I find to my dismay exactly how little I know about a particular subject.

Goodness how the list grows, hehe.

I am disappointed, however, to learn that the movies are not accurate.

15th June 2004, 07:58 PM	#1
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,329	Time for me to sign up as a papist again? Inquisition not so bad. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3809983.stm Quote: The Vatican has published a new study on the abuses committed by the mediaeval Inquisition and come to a rather surprising conclusion - that in fact the much feared judges of heresy were not as brutal as previously believed. According to the 800-page report, the Inquisition that spread fear throughout Europe throughout the Middle Ages did not use execution or torture to anything like the extent history would have us believe. In fact the book's editor, Professor Agostino Borromeo, claims that in Spain only 1.8% of those investigated by the notorious Spanish Inquisition were killed. The rest just had a sore thumb or back.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

15th June 2004, 08:08 PM	#2
fishbob Seasonally Disaffected Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chilly Undieville Posts: 5,667	Quote: The rest just had a sore thumb or back. The comfy chair was maybe not so comfy.
	__________________ When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder "Stupidity - a callow indifference to facts or data" - Stuart Firestein -neuroscientist. I hate bigots.

15th June 2004, 08:17 PM	#3
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985	They were just incarcerated for a short stretch...
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985

15th June 2004, 08:30 PM	#4
Blue Monk Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 1,772	What!? This wine is supposed to be served chilled but it is only room temperature. You Bastards!! I'll bet about a zillion Historians are all rushing off to correct their works due to this new revelation. After all, who could be more objective about the Inquisition than the Vatican?
	__________________ Veni, Vidi, Velcro I came, I saw, I stuck around

16th June 2004, 02:01 AM	#5
LW Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 60°N 25°E Posts: 2,800	Re: Time for me to sign up as a papist again? Inquisition not so bad. Quote: Originally posted by a_unique_person The rest just had a sore thumb or back. (I wonder how did I manage to post this empty the first time.) But anyway, most of the rest had to wear yellow clothes for a couple of years. If you are really surprised that the Inquisition was not an infernal machine that destroyed everybody who it laid hands on, then you should read less Protestant propaganda and more history. I'd suggest starting from Emmanuel Le Roy's Montaillou.

16th June 2004, 02:13 AM	#6
LW Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 60°N 25°E Posts: 2,800	Quote: Originally posted by Blue Monk After all, who could be more objective about the Inquisition than the Vatican? This isn't exactly a startling new revelation. The Vatican archives are vast and contain lots and lots of details about heresy trials. The usual procedure went something like this: 1) If you could convince your first interrogator that you didn't hold any heretical beliefs, you were set free. 2) If you confessed your interrogator your heresies and promised to repent, you would get some penintence to do and wear a mark of a heretic for some years (usually in form of a piece of a yellow clothing). 3) If you didn't confess but the interrogator thought that you were hiding something, he would order you to be tortured. Officially, you would be tortured only once but some investigators sidestepped about this restriction by "pausing" the torture for a couple of days. 4) If you confessed (voluntarily or out of torture) but refused to repent, then you would be condemned to death. Though, you would stilll get a few changes to repent before the sentence was carried out. The vast majority of Inquistion trials ended in stage on or two.

16th June 2004, 03:12 AM	#7
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940	Quote: Originally posted by Blue Monk I'll bet about a zillion Historians are all rushing off to correct their works due to this new revelation. After all, who could be more objective about the Inquisition than the Vatican? Er... much modern scholarship about the inquisition basically agrees with this new report. There aren't a "zillion historians" who still believe all of the myths associated with the bad reputation of the Inquisition. By the way, the Vatican commissioned and published this report, but doesn't appear to have actually produced it in the sense you're implying. Rather, it is the record of the proceedings of a major international academic symposium on the subject of the Inquisition. Agostino Borromeo, the editor, is a well-respected expert in the field, a professor at the University of Rome and the president of the Italian Institute for Iberian Studies. The symposium the report is based on actually took place several years ago, so for many experts the contents of the book will not come as news. However, I'll be curious to consult it when a French or English edition is available.
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940

16th June 2004, 03:26 AM	#8
Ian Osborne JREF Kid Tagger Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Wiltshire Posts: 6,383	Quote: Originally posted by ceo_esq Er... much modern scholarship about the inquisition basically agrees with this new report. There aren't a "zillion historians" who still believe all of the myths associated with the bad reputation of the Inquisition. Correct. The Spanish Inquisition by Henry Kamen advanced the same argument 40 years ago. It could be argued the Inquisition prevented the mob-rule summary 'justice' that was prevelent in western Europe.
	__________________ "Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced" - Joe Klein, Time magazine "The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan

16th June 2004, 04:09 AM	#9
Giz Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: UK/US Posts: 3,440	"He says that often mannequins were burned to represent those tried in absentia and condemned to death and heretics and witches who repented at the last minute were given some sort of relief when they were strangled before being burnt." - Very humane! "In Lichtenstein just 300 people were executed for witchcraft, but this amounted to 10% of the tiny state's population." - Only 10%!, what on earth are people whining about!? It's just tithing! I notice (perhaps because they were focusing on the Spanish Inquisition) that they didn't mention the mass auto de fe's used against the Cathars (I think 800 burnt at once was the record), but what the heck, it probably saved all those heretics from being cold at night. Seriously now, I'd put Inquisition apologists are on the same level as holocaust apologists. They follow a particular creed and so seem to feel a tribal need to excuse away (or view in a favourable light) the actions of their fellow believers. No matter how vile.

16th June 2004, 06:57 AM	#10
LW Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 60°N 25°E Posts: 2,800	Quote: Originally posted by Giz Seriously now, I'd put Inquisition apologists are on the same level as holocaust apologists. They follow a particular creed and so seem to feel a tribal need to excuse away (or view in a favourable light) the actions of their fellow believers. No matter how vile. Just for your information in the case that you rank me on the same level as "holocaust apologists". I'm an atheist, have been such for over 10 years, and before that I was a Lutheran protestant. I just prefer to put the historical sources before the Reformation era propaganda.

16th June 2004, 07:03 AM	#11
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940	Quote: Originally posted by LW Just for your information in the case that you rank me on the same level as "holocaust apologists". I'm an atheist, have been such for over 10 years, and before that I was a Lutheran protestant. And the eminent Inquisition historian Prof. Henry Kamen, as you probably knew, is Jewish.
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940

16th June 2004, 07:03 AM	#12
AtheistArchon Muse Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 589	Quote: I just prefer to put the historical sources before the Reformation era propaganda. - Historical sources such as...? Just curious here. I'd like to read up.
AtheistArchon Muse Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 589

16th June 2004, 07:20 AM	#13
Ian Osborne JREF Kid Tagger Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Wiltshire Posts: 6,383	Quote: Originally posted by Giz "In Lichtenstein just 300 people were executed for witchcraft, but this amounted to 10% of the tiny state's population." - Only 10%!, what on earth are people whining about!? It's just tithing! But surely Lichtenstein is well outside the juristiction of the Inquisition? This quote, and the sentence that preceeded it about Germany, describes the mob rule and hysteria which (according to Kamen) the Inquisition prevented in Spain.
	__________________ "Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced" - Joe Klein, Time magazine "The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan

16th June 2004, 07:27 AM	#14
Giz Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: UK/US Posts: 3,440	Quote: Originally posted by Ian Osborne But surely Lichtenstein is well outside the juristiction of the Inquisition? This quote, and the sentence that preceeded it about Germany, describes the mob rule and hysteria which (according to Kamen) the Inquisition prevented in Spain. There was the Inquisition, first set up by the Dominicans to pruge the remnants of the Cathar heresy (i.e. established in the 1200's), and the Spanish Inquisition (set up after the reconquista was completed in 1492). The Church didn't have all it's Inquisitors in one basket.

16th June 2004, 07:29 AM	#15
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,793	I know it seems like splitting hairs but wasn't it the case that the inquisition didn't execute anyone? I always thought they handed the "guilty" over to the secular authorities to do the actual killing?
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

16th June 2004, 07:59 AM	#16
LW Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 60°N 25°E Posts: 2,800	Quote: Originally posted by AtheistArchon - Historical sources such as...? Just curious here. I'd like to read up. I suggest starting with Emmanuel LeRoy Ladruie's Montaillou, The Promised Land of Error. (sorry for misquoting the title and author earlier). It is an account of life in a French village that was the site of one of the last large Inquistion trials against Cathars. The material of the book is taken mostly from the testimonies that inhabitants of the village told to the interrogators. Now, it has been several years since I last read it, but my recollection is that only one of the accused was executed in the end, a couple died in prison before receiving their sentences, and the rest got off with penintence or no sentence at all. (Just about all inhabitants of the village, several hundreds of them, were involved in the trial). The one who was executed was a rather strange case, since even though he was nominally a "perfect" meaning that he had supposedly encorporated all Cathar teachings in his life, he came up resembling quite a lot a modern tele-evangelist: he cheated money from his friends, committed adultery, etc. It is rather strange that he chose execution before repenting.

16th June 2004, 08:10 AM	#17
Jessica Blue Renewable Virgin Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 319	The Spanish Inquisition...? I wasn't expecting that.

16th June 2004, 08:23 AM	#18
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,105	Quote: Originally posted by Jessica Blue The Spanish Inquisition...? I wasn't expecting that. Must...resist...pavlovian...training...!
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

16th June 2004, 08:50 AM	#19
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, Chicago... it's a toddling town. Posts: 5,463	Quote: Originally posted by Mycroft Must...resist...pavlovian...training...! I think you mean pythonian training.* * Diabolical Posting
	__________________ You claimed that a turd is a turd. I clearly demonstrated that some turds are gold. You're wrong, Jocko. KOA proving me "wrong."

16th June 2004, 09:11 AM	#20
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,105	Quote: Originally posted by Jocko I think you mean pythonian training.* * Diabolical Posting If you hang around with Python fans for more than an hour, you realize it's the same thing.
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

16th June 2004, 09:18 AM	#21
repairman Scholar Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 79	CAN'T resist NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise... and ruthless efficiency.... Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency... and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our four... no... Amongst our weapons... Amongst our weaponry... are such elements as fear, surprise... I'll come in again.
repairman Scholar Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 79

16th June 2004, 11:19 AM	#22
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940	Quote: Originally posted by Darat I know it seems like splitting hairs but wasn't it the case that the inquisition didn't execute anyone? I always thought they handed the "guilty" over to the secular authorities to do the actual killing? So far as I know, this is true. The convicted would be handed back to the civil authorities, generally to be dealt with according to the preferences of those civil authorities. Unfortunately, throughout European history, civil authorities have generally been much keener on death sentences than religious authorities have. And particularly in the context of the Spanish Inquisition, which was basically a political tool of the secular authorities, the state had been looking for excuses to eliminate some of these folks from the very beginning.
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940

16th June 2004, 04:31 PM	#23
Blue Monk Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 1,772	Well this certainly is an educational forum. Once again I find to my dismay exactly how little I know about a particular subject. Goodness how the list grows, hehe. I am disappointed, however, to learn that the movies are not accurate.
	__________________ Veni, Vidi, Velcro I came, I saw, I stuck around