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Tags civil rights , gender identity , law enforcement issues , privacy , transgender

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Old 12th November 2012, 07:56 AM   #41
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For a college, people should get over it. For a college that has 6 yr olds using the lockers at the same time, what kind of idiots would think that was equally acceptable?

As for a predator faking it, I just don't see that as very likely if the administrators do their homework.
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Old 12th November 2012, 08:15 AM   #42
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This was discussed on another forum and the transgender women there said that if the woman is pre op (as many of them are) even if they are using the locker room, if children come in they should go into a stall as even a cisgendered woman should do. So they think there is more to this story.
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Old 12th November 2012, 08:23 AM   #43
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Jeez!!!!! imagine the outrage if a lesbian showered in the guys locker room
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Old 12th November 2012, 08:23 AM   #44
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We have a Transexual where I work... and its a small work place. We have both male and female locker rooms...... I don't think Ive seen her go in either once. I don't thinl she would either..... at least not go in and get changed..... if she did, the pervs that I work with would run in to attempt to settle a long running work place bet.
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Old 12th November 2012, 08:28 AM   #45
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They learned a valuable life lesson. Don't look at other people in the locker room. Someone could start doing naked cartwheels and I wouldn't look.

I have to wonder why any adults were allowed to use the locker rooms when the kids were. All they have to do is close it to others for 10 minutes at the beginning and end of the children's class.

It might be a mild inconvenience but it would be worth it to make sure no one is accused of anything.
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Old 12th November 2012, 08:41 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Nihilianth View Post
YMCA's across America have grown men showering while naked, and there are always little boys present. Literally: There. Is. Nothing. Wrong. With. That. Period.

Like I said, no wonder the rest of the world thinks Americans are nuts.
Been to a YMCA lately? They don't do that anymore.



(I think it's kind of silly that they don't do that anymore, but they don't.)
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Old 12th November 2012, 08:47 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Ummm... I think the issue is more that the guy saw women/girls naked, rather than the other way around.

It's about both, really, but this one is the biggest of the two issues. A lot of women and girls would also be uncomfortable around a naked guy that they didn't know as well.


Except...wait. No. My mistake. No guy saw any naked females, because this story isn't about a guy. It's about a woman who has a congenital genetic abnormality, known as a Y chromosome, that causes her to have the external appearance of a male.
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Old 12th November 2012, 08:47 AM   #48
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Oh the humanity! Can one possibly comprehend the mental trauma when a gay guy sees mons pubis when he is showering with some heterosexual men?
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Old 12th November 2012, 08:53 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by showmevegas View Post
Oh the humanity! Can one possibly comprehend the mental trauma when a gay guy sees mons pubis when he is showering with some heterosexual men?
You're confusing transexual transgendered with homosexual.

EDIT: To fix ironic mistake.
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Old 12th November 2012, 08:57 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Pretty sure a clinic would not disqualify you from reassignment surgery because you used the men's locker room in order to avoid exposing your genitals to little girls. That would be fairly petty and unsympathetic. Any clinic or doctor in such a field will understand the legal issues in play here; they're not idiots.
The legal issues might well come down on the side of her using the locker room though.
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Old 12th November 2012, 09:10 AM   #51
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Ok I get that. You are right. Still don't understand the problem. Gay guys eye googling other guys in the shower,lesbians eye googling other ladies, transgender eye googling whatever...
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Old 12th November 2012, 09:17 AM   #52
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My FSM its a penis around 50% of us humans have one
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Old 12th November 2012, 09:24 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by showmevegas View Post
Ok I get that. You are right. Still don't understand the problem. Gay guys eye googling other guys in the shower,lesbians eye googling other ladies, transgender eye googling whatever...
It's nothing to do with sexuality, or even gender. It's about strange, naked adults being around children.
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Old 12th November 2012, 09:29 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The legal issues might well come down on the side of her using the locker room though.
Depends. Forget about surgery, is there any evidence that this person is legally a woman? Can't find the link right now but in the local news story I saw, this person was doing a very poor job passing for a woman.

So if I put on a fake beard and went to this college I could go into the boy's locker room because I self-identified as male?
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Old 12th November 2012, 09:30 AM   #55
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Why don't they just make a gender neutral facility and been done with this?
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Old 12th November 2012, 09:31 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
It's about strange, naked adults being around children.
Check out Colleen Francis, the person in question. I'm 48 and I wouldn't want to be around that strange!
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Old 12th November 2012, 09:35 AM   #57
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Old 12th November 2012, 09:36 AM   #58
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Old 12th November 2012, 09:48 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
Depends. Forget about surgery, is there any evidence that this person is legally a woman? Can't find the link right now but in the local news story I saw, this person was doing a very poor job passing for a woman.

So if I put on a fake beard and went to this college I could go into the boy's locker room because I self-identified as male?
Well I will have to look at the laws but being legally recognized as male or female might not be needed for bathroom use by the laws.

ETA it seems that many of those laws do not focus on legal gender, but presentation and identity.
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Old 12th November 2012, 09:57 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
It's nothing to do with sexuality, or even gender. It's about strange, naked adults being around children.

Ok it must be the strangeness and nakedittity
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Old 12th November 2012, 10:05 AM   #61
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I don't know why a nude stranger is worse than a nude acquaintance. Hell, for quite a few of my acquaintances I'd prefer not seeing them nude. Which would you rather see nude: a random stranger, your boss, or your grandma?
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Old 12th November 2012, 10:14 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I don't know why a nude stranger is worse than a nude acquaintance. Hell, for quite a few of my acquaintances I'd prefer not seeing them nude. Which would you rather see nude: a random stranger, your boss, or your grandma?
Depends?
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Old 12th November 2012, 05:00 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by L.Y.S. View Post
Why don't they just make a gender neutral facility and been done with this?
Wow, it's so easy to solve problems like this in Hypothetical World where we can reverse deeply-rooted cultural mores and norms instantly with the click of a button. Now we just have to find a way to solve the problem back in Real World.
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Old 12th November 2012, 05:49 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Wow, it's so easy to solve problems like this in Hypothetical World where we can reverse deeply-rooted cultural mores and norms instantly with the click of a button. Now we just have to find a way to solve the problem back in Real World.
Just don't have adults in at the same time as a class of school children. Problem solved.
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Old 12th November 2012, 06:16 PM   #65
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Something that seems to have been brushed over is that a transitioning TGW would not look like a man in many ways, especially if they are on hormones which would change their body shape and cause breast growth. Is it fair to make a person that believes that they are a woman, and who has a body that is changing to a woman’s, with the exception of the lower half, to be placed in a male environment that would not only be high judgemental, but also dangerous to them?

As to straight non-trans men pretending to be trans just to ogle naked women, how many would go through the getting a female hair style, clothing, drug and hormone programs, growing breasts, etc, that trans women do just for that? I doubt it would be that many.
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Old 12th November 2012, 07:33 PM   #66
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In the future, the whole surgical transformation will be done in weeks, not years, and this will not be so much of a problem.
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Old 12th November 2012, 08:27 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Been to a YMCA lately? They don't do that anymore.



(I think it's kind of silly that they don't do that anymore, but they don't.)
Actually, I haven't been to a Y in about 15 years. Maybe longer. I was like 12 or 13 or so last time I stepped foot in one.

I can't say that I was ever really creeped out or somehow traumatized whenever I saw another naked body. If anything, I was a bit amused.

Also, not sure what you mean by "they don't do that anymore." Did all the Ys at some point get together and decide to have men's locker rooms separated from children or something? Because as long as there are only male and female separation of locker rooms as opposed to male adult, female adult, male child, and female child; it WILL happen that grown adults will inevitably end up in the same locker room as young children, and I am sure it will inevitably occur that one or the other may happen to be naked.

Getting naked: It happens. It's how you keep your body clean. It also happens to be how you change into clean clothes. It is what separates humans from animals.

Seriously. This is probably the least mature and perhaps most idiotic "debate" to occur in our society. You have a much greater chance of walking outside and randomly getting shot, as you do of ever meeting with perverted rapists. I am pretty sure I saw such statistics at one point somewhere or another.....
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Old 12th November 2012, 08:32 PM   #68
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This is stupid. When will we learn that being naked isn't the same as being sexual? This country is so repressed that simply seeing a nipple-slip is evil, and a penis even worse.
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Old 12th November 2012, 09:06 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
This is stupid. When will we learn that being naked isn't the same as being sexual? This country is so repressed that simply seeing a nipple-slip is evil, and a penis even worse.
x10,000

Exactly!
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Old 12th November 2012, 09:18 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
It's nothing to do with sexuality, or even gender. It's about strange, naked adults being around children.
Exactly. But they ain't gonna let a little thing like reality mess up their argument!
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Old 12th November 2012, 09:20 PM   #71
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Please stop calling the woman who was changing a guy or a he.
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Old 12th November 2012, 09:24 PM   #72
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Instead of getting angry maybe the parents should think of it as a teachable moment. A chance to teach their children that transgender people exist.

As long as the TG individual wasn't engaging in any overtly creepy behavior, like flaunting the penis in front of little girls.
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Old 12th November 2012, 09:33 PM   #73
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What I don't really get - if I knew there was a chance of children being in the same locker room - i sure wouldn't be naked in there! Our local pools have male, female, and "family" changing rooms for the kids.
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Old 12th November 2012, 09:53 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
This is stupid. When will we learn that being naked isn't the same as being sexual? This country is so repressed that simply seeing a nipple-slip is evil, and a penis even worse.
Well, I'd say that's at the heart of why Puritanical societies make nakedness into such a sexual thing, because it specifically makes all things sexual hyper sexy, thereby making sex more exciting for it's taboo factor.
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Old 12th November 2012, 11:10 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
I know quite a few trans women who pass immaculately, but haven't had the surgery yet. Using the men's locker room causes them to involuntarily out themselves, and puts them at the very real risk of assaulted or murdered. I don't blame them for staying out of men's spaces.
That is terrible and I never thought about it like that. However, me as a boy boy would also be putting myself at serious bodily risk by walking around naked in a women's locker room though not for as much of a bigoted reason. Maybe not by the females but possibly by their male friends or relatives.

Sort of off topic there was an incident recently here in Korea where a Soldier had found some company here at a local bar. They had drinks and there was a little business taking place under the table, literally and figuratively. The Soldier discovered something he was not expecting and was angry, angry enough to assault the person. He was actually forced to pay reparations to the TG male. When this story is related to new Soldiers as part of their newcomers brief they laugh and I don't find it funny at all.

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
This is stupid. When will we learn that being naked isn't the same as being sexual? This country is so repressed that simply seeing a nipple-slip is evil, and a penis even worse.
I get this on an intellectual level but at the same time in our Western culture we have somehow come to believe that nudity is only appropriate in certain circumstances. Even if you and others here are so progressive and beyond that I am sure that we can grant that others may not be and I don't think that it is too much to ask for someone to take their genitals to the room designated for them.

Post a photo of your genitals with your user name written on it. Would that violate the TOS? Would that make this forum 'stupid' as well or just in line with some basic widely agreed cultural norm that nudity has it's proper place?
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Old 13th November 2012, 01:44 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
I know quite a few trans women who pass immaculately, but haven't had the surgery yet. Using the men's locker room causes them to involuntarily out themselves, and puts them at the very real risk of assaulted or murdered. I don't blame them for staying out of men's spaces.
This is tragic, it really is, but why not just install unisex facilities for TS/TG ppl so that they can dress and live in peace? I see other ppl shooting down this proposal, but it seems to be the most sensible thing to do.
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Old 13th November 2012, 02:04 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by One Tenth View Post
Please stop calling the woman who was changing a guy or a he.
Just what is the correct nomenclature/pronoun for a cross-dresser male pretending to be lesbian?

<second sentence redacted>
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Old 13th November 2012, 03:01 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by foxholeatheist View Post
That is terrible and I never thought about it like that. However, me as a boy boy would also be putting myself at serious bodily risk by walking around naked in a women's locker room though not for as much of a bigoted reason. Maybe not by the females but possibly by their male friends or relatives.

Sort of off topic there was an incident recently here in Korea where a Soldier had found some company here at a local bar. They had drinks and there was a little business taking place under the table, literally and figuratively. The Soldier discovered something he was not expecting and was angry, angry enough to assault the person. He was actually forced to pay reparations to the TG male.
True he should have faced serious criminal charges in addition to civil.
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Old 13th November 2012, 04:14 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Nihilianth View Post
Also, not sure what you mean by "they don't do that anymore." Did all the Ys at some point get together and decide to have men's locker rooms separated from children or something?
Yes.

There are now men's, women's, and "family". All minors are required to use family. In the family locker room, there are individual stalls for changing and for showers. No one walks around naked in the family locker room.


As far as I know, this is national policy now, although it could just be a local thing.
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Old 13th November 2012, 04:17 AM   #80
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Yes.

There are now men's, women's, and "family". All minors are required to use family. In the family locker room, there are individual stalls for changing and for showers. No one walks around naked in the family locker room.


As far as I know, this is national policy now, although it could just be a local thing.
Not nationally. I know a man who needs to go into the ladies room sometimes because that is where the changing station is. As a gay man I am sure he is not perving on the women.

Also what about fathers taking say a three year old girl to a pool? Which locker room do they use?
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