JREF Homepage Swift Blog Events Calendar $1 Million Paranormal Challenge The Amaz!ng Meeting Useful Links Support Us
James Randi Educational Foundation JREF Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   JREF Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
Click Here To Donate

Notices


Welcome to the JREF Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.

Tags civil rights , gender identity , law enforcement issues , privacy , transgender

Reply
Old 16th November 2012, 03:50 PM   #161
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: At the bottom of a dark Scottish loch.
Posts: 8,081
Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Doesn't matter. He was in a place that he shouldn't have been.
You say that as if there is a law dictating which changing room pre op transexuals must use.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2012, 03:57 PM   #162
Quad4_72
AI-EE-YAH!
 
Quad4_72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 6,181
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You say that as if there is a law dictating which changing room pre op transexuals must use.
By law is he a male or female?
__________________
Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
Quad4_72 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2012, 04:01 PM   #163
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 37,868
Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Doesn't matter. He was in a place that he shouldn't have been.

Wrong. The very start of the article linked in the OP.

Quote:
A controversial decision by Evergreen State College officials to let a transgender student to use the women's locker room....

It's clear that she had specific permission to be there.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2012, 04:07 PM   #164
Quad4_72
AI-EE-YAH!
 
Quad4_72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 6,181
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Wrong. The very start of the article linked in the OP.




It's clear that she had specific permission to be there.

Rolfe.
I think both are to blame. But I guess the real question is, who is the real authority on who is allowed to go into which locker rooms? Is it the school officials? Or is there a state law of some sort? If it is solely up to the school, then I disagree 100% on their decision.
__________________
Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
Quad4_72 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2012, 04:55 PM   #165
Earthborn
Terrestrial Intelligence
 
Earthborn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Terra Firma
Posts: 5,844
Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Ok, so you didn't answer the question. Do you believe it is alright for any male to dress up as a woman, claim he is a woman, and then go into a locker room and get naked?
Do you believe that it is alright for any man to dress up as a man, claim he is a man, and then go into a locker room and expose himself to little boys? I don't believe that is alright, for the same reason you think a male exposing himself to little girls is not alright. Facilities like these should offer privacy, not segregation based on minor biological differences.

Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Doesn't matter. He was in a place that he shouldn't have been.
A place that shouldn't exist.

Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
By law is he a male or female?
The article doesn't say. Would you still have a problem with this person "getting naked" in the women's locker room if she is registered as female? I think you would, so whether she has an M or F in her ID card is irrelevant to the discussion.

Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
But I guess the real question is, who is the real authority on who is allowed to go into which locker rooms? Is it the school officials? Or is there a state law of some sort?
In the article it is clearly mentioned that there is a state law of some sort.
__________________
Perhaps nothing is entirely true; and not even that!
Multatuli
Earthborn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2012, 04:57 PM   #166
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Tarrytown, NY
Posts: 28,442
Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
By law is he a male or female?
What state was she in? She could have had the explicit legal right to be there.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2012, 05:12 PM   #167
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base
Posts: 11,545
Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
By law is he a male or female?
I believe you'll find that under many states laws, TGs are to be considered their target gender, so she would be a legally a woman. A number of states, and I believe it says in the OP have anti-discrimination laws to protect TGs as that gender as well.

Gender is what is between the ears, not what is between the legs.

And honestly, unless there is a serious problem with cis-males crossdressing to get into women's changing rooms to perv, I don't see the issue with allowing Transwomen to use the changing room of their target gender.

Since Beerina failed to answer, I'll ask you the same question. Should this person be forced to use the men's locker room?
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
My Apollo Page.
PhantomWolf is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2012, 05:47 PM   #168
Quad4_72
AI-EE-YAH!
 
Quad4_72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 6,181
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I believe you'll find that under many states laws, TGs are to be considered their target gender, so she would be a legally a woman. A number of states, and I believe it says in the OP have anti-discrimination laws to protect TGs as that gender as well.

Gender is what is between the ears, not what is between the legs.

And honestly, unless there is a serious problem with cis-males crossdressing to get into women's changing rooms to perv, I don't see the issue with allowing Transwomen to use the changing room of their target gender.

Since Beerina failed to answer, I'll ask you the same question. Should this person be forced to use the men's locker room?
Does that person have a penis?
__________________
Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
Quad4_72 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2012, 05:50 PM   #169
Quad4_72
AI-EE-YAH!
 
Quad4_72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 6,181
Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Do you believe that it is alright for any man to dress up as a man, claim he is a man, and then go into a locker room and expose himself to little boys? I don't believe that is alright, for the same reason you think a male exposing himself to little girls is not alright. Facilities like these should offer privacy, not segregation based on minor biological differences.
Yes, it is alright for a man to get naked in a male locker room. And "Minor" biological differences? You lose about all credibility with that statement right there.

Quote:
A place that shouldn't exist.
Huh?

Quote:
The article doesn't say. Would you still have a problem with this person "getting naked" in the women's locker room if she is registered as female? I think you would, so whether she has an M or F in her ID card is irrelevant to the discussion.
Yes I would still have a problem. If he has a penis, he is a man.
__________________
Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
Quad4_72 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2012, 06:21 PM   #170
gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
 
gumboot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 24,676
To me it's pretty straight forward. Either dressing rooms are segregated based on physical appearance, for the sake of decency or whatever, or they're segregated based on sexuality for safety reasons, or they're unsegregated and we just pile in together and get over ourselves.

Segregation based on sexual orientation just isn't practical as society seems determined to discover a new sexual orientation every five minutes. You will end up with facilities having to provide half a dozen changing rooms.

That leaves either non-segregation (which I suspect would go down like a cup of cold sick amongst your average person) or appearance-based segregation. Maybe instead of a person in trousers and a person in a dress designating the two rooms they could change the iconography to a penis and a vulva, so we can avoid these sorts of predicaments in future.
__________________

O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde
keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.


A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.
gumboot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2012, 06:25 PM   #171
Earthborn
Terrestrial Intelligence
 
Earthborn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Terra Firma
Posts: 5,844
Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Yes, it is alright for a man to get naked in a male locker room.
Please explain why you think it is okay for a man to confront boys with his nakedness, but not girls.

Quote:
And "Minor" biological differences?
Since you care mostly about whether a person has a penis or not, the term "minor" is appropriate: penises are usually not that big. There are many other biological differences between people that are much more obvious, and much harder to hide. Why not have segregated locker rooms for black and white people, or for tall and short? Or if you really want to avoid little girls from seeing adult penises, between young and old?

Quote:
Huh?
It is not that hard to understand what I wrote: sex-segregated facilities such as locker rooms should not exist.

Quote:
Yes I would still have a problem. If he has a penis, he is a man.
If all you care about is the existence of a penis, why bother to ask about a person's legal gender?
__________________
Perhaps nothing is entirely true; and not even that!
Multatuli
Earthborn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2012, 06:39 PM   #172
Quad4_72
AI-EE-YAH!
 
Quad4_72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 6,181
Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Please explain why you think it is okay for a man to confront boys with his nakedness, but not girls.
There is a difference between confronting, and transitioning from naked to clothed while everyone has the same parts.
Quote:
Since you care mostly about whether a person has a penis or not, the term "minor" is appropriate: penises are usually not that big. There are many other biological differences between people that are much more obvious, and much harder to hide. Why not have segregated locker rooms for black and white people, or for tall and short? Or if you really want to avoid little girls from seeing adult penises, between young and old?
This entire quote pretty much renders anything you say from this point out meaningless. The fact that you are comparing skin color to sexual organs is not only ridiculous, but the fact that you comparing them KNOWING it's ridiculous and stupid is a bit disrespectful.

Quote:
It is not that hard to understand what I wrote: sex-segregated facilities such as locker rooms should not exist.
Based on what exactly? The .3% of the population that identifies as transgender? Is that your reasoning? I would be willing to bet that a large majority of the population would be quite uncomfortable with people of the opposite sex viewing them naked. Again, you have chosen to go with the "Ridiculous" route.
Quote:
If all you care about is the existence of a penis, why bother to ask about a person's legal gender?
By that line of reasoning, do you believe that Males (People with penises) who identify as females should be housed in womens prisons? What kind of risks do you see associated with that?
__________________
Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
Quad4_72 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2012, 06:40 PM   #173
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Tarrytown, NY
Posts: 28,442
Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Based on what exactly? The .3% of the population that identifies as transgender? Is that your reasoning? I would be willing to bet that a large majority of the population would be quite uncomfortable with people of the opposite sex viewing them naked. Again, you have chosen to go with the "Ridiculous" route.
I thought that the .3 percent was those who had had surgery, so clearly people like this woman wouldn't be counted.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2012, 06:52 PM   #174
Earthborn
Terrestrial Intelligence
 
Earthborn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Terra Firma
Posts: 5,844
Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
To me it's pretty straight forward. Either dressing rooms are segregated based on physical appearance,
"Physical appearance" is not that straight forward, and does not straight forwardly correlate with having either a penis or vulva.

Quote:
That leaves either non-segregation (which I suspect would go down like a cup of cold sick amongst your average person)
Lack of privacy is not something that is a problem only for transgenders. Lots of people feel bothered to use facilities that do not allow them to change without strangers looking at them, or avoid activities altogether if they need to go through this. Some people may have religious objections against immodesty, some are just very self-conscious or have some physical abnormality they would rather hide. Perhaps many people are ashamed to admit it, but would still support more modest changing rooms. Once you have those, the reasons for segregating them based on sex/gender mostly disappear.
__________________
Perhaps nothing is entirely true; and not even that!
Multatuli
Earthborn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2012, 07:02 PM   #175
Noztradamus
Master Poster
 
Noztradamus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,232
Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
I don't know about other cultures, but in the one here in the United States, full grown men flashing their genitals to young girls is a crime.
But "I believe I'm shemale" is a defence to the charge.
__________________
The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping.
Noztradamus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2012, 07:19 PM   #176
Earthborn
Terrestrial Intelligence
 
Earthborn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Terra Firma
Posts: 5,844
Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
There is a difference between confronting, and transitioning from naked to clothed while everyone has the same parts.
There is also a difference between confronting and transitioning from naked to clothed while some people have different parts; so you haven't adressed the issue of why the parts are all that relevant.

Quote:
The fact that you are comparing skin color to sexual organs is not only ridiculous, but the fact that you comparing them KNOWING it's ridiculous and stupid is a bit disrespectful.
All I know is that segregating people based on sexual organs is just as ridiculous and stupid, and you haven't even tried to convince anyone otherwise.

Quote:
Based on what exactly? The .3% of the population that identifies as transgender? Is that your reasoning? I would be willing to bet that a large majority of the population would be quite uncomfortable with people of the opposite sex viewing them naked.
I would be willing to bet that a slightly smaller majority is already quite uncomfortable with people of the same sex viewing them naked. I would also be willing to bet that only a very small minority is uncomfortable with other people not viewing them naked. There is a very simple and obvious solution that makes a huge majority of people perfectly comfortable: allow people to change in privacy.

Quote:
By that line of reasoning, do you believe that Males (People with penises) who identify as females should be housed in womens prisons? What kind of risks do you see associated with that?
In all but the most barbaric prison systems, that is already what happens and for good reason, because the risks associated with housing transwomen with men are far greater than housing them with women. Of course most risks in a prison can be solved by a One-Prisoner/One-Cell system.
__________________
Perhaps nothing is entirely true; and not even that!
Multatuli
Earthborn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2012, 08:13 PM   #177
truethat
Penultimate Amazing
 
truethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,865
There's a lot of nonsense in this thread. Sexual organs are not just 'body parts' like any other because they are used in a sexual way and can be used to traumatize or hurt people.

This isn't about a person changing clothes, it's the worry that it's being done in a way to try to deliberately upset or offend. That is the thing about sexual assault, it's not about sex, it's about power. Any decent person I know would cover up if in the presence of another person's child.

To argue otherwise is just pretending there's some 'puritan" issue here when there isn't.
__________________
“People who say they don't have time to read simply don't want to.”

― Julie Rugg, A Book Addict's Treasury
truethat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2012, 08:26 PM   #178
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base
Posts: 11,545
Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Does that person have a penis?
Yes, she's a pre-op TG woman (who apparently has a desire to look like Amy Winehouse...) If she didn't I wouldn't have asked you the question.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
My Apollo Page.
PhantomWolf is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2012, 08:27 PM   #179
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base
Posts: 11,545
Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
If he has a penis, he is a man.
Incorrect.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
My Apollo Page.
PhantomWolf is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2012, 08:35 PM   #180
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base
Posts: 11,545
Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
There is a difference between confronting, and transitioning from naked to clothed while everyone has the same parts.
And yet you seem to think that there is no difference between confronting, and transitioning from naked to clothed while someone has slightly different parts

Quote:
Based on what exactly? The .3% of the population that identifies as transgender? Is that your reasoning? I would be willing to bet that a large majority of the population would be quite uncomfortable with people of the opposite sex viewing them naked. Again, you have chosen to go with the "Ridiculous" route.
Except that when talking TG, they aren't a different sex, they are the same as the target sex. A TG woman is female. Under your own argument it is therefore wrong to allow her to be naked around men.

Quote:
By that line of reasoning, do you believe that Males (People with penises) who identify as females should be housed in womens prisons? What kind of risks do you see associated with that?
I would suggest that the risks of having a TG woman in a women's prison is far less than the risks of having a TG woman in a man's prison. Most TG women are straight, ie they are attracted to men. Of the rest that are attractred to women, it would be no difference than having a Lesbian in a women's prison. The odds are way higher than a TG woman would be attacked and raped or killed in a men's prision than a TG women would attack or rape a fellow prisoner in a woman's prison (or be attacked or raped themselves)
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
My Apollo Page.

Last edited by PhantomWolf; 16th November 2012 at 08:37 PM.
PhantomWolf is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2012, 04:26 PM   #181
gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
 
gumboot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 24,676
Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
"Physical appearance" is not that straight forward, and does not straight forwardly correlate with having either a penis or vulva.
It does if you say it does.



Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Lack of privacy is not something that is a problem only for transgenders. Lots of people feel bothered to use facilities that do not allow them to change without strangers looking at them, or avoid activities altogether if they need to go through this. Some people may have religious objections against immodesty, some are just very self-conscious or have some physical abnormality they would rather hide. Perhaps many people are ashamed to admit it, but would still support more modest changing rooms. Once you have those, the reasons for segregating them based on sex/gender mostly disappear.

This is a sensible way of implementing all-use changing rooms (which I am in favour of, personally), by having individual changing stalls instead of large open changing areas. Of course this has its own problems as it is far less efficient, and much more expensive.

It would be interesting to do studies of changing room use in public facilities to see how many people are actually using a changing room at any given time. From my own personal anecdotal evidence, even in quite busy facilities I find there's usually only a relatively small number of people changing at any given time, which means you could perhaps get away with far less private stalls than people think. Perhaps a combination of private stalls and communal changing areas for the uninhibited could be a solution. Those wanting privacy might just have to wait a bit if the facility is busy.
__________________

O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde
keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.


A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.
gumboot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2012, 04:33 PM   #182
gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
 
gumboot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 24,676
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The odds are way higher than a TG woman would be attacked and raped or killed in a men's prision than a TG women would attack or rape a fellow prisoner in a woman's prison (or be attacked or raped themselves)

Actually sexual violence is more frequent in female prisons than male prisons, and in particular inmate-on-inmate sexual violence is more common in female prisons (more sexual violence in male prison involves guards).

At least in the USA.

So a TG woman would be safer in a male prison, at least in theory.
__________________

O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde
keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.


A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.
gumboot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2012, 09:07 PM   #183
foxholeatheist
Graduate Poster
 
foxholeatheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Seoul, South Korea
Posts: 1,159
Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
If he has a penis, he is a man.
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Incorrect.
Wha.. ah.. huh? This is basic stuff and I may have missed something but people with male sex organs, barring rare cases of hermaphrodites certainly are not female.

There's a lot of molehill engineering going on here.
__________________
You start wearing the blue and brown and
You're working for the clampdown
-The Clash

My Band!
The Heimlich County Gun Club
foxholeatheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2012, 09:46 PM   #184
Morrigan
Crone of War
 
Morrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8,265
Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
Actually sexual violence is more frequent in female prisons than male prisons, and in particular inmate-on-inmate sexual violence is more common in female prisons (more sexual violence in male prison involves guards).

At least in the USA.
Citation please? I find that very hard to believe.
Morrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2012, 11:49 PM   #185
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 23,451
Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Yes, because mildly disturbing behavior is ok as long as it doesn't completely wreck someone Ooh that's fun
To call it disturbing just to exist shows your bigotry. Nice try, though.
__________________
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2012, 11:52 PM   #186
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 23,451
Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
This is absolutely ridiculous. Not sure what fantasy world you live in, but here in the real world, it IS a crime and should CONTINUE to be a crime for men to go showing their genitals off to little girls. Utterly disgusting, and it's quite a bit more disgusting that there are individuals on this very forum encouraging that kind of behavior.
So you think it would be ok for this person to show off those womanly-shaped breasts in a boy locker room? I don't think it's a problem, but I'm trying to figure out how your diode-like morality works.
__________________
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2012, 11:54 PM   #187
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 23,451
Originally Posted by Femke View Post
In the sauna facility that I frequent, everyone sits, swims, and walks about with all body parts bobbing and dangling freely. People of all ages can see them, and nobody seems to take any notice, including the little children. I don't think the sauna bathers are all criminals.
But you are in the Netherlands, where all people are sexual deviants, socialist and junkies.
__________________
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2012, 01:38 AM   #188
gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
 
gumboot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 24,676
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
So you think it would be ok for this person to show off those womanly-shaped breasts in a boy locker room? I don't think it's a problem, but I'm trying to figure out how your diode-like morality works.

I don't know about America, but here in New Zealand only the display of genitalia is illegal. Women are perfectly within their rights to walk about topless, if they wish (and indeed we have a topless parade celebrating that fact, every year!).
__________________

O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde
keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.


A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.
gumboot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2012, 04:10 AM   #189
DreamingNaiad
Muse
 
DreamingNaiad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: The forgotten sweet abyss
Posts: 519
Originally Posted by foxholeatheist View Post
Wha.. ah.. huh? This is basic stuff and I may have missed something but people with male sex organs, barring rare cases of hermaphrodites certainly are not female.

There's a lot of molehill engineering going on here.
And what if you lost your penis in a terrible baking accident? Lol

I usually go by chromosomes. So if you were born with a Y chromosome I will think of you as biologically male. I will call you 'she' if that's what you want but I don't want to see your private parts. Or anyone's for that matter. Ever.

You could believe in your mind that you're a fairy princess for all I care. Whatever makes you happy.

I'd like to know how much of an accident this was. A towel slip? Or did she just not think the kids would be freaked?
DreamingNaiad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2012, 05:31 AM   #190
Stomatopoda
Muse
 
Stomatopoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 920
Sex = biology. Gender and preference = sociology/psychology.

The former is chromosomal and does not change, no matter your mental or surgical state. A male identifying and living as a woman is a woman but is not female and never will be.
Stomatopoda is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2012, 07:52 AM   #191
Rairun
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 506
Sex = biology is a lot more complicated than it seems at first sight. Saying there are males, females and a tiny inter-sex population kind of obfuscates the issue.

Non-transgender women with XY chromosomes exist. When indifferent gonads don't differentiate into testes, the fetus becomes a perfectly developed woman (with a vagina, uterus, fallopian tubes, etc) except for her ovaries. This usually goes completely undetected until people realize the girl hasn't hit puberty. Then, with hormonal therapy, she develops as normal. She may even become pregnant with an embryo transfer. She is just a normal woman with no ovaries. XX women can be women with no ovaries too.

This proves that what makes someone a woman (in terms of sex - let's forget gender for a minute) isn't her chromosomes. It's her morphology. But the moment you define sex in terms of morphology, you open a huge can of worms. Is a infertile woman still a woman? I believe everyone would say yes. But is a woman who lost all her reproductive organs still a woman? Is a woman without reproductive organs or secondary sexual characteristics still a woman? Where do you draw the line here?

My point is that wherever you draw the line, it is arbitrary. Some people act as if "male" and "female" were some sort of platonic ideal (as opposed to gender, which they more easily admit to be a social construct). But they are not. Sex, like everything else, is a concept invented by humans to categorize their observations. When you look at those categories closely enough, it becomes apparent that maleness and femaleness aren't intrinsic to anything. They are just vague concepts we superimpose on the world to make it more understandable.

So my question is: why shouldn't we include trans women in the female category (even as pre-op)? There are a few situations where that would be a bad idea (e.g. as a group they have different health care needs); but there are also many situations where it's a lot more practical to categorize them as female. Moreover, there are very important social consequences when it comes to identity.

What worries me the most in this thread is that people grant trans women the status of woman (in gender terms), but then they seek refuge in sex to subtly undermine that status. They concede the battle for the word WOMAN, only to uphold the sanctity of the FEMALE category. Once again, I'm not saying that playing with categories is a bad thing - there'd be nothing wrong with categorizing a trans woman as male if we did this in a very specific context, such as the provision of health care. After all, it's just a word - the group might as well be called ABCD or XYWZ. But the main problem here is that the people who insist on trans women being considered male are exactly the ones who see those categories as intrinsic and very much real.
Rairun is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2012, 07:57 AM   #192
23_Tauri
Illuminator
 
23_Tauri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 4,947
Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
That leaves either non-segregation (which I suspect would go down like a cup of cold sick amongst your average person) ....
You think? I'd be down with it. Like you said gumboot, we really need to get over ourselves. Why are we still so hung up on seeing normal peoples' willies and tits? Seriously?

ETA: in specific situations where there is reason to be momentarily naked, such as adults changing room at the swimming baths, I mean, not generally such as walking down the street.
__________________
Little Miss Witchcraft, she's not made of straw.

Last edited by 23_Tauri; 18th November 2012 at 08:00 AM.
23_Tauri is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2012, 08:11 AM   #193
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Detroit suburbs
Posts: 11,750
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The Northern Europeans are not so bothered. A friend who has run a few marathons in Germany has found communal showers were provided where many of both sexes stripped off.
If I were capable of running a marathon, I might be inclined to strip off with a bunch of mixed sex marathon runners, too.


Americans might be a bit more obsessed with nudity than are Germans, but even in Germany, facilities where exposure is likely still say "Damen" and "Herren". I think the tendency to cover up the boy parts and the girl parts except in sexual situations is pretty universal.

I'm using a pretty broad definition of "sexual situations" there. I'm including situations where one might be inclined to display your own best attributes, or enjoy the viewing of someone else's best attributes. The mixed sex, post marathon, showers are an example of that sort of "sexual situation". Yes, I am asserting that when a bunch of people get naked together after running a marathon, the nudity is all part of the fun. There are a fair number of fine bodies on display, and people will be all very glad to see or be seen in such situations.

At a public pool, with people of all ages, and a cross section of people much more representative of the population at large (no pun intended), I think people would prefer a little bit more coverage, regardless of their culture.
__________________
Dave

On vacation.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2012, 08:12 AM   #194
DreamingNaiad
Muse
 
DreamingNaiad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: The forgotten sweet abyss
Posts: 519
True, Rairun. People can have XXX (female), XXY (male) and XYY (male) chromosomes as well IIRC. So it is not clear-cut.

I was talking about people who only have two chromosomes. AFAIK if you only have XY you are physically male. Unless the Y is damaged. The gene for male development can also copy over to the X, leading to XX males.

Some women only have one X (shown as XO).

All of which is completely irrelevant but very interesting

I think people just like to be able to categorise things. And it can be a little annoying when you think you've managed that and suddenly there's another change. People need to get over it.

Last edited by DreamingNaiad; 18th November 2012 at 08:16 AM. Reason: added bit at end
DreamingNaiad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2012, 10:21 AM   #195
mijopaalmc
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,249
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
There are very few people who worry about their small children seeing naked adults or being seen naked by adults. If they are still small enough that they cannot go unaccompanied into a public restroom or locker room, then it probably doesn't matter. That isn't the issue here. The issue is that there's a girl with a penis insisting on hanging out in a place where there are naked women and girls, and that creeps people out a bit.
What ever happened to Colored bathrooms?
mijopaalmc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2012, 10:35 AM   #196
mijopaalmc
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,249
Originally Posted by foxholeatheist View Post
Wha.. ah.. huh? This is basic stuff and I may have missed something but people with male sex organs, barring rare cases of hermaphrodites certainly are not female.

There's a lot of molehill engineering going on here.
"Man" is a marker of gender; "male" is a marker of sex. Gender is socially constructed; sex (for the most part) is not.

By the way, "socially constructed" does not mean "not real"; it means "real by the agreement (of those with power in society)". There are societies with three, four, or five genders, so insisting that your genitalia completely determines your gender in some sort of acultural sense is a bit naive.
mijopaalmc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2012, 10:46 AM   #197
DreamingNaiad
Muse
 
DreamingNaiad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: The forgotten sweet abyss
Posts: 519
Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
"Man" is a marker of gender; "male" is a marker of sex. Gender is socially constructed; sex (for the most part) is not.

By the way, "socially constructed" does not mean "not real"; it means "real by the agreement (of those with power in society)". There are societies with three, four, or five genders, so insisting that your genitalia completely determines your gender in some sort of acultural sense is a bit naive.
Out of curiousity, who has 3/4/5 genders?
DreamingNaiad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2012, 01:36 PM   #198
gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
 
gumboot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 24,676
Originally Posted by 23_Tauri View Post
You think? I'd be down with it. Like you said gumboot, we really need to get over ourselves. Why are we still so hung up on seeing normal peoples' willies and tits? Seriously?

ETA: in specific situations where there is reason to be momentarily naked, such as adults changing room at the swimming baths, I mean, not generally such as walking down the street.

Oh I am 100% in agreement. In fact I'd argue that there would be less issue with sexual assault and body confidence issues if we all changed together. It was the bizarre Victorian idea of locking everyone away in their own private little space that caused the problem in the first place.
__________________

O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde
keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.


A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.
gumboot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2012, 12:52 AM   #199
Scopedog
Critical Thinker
 
Scopedog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 412
With people being diagnosed as transgender at earlier ages these days, which shower/changing room is most appropriate for prepubescent and adolescent transgender people- the one most closely resembling their sex or the one most closely resembling their gender?
Scopedog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2012, 01:07 AM   #200
gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
 
gumboot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 24,676
Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
With people being diagnosed as transgender at earlier ages these days, which shower/changing room is most appropriate for prepubescent and adolescent transgender people- the one most closely resembling their sex or the one most closely resembling their gender?

In this country it's relatively common for children under about 8 or 9 to change with their parent, regardless of sex/gender. It's common enough to see young girls in the men's changing room with their father that I barely notice. People tend to mind their own business in a changing room.
__________________

O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde
keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.


A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.
gumboot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

JREF Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:56 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2001-2013, James Randi Educational Foundation. All Rights Reserved.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.