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Old 18th November 2012, 08:00 AM   #81
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Even with the attempts to reproduce the video, it proves nothing! There is precedence for this kind of alien visitation!

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...They crossed vast reaches of space in a journey lasting thousands of years before reaching their target where they attacked the first planet they encountered, Earth. Due to a terrible miscalculation of scale the entire battle fleet was swallowed by a small dog.*
*Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy -- Douglas Adams
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Old 18th November 2012, 08:02 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by TjW View Post
No, not the angle of travel. The angle of view. For example, GoPro cameras are "wide angle" lenses, and have a wide field of view. Telephoto lenses have a narrow field of view.
Zoom lenses have a variable field of view. You can start with a wide angle shot and "zoom in" so you have a much narrower field of view.

Still, since it's a known location, you could find distant landmarks on the edges of the frame, and use those to get an angle of view.
Okay, so work with both a standard wide angle and a full zoom. I'm flexible.
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Old 18th November 2012, 08:03 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Bell View Post
Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
What's missing?

If it's 10 meters long and cover 50% of the frame in the duration of the frame it has to be going at X speed and be Y distance away from the lens to stay in the frame at that speed.

I think.
Depends on the angle of view of the used lens.

If there are 10m long insects here I think it's time to find another planet


Geometry is just one of the problems. Where there is identifiable terrain in the background, it's possible to use that measure the angular view of the camera. Knowing the angular view of the camera you can estimate the angular size of small objects in that view. It's only an estimate because of the pixel resolution and blurring where out of focus. If the object is moving fast enough to be a streak in the video, you cannot measure it's length.

Most CCDs image the whole frame at once. This is an advantage in that it doesn't distort fast moving objects the way the old imager tubes did. But the integration time that each pixel is open to receiving photons can vary frame to frame depending on how much light there is so the amount of streaking can vary for objects of the same size and moving the same speed.
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Old 18th November 2012, 08:13 AM   #84
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Like I said we don't have enough info.

We have some big ass bugs here in AZ but I think these are flies.
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Old 18th November 2012, 08:31 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
Like I said we don't have enough info.

We have some big ass bugs here in AZ but I think these are flies.
Sorry, but there's enough info to get rough data. Just because we can't come up with perfect number doesn't mean we can't estimate.
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Old 18th November 2012, 08:47 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Sorry, but there's enough info to get rough data. Just because we can't come up with perfect number doesn't mean we can't estimate.

So, why haven't you done the estimate? You don't need perfect data. Just pause the video and make a measurement off your screen. Be sure to document your results so they can be independently verified.
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Old 18th November 2012, 08:55 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
What's missing?

If it's 10 meters long and cover 50% of the frame in the duration of the frame it has to be going at X speed and be Y distance away from the lens to stay in the frame at that speed.

I think.

How can you possibily determine with any accuracy the size of an "object", if you have no idea what that object is?



edit to add..sorry, I thought you were advocating this idea, but apparently you are not...apologies.

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Old 18th November 2012, 09:01 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Dan O. View Post
So, why haven't you done the estimate? You don't need perfect data. Just pause the video and make a measurement off your screen. Be sure to document your results so they can be independently verified.
Because I suck at math. That's why I asked for help.

I'm not sure why this disturbs you, but then I really don't care either.
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Old 18th November 2012, 09:03 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
How can you possibily determine with any accuracy the size of an "object", if you have no idea what that object is?



edit to add..sorry, I thought you were advocating this idea, but apparently you are not...apologies.
No problem. We're getting kinda convoluted in here. Which can be fun.
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Old 18th November 2012, 09:09 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
What do you base that on? The CCD is unpredictable when the object is wildly out of parameters. NSA has this problem, but they don't talk about it much.
How do you know that's an accurate representation of the object being filmed?
You do understand what I'm saying here and not what I'm saying don't you ? If you don't try reading it again
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The two objects have somewhat defined edges resembling a bunch of mylar balloons.
And if you still don't, read it until you do, so you don't to waste time arguing over nothing. GAWD !

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
How do you know that's an accurate representation of the object being filmed?
Because I've seen video stills of out of focus bugs at close range and they look like blobs, that's how I know.
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Old 18th November 2012, 09:10 AM   #91
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Okay then.
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Old 18th November 2012, 09:33 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Because I suck at math. That's why I asked for help.

I'm not sure why this disturbs you, but then I really don't care either.

Who said anything about doing math? That's what computers are for.

The only reason I am interested in this thread is to help others learn to do the science. When the mundain explanations such as birds, known aircraft, insects and rocks have been ruled out then I'll take an interest in the subject itself.
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Old 18th November 2012, 09:36 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Dan O. View Post
Who said anything about doing math? That's what computers are for.

The only reason I am interested in this thread is to help others learn to do the science. When the mundain explanations such as birds, known aircraft, insects and rocks have been ruled out then I'll take an interest in the subject itself.
C'ya then.
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Old 18th November 2012, 01:58 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
You are definitely a subset of "some folks".

Venn coming up.
What a strange reply. Can you explain what point you were tying to make with your first reply to me?
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Old 18th November 2012, 03:05 PM   #95
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Gawdzilla

Lets assume your object that covered 50% of the frame in a single frame has covered 100m of real distance. You have assumed this because you have estimated how far away the object is (directly over the built up area in the distance) and you have used some reference points.

A typical video camera runs at about 25 - 30 frames per second. Some of the more sophisticated ones run at 60 fps, but we'll use 30 fps

In a frame, the object has moved 100 metres. At 30 fps, a single frame is 1/30th of a second long so object has moved 100m in that time Its speed would be( 30 x 100) m/s = 3000 m/s, which is 10,800 k.p.h.

This is waaaayyy over hypersonic. There would be sonic booms heard and compression waves felt all over town.

Now lets say that you totally misjudged the distance. The object is in fact only a few feet away, and it and it only moved 10 cm in half a frame.

The calculation is then (30 x 0.1) m/s = 3 m/s, which is 10.8 k.p.h

A fly has a typical speed of 5 to 15 k.p.h, so 10.8 falls nicely in the right range for a fly. So, what is the object more likely to be, a UFO travelling at mach 9, or a fly travelling at 11 kph?
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Old 18th November 2012, 03:11 PM   #96
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Even NICAP is on the bug bandwagon..

Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
Like I said we don't have enough info.

We have some big ass bugs here in AZ but I think these are flies.
I emailed NICAP today about this case,and got an answer the same day! NICAP seems to subscribe to the insect theory,although he isn't aware of anybody looking into it.Here's his email reply to me:

"I don't know if anyone is pursuing the issue.



However, the objects appear to me to probably be insects in flight. One
would have to set up two synchronized cameras to investigate that
possibility.



Thanks for your interest.



Cordially,



Peter Davenport, Director

National UFO Reporting Center"
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Old 18th November 2012, 03:18 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Gawdzilla

Lets assume your object that covered 50% of the frame in a single frame has covered 100m of real distance. You have assumed this because you have estimated how far away the object is (directly over the built up area in the distance) and you have used some reference points.

A typical video camera runs at about 25 - 30 frames per second. Some of the more sophisticated ones run at 60 fps, but we'll use 30 fps

In a frame, the object has moved 100 metres. At 30 fps, a single frame is 1/30th of a second long and its half a frame therefore in 1/60th of a second the object have moved 100m therefore its speed would be 60 x 100 m/s = 6000 m/s, which is 21,600 k.p.h.

This is waaaayyy over hypersonic. There would be sonic booms heard and compression waves felt all over town.
Thanks, that's the kind of math I'm hopeless at.
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Old 18th November 2012, 03:47 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Thanks, that's the kind of math I'm hopeless at.

I made a couple of corrections to my original post because I made false assumptions.

However, it still shows how ridiculous the idea was that these were UFOs over the town in the distance.
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Old 18th November 2012, 04:54 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I made a couple of corrections to my original post because I made false assumptions.
Way to keep it real.
Quote:
However, it still shows how ridiculous the idea was that these were UFOs over the town in the distance.
I've watched jets come in from a distance, and paid great attention to their course, under the assumption that some damn fool had gotten two grid references reversed. (Blue-on-blue, it's called.) I was impressed at how slow "fast movers" looked when they were far away.
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Old 18th November 2012, 05:16 PM   #100
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Videos like this piss me off because we don't have any clarity or details. Why can't somebody invent a super powerful video camera with great zoom? Can't we develop that kind of tech yet? One clear shot of the object would answer a lot of questions.
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Old 18th November 2012, 05:43 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by FoxM86 View Post
Videos like this piss me off because we don't have any clarity or details. Why can't somebody invent a super powerful video camera with great zoom? Can't we develop that kind of tech yet? One clear shot of the object would answer a lot of questions.
I sure they can, and in fact have done so.

The problem, however, is that Joe Consumer doesn't want to pay the quarter of a million dollar price tag for it when he can buy a Toshibishi, that will happily do everything he wants i.e. take great video of the wife, kids and dogs, for $350 down at the local Wal-Mart.
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Old 18th November 2012, 05:46 PM   #102
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There are cameras that can read your license plates from 200 miles up. I don't own one.
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Old 18th November 2012, 05:47 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
There are cameras that can read your license plates from 200 miles up. I don't own one.
I used to, but my house was only two storeys tall so the images were really blurry.
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Old 18th November 2012, 07:42 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Sorry, but there's enough info to get rough data. Just because we can't come up with perfect number doesn't mean we can't estimate.
True and I see that others have with shocking results. However you have to make a lot of estimates and it seems rather silly when there is no evidence that this is anything other than bugs and I already know how big those are.
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Old 18th November 2012, 10:30 PM   #105
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A meme in response to a comment made by Mrs. Hemmat

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Old 18th November 2012, 11:22 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
True and I see that others have with shocking results. However you have to make a lot of estimates and it seems rather silly when there is no evidence that this is anything other than bugs and I already know how big those are.
I think a ball park figure is all that was needed. If you can show that these objects, if they are over the city, have to be flying at thousands of kph, you can pretty well shut the gate on the UFO theory.
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Old 19th November 2012, 04:09 AM   #107
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People routinely hand track and film airliners from many miles away. Airliners that are traveling close to the speed of sound.

We also routinely see these airliners from such distances.

They do not appear to flit across our field of view in a second or two. They are not traveling so fast that a person with a camera/telescope can't track them.

Imagine a 747 cruising by in the distance at the same time as these UFOs appear. It would take relatively forever to cross the camera's field of view compared to these UFO's.
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Old 19th November 2012, 04:36 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
True and I see that others have with shocking results. However you have to make a lot of estimates and it seems rather silly when there is no evidence that this is anything other than bugs and I already know how big those are.
My point was to show that if it was anything but bugs there would have be some tremendous speeds involved, and that such speeds would draw attention to themselves in ways other than just visual. Perhaps you've seen the Mythbuster episode where they test what happens to a house when a supersonic aircraft passes near?
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Old 19th November 2012, 04:38 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I think a ball park figure is all that was needed. If you can show that these objects, if they are over the city, have to be flying at thousands of kph, you can pretty well shut the gate on the UFO theory.
Yep, 21,000 kph or 20,000 kph, not a big difference.
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Old 19th November 2012, 07:12 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
My point was to show that if it was anything but bugs there would have be some tremendous speeds involved, and that such speeds would draw attention to themselves in ways other than just visual. Perhaps you've seen the Mythbuster episode where they test what happens to a house when a supersonic aircraft passes near?
Difficult as it may be to believe, I think you're underestimating the rationalizing-away power of the True UFO Believer.

Clearly, if aliens have technology so advanced that they can travel this fast, they also have technology that can suppress sonic booms.
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Old 19th November 2012, 08:12 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by TjW View Post
Difficult as it may be to believe, I think you're underestimating the rationalizing-away power of the True UFO Believer.
Remember, my specialty is Pearl Harbor Conspiracy Theories. I give no points to CTers of any type, including UFOnutz. I just like to have things to help the fence-sitters make up their minds.
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Clearly, if aliens have technology so advanced that they can travel this fast, they also have technology that can suppress sonic booms.
They showed up on camera, so I give them nothing for stealth tech.
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Old 19th November 2012, 12:44 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Remember, my specialty is Pearl Harbor Conspiracy Theories. I give no points to CTers of any type, including UFOnutz. I just like to have things to help the fence-sitters make up their minds.

They showed up on camera, so I give them nothing for stealth tech.
It's a variation on the incredibly powerful conspiracy willing to stop at nothing to keep the conspiracy from being disclosed that nevertheless leaves obvious clues that there is a conspiracy.

I'm pretty sure you're familiar with that one.
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Old 19th November 2012, 12:58 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
What a strange reply. Can you explain what point you were tying to make with your first reply to me?
I'll take your ignoring of this question to mean that you didn't actually have a point to make, then.
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Old 19th November 2012, 01:01 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by TjW View Post
It's a variation on the incredibly powerful conspiracy willing to stop at nothing to keep the conspiracy from being disclosed that nevertheless leaves obvious clues that there is a conspiracy.

I'm pretty sure you're familiar with that one.
Oh, very. Smoking guns, they love. Fatal flaws to their pet theories, they can't even see them.

The problem is, of course, that the event in question is only the means by which they carry out their primary goal, to slander a person or group. So it doesn't matter if the theory looks like Vimy Ridge, totally shot to pieces, because they believe they have it "out there" and some poor fool will believe it.
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Old 19th November 2012, 03:22 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by TjW View Post
Difficult as it may be to believe, I think you're underestimating the rationalizing-away power of the True UFO Believer.

Clearly, if aliens have technology so advanced that they can travel this fast, they also have technology that can suppress sonic booms.

Suppressing sonic booms aye? Yeah, right!


"Y'cannae change th' Laws o' Physics"

-- Lt. Cdr. Montgomery Scott
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Old 19th November 2012, 03:30 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by TjW View Post
It's a variation on the incredibly powerful conspiracy willing to stop at nothing to keep the conspiracy from being disclosed that nevertheless leaves obvious clues that there is a conspiracy.

I'm pretty sure you're familiar with that one.
A well known Philosopher (Stafford Beer?) once said "If our brains were so simple that we could understand them, we would be so simple that we couldn't"

I think this could be applied to conspiracies.

If a conspiracy leaves no clues, then we wouldn't know about it; if it does leave clues, then its probably not a conspiracy.
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Old 20th November 2012, 04:00 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Suppressing sonic booms aye? Yeah, right!


"Y'cannae change th' Laws o' Physics"

-- Lt. Cdr. Montgomery Scott
Yeah, I love that one. "They can travel so fast in the atmosphere because they have a deus ex machina installed on their craft." The speaker mispronounced the term and didn't know it was a literary device until I showed it to her in Wiki.
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Old 20th November 2012, 06:55 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Yeah, I love that one. "They can travel so fast in the atmosphere because they have a deus ex machina installed on their craft." The speaker mispronounced the term and didn't know it was a literary device until I showed it to her in Wiki.
Lil' deus ex coupe...
You don't know what I got.
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Old 20th November 2012, 06:57 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Suppressing sonic booms aye? Yeah, right!


"Y'cannae change th' Laws o' Physics"

-- Lt. Cdr. Montgomery Scott
A ufologist posting here argued that very point. They drag the air along with them. Or something.
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Old 20th November 2012, 07:33 AM   #120
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Some on-site investigation

We have done some work at the location of the "UFO" video, here is a report of our findings (sorry no little green men)

www.rockymountainparanormal.com/foxufo
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