White guy shoots (and kills) black teen over loud music - Page 2

anglolawyer · 28th November 2012, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

Damn, I was guessing.

Yeah, but subtract all the kids and the old folk in the retirement homes and add in all the illegal guns and you're probably back in business.

anglolawyer · 28th November 2012, 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by FenerFan

Here's a link to a extended news report from a local Jacksonville station. It has a few details that weren't mentioned in the other linked articles. The gun Dunn claimed to have seen was a shotgun. Also, Dunn's lawyer said he didn't call the police because, "His understanding was that he had only shot at the vehicle, not at anybody and that he was also concerned with leaving the area immediately because he didn't know if these were gang members..." according to his lawyer Robin Lemonidis.
Also, she claims that Dunn was "in the process of turning himself in," when he was arrested at his home. The distance from Jacksonville to his hometown of Satellite Beach is about 175 miles.
It's a pretty complete report as things stand now.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/Lawyer-...w/-/index.html

What do you think about his lawyer? To me, she does not come across very well at all. Not a good idea to mention her client has used and owned since he was in the third grade, in my opinion. She stressed his knowledge of guns, maybe to bolster the claim that he saw a shotgun. On the other hand, some would see him as a over-reactive gun nut.
It doesn't seem good for Dunn as no shotgun or other weapon has been found. Also, it seems ridiculous to me that someone would claim they didn't call the police because ,"Hey, I only shot at a car...with people in it...not at the people, just the car." I can see being scared and wanting to get out of the area because maybe of possible gang involvement. Fine, you feel safe in another location and now you can call the cops. A knowledgable gun owner (as apparently Dunn is, according to his attorney) would have to know the seriousness of shooting 8 or 9 times at a vehicle in a gas station parking lot.

Watched that. Interesting. Mind-boggling to a Brit, actually. Basically everything goes pretty quiet here until trial, which is kinda frustrating but probably for the best.

Did you notice the part where it turns out he got his gun out of the glove box? The guest prosecutor on the three-way chat at the end says he not only got his gun out but also loaded it. Not sure where he got the last part from, might have to listen again, but it seems hardly consistent with being in fear from someone waving a shotgun that you would have the time to retrieve your weapon from the glove box and load it. Surely the thing to do is duck below the window and gun it (i.e. the motor) taking out half the gas station (or whatever it was) and smashing head-on into a lamp post. That's what I would do anyway.

Yeggster · 28th November 2012, 07:27 AM

I have a 250 watt Boston Acoustics sound system in my Jeep, I pay it VERY loud on occasion (some times even putting earplugs in) the base is therapeutic .. seriously, if anyone asks me to turn it down I do so, and apologize. So far I didn't get shot

I live down town (albeit in small city) in the worst part of town, I have never asked anyone to turn down their music, .... more then once I have however (not joking) had teenagers knock on my house door and ask me to turn the music down. The irony is so amusing I (again) apologize and keep the volume lower.

Oh and it's cool music too like Green Day

anglolawyer · 28th November 2012, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by Yeggster

I have a 250 watt Boston Acoustics sound system in my Jeep, I pay it VERY loud on occasion (some times even putting earplugs in) the base is therapeutic .. seriously, if anyone asks me to turn it down I do so, and apologize. So far I didn't get shot

I live down town (albeit in small city) in the worst part of town, I have never asked anyone to turn down their music, .... more then once I have however (not joking) had teenagers knock on my house door and ask me to turn the music down. The irony is so amusing I (again) apologize and keep the volume lower.

Oh and it's cool music too like Green Day

Went to the Noting Hill carnival once and walked past house after house each with its own ear-shattering sound system. Thing was, when you were in front of one house you could only hear that house's system and then when you walked a few paces on you could only hear the next one etc. So I guess you don;t ask people to turn down their music because you can't hear it and they mostly can't hear yours. Sounds like the best solution would be if you ditch the guns and all got a totally nerve-shredding system.

Checkmite · 28th November 2012, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by FenerFan

http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/state/j...usic-complaint

Dunn is claiming self-defense. He stated that he saw a gun barrel and was verbally threatened. Also, he fled the scene because he feared that those he shot at were gang members and other gang members would show up. Dunn and his girlfriend then spent the night at a local hotel. He was later arrested at his home.

So yes, he's a racist. Unless someone thinks they can come up with an objective, non-racist explanation for what made this fellow think those he shot at were "in a gang" besides "bunch of blacks in a car listening to loud music".

FenerFan · 28th November 2012, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by anglolawyer

Watched that. Interesting. Mind-boggling to a Brit, actually. Basically everything goes pretty quiet here until trial, which is kinda frustrating but probably for the best.

Did you notice the part where it turns out he got his gun out of the glove box? The guest prosecutor on the three-way chat at the end says he not only got his gun out but also loaded it. Not sure where he got the last part from, might have to listen again, but it seems hardly consistent with being in fear from someone waving a shotgun that you would have the time to retrieve your weapon from the glove box and load it. Surely the thing to do is duck below the window and gun it (i.e. the motor) taking out half the gas station (or whatever it was) and smashing head-on into a lamp post. That's what I would do anyway.

Good point about loading the weapon.
One thing about Dunn I want to add. He is the owner of a software company.
Not to stereotype, but I would think that, generally, software developers are not typically gung-ho, stick out your chest, " better not say nothin' to me" types.
I am wondering how much effect, if any, alcohol was on the situation. He was returning from his son's wedding and it would not be unusual for drinking to occur at such an event. (Too bad for the son,huh, the wedding anniversaries are going to be a little awkward for a while.)

Wanted to add this from another Jacksonville station.

http://www.actionnewsjax.com/content...qwaOt9_QQ.cspx

Interesting to me is this quote from his lawyer, ""They were blasting some rap music and he said, he rolled down his window, he pulled up on the passenger side, and rolled down his window and said, would you mind turning that down? And said it very politely."

Okay, the music is really loud, why roll down your window and say something? Just let it go. If you are at a gas station for a couple of minutes who gives a damn. In another link I posted, his lawyer said that Dunn left after the shooting because he was scared. She made a comment about Dunn being in a city he didn't know.
Jacksonville is a very large city and does have some dangerous, high crime areas. If you are unsure about the type of area you are in, why the hell would you roll down your window and make a comment, polite or not, to black male youths sitting in an SUV listening to really loud rap music.
His lawyer needs to shut up because she is doing him no favors.
Looking at the shooting location (Baymeadows Rd. and Southside Blvd. in Jacksonville) on satellite it isn't hard to tell that this ain't the hood. I don't know Jacksonville well, but it looks like a very nice area. Lots of homes with pools and big yards. Relevant?

Neutiquam Erro · 28th November 2012, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by FenerFan

Not to stereotype, but I would think that, generally, software developers are not typically gung-ho, stick out your chest, " better not say nothin' to me" types.

My experience differs. Not universally, but I've worked with software developers my whole career, and Bluster is not an uncommon attribute.

Also, this guy:

Checkmite · 28th November 2012, 09:49 AM

I suppose nobody could fault him for immediately fleeing the scene if he was shooting back because they were aiming a weapon at him and he feared immediate retaliation from them and their weapon(s); but that's not what his lawyer's arguing.

And in addition, nothing the lawyer has said has explained why he couldn't call the police from his hotel room. He felt safe enough there to sleep. If it really was because he thought nobody had been hurt and that merely shooting up another car at a gas station was no big deal, why didn't he call the police the next morning when, according to his own lawyer, he saw on the news that someone had been killed in the incident?

And just what kind of moron did this guy hire for a counselor anyway? I haven't seen a lawyer working so hard to get his client convicted since the Jerry Sandusky case.

PetersCreek · 28th November 2012, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

I think giving Americans more guns is going to make bugger all difference. There's already more than two each and they can only hold, at most two at once (although, I'm open to correction on that front).

While I have more than my two hands can hold, I prefer to keep both hands on one at a time. I leave the double-gun fancy crap to trick shooters, certain Old West re-enactors, Hollywood pretend action heroes...and fools (shooter and non-shooter alike) who think the latter reflects gun use in real life.

As for the shooter; barring evidence that this was a justifiable, defensive shooting, the story so far leads me to believe this guy is a criminal and an idiot.

lobosrul · 28th November 2012, 10:11 AM

Both news articles linked say the SUV was searched for weapons and none were found. I'd like to know where and when it was searched. Was it the next day? Or did police respond at the scene right after the shooting. Plus the gas station likely had surveillance video. If it can be shown no one left the vehicle with a shotgun, and the police found no weapon, then its game over for this guy. Shooting up a vehicle because you think you saw a weapon isn't even remotely justifiable.

Also the lawyer claims his client heard the kids in the SUV threaten him. If the music was so loud, how did he hear them?

Checkmite · 28th November 2012, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul

Also the lawyer claims his client heard the kids in the SUV threaten him. If the music was so loud, how did he hear them?

He claims that after the initial request, the music was turned off, until somebody in the back seat complained, after which it was turned back on, and louder. It was allegedly during this off-time that he heard the threats.

Skeptic Ginger · 28th November 2012, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad

I don't think race had anything to do with it. But on the face of it this seems quite similar to the Trayvon case. Idiot initiates situation then claims he was tewwified and had to start shooting.

All he had to do was drive away. Or keep his mouth shut in the first place.

So you think 4 white kids in a car would have seemed the same to this guy? I think it's possible race played a small role.

Skeptic Ginger · 28th November 2012, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul

Both news articles linked say the SUV was searched for weapons and none were found. I'd like to know where and when it was searched. Was it the next day? Or did police respond at the scene right after the shooting. Plus the gas station likely had surveillance video. If it can be shown no one left the vehicle with a shotgun, and the police found no weapon, then its game over for this guy. Shooting up a vehicle because you think you saw a weapon isn't even remotely justifiable.

Also the lawyer claims his client heard the kids in the SUV threaten him. If the music was so loud, how did he hear them?

A kid was fatally shot. I doubt the car was searched "the next day".

And there would have likely been witnesses around who would have seen someone take a shotgun away from the scene.

mikedenk · 28th November 2012, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

So yes, he's a racist. Unless someone thinks they can come up with an objective, non-racist explanation for what made this fellow think those he shot at were "in a gang" besides "bunch of blacks in a car listening to loud music".

"They told me: "Don't mess with us, we're Crips. In case you were wondering, the Crips are a violent criminal gang, populated primarily by African-Americans like us. And we are definitely full members of that gang, the Crips." Then when they pulled out their guns, I noticed that they had C-R-I-P tattooed across their fingers. Also, their car had a vanity plate, "CRIPS4LIFE". It was very scary."

lobosrul · 28th November 2012, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

A kid was fatally shot. I doubt the car was searched "the next day".

And there would have likely been witnesses around who would have seen someone take a shotgun away from the scene.

I guess I should rephrase: Did they stay there after the shooting until police arrived, or did they "peel-out" and flee the scene. Which is a perfectly valid response to being shot at multiple times, but a search afterwards doesn't prove much.

Redtail · 28th November 2012, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by mikedenk

"They told me: "Don't mess with us, we're Crips. In case you were wondering, the Crips are a violent criminal gang, populated primarily by African-Americans like us. And we are definitely full members of that gang, the Crips." Then when they pulled out their guns, I noticed that they had C-R-I-P tattooed across their fingers. Also, their car had a vanity plate, "CRIPS4LIFE". It was very scary."

... What?

AlBell · 28th November 2012, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by anglolawyer

Not racist? LOL

Hey! Great idea. Give Americans more guns!

http://finance.townhall.com/columnis..._to_less_crime

Quote:

In previous posts, I’ve discussed this slanted AP story on poverty, the Brian Ross Tea Party slur, this example of implicit bias by USA Today, and a Reuters report on job creation and so-called stimulus.

And I’ve also commented on a Washington Post story that turned a spending cut molehill into a “spending slash” mountain, a silly assertion in the New York Times that education spending has been reduced, and a Washington post claim that Germany is fiscally conservative.

The latest example comes from the Associated Press, which is mystified that crime is falling “despite” record firearm sales.

The AP, and Brits.

AP link:
http://www.dailypress.com/news/break...,0,5325773.sto

DreamingNaiad · 28th November 2012, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

So you think 4 white kids in a car would have seemed the same to this guy? I think it's possible race played a small role.

I hadn't seen anything about him thinking they might be in a gang at that point. The second he came out with that it became racist. Although perhaps he thinks all young people are in gangs. Or he lost his temper and is trying to fling enough mud around to make himself look better/like the victim.

Nessie · 28th November 2012, 10:52 AM

This appears likely to be another entry on my spurious reasons people have claimed self defence and killed. But as yet there is not yet enough information to be certain of that.

anglolawyer · 28th November 2012, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

A kid was fatally shot. I doubt the car was searched "the next day".

And there would have likely been witnesses around who would have seen someone take a shotgun away from the scene.

Plus - just what would be the point of a search the next day? The lawyer is accusing the cops of not carrying out a thorough search (not a late one). Good luck with that.

Redtail · 28th November 2012, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by FenerFan

Good point about loading the weapon.
One thing about Dunn I want to add. He is the owner of a software company.
Not to stereotype, but I would think that, generally, software developers are not typically gung-ho, stick out your chest, " better not say nothin' to me" types.
I am wondering how much effect, if any, alcohol was on the situation. He was returning from his son's wedding and it would not be unusual for drinking to occur at such an event. (Too bad for the son,huh, the wedding anniversaries are going to be a little awkward for a while.)

Wanted to add this from another Jacksonville station.

http://www.actionnewsjax.com/content...qwaOt9_QQ.cspx

Interesting to me is this quote from his lawyer, ""They were blasting some rap music and he said, he rolled down his window, he pulled up on the passenger side, and rolled down his window and said, would you mind turning that down? And said it very politely."

Okay, the music is really loud, why roll down your window and say something? Just let it go. If you are at a gas station for a couple of minutes who gives a damn. In another link I posted, his lawyer said that Dunn left after the shooting because he was scared. She made a comment about Dunn being in a city he didn't know.
Jacksonville is a very large city and does have some dangerous, high crime areas. If you are unsure about the type of area you are in, why the hell would you roll down your window and make a comment, polite or not, to black male youths sitting in an SUV listening to really loud rap music.
His lawyer needs to shut up because she is doing him no favors.
Looking at the shooting location (Baymeadows Rd. and Southside Blvd. in Jacksonville) on satellite it isn't hard to tell that this ain't the hood. I don't know Jacksonville well, but it looks like a very nice area. Lots of homes with pools and big yards. Relevant?

When I was in FL, Baymeadows & South Side was known as an area where crips hung out, but they were known false flaggers.

ETA: False flagger = wannabe.

FenerFan · 28th November 2012, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Neutiquam Erro

My experience differs. Not universally, but I've worked with software developers my whole career, and Bluster is not an uncommon attribute.

Also, this guy:

http://imageshack.us/a/img838/9379/mcafeeg.jpg

I stand corrected. Thinking about it more, as the head of his own company he probably does have some degree of bluster, at least professionally.

Virus · 28th November 2012, 11:54 AM

Did these guys look like the sons Obama never had? Will there be a march of lefties playing loud music?

bookworm · 28th November 2012, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Virus

Did these guys look like the sons Obama never had? Will there be a march of lefties playing loud music?

I DID think the kid in the picture kind of looked like Trayvon.......

Neutiquam Erro · 28th November 2012, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Virus

Did these guys look like the sons Obama never had? Will there be a march of lefties playing loud music?

I'll never understand why that remark strikes some people as scandalous.

Polaris · 28th November 2012, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Ferguson

It's not about enjoyment, it's about showing off how loud (and by implication, how expensive) your audio system is.

I submit it's bordering on a form of violence. "I'm making this so goddamn loud that you're going to hear it and you don't have any choice in the matter!"

jbjr · 28th November 2012, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by mikedenk

"They told me: "Don't mess with us, we're Crips. In case you were wondering, the Crips are a violent criminal gang, populated primarily by African-Americans like us. And we are definitely full members of that gang, the Crips." Then when they pulled out their guns, I noticed that they had C-R-I-P tattooed across their fingers. Also, their car had a vanity plate, "CRIPS4LIFE". It was very scary."

Can you provide a link for that? I haven't heard that anywhere in the news reports and i googled your quote and only saw this thread in the results.

The quote seems a little odd (why describe the gang and their affiliation in that way) but it should be pretty easy to verify. The license plate is pretty specific and so is his description of the tattoo.

triforcharity · 28th November 2012, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by BStrong

I don't know anymore about this incident than anybody else that has read the news reports, but from my training and experience there can be individual incidents involving the use of force by a civilian where leaving the scene of a shooting incident and immediately contacting LE may be the best idea from the standpoint of de escalating a situation that has already turned lethal.

This incident and the behavior of the shooter as reported doesn't fit into that narrow parameter.

I agree. If the situation was still very volatile, I would also leave, but I would be on the phone with 911 as I left the parking lot, or very soon thereafter.

The whole situation doesn't pass my smell test.

triforcharity · 28th November 2012, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Aepervius

{my snipp}

And 8 to 9 shots. Woot. How long does it takes to shoot so many ? Did he have a semi automatic ?

I would assume he had a semi-automatic. There are some revolvers that hold that many, but they're not common for self defense purposes, due to their size and weight.

And 8-9 shots can be very quick. I have a 9mm Sig with a 12 round magazine, and I can empty it in 5-6 seconds.

johnny karate · 28th November 2012, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Virus

Did these guys look like the sons Obama never had? Will there be a march of lefties playing loud music?

Yeah, stupid lefties and their misplaced compassion and outrage. When will they get it through their stupid leftie skulls that in a free country sometimes black children are murdered by racist idiots? It's just the price of doing business.

triforcharity · 28th November 2012, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm

At which time they will unfortunately have to turn up the volume even more.

Huh? Couldn't hear you.....

triforcharity · 28th November 2012, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by anglolawyer

Watched that. Interesting. Mind-boggling to a Brit, actually. Basically everything goes pretty quiet here until trial, which is kinda frustrating but probably for the best.

Did you notice the part where it turns out he got his gun out of the glove box? The guest prosecutor on the three-way chat at the end says he not only got his gun out but also loaded it. Not sure where he got the last part from, might have to listen again, but it seems hardly consistent with being in fear from someone waving a shotgun that you would have the time to retrieve your weapon from the glove box and load it. Surely the thing to do is duck below the window and gun it (i.e. the motor) taking out half the gas station (or whatever it was) and smashing head-on into a lamp post. That's what I would do anyway.

I'm not sure how well versed in firearms you are, but I can take a completely unloaded weapon, and a full magazine, and load it in under 1.5 seconds, for most weapons.

Most handguns have what's called a "slide lock" or a "lock back" that will lock the slide back on the weapon, and once you've locked the magazine in place, all it takes is a pull of a lever and it's loaded and cocked, ready to fire that round.

But, I don't know what steps he had to go through to load his weapon, as I don't have that info.

Yeggster · 28th November 2012, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Aepervius

...... And 8 to 9 shots. Woot. How long does it takes to shoot so many ? Did he have a semi automatic ?

The world record for 8 shots is one second (yes 1 single second)

truethat · 28th November 2012, 01:37 PM

Sounds to me like he wanted to give the gang members a taste of their own medicine and thought he'd get away with it. Even if he fled the scene, he had to know there was a possibility that he had hit someone.

triforcharity · 28th November 2012, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

This appears likely to be another entry on my spurious reasons people have claimed self defence and killed. But as yet there is not yet enough information to be certain of that.

And note that none of the other Americans that have posted in this article, are calling this a justified shooting or anything of the sort.

anglolawyer · 28th November 2012, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by triforcharity

I'm not sure how well versed in firearms you are, but I can take a completely unloaded weapon, and a full magazine, and load it in under 1.5 seconds, for most weapons.

Most handguns have what's called a "slide lock" or a "lock back" that will lock the slide back on the weapon, and once you've locked the magazine in place, all it takes is a pull of a lever and it's loaded and cocked, ready to fire that round.

But, I don't know what steps he had to go through to load his weapon, as I don't have that info.

I'm a Brit. I have never held a gun in my life. Do we know the make of weapon?

triforcharity · 28th November 2012, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by anglolawyer

I'm a Brit. I have never held a gun in my life. Do we know the make of weapon?

Never? It's actually quite fun, IMO. I've shot guns from the 17th Century, to the newest and latest technology. By far the most interesting are the ones from the early 1900's. Reliable, well made, and a ton of fun.

I haven't seen the make or model or the weapon noted as of yet, but since this is fairly local to me (Sat. Beach is literally 5 minutes from my house) and Jax is about 2-3 hours. If I see anything, I'll make note of it, and that will help understand how he was able to load fairly quickly.

anglolawyer · 28th November 2012, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by triforcharity

Never? It's actually quite fun, IMO. I've shot guns from the 17th Century, to the newest and latest technology. By far the most interesting are the ones from the early 1900's. Reliable, well made, and a ton of fun.

I haven't seen the make or model or the weapon noted as of yet, but since this is fairly local to me (Sat. Beach is literally 5 minutes from my house) and Jax is about 2-3 hours. If I see anything, I'll make note of it, and that will help understand how he was able to load fairly quickly.

That would be interesting.

Maybe an air rifle - once.

leftysergeant · 28th November 2012, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by anglolawyer

Yeah, but subtract all the kids and the old folk in the retirement homes and add in all the illegal guns and you're probably back in business.

Those guns are not all in the hands of different individuals.

I now have 21 in 19 different calibers.

leftysergeant · 28th November 2012, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by triforcharity

I would assume he had a semi-automatic. There are some revolvers that hold that many, but they're not common for self defense purposes, due to their size and weight.

And 8-9 shots can be very quick. I have a 9mm Sig with a 12 round magazine, and I can empty it in 5-6 seconds.

Probably a semi-auto. The only modern 9-round wheel guns I have seen are in .22lr. I can fire all nine in my N.E.F. R29 in about twelve seconds (firing single-action) but I do not see a macho man like Dunn carrying something that small.

That he had to get it out of the glove box tells me that he knew damned well they weren't armed. You could start your car and be down the road in the time that takes. You have time to get shot in the back at point-blank range going into your glove box.

He's an idiot and a murderer and belongs in jail for the rest of his life.

28th November 2012, 07:27 AM	#43
Yeggster Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2009 Location: Orillia, Ontario, Canada Posts: 460	I have a 250 watt Boston Acoustics sound system in my Jeep, I pay it VERY loud on occasion (some times even putting earplugs in) the base is therapeutic .. seriously, if anyone asks me to turn it down I do so, and apologize. So far I didn't get shot I live down town (albeit in small city) in the worst part of town, I have never asked anyone to turn down their music, .... more then once I have however (not joking) had teenagers knock on my house door and ask me to turn the music down. The irony is so amusing I (again) apologize and keep the volume lower. Oh and it's cool music too like Green Day
	__________________ "Yeah. Surprise,surprise! Brains instead of Bombs." :Gulliver Foyle

28th November 2012, 08:14 AM	#46
FenerFan Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Istanbul...again Posts: 1,590	Originally Posted by anglolawyer Watched that. Interesting. Mind-boggling to a Brit, actually. Basically everything goes pretty quiet here until trial, which is kinda frustrating but probably for the best. Did you notice the part where it turns out he got his gun out of the glove box? The guest prosecutor on the three-way chat at the end says he not only got his gun out but also loaded it. Not sure where he got the last part from, might have to listen again, but it seems hardly consistent with being in fear from someone waving a shotgun that you would have the time to retrieve your weapon from the glove box and load it. Surely the thing to do is duck below the window and gun it (i.e. the motor) taking out half the gas station (or whatever it was) and smashing head-on into a lamp post. That's what I would do anyway. Good point about loading the weapon. One thing about Dunn I want to add. He is the owner of a software company. Not to stereotype, but I would think that, generally, software developers are not typically gung-ho, stick out your chest, " better not say nothin' to me" types. I am wondering how much effect, if any, alcohol was on the situation. He was returning from his son's wedding and it would not be unusual for drinking to occur at such an event. (Too bad for the son,huh, the wedding anniversaries are going to be a little awkward for a while.) Wanted to add this from another Jacksonville station. http://www.actionnewsjax.com/content...qwaOt9_QQ.cspx Interesting to me is this quote from his lawyer, ""They were blasting some rap music and he said, he rolled down his window, he pulled up on the passenger side, and rolled down his window and said, would you mind turning that down? And said it very politely." Okay, the music is really loud, why roll down your window and say something? Just let it go. If you are at a gas station for a couple of minutes who gives a damn. In another link I posted, his lawyer said that Dunn left after the shooting because he was scared. She made a comment about Dunn being in a city he didn't know. Jacksonville is a very large city and does have some dangerous, high crime areas. If you are unsure about the type of area you are in, why the hell would you roll down your window and make a comment, polite or not, to black male youths sitting in an SUV listening to really loud rap music. His lawyer needs to shut up because she is doing him no favors. Looking at the shooting location (Baymeadows Rd. and Southside Blvd. in Jacksonville) on satellite it isn't hard to tell that this ain't the hood. I don't know Jacksonville well, but it looks like a very nice area. Lots of homes with pools and big yards. Relevant?
	__________________ From there to here From here to there Funny things are everywhere - Dr. Seuss Everything that can happen, does. - Garrett Lisi Last edited by FenerFan; 28th November 2012 at 09:14 AM.

28th November 2012, 09:49 AM	#48
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,879	I suppose nobody could fault him for immediately fleeing the scene if he was shooting back because they were aiming a weapon at him and he feared immediate retaliation from them and their weapon(s); but that's not what his lawyer's arguing. And in addition, nothing the lawyer has said has explained why he couldn't call the police from his hotel room. He felt safe enough there to sleep. If it really was because he thought nobody had been hurt and that merely shooting up another car at a gas station was no big deal, why didn't he call the police the next morning when, according to his own lawyer, he saw on the news that someone had been killed in the incident? And just what kind of moron did this guy hire for a counselor anyway? I haven't seen a lawyer working so hard to get his client convicted since the Jerry Sandusky case.
	Last edited by Checkmite; 28th November 2012 at 09:51 AM.

28th November 2012, 09:55 AM	#49
PetersCreek Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 551	Originally Posted by 3point14 I think giving Americans more guns is going to make bugger all difference. There's already more than two each and they can only hold, at most two at once (although, I'm open to correction on that front). While I have more than my two hands can hold, I prefer to keep both hands on one at a time. I leave the double-gun fancy crap to trick shooters, certain Old West re-enactors, Hollywood pretend action heroes...and fools (shooter and non-shooter alike) who think the latter reflects gun use in real life. As for the shooter; barring evidence that this was a justifiable, defensive shooting, the story so far leads me to believe this guy is a criminal and an idiot.
PetersCreek Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 551

28th November 2012, 10:19 AM	#52
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,536	Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad I don't think race had anything to do with it. But on the face of it this seems quite similar to the Trayvon case. Idiot initiates situation then claims he was tewwified and had to start shooting. All he had to do was drive away. Or keep his mouth shut in the first place. So you think 4 white kids in a car would have seemed the same to this guy? I think it's possible race played a small role.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

28th November 2012, 06:38 AM	#41
anglolawyer Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: surrey, england Posts: 3,197	Originally Posted by 3point14 Damn, I was guessing. Yeah, but subtract all the kids and the old folk in the retirement homes and add in all the illegal guns and you're probably back in business.

28th November 2012, 07:12 AM	#42
anglolawyer Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: surrey, england Posts: 3,197	Originally Posted by FenerFan Here's a link to a extended news report from a local Jacksonville station. It has a few details that weren't mentioned in the other linked articles. The gun Dunn claimed to have seen was a shotgun. Also, Dunn's lawyer said he didn't call the police because, "His understanding was that he had only shot at the vehicle, not at anybody and that he was also concerned with leaving the area immediately because he didn't know if these were gang members..." according to his lawyer Robin Lemonidis. Also, she claims that Dunn was "in the process of turning himself in," when he was arrested at his home. The distance from Jacksonville to his hometown of Satellite Beach is about 175 miles. It's a pretty complete report as things stand now. http://www.news4jax.com/news/Lawyer-...w/-/index.html What do you think about his lawyer? To me, she does not come across very well at all. Not a good idea to mention her client has used and owned since he was in the third grade, in my opinion. She stressed his knowledge of guns, maybe to bolster the claim that he saw a shotgun. On the other hand, some would see him as a over-reactive gun nut. It doesn't seem good for Dunn as no shotgun or other weapon has been found. Also, it seems ridiculous to me that someone would claim they didn't call the police because ,"Hey, I only shot at a car...with people in it...not at the people, just the car." I can see being scared and wanting to get out of the area because maybe of possible gang involvement. Fine, you feel safe in another location and now you can call the cops. A knowledgable gun owner (as apparently Dunn is, according to his attorney) would have to know the seriousness of shooting 8 or 9 times at a vehicle in a gas station parking lot. Watched that. Interesting. Mind-boggling to a Brit, actually. Basically everything goes pretty quiet here until trial, which is kinda frustrating but probably for the best. Did you notice the part where it turns out he got his gun out of the glove box? The guest prosecutor on the three-way chat at the end says he not only got his gun out but also loaded it. Not sure where he got the last part from, might have to listen again, but it seems hardly consistent with being in fear from someone waving a shotgun that you would have the time to retrieve your weapon from the glove box and load it. Surely the thing to do is duck below the window and gun it (i.e. the motor) taking out half the gas station (or whatever it was) and smashing head-on into a lamp post. That's what I would do anyway.

28th November 2012, 08:08 AM	#44
anglolawyer Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: surrey, england Posts: 3,197	Originally Posted by Yeggster I have a 250 watt Boston Acoustics sound system in my Jeep, I pay it VERY loud on occasion (some times even putting earplugs in) the base is therapeutic .. seriously, if anyone asks me to turn it down I do so, and apologize. So far I didn't get shot I live down town (albeit in small city) in the worst part of town, I have never asked anyone to turn down their music, .... more then once I have however (not joking) had teenagers knock on my house door and ask me to turn the music down. The irony is so amusing I (again) apologize and keep the volume lower. Oh and it's cool music too like Green Day Went to the Noting Hill carnival once and walked past house after house each with its own ear-shattering sound system. Thing was, when you were in front of one house you could only hear that house's system and then when you walked a few paces on you could only hear the next one etc. So I guess you don;t ask people to turn down their music because you can't hear it and they mostly can't hear yours. Sounds like the best solution would be if you ditch the guns and all got a totally nerve-shredding system.

28th November 2012, 08:12 AM	#45
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,879	Originally Posted by FenerFan http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/state/j...usic-complaint Dunn is claiming self-defense. He stated that he saw a gun barrel and was verbally threatened. Also, he fled the scene because he feared that those he shot at were gang members and other gang members would show up. Dunn and his girlfriend then spent the night at a local hotel. He was later arrested at his home. So yes, he's a racist. Unless someone thinks they can come up with an objective, non-racist explanation for what made this fellow think those he shot at were "in a gang" besides "bunch of blacks in a car listening to loud music".

28th November 2012, 09:45 AM	#47
Neutiquam Erro mennil-toss flykune Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 286	Originally Posted by FenerFan Not to stereotype, but I would think that, generally, software developers are not typically gung-ho, stick out your chest, " better not say nothin' to me" types. My experience differs. Not universally, but I've worked with software developers my whole career, and Bluster is not an uncommon attribute. Also, this guy:

28th November 2012, 10:11 AM	#50
lobosrul Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 314	Both news articles linked say the SUV was searched for weapons and none were found. I'd like to know where and when it was searched. Was it the next day? Or did police respond at the scene right after the shooting. Plus the gas station likely had surveillance video. If it can be shown no one left the vehicle with a shotgun, and the police found no weapon, then its game over for this guy. Shooting up a vehicle because you think you saw a weapon isn't even remotely justifiable. Also the lawyer claims his client heard the kids in the SUV threaten him. If the music was so loud, how did he hear them?

28th November 2012, 10:18 AM	#51
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,879	Originally Posted by lobosrul Also the lawyer claims his client heard the kids in the SUV threaten him. If the music was so loud, how did he hear them? He claims that after the initial request, the music was turned off, until somebody in the back seat complained, after which it was turned back on, and louder. It was allegedly during this off-time that he heard the threats.

28th November 2012, 10:27 AM	#53
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,536	Originally Posted by lobosrul Both news articles linked say the SUV was searched for weapons and none were found. I'd like to know where and when it was searched. Was it the next day? Or did police respond at the scene right after the shooting. Plus the gas station likely had surveillance video. If it can be shown no one left the vehicle with a shotgun, and the police found no weapon, then its game over for this guy. Shooting up a vehicle because you think you saw a weapon isn't even remotely justifiable. Also the lawyer claims his client heard the kids in the SUV threaten him. If the music was so loud, how did he hear them? A kid was fatally shot. I doubt the car was searched "the next day". And there would have likely been witnesses around who would have seen someone take a shotgun away from the scene.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

28th November 2012, 10:30 AM	#54
mikedenk Muse Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Midsouth, USA Posts: 788	Originally Posted by Checkmite So yes, he's a racist. Unless someone thinks they can come up with an objective, non-racist explanation for what made this fellow think those he shot at were "in a gang" besides "bunch of blacks in a car listening to loud music". "They told me: "Don't mess with us, we're Crips. In case you were wondering, the Crips are a violent criminal gang, populated primarily by African-Americans like us. And we are definitely full members of that gang, the Crips." Then when they pulled out their guns, I noticed that they had C-R-I-P tattooed across their fingers. Also, their car had a vanity plate, "CRIPS4LIFE". It was very scary."

28th November 2012, 10:39 AM	#55
lobosrul Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 314	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger A kid was fatally shot. I doubt the car was searched "the next day". And there would have likely been witnesses around who would have seen someone take a shotgun away from the scene. I guess I should rephrase: Did they stay there after the shooting until police arrived, or did they "peel-out" and flee the scene. Which is a perfectly valid response to being shot at multiple times, but a search afterwards doesn't prove much.

28th November 2012, 10:44 AM	#56
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,304	Originally Posted by mikedenk "They told me: "Don't mess with us, we're Crips. In case you were wondering, the Crips are a violent criminal gang, populated primarily by African-Americans like us. And we are definitely full members of that gang, the Crips." Then when they pulled out their guns, I noticed that they had C-R-I-P tattooed across their fingers. Also, their car had a vanity plate, "CRIPS4LIFE". It was very scary." ... What?
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,304	__________________ AVENGERS!!!.. Turn off the dark!

28th November 2012, 10:47 AM	#57
AlBell Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,490	Originally Posted by anglolawyer Not racist? LOL Hey! Great idea. Give Americans more guns! http://finance.townhall.com/columnis..._to_less_crime Quote: In previous posts, I’ve discussed this slanted AP story on poverty, the Brian Ross Tea Party slur, this example of implicit bias by USA Today, and a Reuters report on job creation and so-called stimulus. And I’ve also commented on a Washington Post story that turned a spending cut molehill into a “spending slash” mountain, a silly assertion in the New York Times that education spending has been reduced, and a Washington post claim that Germany is fiscally conservative. The latest example comes from the *Associated Press, which is mystified* that crime is falling “despite” record firearm sales.** The AP, and Brits. AP link: http://www.dailypress.com/news/break...,0,5325773.sto
AlBell Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,490	Last edited by AlBell; 28th November 2012 at 11:02 AM. Reason: added AP link.

28th November 2012, 10:50 AM	#58
DreamingNaiad Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: The forgotten sweet abyss Posts: 465	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger So you think 4 white kids in a car would have seemed the same to this guy? I think it's possible race played a small role. I hadn't seen anything about him thinking they might be in a gang at that point. The second he came out with that it became racist. Although perhaps he thinks all young people are in gangs. Or he lost his temper and is trying to fling enough mud around to make himself look better/like the victim.

28th November 2012, 10:52 AM	#59
Nessie Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: At the bottom of a dark Scottish loch. Posts: 4,774	This appears likely to be another entry on my spurious reasons people have claimed self defence and killed. But as yet there is not yet enough information to be certain of that.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

28th November 2012, 10:58 AM	#60
anglolawyer Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: surrey, england Posts: 3,197	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger A kid was fatally shot. I doubt the car was searched "the next day". And there would have likely been witnesses around who would have seen someone take a shotgun away from the scene. Plus - just what would be the point of a search the next day? The lawyer is accusing the cops of not carrying out a thorough search (not a late one). Good luck with that.

28th November 2012, 11:07 AM	#61
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,304	Originally Posted by FenerFan Good point about loading the weapon. One thing about Dunn I want to add. He is the owner of a software company. Not to stereotype, but I would think that, generally, software developers are not typically gung-ho, stick out your chest, " better not say nothin' to me" types. I am wondering how much effect, if any, alcohol was on the situation. He was returning from his son's wedding and it would not be unusual for drinking to occur at such an event. (Too bad for the son,huh, the wedding anniversaries are going to be a little awkward for a while.) Wanted to add this from another Jacksonville station. http://www.actionnewsjax.com/content...qwaOt9_QQ.cspx Interesting to me is this quote from his lawyer, ""They were blasting some rap music and he said, he rolled down his window, he pulled up on the passenger side, and rolled down his window and said, would you mind turning that down? And said it very politely." Okay, the music is really loud, why roll down your window and say something? Just let it go. If you are at a gas station for a couple of minutes who gives a damn. In another link I posted, his lawyer said that Dunn left after the shooting because he was scared. She made a comment about Dunn being in a city he didn't know. Jacksonville is a very large city and does have some dangerous, high crime areas. If you are unsure about the type of area you are in, why the hell would you roll down your window and make a comment, polite or not, to black male youths sitting in an SUV listening to really loud rap music. His lawyer needs to shut up because she is doing him no favors. Looking at the shooting location (Baymeadows Rd. and Southside Blvd. in Jacksonville) on satellite it isn't hard to tell that this ain't the hood. I don't know Jacksonville well, but it looks like a very nice area. Lots of homes with pools and big yards. Relevant? When I was in FL, Baymeadows & South Side was known as an area where crips hung out, but they were known false flaggers. ETA: False flagger = wannabe.
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,304	__________________ AVENGERS!!!.. Turn off the dark! Last edited by Redtail; 28th November 2012 at 11:10 AM.

28th November 2012, 11:14 AM	#62
FenerFan Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Istanbul...again Posts: 1,590	Originally Posted by Neutiquam Erro My experience differs. Not universally, but I've worked with software developers my whole career, and Bluster is not an uncommon attribute. Also, this guy: http://imageshack.us/a/img838/9379/mcafeeg.jpg I stand corrected. Thinking about it more, as the head of his own company he probably does have some degree of bluster, at least professionally.
	__________________ From there to here From here to there Funny things are everywhere - Dr. Seuss Everything that can happen, does. - Garrett Lisi

28th November 2012, 11:54 AM	#63
Virus Master Templar Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 6,193	Did these guys look like the sons Obama never had? Will there be a march of lefties playing loud music?
	__________________ "The folks who proclaim their sensitivity, nuanced thinking, therapeutic concern for the tender sensibilities of others, and open-mindedness have always been the most vicious, bigoted, narrow-minded, crude, dogmatic, conformist people on the planet." - Victor Davis Hanson.

28th November 2012, 12:01 PM	#64
bookworm Muse Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 536	Originally Posted by Virus Did these guys look like the sons Obama never had? Will there be a march of lefties playing loud music? I DID think the kid in the picture kind of looked like Trayvon.......
bookworm Muse Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 536

28th November 2012, 12:33 PM	#65
Neutiquam Erro mennil-toss flykune Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 286	Originally Posted by Virus Did these guys look like the sons Obama never had? Will there be a march of lefties playing loud music? I'll never understand why that remark strikes some people as scandalous.
	__________________ I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, help me, Superman! - H. Simpson ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For centuries, theologians have been explaining the unknowable in terms of the not-worth-knowing. - H. L. Mencken ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'm gonna find me a woman who won't fall apart on the witness stand. - Tommy Womack, "Up Memphis Blues"

28th November 2012, 12:38 PM	#66
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,167	Originally Posted by Ferguson It's not about enjoyment, it's about showing off how loud (and by implication, how expensive) your audio system is. I submit it's bordering on a form of violence. "I'm making this so goddamn loud that you're going to hear it and you don't have any choice in the matter!"
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,167	__________________ "There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Roy Moore of Alabama. The world would absolutely benefit by him being run over by any vehicle." - Lowpro

28th November 2012, 01:11 PM	#67
jbjr Student Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 45	Originally Posted by mikedenk "They told me: "Don't mess with us, we're Crips. In case you were wondering, the Crips are a violent criminal gang, populated primarily by African-Americans like us. And we are definitely full members of that gang, the Crips." Then when they pulled out their guns, I noticed that they had C-R-I-P tattooed across their fingers. Also, their car had a vanity plate, "CRIPS4LIFE". It was very scary." Can you provide a link for that? I haven't heard that anywhere in the news reports and i googled your quote and only saw this thread in the results. The quote seems a little odd (why describe the gang and their affiliation in that way) but it should be pretty easy to verify. The license plate is pretty specific and so is his description of the tattoo.
jbjr Student Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 45

28th November 2012, 01:20 PM	#68
triforcharity Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: The South! Posts: 12,155	Originally Posted by BStrong I don't know anymore about this incident than anybody else that has read the news reports, but from my training and experience there can be individual incidents involving the use of force by a civilian where leaving the scene of a shooting incident and immediately contacting LE may be the best idea from the standpoint of de escalating a situation that has already turned lethal. This incident and the behavior of the shooter as reported doesn't fit into that narrow parameter. I agree. If the situation was still very volatile, I would also leave, but I would be on the phone with 911 as I left the parking lot, or very soon thereafter. The whole situation doesn't pass my smell test.
	__________________ "The horse has been led to the water, the horse is in fact standing up to its knees in the water, but the horse is telling you in a loud voice that there's no water to be had....he's still so very thirsty!" ~alienentity

28th November 2012, 01:27 PM	#69
triforcharity Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: The South! Posts: 12,155	Originally Posted by Aepervius {my snipp} And 8 to 9 shots. Woot. How long does it takes to shoot so many ? Did he have a semi automatic ? I would assume he had a semi-automatic. There are some revolvers that hold that many, but they're not common for self defense purposes, due to their size and weight. And 8-9 shots can be very quick. I have a 9mm Sig with a 12 round magazine, and I can empty it in 5-6 seconds.
	__________________ "The horse has been led to the water, the horse is in fact standing up to its knees in the water, but the horse is telling you in a loud voice that there's no water to be had....he's still so very thirsty!" ~alienentity

28th November 2012, 01:27 PM	#70
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,819	Originally Posted by Virus Did these guys look like the sons Obama never had? Will there be a march of lefties playing loud music? Yeah, stupid lefties and their misplaced compassion and outrage. When will they get it through their stupid leftie skulls that in a free country sometimes black children are murdered by racist idiots? It's just the price of doing business.
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28th November 2012, 01:28 PM	#71
triforcharity Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: The South! Posts: 12,155	Originally Posted by aggle-rithm At which time they will unfortunately have to turn up the volume even more. Huh? Couldn't hear you.....
	__________________ "The horse has been led to the water, the horse is in fact standing up to its knees in the water, but the horse is telling you in a loud voice that there's no water to be had....he's still so very thirsty!" ~alienentity

28th November 2012, 01:34 PM	#72
triforcharity Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: The South! Posts: 12,155	Originally Posted by anglolawyer Watched that. Interesting. Mind-boggling to a Brit, actually. Basically everything goes pretty quiet here until trial, which is kinda frustrating but probably for the best. Did you notice the part where it turns out he got his gun out of the glove box? The guest prosecutor on the three-way chat at the end says he not only got his gun out but also loaded it. Not sure where he got the last part from, might have to listen again, but it seems hardly consistent with being in fear from someone waving a shotgun that you would have the time to retrieve your weapon from the glove box and load it. Surely the thing to do is duck below the window and gun it (i.e. the motor) taking out half the gas station (or whatever it was) and smashing head-on into a lamp post. That's what I would do anyway. I'm not sure how well versed in firearms you are, but I can take a completely unloaded weapon, and a full magazine, and load it in under 1.5 seconds, for most weapons. Most handguns have what's called a "slide lock" or a "lock back" that will lock the slide back on the weapon, and once you've locked the magazine in place, all it takes is a pull of a lever and it's loaded and cocked, ready to fire that round. But, I don't know what steps he had to go through to load his weapon, as I don't have that info.
	__________________ "The horse has been led to the water, the horse is in fact standing up to its knees in the water, but the horse is telling you in a loud voice that there's no water to be had....he's still so very thirsty!" ~alienentity

28th November 2012, 01:35 PM	#73
Yeggster Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2009 Location: Orillia, Ontario, Canada Posts: 460	Originally Posted by Aepervius ...... And 8 to 9 shots. Woot. How long does it takes to shoot so many ? Did he have a semi automatic ? The world record for 8 shots is one second (yes 1 single second)
	__________________ "Yeah. Surprise,surprise! Brains instead of Bombs." :Gulliver Foyle

28th November 2012, 01:37 PM	#74
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	Sounds to me like he wanted to give the gang members a taste of their own medicine and thought he'd get away with it. Even if he fled the scene, he had to know there was a possibility that he had hit someone.
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,625	__________________ “Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain

28th November 2012, 01:40 PM	#75
triforcharity Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: The South! Posts: 12,155	Originally Posted by Nessie This appears likely to be another entry on my spurious reasons people have claimed self defence and killed. But as yet there is not yet enough information to be certain of that. And note that none of the other Americans that have posted in this article, are calling this a justified shooting or anything of the sort.
	__________________ "The horse has been led to the water, the horse is in fact standing up to its knees in the water, but the horse is telling you in a loud voice that there's no water to be had....he's still so very thirsty!" ~alienentity