Public Nudity. - Page 2

Jodie · 28th November 2012, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by The Man

to quote Robert Graves on the subject

Must be why my grandmother had plastic covers on all her upholstered furniture!!!

Along that line, wouldn't most of the sanitary and protective augments be covered (pun intended) by materials not necessarily visually occlusive?

I'm visualizing a saran wrap diaper or loin cloth with perspiration fogging up the film because it doesn't breath. Oh the fungal infections that would result from that get up!! But it would keep the germs off the furniture.

Jodie · 28th November 2012, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by MontagK505

Sitting down on a public park bench while nude would carry a greater risk of infection. Public nudity as such should not be criminalized, only when it becomes a public danger or some form of harassment should it be illegal. Being forced to rub against clothed people while traveling on crowded public transportation as bad enough.

I agree whole heartedly on this, the thought is nauseating.

Aridas · 28th November 2012, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by derchin

What's your take? Should it be legalized or not?

As the arguments you presented seem to have been demolished repeatedly... I'll simply say that I am fully in favor of legalization. Very much against having it be required. Clothes are very useful tools for many reasons. Cleanliness while nude and using public resources... that's a slightly different issue. Of course, I would tend to compare that more to dog owners cleaning up after their pets or not than nudity.

The Man · 28th November 2012, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Yes, but these sometimes don't fit the sanitary condition and never fit the protective condition.

Just like the uncomfortable objection before, other concealing fabrics can be of little sanitary or protective use but might be worn for simply the need of that concealing aspect.

Originally Posted by Checkmite

No, because of the trapping moisture part.

Which wouldn't be worse in the hotter whether?

You do know that perforations and vents can help with "the trapping moisture part" just as they do in other less transparent materials that trap moister as well.

Originally Posted by Checkmite

These things capture the heat, dirt, and moisture whilst being worn. Anyone who has ever tried to wear a poncho on a warm summer day is familiar with this effect: the air inside gets hot and sticky, and the inner surface becomes wet with condensation and sweat (which carries dirt and oils from the skin and smears them on the inside of the poncho). Now imagine a perfectly clear poncho: all the sweat and dirt and condensation is visible as a translucent coating, except for where your wet, sweaty, hairy skin is pressed directly against the material.

No need to imagine I work in clean room, you should see the salt lines on my shirt after work and while the clean room suits aren't transparent you can still see when sweat has plastered it to someone's skin . So is your complaint just that you don't want to see what you are excreting into your cloths right know.

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Yes but people are able to choose to patronize strip clubs when they want to go to them, and avoid them when they don't want to go to them. Forcing people to have to become reverse-stripping patrons by traveling about in public amounts more to extortion than providing a service.

No one said anything about forcing people to do anything. You can't extort people with something they don't care about and giving people what they want to pay for is providing them a service.

The Man · 28th November 2012, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by Jodie

I'm visualizing a saran wrap diaper or loin cloth with perspiration fogging up the film because it doesn't breath. Oh the fungal infections that would result from that get up!! But it would keep the germs off the furniture.

I'm glad to stimulate your imagination as well as keep the germs (at least some of them) off the furniture.

gumboot · 28th November 2012, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

HA...HA-HAAAA. Hooooo. Wow!

Yup, never happens. Wait, I'm sorry - happens too rarely to care about. Yessir indeedy.

There's no point getting all stressed out about a statistically improbable event. If someone's going to sexually assault you, statistically there's about an 80-90% chance you know them, so focusing efforts on protecting yourself against strangers is totally illogical.

Checkmite · 29th November 2012, 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by The Man

Just like the uncomfortable objection before, other concealing fabrics can be of little sanitary or protective use but might be worn for simply the need of that concealing aspect.

Yes, but at least it does fulfil that aspect. The non-occlusive "garment" would fulfil no purpose at all.

Originally Posted by The Man

Which wouldn't be worse in the hotter whether?

Trapping moisture is just plain bad, either in hot or cold weather. In hot weather, it raises the ambient humidity next to the skin to an uncomfortable level and leads to profuse sweating; in cold weather, the moisture condenses on the fabric and is then chilled by conduction, which then chills the wearer by touch.

Originally Posted by The Man

You do know that perforations and vents can help with "the trapping moisture part" just as they do in other less transparent materials that trap moister as well.

In theory. but those with practical experience know for a fact that "vents" in clothing designed for this purpose are in reality useless gimmicks; the hot, humid air can't actually get out unless fresh air is able to get in from elsewhere to replace it, and the mere existence of openings for this purpose is insufficient - something has to cause the air to start moving - and keep moving - in order for this displacement to occur. Body movement alone doesn't do it; inside-outside temperature difference isn't enough either.

Originally Posted by The Man

No need to imagine I work in clean room, you should see the salt lines on my shirt after work and while the clean room suits aren't transparent you can still see when sweat has plastered it to someone's skin . So is your complaint just that you don't want to see what you are excreting into your cloths right know.

I don't want to see it, I don't want others to see it, and I don't want to see it on others.

In some ways, the "non-occlusive garment" - let's just be honest and call it clear plastic, because that's the only thing we could possibly be referring to - would be even worse than just plain nudity. One of the concerns mentioned above by others - leaving (relatively) invisible or barely-visible smears of possibly disease-contaminated body fluids/substances here and there all over the place - the clear plastic garment might "catch" these, but at the cost of concentrating them in one place and putting them on proud public display. Yeah, it would be nasty. That's the part I was referring to when I said "appetite-affectiing".

Originally Posted by The Man

No one said anything about forcing people to do anything. You can't extort people with something they don't care about and giving people what they want to pay for is providing them a service.

It isn't if your presence is the sole creator of the want. A tire-shop owner throwing tacks into the street near his business is in a like manner "providing a service" when he changes or repairs his victims' tires for a fee. Except they wouldn't need their tires fixed or replaced at all if it weren't for the tacks; and your victims wouldn't be needing you to cover up enough to pay you to do it if you weren't showing up naked in a place where they couldn't avoid having to interact with you.

BenBurch · 29th November 2012, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by The Man

I'm glad to stimulate your imagination as well as keep the germs (at least some of them) off the furniture.

Nudists always carry a towel. Guess why?

Sledge · 29th November 2012, 06:20 AM

Because they're hoopy froods?

dafydd · 29th November 2012, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Nudists always carry a towel. Guess why?

Because they are galactic hitch-hikers?

Polaris · 29th November 2012, 07:16 AM

I don't want to see most people naked. In my experience the ones who like to be naked most are the ones I want to see naked least.

Cainkane1 · 29th November 2012, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by derchin

It was a discussion I had with my class today and some folks on another forum. I was against it for the following reasons I made:

What's your take? Should it be legalized or not?

Primitive peoples do very well walking around naked.

bruto · 29th November 2012, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by Polaris

I don't want to see most people naked. In my experience the ones who like to be naked most are the ones I want to see naked least.

Stretch tights and speedos and halters and muscle shirts, it's all the same. People are people, and the unattractive ones are unattractive whether you see their gonads or not.

Merton · 29th November 2012, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by Polaris

I don't want to see most people naked. In my experience the ones who like to be naked most are the ones I want to see naked least.

It doesn't matter what you want, it matters what is right (ethically), yes?

Zax63 · 29th November 2012, 07:58 AM

How do you draw the line? If it's OK to say you have to cover these 10 square inches then how is it not OK to say you have to wear a Burka?

P.J. Denyer · 29th November 2012, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by Zax63

How do you draw the line? If it's OK to say you have to cover these 10 square inches then how is it not OK to say you have to wear a Burka?

Covering those particular 10 square inches doesn't restrict the kind of normal social interaction that generally occurs in public or prevent identification of an individual in the way that wearing a full face and body covering deliberately designed to entirely hide the person does.

Merton · 29th November 2012, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

Covering those particular 10 square inches doesn't restrict the kind of normal social interaction that generally occurs in public or prevent identification of an individual in the way that wearing a full face and body covering deliberately designed to entirely hide the person does.

Okay, so everything but the face needs to be covered while in public?

Zax63 · 29th November 2012, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

Covering those particular 10 square inches doesn't restrict the kind of normal social interaction or prevent identification of an individual in the way that wearing a full face and body covering deliberately designed to entirely hide the person does.

A very good answer.
So let's pull it back from a burka to requiring that everything but the hands and face be covered.

Merton - beat me to it.

Just as a side note I'm reminded of a Heinlein story from the 1950's were a character returning to Earth after many years was shocked because the women were not wearing hats.

P.J. Denyer · 29th November 2012, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by Merton

Okay, so everything but the face needs to be covered while in public?

No and that's not what I'm saying, but the question asked was specifically about the Burqua which is going to the opposite extreme than the OP is different and these are factors that are particually applicable to that garment.

In any society there is a balance between what the individual may find comfortable, desirable and/or practical and what the wider society finds acceptable but they weren't as applicable to the question.

Merton · 29th November 2012, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

No and that's not what I'm saying, but the question asked was specifically about the Burqua which is going to the opposite extreme than the OP is different and these are factors that are particually applicable to that garment.

Fair enough.

Quote:

In any society there is a balance between what the individual may find comfortable, desirable and/or practical and what the wider society finds acceptable but they weren't as applicable to the question.

Where do you think this balance ought to lie?

P.J. Denyer · 29th November 2012, 09:26 AM

Me personally? I'm pretty much happy for people to wear whatever the hell they like. There's a hygiene argument for minimum coverage of the groin and rectum and I think that coverage of the face is antisocial under most circumstances and can isolate the wearer so personally I'm against that. I have no problem with businesses setting dress codes as they feel is appropriate.

Other than that I think that people should dress as they feel comfortable and as is practical for their situation and activities.

tyr_13 · 29th November 2012, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Nudists always carry a towel. Guess why?

Wouldn't it be easier to tie the towel around your waist rather than have to carry it? Oh wait, then it's clothing. And that's bad because...

I personally don't have a problem with 'optimists'. They have a camp near here. I just find a lot of the arguments for nudity to be spacious. Clothing is practical almost all of the time regardless of social pressures. So I tend to wear clothing. Sometimes it's less than people would like...

alfaniner · 29th November 2012, 10:23 AM

At the beach or a swimming pool, ok.

At someplace like Starbuck's, not so much.

BenBurch · 29th November 2012, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Sledge

Because they're hoopy froods?

They are indeed!

And because they are, they always put their towel between their nether regions and anything they sit on.

It's for everybody's protection.

BenBurch · 29th November 2012, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

Covering those particular 10 square inches doesn't restrict the kind of normal social interaction that generally occurs in public ...

Speak for yourself!

Dogdoctor · 29th November 2012, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

Primitive peoples do very well walking around naked.

Primitive people live is groups where everyone knows everyone else. They know if there are any child molesters or rapists and can take actions to keep themselves safe. But in larger societies you don't know everyone and it presents more risk.

schplurg · 29th November 2012, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Jodie

They would ask me to put my clothes back on. I don't prefer nudity indoors because I do not want e-coli on my upholstered furniture.

Take a shower. Use a bidet. Gross

Sledge · 29th November 2012, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by schplurg

Take a shower. Use a bidet. Gross

Oh, so it's fine to insist we all be fine with people wandering around with the tackle out, but the second someone doesn't agree with your idea of how often to wash said tackle you're ok with issuing orders. Hypocritical bigot.

bruto · 29th November 2012, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

Covering those particular 10 square inches doesn't restrict the kind of normal social interaction that generally occurs in public or prevent identification of an individual in the way that wearing a full face and body covering deliberately designed to entirely hide the person does.

That's fine, so tell me why women should not all be compelled to wear pink hats.

SoBitter · 29th November 2012, 03:30 PM

I don't like the fact that we mandate wearing clothes, especially in the summer months. In Columbus, Ohio, it is legal to go without shirts whether you are male or female, but females rarely do so, except at one particular festival. I don't really want to see most people's naked bodies, but I don't really want to see their bodies in clothes that are too small for their size either. I generally just don't like a lot of people, so whether they have on clothes or not makes no difference.

I would like to be able to walk around the house naked with the windows open and not worry about the neighbors being offended. I do walk around half naked a lot and usually cover my top with my arm when facing a window without blinds. I feel that is unnecessary though. I only do it because I'm worried I will offend some mom whose 10 year old son happened to be walking by.

If legal, I would probably not go nude, but I wouldn't wear many clothes in the summer, and I surely wouldn't care whether certain things could be seen through the clothes.

There are few practical arguments for clothing. Sure, I don't really trust someone else to wipe properly, so sitting on a common seat would be iffy. But I would just carry something I always sat on, kind of like exotic dancers in Canada do. I already use public toilets, and that is just as scary. I touch handles that everyone else touches and drink out of questionable glasses at bars and restaurants.

I feel that forced covering of certain parts is just a convention. similar to swear words. It's a moral convention, not practical. I'm not offended by the way someone naturally looks. I don't ask people to cover their ugly haircuts or dye jobs, so why should I ask people to be uncomfortable wearing clothing if they don't want to?

Skeptical Greg · 29th November 2012, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

They are indeed!

And because they are, they always put their towel between their nether regions and anything they sit on.

..

I'm sure the towels are color coded so they always put the same side down ..

P.J. Denyer · 30th November 2012, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by bruto

That's fine, so tell me why women should not all be compelled to wear pink hats.

Tell me why they should? Personally I think individual freedom should be paramount so far as it does not impinge on the rights of others. The question that the answer you quoted was to was not about what should be done but what was different about two situations.

This is the third question along these lines I've been asked and I feel like I'm being assumed to hold a position that I don't here. I was addressing a single specific question about why (as I interpreted it) legally enforcing certain (fairly universal) minimum clothing requirements was at heart different to enforcing a particularly extreme example. Since compulsion and social expectations could be applied to both I tried to think of some examples specific to the question I was asked, it was not an exhaustive list and was not intended to be.

BenBurch · 30th November 2012, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

I'm sure the towels are color coded so they always put the same side down ..

Actually most do have towels that have a "top" side.

Like printed beach towels.

The Man · 30th November 2012, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Yes, but at least it does fulfil that aspect. The non-occlusive "garment" would fulfil no purpose at all.

People often sacrifice sanitary and protective effectiveness of garments for comfort and appearance. The non-occlusive "garment" would be no different.

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Trapping moisture is just plain bad, either in hot or cold weather. In hot weather, it raises the ambient humidity next to the skin to an uncomfortable level and leads to profuse sweating; in cold weather, the moisture condenses on the fabric and is then chilled by conduction, which then chills the wearer by touch.

In theory. but those with practical experience know for a fact that "vents" in clothing designed for this purpose are in reality useless gimmicks; the hot, humid air can't actually get out unless fresh air is able to get in from elsewhere to replace it, and the mere existence of openings for this purpose is insufficient - something has to cause the air to start moving - and keep moving - in order for this displacement to occur. Body movement alone doesn't do it; inside-outside temperature difference isn't enough either.

I don't want to see it, I don't want others to see it, and I don't want to see it on others.

In some ways, the "non-occlusive garment" - let's just be honest and call it clear plastic, because that's the only thing we could possibly be referring to - would be even worse than just plain nudity. One of the concerns mentioned above by others - leaving (relatively) invisible or barely-visible smears of possibly disease-contaminated body fluids/substances here and there all over the place - the clear plastic garment might "catch" these, but at the cost of concentrating them in one place and putting them on proud public display. Yeah, it would be nasty. That's the part I was referring to when I said "appetite-affectiing".

Let's cut to the chase. It basically comes down to protection. The sanitary concern of clothing being just one aspect of that. Protecting one from the contaminants in some environment or (as in the case of the clean room) protecting a clean environment from the contaminates that come from and off us all the time. Protection has costs, uncomfortably being one of them and trapping moisture being a particular one in various cases of protective equipment. Anyone who wears personal protective equipment on a regular basis can tell you this. Again people regularly sacrifice those various aspects of protection to one degree or the other for other aspects like comfort and appearance. As far as plastic goes, clear or not, it helps keep the outside contaminates off you and your contaminates out of the surrounding environment, as well as preventing some abrasive contacts. Which is why it is often used in personal protective equipment, so it is specifically better than nude for the very aspects remarked for which it is currently widely used.

Your compliant still just comes down to that you just don't what to see it. A fair compliant as far as I'm concerned and there is no need to try to make it out to be anything more than just that.

Originally Posted by Checkmite

It isn't if your presence is the sole creator of the want. A tire-shop owner throwing tacks into the street near his business is in a like manner "providing a service" when he changes or repairs his victims' tires for a fee. Except they wouldn't need their tires fixed or replaced at all if it weren't for the tacks; and your victims wouldn't be needing you to cover up enough to pay you to do it if you weren't showing up naked in a place where they couldn't avoid having to interact with you.

They wouldn't have to interact with me, heck, they wouldn't even have to take notice of me and in your "tack" analogy the tire-shop owner is deliberately damaging property making it a poor analogy.

The Man · 30th November 2012, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Nudists always carry a towel. Guess why?

For snap'n each other in the arse, of course.

BenBurch · 30th November 2012, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by The Man

For snap'n each other in the arse, of course.

That too!

Skeptical Greg · 30th November 2012, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Actually most do have towels that have a "top" side.

Like printed beach towels.

And we can count on them to do the right thing ?

Really, I guess I should have used the sarcastic motie....

bruto · 30th November 2012, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

Tell me why they should? Personally I think individual freedom should be paramount so far as it does not impinge on the rights of others. The question that the answer you quoted was to was not about what should be done but what was different about two situations.

This is the third question along these lines I've been asked and I feel like I'm being assumed to hold a position that I don't here. I was addressing a single specific question about why (as I interpreted it) legally enforcing certain (fairly universal) minimum clothing requirements was at heart different to enforcing a particularly extreme example. Since compulsion and social expectations could be applied to both I tried to think of some examples specific to the question I was asked, it was not an exhaustive list and was not intended to be.

Maybe your problem was in expression. You excluded the burka because it would "restrict the kind of normal social interaction that generally occurs in public or prevent identification of an individual..." and if that's the criterion, then you have not gone far to explain a silly clothing code that meets it. Of course we can always argue different sides of the slippery slope here, that minimal requirements make sense but on the other hand, the minima are arguable. My point is that we have actual long standing examples of places in which dress codes do not exist, and we could just look at how they work instead of arguing abstracts. You can walk around naked in Vermont, but most of us have figured out how we would prefer to appear in public, and do so without incident.

Turgor · 30th November 2012, 11:38 AM

The hands and face are where you can find the highest concentration of microorganisms on most humans. The bottom is much cleaner. So your couches are much safer from germs when a nude person sits on them than when you rearrange the pillows.

But that may be due to us wearing pants more often than gloves and full face masks.

Skeptical Greg · 30th November 2012, 12:24 PM

I don't think the surface of the buttocks is really the concern here.. Think " seepage " ...

28th November 2012, 08:07 PM	#41
Jodie Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,909	Originally Posted by The Man to quote Robert Graves on the subject Must be why my grandmother had plastic covers on all her upholstered furniture!!! Along that line, wouldn't most of the sanitary and protective augments be covered (pun intended) by materials not necessarily visually occlusive? I'm visualizing a saran wrap diaper or loin cloth with perspiration fogging up the film because it doesn't breath. Oh the fungal infections that would result from that get up!! But it would keep the germs off the furniture.
Jodie Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,909	__________________ testis unus, testis nullus quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

28th November 2012, 08:14 PM	#42
Jodie Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,909	Originally Posted by MontagK505 Sitting down on a public park bench while nude would carry a greater risk of infection. Public nudity as such should not be criminalized, only when it becomes a public danger or some form of harassment should it be illegal. Being forced to rub against clothed people while traveling on crowded public transportation as bad enough. I agree whole heartedly on this, the thought is nauseating.
Jodie Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,909	__________________ testis unus, testis nullus quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

28th November 2012, 08:37 PM	#43
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,107	Originally Posted by derchin What's your take? Should it be legalized or not? As the arguments you presented seem to have been demolished repeatedly... I'll simply say that I am fully in favor of legalization. Very much against having it be required. Clothes are very useful tools for many reasons. Cleanliness while nude and using public resources... that's a slightly different issue. Of course, I would tend to compare that more to dog owners cleaning up after their pets or not than nudity.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon. Last edited by Aridas; 28th November 2012 at 08:41 PM.

28th November 2012, 09:19 PM	#44
The Man Scourge, of the supernatural Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY Posts: 7,525	Originally Posted by Checkmite Yes, but these sometimes don't fit the sanitary condition and never fit the protective condition. Just like the uncomfortable objection before, other concealing fabrics can be of little sanitary or protective use but might be worn for simply the need of that concealing aspect. Originally Posted by Checkmite No, because of the trapping moisture part. Which wouldn't be worse in the hotter whether? You do know that perforations and vents can help with "the trapping moisture part" just as they do in other less transparent materials that trap moister as well. Originally Posted by Checkmite These things capture the heat, dirt, and moisture whilst being worn. Anyone who has ever tried to wear a poncho on a warm summer day is familiar with this effect: the air inside gets hot and sticky, and the inner surface becomes wet with condensation and sweat (which carries dirt and oils from the skin and smears them on the inside of the poncho). Now imagine a perfectly clear poncho: all the sweat and dirt and condensation is visible as a translucent coating, except for where your wet, sweaty, hairy skin is pressed directly against the material. No need to imagine I work in clean room, you should see the salt lines on my shirt after work and while the clean room suits aren't transparent you can still see when sweat has plastered it to someone's skin . So is your complaint just that you don't want to see what you are excreting into your cloths right know. Originally Posted by Checkmite Yes but people are able to choose to patronize strip clubs when they want to go to them, and avoid them when they don't want to go to them. Forcing people to have to become reverse-stripping patrons by traveling about in public amounts more to extortion than providing a service. No one said anything about forcing people to do anything. You can't extort people with something they don't care about and giving people what they want to pay for is providing them a service.
	__________________ "Not a seat but a springboard” (1942 Winston Churchill) "As he who, seeking asses, found a kingdom" (1671 Milton "Paradise Regained") "for it seem'd A void was made in nature, all her bonds Crack'd; and I saw the flaring atom-streams And torrents of her myriad universe, Ruining along the illimitable inane, Fly on to clash together again, and make Another and another frame of things For ever." (1868 Tennyson "Lucretius")

28th November 2012, 09:27 PM	#45
The Man Scourge, of the supernatural Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY Posts: 7,525	Originally Posted by Jodie I'm visualizing a saran wrap diaper or loin cloth with perspiration fogging up the film because it doesn't breath. Oh the fungal infections that would result from that get up!! But it would keep the germs off the furniture. I'm glad to stimulate your imagination as well as keep the germs (at least some of them) off the furniture.
	__________________ "Not a seat but a springboard” (1942 Winston Churchill) "As he who, seeking asses, found a kingdom" (1671 Milton "Paradise Regained") "for it seem'd A void was made in nature, all her bonds Crack'd; and I saw the flaring atom-streams And torrents of her myriad universe, Ruining along the illimitable inane, Fly on to clash together again, and make Another and another frame of things For ever." (1868 Tennyson "Lucretius")

28th November 2012, 09:46 PM	#46
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,127	Originally Posted by Checkmite HA...HA-HAAAA. Hooooo. Wow! Yup, never happens. Wait, I'm sorry - happens too rarely to care about. Yessir indeedy. There's no point getting all stressed out about a statistically improbable event. If someone's going to sexually assault you, statistically there's about an 80-90% chance you know them, so focusing efforts on protecting yourself against strangers is totally illogical.
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

29th November 2012, 05:53 AM	#47
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,892	Originally Posted by The Man Just like the uncomfortable objection before, other concealing fabrics can be of little sanitary or protective use but might be worn for simply the need of that concealing aspect. Yes, but at least it does fulfil that aspect. The non-occlusive "garment" would fulfil no purpose at all. Originally Posted by The Man Which wouldn't be worse in the hotter whether? Trapping moisture is just plain bad, either in hot or cold weather. In hot weather, it raises the ambient humidity next to the skin to an uncomfortable level and leads to profuse sweating; in cold weather, the moisture condenses on the fabric and is then chilled by conduction, which then chills the wearer by touch. Originally Posted by The Man You do know that perforations and vents can help with "the trapping moisture part" just as they do in other less transparent materials that trap moister as well. In theory. but those with practical experience know for a fact that "vents" in clothing designed for this purpose are in reality useless gimmicks; the hot, humid air can't actually get out unless fresh air is able to get in from elsewhere to replace it, and the mere existence of openings for this purpose is insufficient - something has to cause the air to start moving - and keep moving - in order for this displacement to occur. Body movement alone doesn't do it; inside-outside temperature difference isn't enough either. Originally Posted by The Man No need to imagine I work in clean room, you should see the salt lines on my shirt after work and while the clean room suits aren't transparent you can still see when sweat has plastered it to someone's skin . So is your complaint just that you don't want to see what you are excreting into your cloths right know. I don't want to see it, I don't want others to see it, and I don't want to see it on others. In some ways, the "non-occlusive garment" - let's just be honest and call it clear plastic, because that's the only thing we could possibly be referring to - would be even worse than just plain nudity. One of the concerns mentioned above by others - leaving (relatively) invisible or barely-visible smears of possibly disease-contaminated body fluids/substances here and there all over the place - the clear plastic garment might "catch" these, but at the cost of concentrating them in one place and putting them on proud public display. Yeah, it would be nasty. That's the part I was referring to when I said "appetite-affectiing". Originally Posted by The Man No one said anything about forcing people to do anything. You can't extort people with something they don't care about and giving people what they want to pay for is providing them a service. It isn't if your presence is the sole creator of the want. A tire-shop owner throwing tacks into the street near his business is in a like manner "providing a service" when he changes or repairs his victims' tires for a fee. Except they wouldn't need their tires fixed or replaced at all if it weren't for the tacks; and your victims wouldn't be needing you to cover up enough to pay you to do it if you weren't showing up naked in a place where they couldn't avoid having to interact with you.

29th November 2012, 06:03 AM	#48
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,193	Originally Posted by The Man I'm glad to stimulate your imagination as well as keep the germs (at least some of them) off the furniture. Nudists always carry a towel. Guess why?
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29th November 2012, 06:20 AM	#49
Sledge Grammaton Cleric Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Swingin' on a star Posts: 7,123	Because they're hoopy froods?
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29th November 2012, 06:52 AM	#50
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	Originally Posted by BenBurch Nudists always carry a towel. Guess why? Because they are galactic hitch-hikers?
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29th November 2012, 07:16 AM	#51
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,170	I don't want to see most people naked. In my experience the ones who like to be naked most are the ones I want to see naked least.
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,170	__________________ "There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Roy Moore of Alabama. The world would absolutely benefit by him being run over by any vehicle." - Lowpro

29th November 2012, 07:20 AM	#52
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,198	Originally Posted by derchin It was a discussion I had with my class today and some folks on another forum. I was against it for the following reasons I made: What's your take? Should it be legalized or not? Primitive peoples do very well walking around naked.
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29th November 2012, 07:33 AM	#53
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 11,191	Originally Posted by Polaris I don't want to see most people naked. In my experience the ones who like to be naked most are the ones I want to see naked least. Stretch tights and speedos and halters and muscle shirts, it's all the same. People are people, and the unattractive ones are unattractive whether you see their gonads or not.
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29th November 2012, 07:34 AM	#54
Merton Muse Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Montana, USA Posts: 576	Originally Posted by Polaris I don't want to see most people naked. In my experience the ones who like to be naked most are the ones I want to see naked least. It doesn't matter what you want, it matters what is right (ethically), yes?
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29th November 2012, 07:58 AM	#55
Zax63 Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,667	How do you draw the line? If it's OK to say you have to cover these 10 square inches then how is it not OK to say you have to wear a Burka?

29th November 2012, 08:27 AM	#56
P.J. Denyer Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,141	Originally Posted by Zax63 How do you draw the line? If it's OK to say you have to cover these 10 square inches then how is it not OK to say you have to wear a Burka? Covering those particular 10 square inches doesn't restrict the kind of normal social interaction that generally occurs in public or prevent identification of an individual in the way that wearing a full face and body covering deliberately designed to entirely hide the person does.
	Last edited by P.J. Denyer; 29th November 2012 at 08:28 AM. Reason: missed a bit

29th November 2012, 08:30 AM	#57
Merton Muse Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Montana, USA Posts: 576	Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer Covering those particular 10 square inches doesn't restrict the kind of normal social interaction that generally occurs in public or prevent identification of an individual in the way that wearing a full face and body covering deliberately designed to entirely hide the person does. Okay, so everything but the face needs to be covered while in public?
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29th November 2012, 08:40 AM	#58
Zax63 Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,667	Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer Covering those particular 10 square inches doesn't restrict the kind of normal social interaction or prevent identification of an individual in the way that wearing a full face and body covering deliberately designed to entirely hide the person does. A very good answer. So let's pull it back from a burka to requiring that everything but the hands and face be covered. Merton - beat me to it. Just as a side note I'm reminded of a Heinlein story from the 1950's were a character returning to Earth after many years was shocked because the women were not wearing hats.

29th November 2012, 08:49 AM	#59
P.J. Denyer Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,141	Originally Posted by Merton Okay, so everything but the face needs to be covered while in public? No and that's not what I'm saying, but the question asked was specifically about the Burqua which is going to the opposite extreme than the OP is different and these are factors that are particually applicable to that garment. In any society there is a balance between what the individual may find comfortable, desirable and/or practical and what the wider society finds acceptable but they weren't as applicable to the question.

29th November 2012, 09:11 AM	#60
Merton Muse Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Montana, USA Posts: 576	Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer No and that's not what I'm saying, but the question asked was specifically about the Burqua which is going to the opposite extreme than the OP is different and these are factors that are particually applicable to that garment. Fair enough. Quote: In any society there is a balance between what the individual may find comfortable, desirable and/or practical and what the wider society finds acceptable but they weren't as applicable to the question. Where do you think this balance ought to lie?
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29th November 2012, 09:26 AM	#61
P.J. Denyer Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,141	Me personally? I'm pretty much happy for people to wear whatever the hell they like. There's a hygiene argument for minimum coverage of the groin and rectum and I think that coverage of the face is antisocial under most circumstances and can isolate the wearer so personally I'm against that. I have no problem with businesses setting dress codes as they feel is appropriate. Other than that I think that people should dress as they feel comfortable and as is practical for their situation and activities.

29th November 2012, 09:43 AM	#62
tyr_13 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Falconer, NY Posts: 9,674	Originally Posted by BenBurch Nudists always carry a towel. Guess why? Wouldn't it be easier to tie the towel around your waist rather than have to carry it? Oh wait, then it's clothing. And that's bad because... I personally don't have a problem with 'optimists'. They have a camp near here. I just find a lot of the arguments for nudity to be spacious. Clothing is practical almost all of the time regardless of social pressures. So I tend to wear clothing. Sometimes it's less than people would like...
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29th November 2012, 10:23 AM	#63
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 11,392	At the beach or a swimming pool, ok. At someplace like Starbuck's, not so much.
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29th November 2012, 10:26 AM	#64
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,193	Originally Posted by Sledge Because they're hoopy froods? They are indeed! And because they are, they always put their towel between their nether regions and anything they sit on. It's for everybody's protection.
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29th November 2012, 10:27 AM	#65
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,193	Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer Covering those particular 10 square inches doesn't restrict the kind of normal social interaction that generally occurs in public ... Speak for yourself!
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29th November 2012, 10:45 AM	#66
Dogdoctor Canis Doctorius Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Pacific Ocean Posts: 14,289	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 Primitive peoples do very well walking around naked. Primitive people live is groups where everyone knows everyone else. They know if there are any child molesters or rapists and can take actions to keep themselves safe. But in larger societies you don't know everyone and it presents more risk.
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29th November 2012, 02:09 PM	#67
schplurg Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 924	Originally Posted by Jodie They would ask me to put my clothes back on. I don't prefer nudity indoors because I do not want e-coli on my upholstered furniture. Take a shower. Use a bidet. Gross
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29th November 2012, 02:16 PM	#68
Sledge Grammaton Cleric Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Swingin' on a star Posts: 7,123	Originally Posted by schplurg Take a shower. Use a bidet. Gross Oh, so it's fine to insist we all be fine with people wandering around with the tackle out, but the second someone doesn't agree with your idea of how often to wash said tackle you're ok with issuing orders. Hypocritical bigot.
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29th November 2012, 03:02 PM	#69
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 11,191	Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer Covering those particular 10 square inches doesn't restrict the kind of normal social interaction that generally occurs in public or prevent identification of an individual in the way that wearing a full face and body covering deliberately designed to entirely hide the person does. That's fine, so tell me why women should not all be compelled to wear pink hats.
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29th November 2012, 03:30 PM	#70
SoBitter Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 307	I don't like the fact that we mandate wearing clothes, especially in the summer months. In Columbus, Ohio, it is legal to go without shirts whether you are male or female, but females rarely do so, except at one particular festival. I don't really want to see most people's naked bodies, but I don't really want to see their bodies in clothes that are too small for their size either. I generally just don't like a lot of people, so whether they have on clothes or not makes no difference. I would like to be able to walk around the house naked with the windows open and not worry about the neighbors being offended. I do walk around half naked a lot and usually cover my top with my arm when facing a window without blinds. I feel that is unnecessary though. I only do it because I'm worried I will offend some mom whose 10 year old son happened to be walking by. If legal, I would probably not go nude, but I wouldn't wear many clothes in the summer, and I surely wouldn't care whether certain things could be seen through the clothes. There are few practical arguments for clothing. Sure, I don't really trust someone else to wipe properly, so sitting on a common seat would be iffy. But I would just carry something I always sat on, kind of like exotic dancers in Canada do. I already use public toilets, and that is just as scary. I touch handles that everyone else touches and drink out of questionable glasses at bars and restaurants. I feel that forced covering of certain parts is just a convention. similar to swear words. It's a moral convention, not practical. I'm not offended by the way someone naturally looks. I don't ask people to cover their ugly haircuts or dye jobs, so why should I ask people to be uncomfortable wearing clothing if they don't want to?
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29th November 2012, 03:30 PM	#71
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past 'Resume Speed' Posts: 12,873	Originally Posted by BenBurch They are indeed! And because they are, they always put their towel between their nether regions and anything they sit on. .. I'm sure the towels are color coded so they always put the same side down ..
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30th November 2012, 06:34 AM	#72
P.J. Denyer Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,141	Originally Posted by bruto That's fine, so tell me why women should not all be compelled to wear pink hats. Tell me why they should? Personally I think individual freedom should be paramount so far as it does not impinge on the rights of others. The question that the answer you quoted was to was not about what should be done but what was different about two situations. This is the third question along these lines I've been asked and I feel like I'm being assumed to hold a position that I don't here. I was addressing a single specific question about why (as I interpreted it) legally enforcing certain (fairly universal) minimum clothing requirements was at heart different to enforcing a particularly extreme example. Since compulsion and social expectations could be applied to both I tried to think of some examples specific to the question I was asked, it was not an exhaustive list and was not intended to be.

30th November 2012, 07:45 AM	#73
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,193	Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg I'm sure the towels are color coded so they always put the same side down .. Actually most do have towels that have a "top" side. Like printed beach towels.
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30th November 2012, 08:38 AM	#74
The Man Scourge, of the supernatural Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY Posts: 7,525	Originally Posted by Checkmite Yes, but at least it does fulfil that aspect. The non-occlusive "garment" would fulfil no purpose at all. People often sacrifice sanitary and protective effectiveness of garments for comfort and appearance. The non-occlusive "garment" would be no different. Originally Posted by Checkmite Trapping moisture is just plain bad, either in hot or cold weather. In hot weather, it raises the ambient humidity next to the skin to an uncomfortable level and leads to profuse sweating; in cold weather, the moisture condenses on the fabric and is then chilled by conduction, which then chills the wearer by touch. In theory. but those with practical experience know for a fact that "vents" in clothing designed for this purpose are in reality useless gimmicks; the hot, humid air can't actually get out unless fresh air is able to get in from elsewhere to replace it, and the mere existence of openings for this purpose is insufficient - something has to cause the air to start moving - and keep moving - in order for this displacement to occur. Body movement alone doesn't do it; inside-outside temperature difference isn't enough either. I don't want to see it, I don't want others to see it, and I don't want to see it on others. In some ways, the "non-occlusive garment" - let's just be honest and call it clear plastic, because that's the only thing we could possibly be referring to - would be even worse than just plain nudity. One of the concerns mentioned above by others - leaving (relatively) invisible or barely-visible smears of possibly disease-contaminated body fluids/substances here and there all over the place - the clear plastic garment might "catch" these, but at the cost of concentrating them in one place and putting them on proud public display. Yeah, it would be nasty. That's the part I was referring to when I said "appetite-affectiing". Let's cut to the chase. It basically comes down to protection. The sanitary concern of clothing being just one aspect of that. Protecting one from the contaminants in some environment or (as in the case of the clean room) protecting a clean environment from the contaminates that come from and off us all the time. Protection has costs, uncomfortably being one of them and trapping moisture being a particular one in various cases of protective equipment. Anyone who wears personal protective equipment on a regular basis can tell you this. Again people regularly sacrifice those various aspects of protection to one degree or the other for other aspects like comfort and appearance. As far as plastic goes, clear or not, it helps keep the outside contaminates off you and your contaminates out of the surrounding environment, as well as preventing some abrasive contacts. Which is why it is often used in personal protective equipment, so it is specifically better than nude for the very aspects remarked for which it is currently widely used. Your compliant still just comes down to that you just don't what to see it. A fair compliant as far as I'm concerned and there is no need to try to make it out to be anything more than just that. Originally Posted by Checkmite It isn't if your presence is the sole creator of the want. A tire-shop owner throwing tacks into the street near his business is in a like manner "providing a service" when he changes or repairs his victims' tires for a fee. Except they wouldn't need their tires fixed or replaced at all if it weren't for the tacks; and your victims wouldn't be needing you to cover up enough to pay you to do it if you weren't showing up naked in a place where they couldn't avoid having to interact with you. They wouldn't have to interact with me, heck, they wouldn't even have to take notice of me and in your "tack" analogy the tire-shop owner is deliberately damaging property making it a poor analogy.
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30th November 2012, 08:43 AM	#75
The Man Scourge, of the supernatural Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY Posts: 7,525	Originally Posted by BenBurch Nudists always carry a towel. Guess why? For snap'n each other in the arse, of course.
	__________________ "Not a seat but a springboard” (1942 Winston Churchill) "As he who, seeking asses, found a kingdom" (1671 Milton "Paradise Regained") "for it seem'd A void was made in nature, all her bonds Crack'd; and I saw the flaring atom-streams And torrents of her myriad universe, Ruining along the illimitable inane, Fly on to clash together again, and make Another and another frame of things For ever." (1868 Tennyson "Lucretius")